Quote from: IHeartGroceries on April 17, 2014, 08:14:18 PM
There's a ton to be learned from the Mazdaspeed enthusiast community. As much as many refuse to believe, the Mazda MZR is grandfather to Ford's EB series of engines.
I think many limitations of DI were fully realized by the MSF community before many others.

I've seen FoMoCoSHO and others mention the added capacity of some of the fueling components on 13+ EBs. If this is indeed factual, I don't think the limitations of 13+ OE components have been established. Tuning support would greatly assist in this, with 13+ 3.5l EBs.
There's not a lot of wiggle room in regards to pulse width with DI injectors, because of shortened engine cycle event timing windows, compared to PI.
So, it truly takes more volume. I think the chances of seeing plug and play, higher cc replacement injectors on the EB is like it was on the MZR - slim to none.

There's headway with meth injection, as we know, but short of actual replacement components, such as the HPFP and injectors, there's only so far you can go.
A permanent fixture of high HP Mazdaspeeds in a fifth port injector.
IIRC, 4DR has already dappled in this area.

What it takes is folks who are willing to push the envelope, in addition to solid tuning solutions and support.

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IHeart ... You are factually incorrect incorect in two areas .

1   The 13+ 3.5 ecoboost enigne DOES have a beefed up improved fueling system over the older models . FoMoCoSHO ran  13.3 today .. no mods E85 at 25% . Try that in an older SHO ..
You CANNOT run blends in the  older models ... Period.
Info on this has been discussed on the F150 forums as well as other online sources .

2   The Deutschwerk's Injectors  Will for be available for sale this summer .
They are plug n play and will only require a revised tune , the full potential of there 25% greater  flow capabilites over OEM   will not be realized until the intank fuel pump and HPFP are replaced and or suplemented .

Again this information is readily available .... if you take the time to read it below ....

Quote from: SwampRat on April 15, 2014, 09:17:51 PM
For those that are questioning the need for upgraded injectors for the 3.5 EB  this is an excerpt from the article in the link further below .

Sounds like pretty convincing data to me .


Any tuner will tell you that the more data they have on the parts in a particular setup, the better than can tune a car. Deatschwerks spent about a year developing and verifying injector calibration summaries for their entire modern muscle car product line. "When you purchase a set of our injectors, what comes with them–which, in many cases, tuners find more valuable–is the tuning data," says Deatsch.

"All of our modern muscle injectors have plug-and-play tuning data to get set up in your ECU...You can go right to our website, go to the Resources tab, find the GM or Ford calibrations, pick your injector part number, download an Excel spreadsheet, and the copy and paste the injector data you need for tuning right into the ECU tables."


http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/


These injectors along with a modified fuel pump , or maybe unlocking the FRP through tuning as hinted at by FoMoCoSho is what is going to make things happen .

Factually incorrect?

Firstly, I didn't explicitly doubt that some of the 13+ fueling componentry is upgraded over previous m/y. I simply stated I've seen it mentioned on the forum.

Secondly, I'm not factually incorrect, because I stated a matter of opinion regarding aftermarket injector solutions. Furthermore, until it is fully available to consumers, it is unaccountable.
If there are some in development, that's fantastic.

There are two upstream areas in fuel delivery, which for most enthusiasts here, would need to be upgraded before any additional volume at the cylinders could be feasible.

If buying FoMoCo 13+ whole HPFP assemblies is the only option for pre-13 owners, that's a very costly option, before even factoring in the cost of injectors or in-tank pumps.

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The HPFP is the same, LPFP differences include variable pressure with max 10 psi above gen 4.1

My opinion is, that still won't go very far, and even with added volume on the low side, and added volume at the cylinders, the cam driven pump will still serve as a bottleneck.
It might work for some low blend E tuning on stock turbos (which supposedly don't have alot more breath anyway).

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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on April 17, 2014, 10:01:30 PM
My opinion is, that still won't go very far, and even with added volume on the low side, and added volume at the cylinders, the cam driven pump will still serve as a bottleneck.
It might work for some low blend E tuning on stock turbos (which supposedly don't have alot more breath anyway).

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OK ... but I was disagreeing with your opinion .

The point is these parts are being developed for the fuel situation we have and although we may want in tank pumps or a supplemental system and an improved HPFP , the parts are being made .

It's when we have all three the juices get flowin .

Throw  ATP turbos in the mix and ........

To suggest that a product is not worth considering simply because it is not available for sale is what I dont understand .
Ford has a press release on the 2.7EB and everyone is all ears ....

Is there any development or advancement taking place with the cam driven pump?
There's absolutely no way improvements (at their full potential) downstream won't be starved by the OE.
The Mazda pumps are rebuildable (DIY) with internals, and at a reasonable cost. Surely something similar is possible on this engine.

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I think Iheart is saying that just because it is in development doesn't mean it will happen as soon as we like. This has been proven many times over again in the 2.3 Mazda engine--A lot of talk of injectors but none produced.

Just because they have a release date, does not mean it will be met or scraped all together because they ran into unaccounted issues

Quote from: Josephm on April 17, 2014, 10:28:06 PM
I think Iheart is saying that just because it is in development doesn't mean it will happen as soon as we like. This has been proven many times over again in the 2.3 Mazda engine--A lot of talk of injectors but none produced.

Just because they have a release date, does not mean it will be met or scraped all together because they ran into unaccounted issues

Deatschwerks is a heavy hitter in this field ... if they say it's coming it will.

Hi All
I have been told the F150 ECO Boost injectors are a higher flow rate then the SHO/Flex version
If so they are available  for about $40.00 each
Anyone tried them?

Thought I would add something
I owned a new 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire
Had a 215 Cu In engine with a turbo & a carter YFH carb at the turbo inlet
It came from the factory with w Methanol/ Water injection system
The fluid was expensive when purchased from the Olds dealer so eventually blended my own
With 15lbs boost & alcohol injection it would nail 409 Chevys & 413 Dodges at the dragstrip.
Showin my age aren't I

As for the E85 and the EcoBoost, our position has not changed. This is a hardware problem, so until a new HPFP exists (the only real way to increase flow) E85 will not be supported. And even as such, the video clearly states we recommend C85 so it's of proper quality. We know people are going to do what they want, and it's their choice to do so in the long run, so long as the car is properly set up for it.

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 29, 2014, 06:50:34 PM
As for the E85 and the EcoBoost, our position has not changed. This is a hardware problem, so until a new HPFP exists (the only real way to increase flow) E85 will not be supported. And even as such, the video clearly states we recommend C85 so it's of proper quality. We know people are going to do what they want, and it's their choice to do so in the long run, so long as the car is properly set up for it.

So much for the LMS guys being optimistic about E85 tuning ...forget it , there stuck in the mud on this subject .

Quote from: SwampRat on April 30, 2014, 02:49:38 AM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 29, 2014, 06:50:34 PM
As for the E85 and the EcoBoost, our position has not changed. This is a hardware problem, so until a new HPFP exists (the only real way to increase flow) E85 will not be supported. And even as such, the video clearly states we recommend C85 so it's of proper quality. We know people are going to do what they want, and it's their choice to do so in the long run, so long as the car is properly set up for it.

So much for the LMS guys being optimistic about E85 tuning ...forget it , there stuck in the mud on this subject .

I am sorry that is your opinion, the fact of the matter is we care more about our customer's investment than to give what we feel is bad advice. We want to ensure that their experience is the best it can be. Again, we have less of a problem with the fuel then we do the supply. We know the fuel isn't perfect (which is why we suggest a sealed drum solution to ensure quality) but all of this is irrelevant until a real fuel system solution comes to fruition. Injectors won't do anything, and neither will increasing the flow from the LPFP. Neither of these areas are a road block. The cost of good fuel is a small price to pay compared to an engine in the grand scheme of things.

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 30, 2014, 07:24:54 PM

Quote from: SwampRat on April 30, 2014, 02:49:38 AM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 29, 2014, 06:50:34 PM
As for the E85 and the EcoBoost, our position has not changed. This is a hardware problem, so until a new HPFP exists (the only real way to increase flow) E85 will not be supported. And even as such, the video clearly states we recommend C85 so it's of proper quality. We know people are going to do what they want, and it's their choice to do so in the long run, so long as the car is properly set up for it.

So much for the LMS guys being optimistic about E85 tuning ...forget it , there stuck in the mud on this subject .

I am sorry that is your opinion, the fact of the matter is we care more about our customer's investment than to give what we feel is bad advice. We want to ensure that their experience is the best it can be. Again, we have less of a problem with the fuel then we do the supply. We know the fuel isn't perfect (which is why we suggest a sealed drum solution to ensure quality) but all of this is irrelevant until a real fuel system solution comes to fruition. Injectors won't do anything, and neither will increasing the flow from the LPFP. Neither of these areas are a road block. The cost of good fuel is a small price to pay compared to an engine in the grand scheme of things.

I've invited an ethanol expert to join the forum. I'm looking forward to his response.
And for your own information I have my own test as well as 3rd party testing that LPFP upgrades do in fact make major differences.
Your testing may not have worked, mine did and so did a 3rd party that I have been working with, to the tune of 30HP just for going boost referenced FPR.
You may not believe it but I know it works. Look for a combo effort from myself and Full-Race to come out with a complete F150 fueling solution.
I love being a little guy and making awesome advancements! Not bad for a guy dreaming this stuff up in his garage and making it happen.

Greetings,

I've been around the ethanol supply side for a while, and wanted to address any questions regarding fuel characteristics, supply, and current pricing.

"Inferior" is generally not a fuel metric, rather the component measures of it's specifications.  'E85' is generally made at the fuel terminal to a level of ethanol content allowed by environmental factors that dictate Reid vapor pressure. (e70 for winter) as well as rack price for the components (namely RBOB and denatured ethanol).  Exact quality and ratio are dependent on quality controls at the terminal.  It would be no different in Michigan.   There have been no recent published surveys showing concern from any approved fuel blends to my knowledge - not even from the API.

A recent backlog in rail power units - from an extreme winter and demand from both container and Bakken oil has largely resolved, and basis is normalizing.  Shipment for fall denatured E approaches 2.10/gallon gross, 1.70 per gallon net (RIN spot) .    /this is at or below BTU parity and far below aromatic fraction prices.

For those concerned with exact fuel blends, I would recommend considering taking delivery on raw product and blending with RBOB. I would otherwise expect most custom fuel tables to compensate for these changes.

Please forward any questions.

Thank you,

Graham Adsit