Hello all. I have been a member for a while but I have not posted anything yet. I have used this forum as an excellent resource for my Hotrod. I currently have only an LMS 2,3,4 and 4+ tunes, gapped plugs and nothing else. I am running the 4 presently. I have a 2010 SHO built in September of 2009. I have had it since May of 2014. It has 109k on it now. I am having what feels like a miss under light acceleration from 1000 to about 2000 RPM. I can see the tack jumping about 250 RMP up and down. If I drop the hammer or try to accelerate more rapidly she goes fine. I replaced the plugs and they looked fine. It did not fix the problem. I had a top engine cleaning done and ran a can of BG cleaner though the tank. I then ran at least 6 tanks with LUCAS fuel injector cleaner. This was all done a week and a half ago. I had a trip to Florida, 3038 miles running cleaners the whole time. I have no codes and still the issue is unchanged. I checked in the intercooler with my dipstick and there is about 1/4 inch of oil in there. I jacked the driver side to check this. I could not suck it out because it was not enough. I don't know where to go from here. So before I go to the stealership I was hoping for some help. I know nothing about data logging or even how to read the results if i had the ability to do it. Does anyone think this will help? BTW switched back to stock tune and the problem is still there just not as pronounced.
I don't know anything about data logging either but I am sure someone will chime in. Based on what you are describing, I would be suspicious of a coil going bad. Obviously, you do not want to just start throwing parts at it, though.
Does anyone know what resistance the coils should be? I can check them. I have not read about coils being an issue but at 109k anything is possible. I would also think a coil would throw a code.
I haven't heard of many coil issues with the ecoboost, either. I based my comment on my experience with my last car - a Lincoln LS. When coils would begin to fail, the symptom was exactly what you describe. They would NEVER throw a code until they completely failed. Again, I am just throwing out one idea and it could certainly be wrong.
Welcome aboard the EBPF SHOme,Bruce is correct in fact that anything is possible considering the mileage on there,would also check to see if the COP have any rips or tears in them and would definitely change them for reassurance purposes and can be found fairly cheap,also did you notice any oil inside the spark plug wells? any leaks around the rear valve cover?might want to consider a new pcv valve,heres the link and thanks for joining. Z http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3422364&cc=1445050&jsn=410 (http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3422364&cc=1445050&jsn=410) http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,2010,taurus,3.5l+v6+turbocharged,1445050,ignition?a=Referer+www.searchlock.com+URL+%2F (http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,2010,taurus,3.5l+v6+turbocharged,1445050,ignition?a=Referer+www.searchlock.com+URL+%2F)
Quote from: SHOme on March 14, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Does anyone know what resistance the coils should be? I can check them. I have not read about coils being an issue but at 109k anything is possible. I would also think a coil would throw a code.
I don't know what they should be, but either way you will check them all. If one is way off the others then I would say you have your answer. I think it would be a good place to start.
Welcome, SHOme, glad to have you & your '10 SHO here! Can't datalog with the LME tuner, you would have to datalog independently with, for example, Forscan or Torque Pro connected via Bluetooth or WiFi to an OBD II data reader.
Anyhoo, two additional things to check:
1) the knock sensor wiring for chafing - problem is more prevalent on '10-'12 SHOs, and
2) any loose/cracked piping under the engine cover - can make it seem like an ignition/fuel problem
If all these items look OK, then you may have the beginnings of a fuel injector issue. These have been known to leak/fail.
Mine does this too sometimes going up a hill or using just enough throttle to do a 6th gear pass at around 60. Mine did it stock and tuned. My friend's stock Fusion EB does it as well.
I inspected under the hood and did not see any leaks, all the coil boost looked good and there was no oil in the pug wells. I will check the wire chaffing I did not know about that issue. How much money are we talking for the equipment to data log and do you think it would identify the problem?
If you have a smartphone or tablet (Android or iOS), the cost of entry is the reader, and the software. Depending on the reader you choose, your total in would be $30 - $85 at current pricing.
For example -
BAFX Products 34t5 Bluetooth: http://smile.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-34t5-Bluetooth-Android/dp/B005NLQAHS/ (http://smile.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-34t5-Bluetooth-Android/dp/B005NLQAHS/) - Android only
OBDLINK MX Bluetooth: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B006NZTZLQ (http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B006NZTZLQ) - Android only
Torque Pro: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque)
Forscan: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.astech.forscanlite (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.astech.forscanlite)
I would also check the condition of the wastegate hoses,they have a tendency to pop off sometimes because there is no clamp supplied by Ford,,its located right above the front bov,pics below. Z
Hoses look good. thanks.
It's hard to measure resistance correctly on COP ignition systems (need specialized tools to read waveforms), so can't really help you there. If there are no codes set, you don't even have a pointer to a particular cylinder being the problem.
BTW, what are the newest plugs gapped to, do you know? Should be 0.030. I take it you are still running the stock MAP sensors? Might be due for cleaning (use MAF sensor cleaner) and/or replacement.
Datalogging can be very tedious, but when you catch an event in progress, the EUREKA moment is well worth it :)
I did gap at .030 with an actual feeler gauge. It is stock sensor. I do have a three bar but no tune for it. So I haven't put it in yet. I contemplating meth and want to do it all at the same time. I am trying to get my local dealer to data log for me. I can make it happen anytime. It's not one of those phantom issues that never happens when it's being diagnosed.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
If you are involving your dealer, I think they can load test the coils and determine if one or more are failing. My dealer did that when I had the issue with my old Lincoln. Coils did not have to be removed for that test.
I think they call it a load balance test. Just had 2 coils and spark plugs replaced on my Flex do to misfires at only 34k.
I had my local friendly dealer perform a power balance with IDS Software to check for misfires. Z
Here is a look at COP issues in this older (unrelated) TSB:
http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/91549/coil-over-plug-misfire (http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/91549/coil-over-plug-misfire)
QuoteTSB's
Coil-over plug misfire
Posted on May 3, 2011 by Information provided by Identifix Inc.
This TSB addresses misfire diagnosis with Ford COP (coil-over-plug) ignition systems. This applies to Ford 1996-1999 Taurus SHO, 1998-2005 Crown Victoria and Mustang, 2000 Taurus, 2002-2005 Thunderbird, 2003-2005 Focus, 2004-2005 Taurus, 1997-2005 E-Series, Expedition and F-150, 1999-2005 F-Super Duty, 2000-2005 Excursion and F-53, 2001-2005 Escape, 2002-2005 Explorer; Lincoln 1997-1998 Mark VIII, 1998-2002 Continental, 1998-2005 Town Car, 2000-2005 LS, 1998-2005 Navigator, 2002-2003 Blackwood and 2003-2005 Aviator; Mercury 1998-2005 Grand Marquis, 2000 Sable, 2004-2005 Sable, and 2002-2005 Mountaineer.
According to Ford, approximately 50% of COP coils returned for warranty do not have a problem. The misfiring cylinder must be identified through self-test misfire codes or through WDS power balance. Rule out base engine problems, rule out fuel problems, and then look at ignition problems (be sure to rule out coil primary circuit issues). Once these concerns have been eliminated, the oscilloscope procedure outlined in this TSB can isolate the difference between a coil or a spark plug problem.
The optional WDS COP kit available through Rotunda will provide more accurate diagnosis and help reduce replacement of non-defective parts. The kit, P/N 418-FS528, can be purchased by calling 800-ROTUNDA.
The following procedure is for cylinder-specific misfires, and not random misfires. Misfire is defined as a misfiring cylinder that is lacking power relative to the other cylinders. The causes for a cylinder-specific misfire could include fuel, spark or mechanical problems.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL01-2.JPG)
Figure 1: Make sure that the coil being tested cannot spark to another surface
Perform a visual inspection. If no visible concerns are found, use the following WDS tools for misfire diagnosis:
Self test (check for codes first)
Power balance (identify the cylinder of concern)
Relative compression (rule out a possible mechanical issue)
Fuel (make sure that fuel injectors are not restricted)
Ignition (make sure that spark plugs and coils are working properly)
Oscilloscope (detailed signal analysis)
Note: Use the encyclopedia button in the lower left corner of the screen for detailed information on the WDS tool being displayed).
If there is a self-test code identifying a particular cylinder, you need to determine if it is a fuel, ignition or a mechanical problem. Proceed to Step 2 after running Relative Compression to rule out any mechanical problems. If there is no self-test codes, and the customer concern is a miss, proceed to Step 1.
STEP 1: Select the Toolbox icon, then Powertrain, then Power Balance.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL02-1.JPG)
Figure 2: Here, cylinder 2 has dropped.
The cylinder specific misfire must be identified as shown in Figure 2 in order to proceed with the remaining steps. If the miss does not occur at idle, try to brake-torque the engine. This extra loading should reproduce the miss in the bay. If the miss cannot be reproduced during brake torque, select Relative Compression under Powertrain on WDS before going on a road test to rule out mechanical problems. If Relative Compression shows a problem, the base engine issue must be resolved. If Relative Compression results are good, road test under as many different driving conditions as possible until the miss occurs on Power Balance. Some misses may be very intermittent, so be patient and concentrate on steady load conditions. Once a cylinder dropout is identified, proceed to Step 2.
STEP 2: (Select Toolbox icon, then Powertrain, the Fuel System Test)
Run the Fuel System Test on WDS to determine if there may be a fuel problem. After completing the fuel Pressure/Leakdown test, select Injector Flow to isolate a restricted injector (Figure 4). If all injectors are within specification, proceed to Step 3.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL04-1.JPG)
Figure 4: This example shows a restricted No. 2 injector.
STEP 3: (Select Toolbox icon, then powertrain, then Ignition System Test)
Run the Ignition System Test on WDS to determine if there is an ignition problem. Look at both duration (DUR) and kilovolts (KV) and look for values that stand out from the rest.
Note: Live display must average ignition values because there is too much data to display. Make a capture to view each engine event without averaging. This can be helpful when the problem is intermittent and does not show up in ignition. Proceed to Step 4 (if either spark duration or peak KV on the Red probe (Suspect Cylinder) are offset from the values displayed on the Black probe (Known Good Cylinder), then the problem is in the ignition system. Rule out coil primary circuit issues before proceeding to coil secondary issues such as the spark plug, coil boot, or possibly the coil. Use the WDS Oscilloscope with the COP kit to determine if the issue is the coil or the spark plug.
STEP 4: (Select Toolbox, then Oscilloscope)
Warning: Secondary ignition voltages are very high. Keep hands and tools away from the end of the coil that supplies the spark.
Set-up: With the engine off, pull the suspect coil from the cylinder well and turn it upside-down so that the coil cannot spark to any other surface, as shown in Figure 1. Wrap a clean shop cloth around the hard shell of the coil to help keep the coil propped up and stable. Caution: The coil boot can be damaged if the coil sparks to another surface.
Keep the coil connected to the harness and leave the WDS COP clip attached to the coil. Route the coil clip wire and cable away from the coil being tested, as well as other coils, to avoid noise interference. Disconnect the injector of the cylinder being tested to prevent raw fuel from washing the cylinder. This is a stress test for the coil. The type of waveform displayed on the oscilloscope will show whether a coil or spark plug is the problem, if all previous steps have been followed.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL07-1.JPG)
Figure 7: Example of a good waveform.
COP Stress Test Procedure: Go to the Oscilloscope Tool and select Channel 3, then select Auto, then select COP_STRESS_TEST_RED. This pre-configured setting will zoom-in on the peak firing of the coil being tested. Start the engine and be sure that the coil is not sparking to any surface. If the coil does spark to other surfaces, immediately turn the engine off and re-adjust the coil. Restart the engine and touch the Red Man icon to start the oscilloscope. All settings are pre-configured and no adjustments are necessary. Compare the waveform you see with the examples provided in Figures 7, 8 and 9. Figure 7 shows a good waveform. If your waveform is similar to Figure 7, the coil is working correctly. Suspect the spark plug.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL08-1.JPG)
Figure 8: Example of a problem coil.
Figures 8 and 9 are examples of problem coils. Replace the coil if your waveform is similar to Figure 8 or 9.
(http://images.autoserviceprofessional.com/post/M-COIL09-1.JPG)
Figure 9: This example shows a more dramatic fault in the peak failure.
Power Balance Test & Mode 6 Data
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1GoUw2oFZU#)
Ford Coil On Plug Misfire Quick Diagnosis Methods
FordTechMakuloco
I have an appointment friday. Thanks for all the information. I will report back the findings. Hopefully it won't break the bank. I hate to do it but it seems this will save me from replacing parts unnecessarily. I call this paying for an education.
Good luck!
I would simply ask the service advisor how much it would be for a Diagnostic fee and best of luck. Z
I would follow Z's advice.
Quote from: 66 Galaxie on March 15, 2016, 09:36:05 AM
I would follow Z's advice.
Thanks Galaxie,think there's even a
hello fee which is compounded on top,lol,always ask how much before releasing your keys,especially with no warranty,just dont like any unexpected surprises. Z
Ok . I missed Fridays appointment but it is there now. Just got the $$$ call. They believe it is a torque converter but the trans guy is to busy to verify it today. Stay tuned.
Trans tech is 2 weeks out. i may take it somewhere else.
SHOme is there a Lincoln service dept near you,think they might give you a broader inside perspective on the matter. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on March 21, 2016, 02:03:29 PM
SHOme is there a Lincoln service dept near you,think they might give you a broader inside perspective on the matter. Z
x2.
Unfortunately the dealer is a Ford and Lincoln dealer. I have been thinking if the Torque converter is bad i probably should have the tranny rebuilt while its out. At 110k of spirited driving. What is your thoughts?
I'm not sure but have you confirmed that the converter is actually the culprit? Were they able to find any codes to confirm the issue. Z
not yet. trying to decide if i should wait 2 weeks for ford or take it to a local trusted tranny shop.
I would honestly wait IMHO,unless you can find another Ford/lincoln dealer,if indeed its the TC do not drive the car that much because the converter can overheat and also since operates in conjunction with the PCM a dealer visit might be needed for programming. Any codes yet? Z
No codes yet. The dealer accused me of deleting them when i put the stock tune in.
Quote from: SHOme on March 23, 2016, 01:19:45 PM
No codes yet. The dealer accused me of deleting them when i put the stock tune in.
Its crucial to monitor for codes everyday in order to get an idea whats exactly going on and not speculation or until the dealer can verify your your complain,there is also a TSB associated with your vehicle. Z
TSB #SB-21430NHTSA ID #10034629
Date Announced:
JULY 01 2010
Additional Info:
How to Fix
Summary: FORD/LINCOLN: TRANSMISSION BUILT BEFORE 6/1/10 WITH 4TH GEAR START, DELAY/HESITATION ON ACCELERATION FROM A STOP-NO DTCS. THIS MAY BE CAUSED BY A STICKING MULTIPLEX SHIFT VALVE IN THE VALVE BODY. *PE
Ill have to check but I think I had this done at about 30K. From a stop it would sometime bang into gear so hard I thought someone hit me. It involved removing a ball from the valve body. Man I hope my problem is something a simple as that.
Heres are the TSB for the 10-12 SHO. Z http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,496.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,496.html)
Well unfortunately the trans tech confirmed its the TC. He said its not bad and suggested some snake oil. Thoughts?
What did they recommend adding? some members have used Lucas. Z http://lucasoil.com/products/transmission-products (http://lucasoil.com/products/transmission-products) http://lucasoil.com/products/gear-oil/anti-squawk-anti-shudder-additive (http://lucasoil.com/products/gear-oil/anti-squawk-anti-shudder-additive) http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Anti-squawk.pdf (http://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Anti-squawk.pdf)
He said there is a TSB or something for the F150. They use Motorcraft XL16. He said it is 2 part and only use the maroon tube. ever heard of this?
XL16 appears to be a transmission fluid modifier, while XL17 is an engine oil modifier. I don't think XL16 significantly different from the Lubegard Shudder Fixx in its' function, and so in theory, it should work if the problem is in its' early stages. Could be worth a shot if you are out of powertrain warranty/don't have ESP warranty.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416mVONAYuL.jpg)
Quote from: SHOme on April 05, 2016, 09:24:00 AM
He said there is a TSB or something for the F150. They use Motorcraft XL16. He said it is 2 part and only use the maroon tube. ever heard of this?
Whats the Damage $$$$ . Z
$35 for the XL16, $3500 for TQ, $6200 for Tranny.
Quote from: SHOme on April 05, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
$35 for the XL16, $3500 for TQ, $6200 for Tranny.
Hopefully it resolves your issues and much cheaper than a regular oil change from the dealer. Z
Hope it's the $35 solution that works. Did they give you any insight as to how they tested it?
Remember to start saving $$$ for a real repair. The fluids will
be like using STP to stop excess blowby in older cars... The part is worn and will eventually fail.
Agreed. The additive will just be a bandaid...
I guess the old saying there's no fix in a can theory but hopefully it helps a bit,recall long ago when the big (slick-50 hype) ended up being crap,urine.lol Z
I'm having the exact same issue with my Flex right now, however my flex has only 50,000 miles on it and its till under the powertrain warranty. So the car is currently at the dealer and the preliminary diagnosis is also the torque converter. They have had it for one full day now, i'm curious to see what the final diagnosis is on either car.
If a TC failure is diagnosed, I wonder if we will ever know WHAT led up to it? If we know what led up to it, we can devise preventive maintenance around it ...
I spoke with a non-dealer trans tech yesterday and he said there is a solenoid valve that pulses the converter 1000s of time a minute. He said it is not uncommon that both the solenoid and the converter go bad because which ever one fails it overheats the other. This is interesting because the tran tech at Sheehy Ford mentioned the valve body may need replaced as well.
What remanufactured transmission would you guys recommend?
Ford & Jasper come immediately to mind, I am sure there are others out there.
The flex is still at the dealer, they are now changing out the transmission due to finding hot spots on the clutches. This is crazy because on the old trans before they made a decision they changed the valve body, multiple solenoids and the toque converter. i understand Fords reason for this but in this case to be cost effective looks like they should have just changed out the trans and saved 2 weeks and all those parts. Its going to be funny when they get the new trans in and its still shuddering because the PTU is broken.
Well, I hope the new trans is the real fix, SoCal! If not, you might just get your wish with a new PTU :D
Well I fixed my tranny problem. I traded it on a 2014 with PP. I guess I need to update my sig.
Definitely one way to resolve ... Congrats, put up some pics and details!
Congrats SHOme and hopefully its a SHO of a lifetime,enjoy. Z :)