Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 12:28:28 PM

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 12, 2014, 11:29:41 AM
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel  car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.

Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.

Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,

You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.

Mike,

We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.

Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).

Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.

With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.

I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.

Dan Millen

Play it safe man ...

Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...

When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully  we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.

I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources  to develop this .

Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM

Play it safe man ...

Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...

When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully  we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.

I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources  to develop this .

The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM

Play it safe man ...

Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...

When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully  we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.

I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources  to develop this .

The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.

We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.

http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstudies2009/E-85/E-85%20Final%20Report%20_120609_.pdf

Here is a 2009 E-85 fuel quality survey.

There is definitely quality issues with regards to dry vapor pressure equivalent (DVPE) which refers to the fuels cold starting issues. (This of course will be negated when blended with 70% straight gas)

In all other areas however it seems the industry is doing a good job dealing with all of the alleged "quality issues"

"None of the test results indicate any concern for the quality of the hydrocarbon content of the E85 samples, either from the denaturant added to the original ethanol or the gasoline used to blend with the ethanol to make E85"

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM

Play it safe man ...

Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...

When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully  we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.

I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources  to develop this .

The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.

What is the threshold for dangerous FPR in these cars?

I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.

Boy, am I glad I am satisfied with 93.  No worries here.

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.

So then you are working on some type of upgrade fuel delivery system ?
There are many of us that do not care to use methanol injection.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.

When are you (FOMOCO) going to get a tune and start making some real power...? 

Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:09:23 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.

When are you going to get a tune and start making some real power...? 

Just waiting on my cutout to come back from Mike/PPE

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:10:18 PM

Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:09:23 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.

When are you going to get a tune and start making some real power...? 

Just waiting on my cutout to come back from Mike/PPE

Dont need a cutout to run a tune...  :0

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?

Anybody want some E100?

We have plenty that we have seen and also encountered ourselves. At the end of the say we would not risk our customer's engines over something like this. If people don't agree with us that is their right to do so, but that won't change our stance on what we know is right and wrong.

We take great pride in the trust bestowed upon us when we sell, install, or tune something on a customer's car. Part of that is being honest with them about our experiences, knowledge, and opinions. The most unfortunate part is that no one will realize we are right until it costs them an engine. I honestly hope that never happens to anyone in this community, but is the very reason behind why we won't offer it. Race gas tunes? Yes, Meth tunes? Yes, E85 between the fuel system and negatives with the fuel itself just make it unsafe in our opinion. Is there a day that even better regulation coupled with our upgraded fuel system might change that? I hope so, but that day isn't today.

Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 03:08:48 PM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.

So then you are working on some type of upgrade fuel delivery system ?
There are many of us that do not care to use methanol injection.

We have been for some time actually.