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Ecoboost PCV issues

Started by Tuner Boost, February 23, 2014, 05:25:16 PM

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BiGMaC

#75
I too am in a holding pattern as far as install of the RX catch can and Cleanside waiting on the new mounting bracket.  The 2011 Article that ShoBoat posted is very interesting where it speaks of Ford's public dismantling of the 3.5EB GDI engine and the stories of improvement.... If you haven't read it you should even though it's from 2011.

Like everyone, no matter what facts surface, ultimately I will have a decision to make here.... it's not any company's fault.  We all will decide what to believe individually.

As far as the info from Andy at LMS and recs: I can't just dismiss it.  Those folks are pretty sharp about cars in general and our platform ( this is not an issue to be confused with meth, fuel blending, or T-stats, etc).  This is a separate issue arising out of concern over the DI engine design (everyone's, not just Ford).   The anecdote Andy related could have been faulty install, etc... I have also considered that there might be a lubrication factor for the turbos involved. 

As far as Tracy's explanation:  The design and explanation makes perfect sense, but is not tested in my make and model. The pics are graphic, but truly, again they are not my car nor the same generation of GDI engine.  The only dyno testing of fuel dilution are not on my engine and gains are very small and I wonder if a check valve failure on the RX can could cause the same thing as occurred in the experience related by Andy.

The only real testing won't be done in time to help me.... Run 2 SHOs for 30-50K miles... one with a can and one without.... then tear down both engines and compare.... So decisions must be made on indirect information.

SRT8's point is VERY well taken.

I am excited about this can.... But I'll be studying  the situation for a while longer before I make final decisions of install  vs eBay.

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

ShoBoat

2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.

SwampRat

SRT8 .... valid points made , however the question remains .

At this time I'm tending to believe that Livernois does not  understand  the specialized qualities of the RX system and are basing there opinions on Generic catch cans that some people have used on other vehicles that have caused problem's .

Livernois could make a profit on a  generic OCC but how knowledgeable are they on the Ecoboost PCV system as I understand it it is unique and differs from other engines ?

I hope  Livernoise addresses this issue SOON as I am concerned and am by no means bashing them .
2013 SHO  ....  not mine anymore

2021 Edge ST

ShoBoat

Ok so my questions for the group and Tracy, forgive any typos as this was on my Ipad. On the issue of the RX can in particular I have only really seen the F150 vid of the guy emptying his can with all kinds of good stuff coming out of the can. Did you notice the location of the can? It's in front of the rad. The coldest location you could possibly mount it, I believe this contributes to the condensing attributes on this install. Otherwise why do inter coolers get mounted in front of the rad? This effect would be particularly intense in the winter with the can being so cold. On our cars it's mounted behind the rad just above the exhaust manifold? The can would be much warmer. The water vapour would pass right through and not condense only possibly catching some of the oil. I believe that if your attempt to catch the moist vapor this is not the best install location.

Now on to the question. The RX system employs a method of tapping into the intake tube to get vacuum to exhaust the PVC under boost. however the intake tube on the clean side is also tapped into the same tube? So in my thinking both sides of the can would have vacuum on them during this time? I don't understand how tapping into the same tube will follow much if anything under boost. With Venturi effect being applied to both tubes on opposite sides of the engine how do you get flow? I might be wrong here but until I see an actual flow test done on the EB during boost showing that it does what it says I can't see it working as advertised.

Just as a side note, the stock PVC system still does have Vacuum at both ends. However the port at the intake manifold pulls a lot more than the one in the intake tube, hence the flow under non boost.
2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.

dalum

The factory tube off the intake goes to the clean side separator not the can.  So under boost you have pressure going out of the rear valve cover, pressure at the throttle body (after turbos) and vacuum at the intake before the turbos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2013 Non-PP SHO

ShoBoat

I realize that the clean side separator is there and not the can. However both sides of the engine are trying to suck air from the same source at roughly the same vacuum (according to the install instructions just upstream of the turbo which is where the clean side is also tapped), that is my point. At least that is what I got from reading the install instructions. I might be wrong here but that's my understanding.
2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.

Tuner Boost

OK all.

As much as I respect most of what Livernoise does, and they are excellent in customer service, etc.  This is an area that all Any told you is dead wrong, and here is why. (unless they used some can hooked up wrong...the RX system is the most advanced in crankcase evacuation on the market, but there are a ton of snake oil or wrongly designed cans out there)

So, point by point.

First let me start with my background. I have been doing this for over 40 years and started as a GM factory trained tech in 1974 and have seen most anything in the automotive world as changes in technology and major flops have come and gone. I also do design work that GM has implemented in their advancements in correcting PCV and oil ingestion issues. I do systems for everything from Ford to Ferrari, from classic Maserati's that were the first to implement oil separating cans on their LeMans cars to todays championship drag racing applications.

Myself or my drivers through the years have multiple Divisonal, National, and World Championships in several classes both NHRA & IHRA in stock, super stock, super gas, super comp, top dragster, quick rod, and were one of the dominate teams for years in the Eastern US Big$ Bracket series. I am also a graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school, and our systems are used exclusively by some of the most respected builders of turbo and supercharged performance builds from the famous Nickey Chicago signature builds (all come with a RX system installed) to IPS turbo charging, SNL, and many more.

We have in the past, and continue to be pioneers in many industry first's (first GM V6 DI top mount supercharger systems, etc.) and when it comes to direct injection and any form of crankcase evacuation, we are among the most respected in the industry.




This is what I have done for longer than many have been alive, and we win or loose in Professional drag racing far to often by thousandths of a second. What we have learned in this lifetime we apply to the real world, and the EcoBoost has serious issues, all caused by a flaw in the PCV system.

So lets start with ANY engine, port injected, carb, or DI. All you ever want in the combustion chamber is air and fuel, and any amount of oil whatsoever has a negative effect in several areas during the combustion process. First, oil does not burn well at all (except 2 stroke oil formulated to mix with gas and burn clean) with the most obvious is the carbon and soot deposits it leaves. It also reduces the usable octane of the fuel and causes detonation (spark knock and spark retard is visible to any tuner logging and engine under load). It also disrupts the burn pattern, and this is critical in the design of the combustion chamber and piston tops (especially in a DI engine). It also reduces the quench areas ability to transfer and absorb heat. Then the deposits left that build up on the piston tops and the exhaust ports reducing the volumetric efficiency that the engineers worked so hard to achieve.

Here is a DI piston and you can see how complex this design is compared to a port injected flat top piston to see just how critical the burn pattern and quench areas are:


Now lets look at what could possibly be "lubricated" in the intake air charge system and the combustion chamber.  There is nothing good about oil in the intake manifold, nothing to lubricate. The valves are lubricated by the oil that is delivered on the valve spring/camshaft/valve train side and there are carefully designed seals to prevent to much from entering. All of this is to an exact science the engineers that designed the engines have arrived at. The lower side of the valves are the tulip and the lower stem. No oil should ever be touching them as it bakes on and forms deposits. With a port injection engine, these deposits are prevented from forming due to the constant shower of fuel from the injectors washing off any of the PCV oil mist from the valves BEFORE it can bake on and form the hard abrasive deposits that are drawn up and wear the valve guides:


This keeps the intake valves clean and retains the shape of the valves and the ports so the engine can flow as designed with no obstructions or vortices created from deposits forming disrupting the complete intake port, valves, and pistons flow.

And that is where direct injection comes in, and the critical need to keep these deposits from forming.  Here you can see with direct injection, the fuel can never touch the intake valve as the fuel is introduced directly into the combustion chamber:


Ans since the fuel is not injected (and it is at 1000-3000 PSI depending on the system vs 45-55 PSI for port injection) until the final 20% or so of the compression stroke, there can be no residual fuel brought back from the valve overlap reversion pulses.

This is an un-planned side effect of DI and it must be dealt with. Every auto maker in the world is scrambling to try different techniques, but to date, there is no solution that does not involve the end user draining and disposing of what is trapped.

So, where is any part of the engine benefiting from oil mist (and the sulfuric acid, water, unburnt fuel, and abrasive hydro carbon particles that are part of the PCV vapors)?  Absolutely nothing but negative effects.

Now look at the crankcase. Watch this training video to understand what the PCV system does, why it does it, and the damage that an engine will sustain over time if the PCV system is not designed or functioning correctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIfI9aZHt4

Now the Ecoboost has a serious design flaw that only allows evacuation during idle or low throttle. Anytime their is any boost present (app 80% of the operating time) the system closes, and all of these damaging compounds are accumulating and settling into the crankcase and mixing with the engine oil (gas in the oil, water in the oil, high rates of wear and oil contamination) until the crankcase pressure builds enough to force some of this out the clean (fresh) side inlet tube in to the drivers side turbo inlet. Since this is steam and hot gasses, when they hit the CAC (intercooler) they condense into the sludge and gunk that you see when removing the CAC to clean it. It also pushes this mix into the combustion chambers and it there is to much water at one time ingested, then hydro-lock occurs and catastrophic engine damage.

So, lets stop here and again, what part of any of the intake air charge system or any of the moving parts that the intake charge would touch. These are not the inefficient engines of the 50's and 60's, every single moving part will get proper lubrication, and exactly where it needs it, and any parts that should not have any oil on them will experience deposit formation from this build up.

Now lets look at what is in the PCV vapors that he claims are "lubricating" . Oil mist is only part of what makes up these vapors. Sulfuric acid does no metal parts good. Neither does water. The abrasive hard carbon particles certainly dont. Un burnt fuel has no lubricating properties, so this toxic mix could not properly lubricate anything any way, in fact just the opposite.


And further, this is only 15k miles on a Livernoise installed Magnasun supercharger intercooler w/out a proper catchcan installed. This oil has already baked on a residue that has insulated the cooler and reduced it's ability to transfer heat and cool the charge air as well as slowly clogging the fins preventing air from flowing at all eventually.



Then we come to another argument he posted in the past:  This involved a claim that these vapors lubricated the top mount superchargers and was good for them. What part I ask?  The bearings are all sealed, so no moving parts are touched that need lubrication, and depending on what type blower, most have a constant oil bath from the supercharger lubricant sealed into them. The rotors dont touch, unless oil residue builds up and causes interference and damage as they spin at extremely high rates and the clearance between them is minimal (some have a special coating on the leading edges that wear into each other for as close of tolerances as possible). Then, we have to look at the balance of the rotors. As they travel at such high speeds, 12-14,000 RPM plus, that when this oil residue builds up over time it throws off the balance and THEN we see bearing and shaft failure as well as damage/erosion to the rotors as the touch.

There are over 14,000 RX systems in use out there for over 12 years on every type application there is. If installed correctly, they all do exactly as advertised (as all the testimonials from all support).

Lets look at oil ingestion.  The current DI engines still have nearly as bad of intake valve coking and valve guide wear as the early ones. Several patents by Ford, Audi, etc. have different valve timing events and other changes to try and reduce the coking, but to date none have been effective. The EB has such a large amount of water ingestion due to the flaw it actually helps reduce the rate the valves coke with deposits, but the damages caused by all this water in the crankcase, etc. far outweigh the benefits.

Now lets look at how DI engines have improved as far as intake valve coking. 

Deposits such as this by 30-50k miles are still the norm:



And even in as little as 12k miles on this 2013:
We can see some progress has been made, but there is a long way to go.

And then there is the buildup of this residue in the ringlands of the pistons. As this builds up the rings stick and are unable to seal properly and excess blow by and oil consumption is the result. Stopping the ingestion can allow them to self-clean and free up again if the issue is not to severe. If it is to severe only a tear down and manual cleaning will correct this.

So, anyone with any questions, ask and be as specific as possible. None of this is opinion that I have posted here, this is all documented fact and reference material is plentiful.  You cannot apply opinion and old wives tales to actual engineering and science. And plenty have post pictures of their own intake valves that they performed manual cleanings on to prove it (anyone can easily remove your own intake manifold and see first hand).

No auto maker admits to having the coking issue, yet they advertise how they are correcting it!  yet the pictures from techs from all over the world show otherwise.  From Audi adding back small port injectors, to GM stating their VVT valve events prevent ANY fuel from touching the valves, to Ford claiming they allow fuel to touch the valves (it does not).  So all are scrambling to correct the issues

Tuner Boost

To add to and clarify, the RX system uses the inlet side of the turbos for evacuation while in boost, and the checkvalves prevent any reversion or back flow. The cleanside tube is only on the drivers side, and the drill into this for evacuation underboost must be closer to the turbos. The pass side (or on a transverse the opposite side) turbo has not line tapped in to disperse suction, so it provides app 80% of the suction needed to evacuate properly.  On the clean side, every inch closer to the turbo there is less dispersion from the air filter, a the actual vacuum measured increases. So the clean is almost always at less suction at that barb allowing the flow to maintain cleanside flushing air in, dirty foul vapors out the opposite side. When the brief transition from non-boost to boost occurs the flow can reverse momentarily, thus the cleanside separator to trap that oil and allow it to be drawn back in as soon as the flow is correct again, or we would just leave the OEM clean side intact.

Tuner Boost

Here are a few more links to see just how this effects all manufacturers even today:

https://www.google.com/search?q=intake+valve+coking+deposits+with+direct+injection&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=ojZEU6iqK6O-0AGr54DYDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAjgK&biw=1600&bih=775&dpr=1

This is a great one, but they are assuming the PCV system has no no ingestion issues, and is also taking the PR statements that all is now solved, which we as engine builders on these new GDI engines see first hand it is not.  I wish the automakers could be honest instead of always down playing issues (see GM's latest lawsuits).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzXeeCiSL7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n-F73rQZDo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-hQsL-FZWw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRiZOTTel34

And this shows an upper induction cleaning service can only do so much. Either clean manually, or prevent it from the beginning with the RX system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuHxy2qdtC8


krdiesel

Has anyone thought about using a Racor CCV4500. Allot of us have one on my 6.0 and it works perfect.   On the 6.0 you can suck about a quart of oil into the turbo through the CCV every 5000 miles.

  We do not worry about water in the oil because oil temp cooled down to 200, when working hard the oil temp pre cooled is around 300.   

ShoBoat

Tracy I don't believe anyone is saying that you do no have lots on knowledge on this subject and stating that LMS is wrong is a bit much as they have as much experience on the EB cars and trucks as anyone. That said I am still interested in your product if just the clean side separator. I would like to get your input on my previous question on the different install locations between the SHO and the F150.
2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.

SwampRat

Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2014, 02:18:14 PM
Tracy I don't believe anyone is saying that you do no have lots on knowledge on this subject and stating that LMS is wrong is a bit much as they have as much experience on the EB cars and trucks as anyone. That said I am still interested in your product if just the clean side separator. I would like to get your input on my previous question on the different install locations between the SHO and the F150.


Tracy has more than adequately backed his claims with FACTS .
Livernoise , to be deemed credible should as well .
2013 SHO  ....  not mine anymore

2021 Edge ST

bpd1151

Although I don't claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable on this topic, as either TunerBoost, or reps from Livernois, I do find the points and counterpoints, to be if nothing else, just plain interesting and informative.

To TB......

I am perplexed as to why you keep posting information regarding LMS's Supercharger, and also continue referencing specifically GM related products and examples in both video form, as well as still picture form that don't apply to the Ecoboost platform?

The piston you displayed is not a Ford Ecoboost factory piston. What piston product is that culled from?

The Ecoboost powerplants have never employed Superchargers, and to generically state "DI engines" in a general sense, I think is perhaps glossing over, and broadly labeling all DI engines as being related to specific perceived problematic issues to the Ecoboost platform individually.

Also, I'm pretty confident, based on my own driving habits (and mind you, I tend to drive more aggressively, than most) that to say all Ecoboost engines are "in boost" 80% of the time, is also merely an opinion.

I myself am not anywhere near "in boost" at this high of a stated percentage, so perhaps the evacuation system employed in the Ecoboost engines is operating more efficiently, more often, even in closed format?

Do you have any specific experiences related directly to the Ecoboost platform, including, but not limited to, actual teardowns of an Ecoboost engine, and it's related internals, and not just GM products?

Finally, can you render any opinions, or thought processes to those members here who are using Methanol (whether in 100% solution, or a lesser dilution) as to whether or not it's use is providing the "cleaning" abilities as currently believed, in lieu of running any type of catch can product?

Also curious if you have either spoken directly with, or exchanged any type of electronic communication with EBPF member PainterPatt and inquire as to why he has posted his experiences thus far with your product having caught zero oil deposits/contaminants/etc. after more than 500 miles of use?

Thanks in advance for your time! :thankyou:








SRT82ECOBOOST

Quote from: SwampRat on April 08, 2014, 03:12:16 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2014, 02:18:14 PM
Tracy I don't believe anyone is saying that you do no have lots on knowledge on this subject and stating that LMS is wrong is a bit much as they have as much experience on the EB cars and trucks as anyone. That said I am still interested in your product if just the clean side separator. I would like to get your input on my previous question on the different install locations between the SHO and the F150.


Tracy has more than adequately backed his claims with FACTS .
Livernoise , to be deemed credible should as well .
I think Livernois Motorsports (LM) clearly stated on where they stand concerning the use of a catch can and RX takes a completely different stance. LM says there is not a use for one and RX says for you to install one. LM is trying to give you free guidance on a product they don't sell and RX is trying to convince you to buy their product. Completely different motives from either side of this topic.

Basically I don't think it is LM's responsibility to refute or agree with every other manufacturer's products claims when they do not represent the product.
2013 SHO PP in White Platinum Metallic Tricoat, PPE Downpipes, Livernois Stage V8/3 Bar, Custom 2.5" Catback, 170 T-stat, Airaid CAI, H+R Springs and debadged
Boston Acoustics 2.1 Audio Upgrade

ShoBoat

^^ well said.
If we are taking facts, take 2 identical 3.5 EBs one with and one with out the RX or whatever catch can. Run them for 50k miles with the same maintenance schedule. Then tear them down and compare them that would be fact. Not some pics of different extreme cases and one video of some guy dumping some crud from a can (most of which didn't seem to be oil). As stated most of the pictures and related material is not from the Ecoboost platform.

fact or fiction? EB torture test tear down? I don't see a catch can on this one.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFfRcwesqNg

2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.