Metro, keep plugging away man! I'm very excited to hear of your results with HPT.

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Quote from: metroplex on July 30, 2016, 05:09:30 AM
so what's the table for sport mode?


From your dyno post, it seemed like it took you 2 years to get through the SCT tuning process and SCT was missing values early on. So what are some of these important parameters that are missing in HP Tuners? Are you using the latest version? They only added more SHO tables within the past week or so.

As for forcing the throttle open, I don't think it is necessary. With the tables that are currently available in HPTuners (3.20.50), forcing the throttle open causes the WGDC and Desired TIP to drop, resulting in starting at around 18 psi then dropping to 12 psi. I even heard some aftermarket tunes are this way as well but this will only net about 42-43 lb/min inferred air massflow.

When I let the ECU do its thing, the WGDC and desired TIP pretty much stay the same. The only time the throttle closes is during the shifts but it doesn't really affect MAP boost. I looked at your dyno thread and the log you had showed massive TIP spikes during the shifts, and I believe you've always recommended changing the WOT settings.

I don't know if there is a table for sport mode....I think it's simply a pedal multiplier

When you go to WOT you actually aren't using any of the driver demand tables, it's something different entirely.

Yeah it took me a while, some of my tuning woes were my fault and overlooking some things and some were due to a lack of functionality of software

You absolutely want the throttle open when you go WOT...You don't really want to force the throttle open but it should happen naturally when you floor it right?...When you go WOT that WILL NOT bring down wastegate duty and desired TIP....The wastegate duty dropping is a result of the desired TIP dropping and desired TIP is dropping because you are in a table that I don't know if you have or don't have.

If an aftermarket tune drop boost or desired tip it's because then are not commanding the boost and tq properly.

The massive TIP spikes you mention are when the throttle closes. It's attempting to maintain a certain boost in the manifold, so when you are above that value, the throttle will close to lower MAP and the pressure in the charge piping pre throttle body as measured by the TIP sensor will rise....It has to, the airflow is hitting a wall....The throttle blade.

If you don't use the throttle a little to control boots spikes you will have massive boost spikes in the manifold which is real boost which the car has to try to fuel for which can be a problem...That's why the SHO TIP sensor can read more.

HPT seems to think Driver Demand for Terrain is the DD table for sport mode. Once that's unlocked, I'll give it a try. I am think of detuning normal drive boost levels for fuel economy and then use the boosted table for sport mode.

If you look at my log, I am letting the ECU do the work with the srock 1023 WOP start/stop ad counts. It keeps the throttle open until it shifts. If I set custom WOP start/stop values (which according to HPT it ignores DD and tries to make as much torque as it is limited), it ends up forcing the throttle open the entire time. I found the ECU then cuts WGDC and desired TIP in that situation.

When I didn't change inverse flange temp and hit a limiter, the 1023 WOP settings would cause TIP to go as high as 27 psi but MAP was still stock at 10 psi. With custom WOP settings, it acted stock.

I'm not saying what I'm doing is 100% right but it works and as an engineer, the data makes sense to me. Until more EcoBoost tuners actually share data, I'll have to keep experimenting and trying to learn from others who care to share

I'll walk it back and maybe I'm wrong and terrain does control sport mode but I don't think...Maybe I can test it later.

But I do know that once you force WOT, none of the driver demand tables control commanded torque....Which is why I think when you go WOT with your custom WOP pedal settings you go to stock boost.

The reason I don't think terrain driver demand is sport mode because there are other driver demand tables in the SHO tunes that they simply don't use..

I don't fully understand why but there are many tables and scalars that are in the ECU and tune that are NOT active

Quote from: AJP turbo on July 30, 2016, 01:27:37 PM
I'll walk it back and maybe I'm wrong and terrain does control sport mode but I don't think...Maybe I can test it later.

But I do know that once you force WOT, none of the driver demand tables control commanded torque....Which is why I think when you go WOT with your custom WOP pedal settings you go to stock boost.

The reason I don't think terrain driver demand is sport mode because there are other driver demand tables in the SHO tunes that they simply don't use..

I don't fully understand why but there are many tables and scalars that are in the ECU and tune that are NOT active

I'm guessing its because we all (transverse) have the same base tables and scalars from the factory. That makes a lot more sense financially than making maps for every different car/trim, etc.

Terrain sounds like its a setting for the EX sport.

I think that might be the ticket. We have tables for Sand, Snow, etc... but those are Explorer settings. I know going into Sport mode changes the throttle mapping, shift schedules, and a few other items (like the ability to stay in a gear manually). It was hard trying to get this idea through to HP Tuners though. It wasn't until I logged clear differences in boost levels that they started looking at it.

Question for EXsport owners....

Are those settings changed with a dial or from driver menu settings?

I suspect we have those settings as well but they are just turned off.

It looks like a dial/knob:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcIPZ-9ioE

Quote from: AJP turbo on July 29, 2016, 11:06:14 PM

Quote from: metroplex on July 29, 2016, 03:34:07 PM
How well does it run at 0.85 lambda? I was experimenting with this as well and couldn't find much data from anyone other than dyno sheets for F-150's w/ the 3.5 EB and they seemed to be running 0.85 lambda with 87 and 93 octane.

16-17 PSI and I think 22-23 degrees available timing w/o knock so far.

Tons of rail pressure

I've been running 0.85 lambda and didn't see any change in knock retard from 0.76, 0.79, or 0.82 and the fuel rail pressure looks almost stock.

Quote from: metroplex on August 02, 2016, 04:45:41 AM

Quote from: AJP turbo on July 29, 2016, 11:06:14 PM

Quote from: metroplex on July 29, 2016, 03:34:07 PM
How well does it run at 0.85 lambda? I was experimenting with this as well and couldn't find much data from anyone other than dyno sheets for F-150's w/ the 3.5 EB and they seemed to be running 0.85 lambda with 87 and 93 octane.

16-17 PSI and I think 22-23 degrees available timing w/o knock so far.

Tons of rail pressure

I've been running 0.85 lambda and didn't see any change in knock retard from 0.76, 0.79, or 0.82 and the fuel rail pressure looks almost stock.

On your graph it appeared you had almost 5 degrees of KR and were only running 5 degrees of timing?

So it looks like as you are adding boost the ECM is pulling timing?

 

I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet. I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85

To run this down even further, I looked at the BKT for other EcoBoost engines (see attached) and basically only the SHO is running more timing than the other engines.

Quote from: metroplex on August 02, 2016, 04:18:45 PM
I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet.

I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85

I would be concerned about seeing 7.5 because thats the stock limit of what the knock sensor can pull. If it needs to pull more, it can't. The only KR I want to see is at light loads on the stock tables because it's designed like that for emissions and fuel economy. I know you have seen the same thing at stock boost levels but what is safe at stock boost levels isn't necessarily safe with the boost cranked up.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 02, 2016, 04:25:39 PM

Quote from: metroplex on August 02, 2016, 04:18:45 PM
I've never touched the BKT or MBT spark tables and kept it all stock. I did look closely at that and it had me puzzled because I didn't see any Knock Retard at the same boost levels in 1st and 2nd gears, it's only occuring in 3rd gear but it isn't increasing. In all of my logs, it can go as high as 7.5* (the limit of KR) but it will steadily decrease as my RPMs increase in 3rd gear. It looks bad, but when I reviewed my 100% stock factory tune, it would run into the same levels of KR in the same situations but at stock boost levels (8-11 psi). Using 93 octane with the stock tune would result in reducing that knock retard by about 4-6 degrees, I haven't tried 93 octane with the increased boost yet.

I experimented with running different WOT lambdas to see if it'd have an impact on KR, but I didn't see any difference from 0.76 to 0.85

I would be concerned about seeing 7.5 because thats the stock limit of what the knock sensor can pull. If it needs to pull more, it can't. The only KR I want to see is at light loads on the stock tables because it's designed like that for emissions and fuel economy. I know you have seen the same thing at stock boost levels but what is safe at stock boost levels isn't necessarily safe with the boost cranked up.

Agreed in theory, but my factory stock tune would pull up to 7.5* as well (KR limit) and I mentioned this to AJPTurbo and other people without getting so much as an acknowledgement. After reading numerous threads on knock retard, it seems the bad knock retard is the one that climbs up and keeps climbing up. With the KR I'm seeing on the factory tune and on this tune, it climbs up and steadily drops only in 3rd gear. Using 93 octane alleviates the magnitude of the KR but there's still KR on the factory tune. I don't see much if any KR in 1st and 2nd gear running the same levels of boost or higher.

After comparing the SHO's factory BKT with the other EcoBoost engines' BKT's, it seems like Ford programmed in a bit more advance at the high load high RPM regions in the SHO than the other engines including the F-150's 3.5L EB. The Focus RS and Mustang 2.3L even have retarded timing at that region.

And here's a factory bone stock straight outta Chicago tune running 87 octane on a cold March day in Michigan, pulling 7.5* knock retard along with the tune I'm running at about the same speed/RPM/gear. The factory tune had more timing advance overall after the knock retard, but you can see the other tune flowing about 7 lb/min more air.

Most of what you're gaining with extra boost, you are turning around and loosing with retarded timing.

My car stock had ZERO KR recorded using 93 octane.  Couldn't tell you what it would do with 87 because I wouldn't put it in my tank.