E85 is AWESOME!

[SwampRat]

Learning as I go ... I'm a little confused on on the E85 thing I've been reading up on it and have changed my mind and decided to give it a try .... especially at $2.69 a gallon . Last night before I installed the 3 Bar , t-stat and plugs I filled to a little over 3/4 with 91 . This morning after I loaded Torries 91 Tune I drove to a Kum n Go gas station that has E85 and topped it off with 4 gallons of E85. I only live about 3 miles from it.
Some posts are saying don't use E85 in the 13 SHO and others are Nuts over it.
The fuel inlet shows E85/20 so I'm thinking go for it , especially with it blended with 91 to raise the octane.
I have Torries 93 tune as well just not loaded ...
I'm not using Torque Pro yet ... waiting on my MX to get here .

[EcoPowerParts]

Work with torrie to get some good data logs to make sure you're not running out of fuel, that's  your only concern, E85 takes 30% more fuel than regular gas and you're close to the limit of the stock fuel system with a tune already.

[SHOdded]

Hopefully, having a 2013 will work in his favor and give him some headroom over the 2010-12.  Torrie probably already knows, wink wink.

[SwampRat]

Hopefully, having a 2013 will work in his favor and give him some headroom over the 2010-12.  Torrie probably already knows, wink wink.

That's what I was thinking as I have read several posts on the forum stating that the fuel delivery system on the13+ is a little beefier.

I don't want   to mess with this too much until my MX comes in so I can run Torque Pro.

What should I be monitoring ?

I'll send Torrie an email and ask him what he has for an E85 blend .


Eventually my build plan will necessitate a modified pump system , possibly the one that 4DR has .

[FoMoCoSHO]

As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.

He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.

[SwampRat]

As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.

He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.

Thank you FoMoCoSHO , I am waiting for a reply from Torrie about this . I expect to hear from him tomorrow .

What Tune do you normally run ?

[FoMoCoSHO]

As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.

He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.

Thank you FoMoCoSHO , I am waiting for a reply from Torrie about this . I expect to hear from him tomorrow .

What Tune do you normally run ?

I am untuned so my fuel requirement is definitely less than yours.

Untuned at E-29%, I've had no issues which I believe is due to the beefier LPFP in the 2013's.

As soon as my cutout returns from PPE I will be using Mr Torrie for a datalog tune with E-85.

Just take it easy till he gets you tweaked and you should be safe.

[FoMoCoSHO]

I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.

[SwampRat]

I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.

When my MX OBDII  adapter gets here Sometime  this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .

[FoMoCoSHO]

Hey 4DR, I've read that the EB uses Bosch fuel injection parts.

http://www.bosch-automotivetechnology.com/media/en/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/de_5/Bosch_di_folder.pdf

Is any of this in our cars that you know of?

Because the specs about MAX pressures, types of fuel, etc is quite interesting.

This stuff will support 2900PSI and "worldwide qualities" fuel.

Apparently the Motronic ECU has torque based programming also

"Torque is used as the key criterion for implementing all
requirements. According to this criterion, the air-fuel
ratio is adjusted in such a way that the demanded
torque is provided as economically and cleanly as
possible. It also allows active driving safety systems
such as traction control and ESP® to intervene in the
engine torque.
Motronic can be used to control internal-combustion
engines
running on gasoline (port fuel or direct injec
-
tion), diesel, natural gas (CNG, liquid gas) or ethanol
as well as hybrid drives. Standardized communication
interfaces and data formats support networking with
all vehicle systems which influence the drivetrain. "

[BiGMaC]

I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.

When my MX OBDII  adapter gets here Sometime  this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .

I think Torque calculates AFR indirectly for our cars (yes even with wide band) rather than measuring it.  The best we've got, but perhaps not good enough... dunno

[EcoPowerParts]

I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.

When my MX OBDII  adapter gets here Sometime  this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .

I think Torque calculates AFR indirectly for our cars (yes even with wide band) rather than measuring it.  The best we've got, but perhaps not good enough... dunno

Torque takes the lambda measurement and then applies stoich calculations based off of settings in the profile of your vehicle. You can choose your gas type. I wish I could just see lambda, I'd rather see that due to fuel mixing but since they're calculating off of lambda as long as you know the numbers you're expecting you're good.

Another explanation:
The best ratio for gas mixture is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel.
The best ratio for e85 mixture is 9.8 parts air to 1 part fuel.

The O2 sensor does not know how much air or fuel you started with. It only knows oxygen levels left in the spent charge. The O2 sensor reports in terms of lambda. If the lambda value is 1.0, the fuel is burned optimally, and started with the right mix. Whether you start with gas at 14.7:1 or e85 at 9.8:1, the lambda will be the same at the O2 sensor.

When you see a value reported from a wideband, the value is typically converted to a gas equivalent AFR. Some widebands (like the PLX) will let you change the display and show lambda, or show ethanol-equivalent AFR's. So, let's say your wideband is set to show gas equivalent AFR, but you are running e85. Cruising around, the display will show 14.7:1. This means the lambda is 1.0, and in reality your e85 mix is 9.8:1. When you go WOT, the wideband display shows 11.76:1. This means your lambda is .80, and if you are running e85, the actual mix was 7.84:1.


More info:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/1307_wideband_oxygen_sensor/

This table is what is important notice the Lambda of max power rich and lean of the various fuels. It varies but I personally tune for around .80 Lambda and then add fuel if we see knock. Around here it's very easy to knock on 91 octane so richer is better to an extent. With E85 or E85 mixing the ethanol heat removing properties helps immensely to stop knock. This is why both my Flex and V are running around at approximately 26-28 degrees of timing at WOT, can't even consider that on gas and meth injection.
Air/Fuel (A/F) Ratios of Common Fuels

Fuel	A/F	Lambda (λ)
Pure Gasoline Stoichiometric	14.7	1.000
Pure Gasoline Max Power Rich	12.5	0.8503
Pure Gasoline Max Power Lean	13.23	0.900
E10 Stoichiometric	14.08	1.000
E10 Max Power Rich	12.0	0.8523
E10 Max Power Lean	12.7008	0.9020
E15 Stoichiometric	13.79	1.000
E15 Max Power Rich	11.75	0.8521
E15 Max Power Lean	12.4362	0.9018
E85 Stoichiometric	9.765	1.000
E85 Max Power Rich	6.975	0.7143
E85 Max Power Lean	8.469	0.8673
Ethanol Stoichiometric	9.0078	1.000
Ethanol Max Power Rich	6.429	0.7137
Ethanol Max Power Lean	7.8	0.8659
Methanol Stoichiometric	6.45	1.000
Methanol Max Power Rich	4.0	0.620
Propane Stoichiometric	15.7	1.000
Propane Max Power Rich	13.18	0.8395

[BiGMaC]

Thanks Mike.... Excellent write-up on AFR measurement methodology for folks like me who needed a primer. 

[FoMoCoSHO]

For the purposes of this thread, please refer to pg 62.

There is a ton of other info as well.

Enjoy!

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf

[FoMoCoSHO]

Hey 4dr, there is a specific section in there for the ECO 3.5 fuel system (Pg 158)

My research indicates that the Bosch fuel system we have will support 2900 PSI at the rail(The rail sensor does 3770PSI!)

The way I read this, the only thing keeping us from increasing FPR is tuning.

I'm also thinking along with the 2013 LPFP change, our programming may have changed also which could be why I have so much rail pressure unlike gen 4.1

I'm curious about your thoughts on this.