Tuning for E85

[bigmoneycloser]

LMS just announced on their Facebook page that they will now be tuning for various ethanol blends in the 2011+ mustangs with their tuner..
And they note the same will be coming soon for other vehicles...

Good news for guys running ethanol..



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[FoMoCoSHO]

Well that's an interesting development...

[SwampRat]

From all the back n forth between LMS and 4DR I doubt it will include the 3.5 EB , but then again maybe there preparing to eat Crow .

[BiGMaC]

Here's the LMS FB post:

"Run E85 in your 2011+ Ford Mustang and want a better solution for tuning around different ethanol content or when moving back to gasoline? Livernois Motorsports & Engineering has heard your requests and has added even more capability to our popular Split Personality tuning solution. Not only can it provide nitrous specific, or race gas specific tunes at the flip of the switch, We have now added the capability to support E85 tuning with it.

http://youtu.be/OQewyrbOfnU

Check out the product here:
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/AIW-MyCal-Split-Personality-Tuner.html

Don't forget to check back for support on other vehicles coming soon."

What cars other than this... dunno ... they say check back.  Clearly they have heard the end user though and are moving to accommodate.

Mike gets his due in the video where the pre & post dyno curves show 90HP  and 60+ ft/lb gain with E85 in the GT500... and nice smooth dyno curves... hope for all the E85 fans that the transfers 3.5 EB series engines are next!

[SwampRat]

 Quote from prior post discussing E85 blends ....... " Under no circumstances can we recommend using this in an ecoboost application " .



" I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation  "


[/quote]author=Livernois Motorsports link=topic=2247.msg32961#msg32961 date=1394641708]

Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel  car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.

Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.

guess we will just continue to do things the right way,

You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.

Mike,

We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.

Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).

Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.

With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.

I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.

Dan Millen
[/quote]

[BiGMaC]

Yea... I think everyone remembers... And we all change our minds from time to time... IMHO no need to stir it all up again...the news however is this LMS announcement below.

What cars other than this... dunno ... they say check back.  Clearly they have heard the end user now and are moving to accommodate.

As noted before, Mike gets his due in the video where the pre & post dyno curves show 90HP  and 60+ ft/lb gain with E85 in the GT500... and nice smooth dyno curves... hope for all the E85 fans that the transverse 3.5 EB series engines are next!


"Run E85 in your 2011+ Ford Mustang and want a better solution for tuning around different ethanol content or when moving back to gasoline? Livernois Motorsports & Engineering has heard your requests and has added even more capability to our popular Split Personality tuning solution. Not only can it provide nitrous specific, or race gas specific tunes at the flip of the switch, We have now added the capability to support E85 tuning with it.

http://youtu.be/OQewyrbOfnU

Check out the product here:
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/AIW-MyCal-Split-Personality-Tuner.html

Don't forget to check back for support on other vehicles coming soon."

[IHeartGroceries]

I knew they'd fold eventually, with how overwhelmingly popular tuning with E has become.
Competitively speaking, as a business, with ethanol's factually established benefits, it'd be foolish not to.

But, how is the Mustang's fueling?
It seemed to me LMSs main grunt with tuning for E on the 3.5 EB was lack of fueling capacity...

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[BiGMaC]

Good question.   Dunno.   

[EcoPowerParts]

I doubt they'll support it as is, maybe once DI pumps are available.

[68_GT]

@ groceries

probably a tone easier to upgrade the Mustang / GT500 fuel system tio support E85 than any ecoboost vehicles.

[68_GT]

I doubt they'll support it as is, maybe once DI pumps are available.

this and the larger capacity DI injectors ?!

[BiGMaC]

I doubt they'll support it as is, maybe once DI pumps are available.

this and the larger capacity DI injectors ?!

I'd guess the same as all tuners do for folks without modded injectors or fuel pumps.... 99%+ of us.   If this isn't the way for now, why does anyone do it... FoMoCoSHO is having success... No one tuning now for the mods mentioned above.

[IHeartGroceries]

There's a ton to be learned from the Mazdaspeed enthusiast community. As much as many refuse to believe, the Mazda MZR is grandfather to Ford's EB series of engines.
I think many limitations of DI were fully realized by the MSF community before many others.

I've seen FoMoCoSHO and others mention the added capacity of some of the fueling components on 13+ EBs. If this is indeed factual, I don't think the limitations of 13+ OE components have been established. Tuning support would greatly assist in this, with 13+ 3.5l EBs.
There's not a lot of wiggle room in regards to pulse width with DI injectors, because of shortened engine cycle event timing windows, compared to PI.
So, it truly takes more volume. I think the chances of seeing plug and play, higher cc replacement injectors on the EB is like it was on the MZR - slim to none.

There's headway with meth injection, as we know, but short of actual replacement components, such as the HPFP and injectors, there's only so far you can go.
A permanent fixture of high HP Mazdaspeeds in a fifth port injector.
IIRC, 4DR has already dappled in this area.

What it takes is folks who are willing to push the envelope, in addition to solid tuning solutions and support.

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[EcoPowerParts]

I learned everything from the MSF for my aux fuel system, DI setups etc. I also had a speed 6, great platform to learn on for DI.

[IHeartGroceries]

I recall well your zoom zoom boom thread, years ago on 6club.


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