Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:27:49 AM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:27:49 AM
Same issue as the cold weather KR. Seems like as soon as the temperature gets around 30 and winter blend kicks in, this comes up. Tuned back down to 87 until gas gets better and temp goes up so I don't blow another motor....
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 12:40:18 AM
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 12:40:18 AM
Knock sensor wires? That was one of the causes of the false KR, so securing them might help here.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:05:49 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:05:49 PM
mine are inspcted and wire loomed. only happens when the above two conditions exist.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on December 04, 2016, 12:13:48 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on December 04, 2016, 12:13:48 PM
Have any data logs?
I dont think winter blend is as much of a problem as people think...maybe if you are on the ragged edge but I doubt your lms tune is
I dont think winter blend is as much of a problem as people think...maybe if you are on the ragged edge but I doubt your lms tune is
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:33:28 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 12:33:28 PM
not setup for any decent logging. I just put the 87 tune i have from lms and it doesn't happen any more. Also see my ltf trims are a good amount higher +13 to +15.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 02:49:29 PM
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 02:49:29 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on December 04, 2016, 12:13:48 PM
Have any data logs?
I dont think winter blend is as much of a problem as people think...maybe if you are on the ragged edge but I doubt your lms tune is
I agree.
Listen -- I've had on and off problems with my LMS tune since I bought it two and a half years ago. I think the tunes are excellent -- when it's warm and you have good traction. I honestly think the problem is one of these things:
#1 bent rims, cold tires, low air, or unbalanced tires setting off the traction control. What does your tire pressure look like? When was the last time you had your tires balanced? How bad was the wobble? Mine was pretty bad.
#2 Steering angle sensor issues - Since I had the car, my car would bust out a C1B00 DTC every once in a while. While I highly DOUBT that this is the case, its still different than a "healthy car". Perhaps its messing with the torque vectoring exposing a bug in the ECU under higher boost / RPM?
#3 The tune. I've had popping / hesitation on summer gas, winter gas, small blend of E85 gas, with octane booster, and with 89 / 91 / 93 octane gas. I had problems with the 91 2bar / 91 3 bar / 93 2 bar and 93 3 bar tunes with this hesitation. Version 8 - whatever it is now. It's fine while stock, just the tune is amplifying something.
When you think of what's changed -- you have to ask ATPturbo and LMS to be certain, but I think its only torque based and transmission line pressure (shift points too). Something just isn't happy with the car.
I am not bashing LMS. I think they provide excellent customer service. I also think my video blog pissed a few people off and they somewhat gave up on finding the root cause of my vehicle. That's neither here nor there, after I changed my front tires to the back, I've had very little problems with the car; so I'm just blaming it on that..
#4 I know there are a few tuning companies out there that have good results. Sabtaj has the unleashed tune, and he's had none of the problems I've had. Granted he runs different tires, rims, and is doing the whole E85 / meth / crazy tune route. He just showed me a video of him going head to head with a hellcat -- close race too :)
Good luck -- I hope I've helped you.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 04:57:55 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 04:57:55 PM
Has be gas/tune related. I've done a lot of troubleshooting on the last engine and the only thing that fixed it in the winter was buying race gas.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 05:17:20 PM
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 05:17:20 PM
Hmm. Maybe MMO or TC-W3 or another Upper Cylinder Lubricant might work as well, working it from the fueling side.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on December 04, 2016, 05:24:15 PM
Post by: ZSHO on December 04, 2016, 05:24:15 PM
Have you tried a gas additive such as Torco,RP,Heet(yellow bottle) to the mix to see if it helps any. Z http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/max-boost-octane-booster-fuel-stabilizer/ (http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/max-boost-octane-booster-fuel-stabilizer/)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on December 04, 2016, 07:23:53 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on December 04, 2016, 07:23:53 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 04:57:55 PM
Has be gas/tune related. I've done a lot of troubleshooting on the last engine and the only thing that fixed it in the winter was buying race gas.
Really dont want to be blending E ....and if you weren't then its simply the tune, winter blend fuel isnt a problem maybe a problem in the tune is exaggerated in the cold....people want to blame KR on the winter fuel but i can tell you the iat compensations for cold temps are aggressive and maybe add too much spark which will have to be pulled back out as KR
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
Only use Shell 93 so my opinion is also that its a tune issue. Probably not worth it for LMS to fix it for the couple of us having these issues.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 07:31:46 PM
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 07:31:46 PM
Would be interesting to see if people that have implemented the AJP tune/mod are experiencing this also. I know people running Unleashed tunes do so it's definitely not an LME vs Unleashed type thing.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on December 04, 2016, 08:28:35 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on December 04, 2016, 08:28:35 PM
I haven't done major driving/dogging on my car in the cold, but can say I have noticed no hesitations/stutters/issues with my AJP tune. I noticed no issue on the pump gas tune a while back, and still have no issue running an E20 tune with the mods in my sig.
In fact, the last 5 revisions or so worth of logs I have sent to Brad were with ambient between 30 and 45 degrees F. I see, at most, 2.5 degrees of KR after just refilling the car -if the mix is a bit off- OR after loading a new revisions when the learning is occuring. Once the trims are all set, max KR is 1.5 degrees or so.
In fact, the last 5 revisions or so worth of logs I have sent to Brad were with ambient between 30 and 45 degrees F. I see, at most, 2.5 degrees of KR after just refilling the car -if the mix is a bit off- OR after loading a new revisions when the learning is occuring. Once the trims are all set, max KR is 1.5 degrees or so.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 04:57:55 PM
Has be gas/tune related. I've done a lot of troubleshooting on the last engine and the only thing that fixed it in the winter was buying race gas.
Have you checked your tire pressure lately? Cold weather will lower your tire pressure. I know you know this, but it doesn't HAVE to be the TUNE. I ran my head against the same wall -- ask anyone here -- I'm just trying to save you a headache.
My popping & hesitation, went away with my LMS tune when I moved my bent front rim to the rear. In fact, I didn't even know it was bent or had issues. I didn't feel it in the steering, nor on the car while driving. But put it on the wheel balance and holy hell it shakes.
I'm assuming you have a non-PP -- which I'm finding my non-PP is WAAAAAY more sensitive to wheel slip. Even when you turn traction control off, it still goes retarded in certain conditions. That feeling of when your wheels are slipping with ETC on and traction control activates, is the same hesitation you're feeling at high RPM.
I've driven my SHO for about 65k on the LMS tune. All I can tell you is from my extensive and exhaustive posts on this issue-- and fighting with LMS... and fighting with other forum members.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 10:05:06 PM
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 10:05:06 PM
Articles that I've posted here about this exact issue:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html) (this one got a little out of control -- Livernois piped in and it got a little ugly lol)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html) (this one got a little out of control -- Livernois piped in and it got a little ugly lol)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 10:17:40 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 10:17:40 PM
I am familiar with it acting weird with traction issues but I know that is not the issue here. Happens on both sets of wheels which I just swapped for my winter set. Happens at 30 mph but more noticeable at higher speeds as the gear holds longer around the top of the rpm range, it feels like it just looses power in a series of spots. It is usually intermittent and will happen once then not repeat itself until I am not trying to reproduce it. I also have high KR (6) right now but not when in boost usually between 0 and 5 points of vacuum. It ran fine until I noticed LOR started dropping, at (-5) now and as I have said, close to freezing temperatures. Non such issues occur on the 87 3bar tune I have from LMS. I also haven't gained the courage to run the 93 octane tune so this was happening on the 91 octane tune while running Shell Nitro+ 93.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 10:39:18 PM
Post by: SHOdded on December 04, 2016, 10:39:18 PM
Shouldn't happen on the 91 tune for sure with Nitro. Any possibility this is bad fuel, or has this happened over multiple tanks?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: DerricksSho on December 04, 2016, 10:48:21 PM
Post by: DerricksSho on December 04, 2016, 10:48:21 PM
ive wrote a post about this as well feels like my car is miss only at WOT. Ive spent quite a bit on replacing things thinking it was mechanical because that is what LMS said. A lot happen in a week I tried some VP racing fuel, weather got cold and had a custom exhaust done. car ran decent when it was warm. iit Had middle section of exhaust done just not the axle back.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on December 04, 2016, 11:06:06 PM
Post by: ZSHO on December 04, 2016, 11:06:06 PM
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on December 04, 2016, 10:05:06 PMI think you clearly made your point on your above mentioned post and quite frankly don't see the need to bring up these past discussions unless you truly enjoy stirring the pot. Z
Articles that I've posted here about this exact issue:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5747.0.html) (this one got a little out of control -- Livernois piped in and it got a little ugly lol)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.msg91980.html#msg91980)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6688.msg103612.html#msg103612)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 11:23:02 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 04, 2016, 11:23:02 PM
Quote
I think you clearly made your point on your above mentioned post and quite frankly don't see the need to bring up these past discussions unless you truly enjoy stirring the pot. Z
No pot stirring, I just wish I had this info to read a year ago when I first noticed. I understand that a box tune is never perfect but I also would like to know that this is happening to more than 1 car so I can just run an 87 tune until spring without loosing my mind that my car is F'ed up lol.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 09:41:29 AM
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 09:41:29 AM
Have you tried contacting LME about the issues your having? IMHO they have always done the right thing by me from A-Z and you certainly can request a custom tune to adjust some parameters in respect to your tune and add some tweaks to the base Cal and best of luck to ya. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 05, 2016, 09:50:51 AM
Post by: polskifacet on December 05, 2016, 09:50:51 AM
I did around the beginning of the year and then they released v10. I may contact them but want to give them as much info as possible as it seems they have widdled it down but there are still a handful of people who have some funkyness.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on December 05, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on December 05, 2016, 12:03:33 PM
I am very sorry to hear of this. Please shoot us an email or give us a call so we can look into this further for you and anyone else that is having trouble with their tunes as well for that matter. If the LOR has dropped noticeably and the kr has increased, I would definitely try getting fuel from another station and possibly try throwing in a few gallons of higher octane fuel as another member on here mentioned if available, to see if the issues have been alleviated. I also wanted to mention that it's worth trying a different fuel station for guys that have suddenly developed an issue that was not there when the initially loaded their tune. We've had experiences with sub par fuel even from the top tier or best stations in town, this time of year especially. I can honestly tell you that the no name station on the busiest corner of town always has the best gas in our area. They have lower prices than most and are in a great location, so it's that station that always has a line to get to the pumps during rush hour everyday. We have been using this station to get 93 pump gas for cars on the dyno here and have never had issues with a single fill.
What some people don't take into account is that those top tier / big name stations typically cost more and therefore do not have as many people filling up with premium there. So their gas may be sitting in the ground longer than the brand X station down the street that has fresh fuel coming in twice as often due to volume. So if you have always been using the same station and notice your vehicle's performance suddenly taking a change for the worse, by process of elimination that would be the 1st thing to try if you haven't already.
Don't get me wrong, I"m not blaming the fuel or the station for the issues that the vehicle has started experiencing , just wanted to share the experience that I have seen over the years with different fuel stations and winter weather as well. Also keep in mind that in years passed we had released cold weather specific tunes when needed, but the version 10 tunes did not have cold weather issues reported last winter after it's release in the fall of 2015. We can however make adjustments to the tuning if needed to offset what ever issues the cold weather has brought to the table. We just need to know about the issues or we cannot do anything to help.
What some people don't take into account is that those top tier / big name stations typically cost more and therefore do not have as many people filling up with premium there. So their gas may be sitting in the ground longer than the brand X station down the street that has fresh fuel coming in twice as often due to volume. So if you have always been using the same station and notice your vehicle's performance suddenly taking a change for the worse, by process of elimination that would be the 1st thing to try if you haven't already.
Don't get me wrong, I"m not blaming the fuel or the station for the issues that the vehicle has started experiencing , just wanted to share the experience that I have seen over the years with different fuel stations and winter weather as well. Also keep in mind that in years passed we had released cold weather specific tunes when needed, but the version 10 tunes did not have cold weather issues reported last winter after it's release in the fall of 2015. We can however make adjustments to the tuning if needed to offset what ever issues the cold weather has brought to the table. We just need to know about the issues or we cannot do anything to help.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Do you believe that the fuel stations are lying about the octane rating on the pump when winter fuel is in use?...I don't
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on December 05, 2016, 12:35:59 PM
Post by: polskifacet on December 05, 2016, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Do you believe that the fuel stations are lying about the octane rating on the pump when winter fuel is in use?...I don't
I do believe that in Chicago a lot more sh*t gets through just because of sheer volume, the station I use is the best I can get, it was recently built so it has new tanks, I have tried others and get worse LOR and the same result. I also believe that the tune can be massaged to account for this. I don't know what to do, without pro logging, I don't like throwing "my sh*t don't work, fix it" at LMS. Would be neat if there was a obd logger they could send out with an sdcard and have actual data to look at.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on December 05, 2016, 12:45:32 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on December 05, 2016, 12:45:32 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on December 05, 2016, 12:35:59 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Do you believe that the fuel stations are lying about the octane rating on the pump when winter fuel is in use?...I don't
I do believe that in Chicago a lot more sh*t gets through just because of sheer volume, the station I use is the best I can get, it was recently built so it has new tanks, I have tried others and get worse LOR and the same result. I also believe that the tune can be massaged to account for this. I don't know what to do, without pro logging, I don't like throwing "my sh*t don't work, fix it" at LMS. Would be neat if there was a obd logger they could send out with an sdcard and have actual data to look at.
You mean like an SCT X4?
Only somewhat joking here...
If you need the ability to log, I would suggest finding a used SCT X4 (as it is much simpler to log with than an X3) and keeping that with you. As long as it is unlocked, and possibly even if locked, it will be able to datalog the car. The X4 also has the gauges on the datalog screen which is nice. Once the logs are saved you can look over them on your own laptop as well as send them to LME (not sure if they use them or not, as I have not had them tune, and I know they use their own proprietary tuner).
You can always use the SCT to get custom tunes/change canned tune parameters (tire size, gear ratio, etc.) on another ford in the stable as well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on December 05, 2016, 12:49:28 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on December 05, 2016, 12:49:28 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Do you believe that the fuel stations are lying about the octane rating on the pump when winter fuel is in use?...I don't
Not saying the fuel stations are lying or selling garbage fuel occasionally on purpose , no. But some stations have water / condensation in their fuel occasionally which can cause a lot of trouble even in bone stock vehicles. This is why I keep a bottle of Heet water remover / fuel line antifreeze in my Car, truck , and snowmobiles all winter long. They wouldn't sell the stuff if fuel stations never had moisture of some sort water in their fuel on occasions. Not sure if you have ever had a fuel line freeze or water in your fuel, but it happens here in Michigan, especially in rural parts up north when traveling or snowmobiling more often than some would think. Most all avid winter motorsports / powersports enthusiasts would agree, keeping water remover / gas line antifreeze or something equivalent handy is pretty much standard. So using a busy station usually means their fuel has had less time to sit in the ground and collect moisture.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 01:31:05 PM
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 01:31:05 PM
I all fairness LME was kind enough to chime in and offer there support to the OP and he should contact them for a viable solution and we should all respect that,until then we need to move on and dont want to see this topic steer off course,the same rule applies to any such tuning co/vendor on this forum. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on December 05, 2016, 08:13:56 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on December 05, 2016, 08:13:56 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on December 05, 2016, 12:49:28 PMNot to mention sometimes drivers mix up the grades when filling the underground tanks.Quote from: AJP turbo on December 05, 2016, 12:10:25 PM
Do you believe that the fuel stations are lying about the octane rating on the pump when winter fuel is in use?...I don't
Not saying the fuel stations are lying or selling garbage fuel occasionally on purpose , no. But some stations have water / condensation in their fuel occasionally which can cause a lot of trouble even in bone stock vehicles. This is why I keep a bottle of Heet water remover / fuel line antifreeze in my Car, truck , and snowmobiles all winter long. They wouldn't sell the stuff if fuel stations never had moisture of some sort water in their fuel on occasions. Not sure if you have ever had a fuel line freeze or water in your fuel, but it happens here in Michigan, especially in rural parts up north when traveling or snowmobiling more often than some would think. Most all avid winter motorsports / powersports enthusiasts would agree, keeping water remover / gas line antifreeze or something equivalent handy is pretty much standard. So using a busy station usually means their fuel has had less time to sit in the ground and collect moisture.
I've also heard tales of unscrupulous owners paying off drivers to do so.
If this is normal, I would email the company, not the station, and let them know what is going on.
You can run 2 bottles of HEET and since it's straight meth its also an octane booster. If it isn't fuel quality related
it could actually add to your woe as meth has a very low stoich point (6ish) and will add to a fuel demand issue.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 05, 2016, 08:35:27 PM
Post by: 14SHOCAR on December 05, 2016, 08:35:27 PM
*cough* It's not the fuel *cough*
I do appreciate LMS and how they are attentive to the forums. Like I said, they have GREAT customer service.
I do appreciate LMS and how they are attentive to the forums. Like I said, they have GREAT customer service.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 10:45:56 PM
Post by: ZSHO on December 05, 2016, 10:45:56 PM
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on December 05, 2016, 08:35:27 PMBrenton "keep it real"my friend. Z
*cough* It's not the fuel *cough*
I do appreciate LMS and how they are attentive to the forums. Like I said, they have GREAT customer service.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on December 05, 2016, 11:43:25 PM
Post by: SHOdded on December 05, 2016, 11:43:25 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 05, 2016, 08:13:56 PMGreat idea!
You can run 2 bottles of HEET and since it's straight meth its also an octane booster. If it isn't fuel quality related
it could actually add to your woe as meth has a very low stoich point (6ish) and will add to a fuel demand issue.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 04, 2017, 09:57:16 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 04, 2017, 09:57:16 PM
At least there is a workaround :(
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 11:27:56 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 11:27:56 PM
I don't mind the issue so much as making sure my sh*t doesn't blow up again. LMS doesn't sound too concerned in the emails, they haven't said that the hesitation is a concern for damage. Also seems like they know the root cause but it requires a lot of massaging to make my car happy.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 06:40:42 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 06:40:42 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 11:27:56 PM
I don't mind the issue so much as making sure my sh*t doesn't blow up again. LMS doesn't sound too concerned in the emails, they haven't said that the hesitation is a concern for damage. Also seems like they know the root cause but it requires a lot of massaging to make my car happy.
Hmmm historically when these cars hesitate under wot it's due to a fuel pressure issue. Once the trims max out during a WOT run, the throttle closes down and/or the ECU opens up the waste gates all the way so all the boost gets jettisoned.
You could just rely on the built in safe guards to keep everything from going kaboom...
I would log it to see what is going on. Not sure if you can log with the mycal and send it to LMS for a diag?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 12:02:17 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 12:02:17 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
Derfdog15... depends on what you want right? If you want a tune that is pushing the limits of your cars fuel system to get the maximum amount power, then obviously when there are major temperature changes, that tune will greatly affect how the car performs...
Say you tune it to the ragged edge of your fuel system in the summer, ambient temps are 90F... you take the same tune and you are going to have fuel issues in the winter when it hits 19F...
When Brad tuned my car, I had a winter and summer tune just for that reason. The winter tune had a bit less boost to compensate for the colder more dense air which is harder on the fuel system...
Same thing with Unleashed, when I had Torrie tune my car in the winter, the tune was much milder. Come summer, I asked for a retune and he was able to tune it more aggressively due to the warmer air.
LMS has several different tunes for the SHO as well... and A LOT of guys detune their SHO's using various stages for winter months just for that reason.
If you want an all year around tune that's fine, its just not going to be that most aggressive tune out there. There are a lot of reasons for having multiple tunes for different climates...
In short, before calling out a tuner for a tune that might best perform in milder weather, perhaps there are reasons for that...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 12:15:10 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 12:15:10 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
It all depends on what you are looking for in a tune. Like you say, the weather can vary quite a bit from day to day, especially in the upper midwest.
A large quantity of our customers run a lower octane tune in the winter to compensate for winter blends and driving conditions. Running a "summer tune" on 93 octane at WOT in 20 degree weather and 3 inches of snow seems like a very rare circumstance. We strive to work with the customer to fit all needs but very rarely will there be an instance where ONE tune fits EVERYONE'S needs. Unfortunately it sounds like we are unable to accommodate your tuning needs, we apologize about that. As for our customers on this thread we will continue to offer the utmost level of support available for all your tuning needs and we hope to solve this issue for you in a timely fashion.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 12:33:19 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 12:02:17 PMQuote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
Derfdog15... depends on what you want right? If you want a tune that is pushing the limits of your cars fuel system to get the maximum amount power, then obviously when there are major temperature changes, that tune will greatly affect how the car performs...
Say you tune it to the ragged edge of your fuel system in the summer, ambient temps are 90F... you take the same tune and you are going to have fuel issues in the winter when it hits 19F...
When Brad tuned my car, I had a winter and summer tune just for that reason. The winter tune had a bit less boost to compensate for the colder more dense air which is harder on the fuel system...
Same thing with Unleashed, when I had Torrie tune my car in the winter, the tune was much milder. Come summer, I asked for a retune and he was able to tune it more aggressively due to the warmer air.
LMS has several different tunes for the SHO as well... and A LOT of guys detune their SHO's using various stages for winter months just for that reason.
If you want an all year around tune that's fine, its just not going to be that most aggressive tune out there. There are a lot of reasons for having multiple tunes for different climates...
In short, before calling out a tuner for a tune that might best perform in milder weather, perhaps there are reasons for that...
I get exactly what you are saying, and for sure will revise whatever tune in the summer for the track, BUT I feel that in this specific instance, where fuel may be the concern, and OP seems a bit annoyed about the issue in the cold, that it would make sense for them to make the tune more cold weather oriented. Just my .02
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 12:15:10 PMQuote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
It all depends on what you are looking for in a tune. Like you say, the weather can vary quite a bit from day to day, especially in the upper midwest.
A large quantity of our customers run a lower octane tune in the winter to compensate for winter blends and driving conditions. Running a "summer tune" on 93 octane at WOT in 20 degree weather and 3 inches of snow seems like a very rare circumstance. We strive to work with the customer to fit all needs but very rarely will there be an instance where ONE tune fits EVERYONE'S needs. Unfortunately it sounds like we are unable to accommodate your tuning needs, we apologize about that. As for our customers on this thread we will continue to offer the utmost level of support available for all your tuning needs and we hope to solve this issue for you in a timely fashion.
understood, it just seems that the particular customer is wanting to be able to run his 93 tune in the cold, seems the utmost level of customer service would entail working on his tune so that he can run his 93 octane tune in the winter, and possibly offering him some form of 'winter' tune.
Again, I see the benefits completely of tunes for different conditions, heck, pro racers tweak there tunes every time they run at the track to compensate for differences in weather, etc. it just seems in the OPs case that he is annoyed he has to run a 91 octane tune on his tank of 93. LME knows where I stand, but I do hope you guys can get him sorted out. I have seem some pretty nice tunes come from you guys, so it seems a shame he is upset/inconvenienced is all. And more-so seems a bit rude to pass the buck of a tune issue he sees to the weather conditions.
P.S. maybe that new HPFP can sway me to a bit more favorable view of LME as well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 05, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 05, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 12:33:19 PMI'm pretty confident LME will ultimately come thru with a probable fix for the OP and would contact Anthony at tuning@livernoismotorsports.com. ZQuote from: StealBlueSho on January 05, 2017, 12:02:17 PMQuote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
Derfdog15... depends on what you want right? If you want a tune that is pushing the limits of your cars fuel system to get the maximum amount power, then obviously when there are major temperature changes, that tune will greatly affect how the car performs...
Say you tune it to the ragged edge of your fuel system in the summer, ambient temps are 90F... you take the same tune and you are going to have fuel issues in the winter when it hits 19F...
When Brad tuned my car, I had a winter and summer tune just for that reason. The winter tune had a bit less boost to compensate for the colder more dense air which is harder on the fuel system...
Same thing with Unleashed, when I had Torrie tune my car in the winter, the tune was much milder. Come summer, I asked for a retune and he was able to tune it more aggressively due to the warmer air.
LMS has several different tunes for the SHO as well... and A LOT of guys detune their SHO's using various stages for winter months just for that reason.
If you want an all year around tune that's fine, its just not going to be that most aggressive tune out there. There are a lot of reasons for having multiple tunes for different climates...
In short, before calling out a tuner for a tune that might best perform in milder weather, perhaps there are reasons for that...
I get exactly what you are saying, and for sure will revise whatever tune in the summer for the track, BUT I feel that in this specific instance, where fuel may be the concern, and OP seems a bit annoyed about the issue in the cold, that it would make sense for them to make the tune more cold weather oriented. Just my .02Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 12:15:10 PMQuote from: derfdog15 on January 05, 2017, 11:38:44 AMQuote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 05, 2017, 11:32:25 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 04, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Quick update. Got new tunes from LMS. Problem seemed to be fixed but then the temp dropped to 13f. Same issue had to reflash to 91 octane tune. couple wot pulls seemed ok.
I suggest continued contact with the tuning department in regards to this. Unfortunately we get to a point where battling weather can become a hassle. We never know if we are going to have ten 13 degree days or one day of that. Chasing weather gremlins can lead us down the rabbit hole.
What about the benefits of cold weather tuning though(such as finding limits of the car). If my tuner told me we were going to abandon tuning/not worry about an issue due to weather (especially cold weather - worst case fueling scenarios on the GDI Ecoboosts) I would be pretty upset and look elsewhere. If you can get the car running optimally in the cold, with regards to fuel pressures, boost, etc then you KNOW it can run just as well or better in warmer conditions. ie. there is a little margin left in my fuel at WOT currently, and with 10 degree ambients, so I KNOW my car will run, without any issue in warmer spring/summer weather when it is going down the track.
I don't want to have to mess with running a different tune for winter, or a lower octane tune due to fuel quality issues, or weather. As you said, one day it may be 50 degrees, the next its 20 degrees when I leave for work and there is snow on the ground. I don't have time to load a different tune each day, or worry about doing so.
It all depends on what you are looking for in a tune. Like you say, the weather can vary quite a bit from day to day, especially in the upper midwest.
A large quantity of our customers run a lower octane tune in the winter to compensate for winter blends and driving conditions. Running a "summer tune" on 93 octane at WOT in 20 degree weather and 3 inches of snow seems like a very rare circumstance. We strive to work with the customer to fit all needs but very rarely will there be an instance where ONE tune fits EVERYONE'S needs. Unfortunately it sounds like we are unable to accommodate your tuning needs, we apologize about that. As for our customers on this thread we will continue to offer the utmost level of support available for all your tuning needs and we hope to solve this issue for you in a timely fashion.
understood, it just seems that the particular customer is wanting to be able to run his 93 tune in the cold, seems the utmost level of customer service would entail working on his tune so that he can run his 93 octane tune in the winter, and possibly offering him some form of 'winter' tune.
Again, I see the benefits completely of tunes for different conditions, heck, pro racers tweak there tunes every time they run at the track to compensate for differences in weather, etc. it just seems in the OPs case that he is annoyed he has to run a 91 octane tune on his tank of 93. LME knows where I stand, but I do hope you guys can get him sorted out. I have seem some pretty nice tunes come from you guys, so it seems a shame he is upset/inconvenienced is all. And more-so seems a bit rude to pass the buck of a tune issue he sees to the weather conditions.
P.S. maybe that new HPFP can sway me to a bit more favorable view of LME as well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 05, 2017, 05:56:22 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 05, 2017, 05:56:22 PM
There are valid points in all these posts. I am/have been working with Anthony and Ethan and they are very on-top of the issue communication wise. I scheduled an appointment for the Ford dealer to change the fuel pump module (Recall) which may help. I would not mind a much more mild winter tune and something more aggressive for the summer. Having a set it and forget tune is not something I am expecting. Once the module is taken out of the equation, I'll work with LMS to hopefully achieve this. Computer should take care of making sure it doesn't blow up as stated earlier. We are going in the right direction.
My goal is to set a standard so we all have a simple concise answer with LMS tunes in my (or colder) region(s).
My goal is to set a standard so we all have a simple concise answer with LMS tunes in my (or colder) region(s).
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 10:27:21 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 10:27:21 AM
Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:04:02 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:04:02 AM
I would check the wastegate hoses,(TC) wastegate solenoid valve stuck and check intake piping to make sure the clamps are in there tight. Ant codes set?
I was curious if you hear any howling noises? Z
Here is a good link to get an idea.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/turbo_repair.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/turbo_repair.htm)
I was curious if you hear any howling noises? Z
Here is a good link to get an idea.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/turbo_repair.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/turbo_repair.htm)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 11:20:30 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 10:27:21 AM
Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.
Do you normally see 10s with the 87 tune? Or with the 91/93 tune?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 06, 2017, 11:25:29 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 06, 2017, 11:25:29 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 11:20:30 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 10:27:21 AM
Today its a whopping 2f in Chicago. Did a couple wot pulls on the 87 tune (stock map on 3 bar) from LMS and its maxing out between 7 and 8 PSI, I normally see 10s.
Do you normally see 10s with the 87 tune? Or with the 91/93 tune?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Seconded, lower octane tune will command less MAP pressure/tip pressure/torque so car will not be commanded for or need as high of boost.
Along with that, depending on conditions there is a chance that a torque modifier was in place as well. For instance, when logging recently, I had some slipping/spinning due to cold roads, etc. and saw a significant boost cut due to traction control enabling.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 06:32:55 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 06:32:55 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That's a fair statement. Very hard to resist on a open highway though. Nothing is broken, higher octane tune shows higher boost. My exhaust has always howled part throttle.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 07:31:51 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 07:31:51 PM
seems to be 20 degrees over ambient so 5f IAT is 20 to 25 on iat2
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 07:42:05 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 07:42:05 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....
In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:47:15 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 07:31:51 PM
seems to be 20 degrees over ambient so 5f IAT is 20 to 25 on iat2
Maybe before the car is heat soaked...if you are only getting 20-25 degree over amb then you have a good intercooler and dont suffer the problems everyone else does
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 07:42:05 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....
In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...
Timing is pretty up there as you say because at 185 kpa load is lower and the spark tables follow load so lower load will yield more spark...and that spark was also your car and we know your car loved the spark
Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 07:42:05 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PM
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
IIRC the 4+X tune on the 2010-2012 calls for 187kpa under WOT... and that's the most aggressive one... although timing is pretty up there around 23 degrees advanced....
In have run that one in under freezing temps without an issue... hammering on it.. no problems...
Timing is pretty up there as you say because at 185 kpa load is lower and the spark tables follow load so lower load will yield more spark...and that spark was also your car and we know your car loved the spark
Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark
Makes sense, when boost is lower the timing is higher in the logs I see... I just assumed that was traditional tuning boost vs spark... raise boost where you want it and slowly add timing into it until you start picking up knock then back it off a bit...and generally it's a give and take.. more boost or more spark... not cranking hard on both... at least as I understand it..
The only logs of guys running more than 21 degrees of spark without knock are mixing E at 20% or higher...
Although FoMoCo had some interesting logs running really high E mixes..
But I digress... the OP shouldn't be seeing hesitation issues unless something outside the range of normal is not correct.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 08:19:39 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 08:19:39 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat's absurd about wanting to take care of your car in single digit temps??.(Each his own). ZQuote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
manifold charge temp 50f
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 08:27:47 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 08:19:39 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat's absurd about wanting to take care of your car in single digit temps??.ZQuote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
What makes you think you are taking care of it any better by not going wot when cold?....in fact it may be less stressful on the car going wot when colder.....its a machine not a man, it doesnt feel cold like you do
Thermal loads are much lower when cold..i see many more stress induced failures when hot not cold...your car loves the cold dont deprive it Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: MiWiAu on January 06, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Post by: MiWiAu on January 06, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:51:16 PM
Take a look at an explorer sport under the same conditions and i bet you wont see 23 degrees....for some reason they dont tolerate the spark
True story. :( Even at lower boost levels, I don't think I've seen anything much over 10 degrees advance or so at WOT.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:59:03 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat would you say the cause is if it's not running out of fuel?Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 09:03:48 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:59:03 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat would you say the cause is if it's not running out of fuel?Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Ask LMS, without logs or any kind of data, it's very hard to speculate on that... not the answer you want to hear, but it's the truth.
I only mentioned fuel pressure because again, historically, when these cars hesitate under WOT, it's a fuel pressure issue.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 09:04:01 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 09:04:01 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:59:03 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat would you say the cause is if it's not running out of fuel?Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Really tough to say...wish you could capture a log....i want to say some type of torque reduction but thats a wild guess...tq reductions can happen by throttle, spark, fuel or any combo of the 3...they could possibly be audible and felt
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 09:47:07 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 09:47:07 PM
The OP as stated on page 3 is working with LME for a viable solution in conjunction with having the fuel module recall performed and until then stay tuned and we need to move on. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 07, 2017, 12:26:06 AM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 07, 2017, 12:26:06 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 06, 2017, 09:03:48 PMI don't know, I've seen some absurdly low rail pressure with no hesitation and no issue hitting commanded AFR. Hell I've had logs where the car gave me nearly 27 degrees of spark with terrible rail pressure.Quote from: polskifacet on January 06, 2017, 08:59:03 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 06, 2017, 07:11:25 PMWhat would you say the cause is if it's not running out of fuel?Quote from: ZSHO on January 06, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
I personally avoid doing any wot-pulls under 10 deg weather. Z
That is absurd...waste of a car
I really can not see LMS boost levels of 190 kpa being a problem for fuel pressure for regular E10 gas at ANY temp..i enjoy going wot on a turbo car when its cold..they love it
The 10 degree ambiant temp really doesnt matter...once warmed up to operating temp id say your iat2 is around 50+ anyway so thats what the engine is really seeing
Ask LMS, without logs or any kind of data, it's very hard to speculate on that... not the answer you want to hear, but it's the truth.
I only mentioned fuel pressure because again, historically, when these cars hesitate under WOT, it's a fuel pressure issue.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 07, 2017, 09:59:37 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 07, 2017, 09:59:37 AM
I'm hoping the fuel module recall is the culprit in this situation along with possibly a PCM update.
I also verified that Dan Millen over at LME will step in and help the OP out next week if your issues still persist. Z
I also verified that Dan Millen over at LME will step in and help the OP out next week if your issues still persist. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 13, 2017, 03:03:25 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 13, 2017, 03:03:25 PM
Please lets keep our discussion's grounded and simply issuing a cautionary note in regards to preliminary data that the OP was able to obtain. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 13, 2017, 04:01:49 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 13, 2017, 04:01:49 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 13, 2017, 03:03:25 PM
Please lets keep our discussion's grounded and simply issuing a cautionary note in regards to preliminary data that the OP was able to obtain. Z
Nice move Z ...it doesnt have to be a witch hunt....but rather a chance for a member to seek help with an issue via a different avenue
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 14, 2017, 12:00:57 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 14, 2017, 12:00:57 AM
I looked at the logs you sent. Every time you go WOT your fuel pressure drops and it doesn't seem to recover...You even had a instance where your fuel pressure fell below 900 psi...It's consistent and does it every time. Your fuel pressure desired at WOT is about 2150 psi so you are well below...KR is ok and I don't see any reported misfires and AFR's are plenty rich so nothing looks unhealthy but you have a fuel pressure problem that appears to be mechanical
At the boost level your tune is at it should not do that and should maintain fuel pressure well. You are only targeting about 12.7 psi
There is something wrong with your fuel delivery...
At the boost level your tune is at it should not do that and should maintain fuel pressure well. You are only targeting about 12.7 psi
There is something wrong with your fuel delivery...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:46:55 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:46:55 AM
Thanks for seeing that. Well WTF do I do now. Issue is only in winter and while tuned so dealer won't fix it. Damn I should probably baby the thing because blowing up again is actually likely.
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 06:42:59 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:46:55 AM
Thanks for seeing that. Well WTF do I do now. Issue is only in winter and while tuned so dealer won't fix it. Damn I should probably baby the thing because blowing up again is actually likely.
HPFP, LPFP, or FPDM...... I was having fuel pressure issues... when I replaced the LPFP I checked out the filter on the bottom and it was gummed up and black... after replacing it, there was a bump in fuel pressure...
You can rent a fuel pressure gauge and connect it to the schrader in the engine bay, back under the cowl, passenger side to verify that your pump is pushing the right amount of pressure... if it is, and you had the FPDM recall done, I would look at the HPFP.
You may not be seeing the issue in the due to warm weather not taxing your fuel system quiet enough to have this issue... but the fuel pressure issue might still be there, just not as extreme.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 10:46:27 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 10:46:27 AM
I know these cars a very stubborn and do not emit codes easily and would also have to agree with Stealthbluesho worthy assessment.
There is also an older TSB/SSM related to this issue in particular, best of luck on a hopeful viable solution. Z
SSM 44315 - 2013 Model Year Explorer, Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Fusion, MKZ, and Police Interceptor Utility and Sedan Vehicles may exhibit a fuel odor or hesitation.
Some 2013 Model Year Explorer, Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Fusion, MKZ, and Police Interceptor Utility and Sedan Vehicles may exhibit a fuel odor, slow fill, or hesitation/stumble while driving and may or may not have one or more of the following codes present P0454, P0455, p0456, p0457, p0451, p0459 after Field Service Action 13S04 has been completed. This may be due to the fuel vapor line not beingproperly connected (fully seated) to the underside of the Fuel Delivery Module (FDM) which may lead to the carbon canister becoming saturated with liquid fuel.If fuel is found in the carbon canister and FSA13s04 has been completed on the vehicle, please inspect the vapor line connection to the FDM in addition to the normal diagnostics called out in the appropriate workshop manual.
There is also an older TSB/SSM related to this issue in particular, best of luck on a hopeful viable solution. Z
SSM 44315 - 2013 Model Year Explorer, Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Fusion, MKZ, and Police Interceptor Utility and Sedan Vehicles may exhibit a fuel odor or hesitation.
Some 2013 Model Year Explorer, Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Fusion, MKZ, and Police Interceptor Utility and Sedan Vehicles may exhibit a fuel odor, slow fill, or hesitation/stumble while driving and may or may not have one or more of the following codes present P0454, P0455, p0456, p0457, p0451, p0459 after Field Service Action 13S04 has been completed. This may be due to the fuel vapor line not beingproperly connected (fully seated) to the underside of the Fuel Delivery Module (FDM) which may lead to the carbon canister becoming saturated with liquid fuel.If fuel is found in the carbon canister and FSA13s04 has been completed on the vehicle, please inspect the vapor line connection to the FDM in addition to the normal diagnostics called out in the appropriate workshop manual.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
Is the LPFP accessible from inside or does the tank have to be dropped?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 12:26:57 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 12:26:57 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
Is the LPFP accessible from inside or does the tank have to be dropped?
It's under the rear passenger seat. You can replace it from the inside. If you look at where the rear seat cushions connect to the carpet, at about the middle of each seat is an latch. Slide the latch over on both sides they will pop up. Then tilt the seat up towards the rear of the car, there is a hook on each side the holds the back of the seat in place, unhook it, seat should come right out, it's very light.
Side note: if you have heated rear seats there is a connector on each side that needs to be popped off...
The only tool you may not have that I would commend is a fuel lock ring removal tool... it makes it super easy to get the lock ring off the top of the pump.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
Cool I think the HPFP is the culprit so I think its worth the gamble to swap that out first. Any input would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 12:59:20 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 12:59:20 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 12:57:29 PM
Cool I think the HPFP is the culprit so I think its worth the gamble to swap that out first. Any input would be appreciated!
There is a how to that I wrote in the how to section... check it out... I have a spare HPFP that I am selling if you are interested...although I would be surprised if it was the HPFP... let me know..
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:13:39 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:13:39 PM
Here's a post i made a while back with some Diagrams with step by step instructions on the sender, hope it helps any. Z
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6401.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6401.0.html)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6401.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6401.0.html)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:20:33 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:20:33 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 12:57:29 PMCan you post or email me your log?
Cool I think the HPFP is the culprit so I think its worth the gamble to swap that out first. Any input would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:23:41 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 14, 2017, 01:23:41 PM
Do you normally fuel up at the same place?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:28:59 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:28:59 PM
only a couple select stations
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
I think since the LPFP seems to keep up with desired pressure, I will focus on the HPFP since that where it seems to be off. I can get one from the dealer for $190.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 03:05:07 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 03:05:07 PM
Logs
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs)
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 03:12:57 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 03:12:57 PM
Is it me or is that a date. If the year is actually 14 there is no way its the original pump.
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/hpfp.jpg)
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/hpfp.jpg)
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 04:33:52 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 04:33:52 PM
Isn't this the second motor?
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 04:41:42 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 04:41:42 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 04:48:49 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 04:48:49 PM
Did you put in an assembled longblock? If so, I would bet the HPFP is an accessory that was included, especially if it was a used motor.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 05:00:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 05:00:50 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 04:48:49 PMDealer replaced long block under warranty. my car was manufactured in 2012. has to be a new one.
Did you put in an assembled longblock? If so, I would bet the HPFP is an accessory that was included, especially if it was a used motor.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
The long block engine assembly which is Part # DG1Z6006A can be had for nearly 6.500.00 with all parts needed. Part Description: 3.5L Dual Over Head Cam T/C V6 Gas ; SHO Package 1; Gaskets And Additional Parts Must Be Purchased Separately, Includes Oil Pan, Valve Covers, Front Cover & Water Pump. Z http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=JfBYT2Kj2LUpv3vNzQFYwQ%3d%3d&id=390313021&m=44&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus (http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=JfBYT2Kj2LUpv3vNzQFYwQ%3d%3d&id=390313021&m=44&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus)
I would love to see some pics of that new engine if possible. Z
(http://i.imgur.com/nUte1Zyh.jpg)
I would love to see some pics of that new engine if possible. Z
(http://i.imgur.com/nUte1Zyh.jpg)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 06:26:35 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 06:26:35 PM
if you look at log 5 that i just uploaded which is back to stock (87 octane tune), the frp is solid as a rock wtf is going on! its over 2300 psi pretty much the whole time.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 06:35:40 PM
Haven't looked at the logs, BUT, compare MAP, Load, Load Absolute, and Spark as well.
On an 87 tune, the MAP commanded will be lower, by a decent margin generally, and with less boost, etc. you will not tax the fuel system nearly as much.
On an 87 tune, the MAP commanded will be lower, by a decent margin generally, and with less boost, etc. you will not tax the fuel system nearly as much.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 06:57:31 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 06:57:31 PM
sure but this proves the HPFP is fine since it keeps constant high pressure. If anything it could be the tank pump/pumps but then I think you would see that drop pressure if there was an issue there. Fuel line would have to be pinched for the lpfps to have pressure but not enough flow but that's fairly unlikely since AFR is good.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 07:18:39 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 07:18:39 PM
Not sure DI uses the same principle but on my mustang: NA motor you see 40 PSI of fuel pressure at idle, and try to hold 40 while pulling vacuum. At 0 vacuum you see ~ 60PSI (40 PSI + Vacuum). Add boost and you need even more PSI to push the fuel.
So in this case, assuming the same basic principle, lower boost on the 87 tune, means it has less resistance, up the boost, more resistance, pump cant maintain the pressure.
BUt again, I am not a DI guru, just seems logical to me.
So in this case, assuming the same basic principle, lower boost on the 87 tune, means it has less resistance, up the boost, more resistance, pump cant maintain the pressure.
BUt again, I am not a DI guru, just seems logical to me.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 07:23:05 PM
I would suspect the LPFP over the HPFP...
I had a similar issue..stock tune I had no issues, logs looked great! The moment I dropped ANY tune on it my fuel pressure would go to crap.. I replaced the LPFP, HPFP, and the FPDM... all of which may no REAL noticeable impact.. at most the LPFP helped a TAD but I could have replaced the strainer for $10 and gotten to same results...
Here is a log of mine that almost look IDENTICAL... mine is commanding a higher load than yours... and your LTFT are already set where mine are not there yet...
You are recording with a SCT device correct? and IIRC you also experience the same issue with LMS tunes? So that would make two DIFFERENCE tuners that are having the same issue correct?
What ultimately ended up being the issue with mine was the tune I was being provided. That is why I ask.
I had a similar issue..stock tune I had no issues, logs looked great! The moment I dropped ANY tune on it my fuel pressure would go to crap.. I replaced the LPFP, HPFP, and the FPDM... all of which may no REAL noticeable impact.. at most the LPFP helped a TAD but I could have replaced the strainer for $10 and gotten to same results...
Here is a log of mine that almost look IDENTICAL... mine is commanding a higher load than yours... and your LTFT are already set where mine are not there yet...
You are recording with a SCT device correct? and IIRC you also experience the same issue with LMS tunes? So that would make two DIFFERENCE tuners that are having the same issue correct?
What ultimately ended up being the issue with mine was the tune I was being provided. That is why I ask.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 07:50:30 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 07:50:30 PM
I have to give LMS a chance to analyze the logs and mention that StealBlueSho had the same issue with a SCT programmer and a different tune which was ultimately fixed by a tune change. I hope this gets solved once and for all guys, I am absolutely willing to drive the 4 hours to LMS and let them have at it. Otherwise I'll setup a gofundme for a AJP tune in the end LMAO!
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 09:06:47 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 09:06:47 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 07:50:30 PM
I have to give LMS a chance to analyze the logs and mention that StealBlueSho had the same issue with a SCT programmer and a different tune which was ultimately fixed by a tune change. I hope this gets solved once and for all guys, I am absolutely willing to drive the 4 hours to LMS and let them have at it. Otherwise I'll setup a gofundme for a AJP tune in the end LMAO!
Can't go wrong with an AJPTurbo tune... are you datalogging with the LMS Mycal for LMS? I thought they wouldn't look at the logs from SCT?
Right, in the PM I said I had the same issues you are having when I was tuned with Unleashed which was ultimately resolved by AJPTurbo insisting that my fuel pressure woes were tune related. Both are SCT based tunes.
I would give LMS a good shot at it, haven't heard of anyone they couldn't help with their tune..plus you are invested in their tuner lol...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Logging with SCT. mycal doesnt have the capability. They will look at them, I can't do any better without getting an invite to their shop.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 10:01:05 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 10:01:05 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Logging with SCT. mycal doesnt have the capability. They will look at them, I can't do any better without getting an invite to their shop.
Glad they changed their stance on SCT logging... I would be curious if there are certain parameters they are having you record?
Historically they have said the SCT datalogging is not accurate and people don't look at the right parameters in order to make an informed decision...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 10:14:56 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 10:14:56 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 14, 2017, 10:01:05 PMQuote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Logging with SCT. mycal doesnt have the capability. They will look at them, I can't do any better without getting an invite to their shop.
Glad they changed their stance on SCT logging... I would be curious if there are certain parameters they are having you record?
Historically they have said the SCT datalogging is not accurate and people don't look at the right parameters in order to make an informed decision...
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I can understand saying that about parameters that are logged, depending on the issue. However, the SCT logs are extremely accurate,and have an amazing resolution! I work with engine testing and dataloging for a living and the best resolution we can get is 20ms, and only ~20 parameters at that speed. Granted you can get to ~25 if that is all you log, and can log a whole bunch more parameters at 1500ms or so in a different data mode (less accurate and more prone to drop out).
But the PID read at 1 ms update rate that SCT has is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 10:41:25 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 14, 2017, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 14, 2017, 09:39:23 PMI can certainly try to request a personal invite for ya and hopefully get her dialed in and while your there you can put her on the Dyno. LMK. Z ;)
Logging with SCT. mycal doesnt have the capability. They will look at them, I can't do any better without getting an invite to their shop.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 15, 2017, 06:22:08 AM
Post by: SHOdded on January 15, 2017, 06:22:08 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 14, 2017, 10:14:56 PM30 ms readings MOST of the time with Forscan Lite and OBDLink MX BT, monitoring approx 65 PIDs.
I can understand saying that about parameters that are logged, depending on the issue. However, the SCT logs are extremely accurate,and have an amazing resolution! I work with engine testing and dataloging for a living and the best resolution we can get is 20ms, and only ~20 parameters at that speed. Granted you can get to ~25 if that is all you log, and can log a whole bunch more parameters at 1500ms or so in a different data mode (less accurate and more prone to drop out).
But the PID read at 1 ms update rate that SCT has is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 16, 2017, 11:10:31 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 16, 2017, 11:10:31 AM
PM sent. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 16, 2017, 04:45:34 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 16, 2017, 04:45:34 PM
Anyone have an idea on how to do a flow test? Hooking up the gauge to the Schrader valve and keeping the bypass open to a measuring container is fairly simple but how about energizing both pumps at 100% output? LMS is going to talk about my issue with their staff tomorrow, I am trying to gather required tools for testing what they may come up with for what to check.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 16, 2017, 07:58:02 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 16, 2017, 07:58:02 PM
I dont know how you would control or test 3000 psi of potential pressure without pro tools. I suppose you could probe the wiring and inference that way, still a far cry from direct measurement. Maybe some diesel guys have insight.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 16, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 16, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
If you are going off the schrader valve that would be testing the LPFP....
Went I tested mine, I just tested the PSI output with a fuel pressure test kit. We hooked it up to the Schrader valve, snaked the line out of the top of hood, through the passenger windows, and my buddy held it in the passenger seat.
We did remove the cowl to fit the line through.
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Went I tested mine, I just tested the PSI output with a fuel pressure test kit. We hooked it up to the Schrader valve, snaked the line out of the top of hood, through the passenger windows, and my buddy held it in the passenger seat.
We did remove the cowl to fit the line through.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 16, 2017, 08:52:04 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 16, 2017, 08:52:04 PM
HPFP keeps pressure on the stock tune so I will assume it is fine since its the same issue with 2 different HPFPs. I talked to a friend that has a mechanic shop, he's on vacation but next week I can go over there and we can hook up a line to the schrader valve and energize the in-tank pumps with his fancy diagnostic scan tool. He mentioned that they should both energize by jumping the relay but using the scan tool is easier.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 16, 2017, 10:36:07 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 16, 2017, 10:36:07 PM
Sounds good! Hoping for a discovery.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:17:56 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:17:56 PM
Decided to swap the LPFP, might be able to do it tonight. That way it's 100% sure that component cant be checked off the list. Only part left are the actual lines (unlikely) which would be a visual inspection and potentially that flow test and then it would fall back on software.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 18, 2017, 12:21:17 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 18, 2017, 12:21:17 PM
Good luck!!! I would rent a fuel lock ring wrench... it will save you a butt load of time... talking from experience..
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:51:37 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:51:37 PM
Any difference here? I am not sure which one I am getting but I think my car falls under the PS-944 vs PS-1024
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/fuelpump.jpg)
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/fuelpump.jpg)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 18, 2017, 12:56:06 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 18, 2017, 12:56:06 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:51:37 PMI would confirm fitment by calling or typing in your Vin number, it looks like the first option may be applicable based on the build date.
Any difference here? I am not sure which one I am getting but I think my car falls under the PS-944 vs PS-1024
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/fuelpump.jpg)
PFS-944. Z.
I'm showing based from my Vin number PFS-944.
http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=5sxruvEanMTjmv%2fllLDqAw%3d%3d&id=407341775&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus (http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=5sxruvEanMTjmv%2fllLDqAw%3d%3d&id=407341775&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 01:19:25 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 01:19:25 PM
Just using fordparts.com for reference. I go to a local dealer and get shop discount. My build date is 02/12 so also 944 for me.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 18, 2017, 05:25:29 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 18, 2017, 05:25:29 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 12:17:56 PMDid I miss something in the log?
Decided to swap the LPFP, might be able to do it tonight. That way it's 100% sure that component cant be checked off the list. Only part left are the actual lines (unlikely) which would be a visual inspection and potentially that flow test and then it would fall back on software.
Looked like it was keeping up fine.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 06:17:14 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 06:17:14 PM
LMS said to check it, I'm just going to change it to minimize push back.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 18, 2017, 06:23:35 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 18, 2017, 06:23:35 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 06:17:14 PM
LMS said to check it, I'm just going to change it to minimize push back.
I went down the same path with Unleashed... LPFP, HPFP, FPDM... about $700 worth of parts.. luckily I am mechanically inclined so I didn't pay for installs...
However... that being said.. my car does not support pids for LPFP information... maybe the saw something...
Good luck! If you have any questions about the LPFP swap feel free to PM me.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 18, 2017, 07:32:43 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 18, 2017, 07:32:43 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 18, 2017, 06:23:35 PMIIRC, It was like 4 psi from what was commanded. And that was well after the rail crapped out.Quote from: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 06:17:14 PM
LMS said to check it, I'm just going to change it to minimize push back.
I went down the same path with Unleashed... LPFP, HPFP, FPDM... about $700 worth of parts.. luckily I am mechanically inclined so I didn't pay for installs...
However... that being said.. my car does not support pids for LPFP information... maybe the saw something...
Good luck! If you have any questions about the LPFP swap feel free to PM me.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 11:49:19 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 11:49:19 PM
I know it looked good, but I also need to get my side taken care of ASAP before too much time passes and the fire under LMS's butt dies down. At least I hope they notice I am serious about fixing the issue and not just being a support leech.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 19, 2017, 09:24:46 AM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 19, 2017, 09:24:46 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 18, 2017, 11:49:19 PMPM sent
I know it looked good, but I also need to get my side taken care of ASAP before too much time passes and the fire under LMS's butt dies down. At least I hope they notice I am serious about fixing the issue and not just being a support leech.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Anyone once else able to post logs of wot with 30f or lower IAT temps with LMS or other tune?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 11:37:47 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 11:37:47 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Anyone once else able to post logs of wot with 30f or lower IAT temps with LMS or other tune?
Ill post some cold weather logs when I get home
Edit: No sense in posting them twice, thrice etc.
My logs can be found here:
Basic cold weather logs, may not have WOT but has steady state in cold temps.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7285.msg111245.html#msg111245 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7285.msg111245.html#msg111245)
Here is a plethora of my logs (Most likely you will want to look at the Rev21 logs that are attached, they were logged in 20 degree ambient or so)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7288.msg111148.html#msg111148 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7288.msg111148.html#msg111148)
Enjoy
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 19, 2017, 11:39:56 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 19, 2017, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Anyone once else able to post logs of wot with 30f or lower IAT temps with LMS or other tune?
That cold is going to put stress on your fuel pressure for sure.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 11:42:46 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 11:42:46 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 19, 2017, 11:39:56 AMQuote from: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 11:23:52 AM
Anyone once else able to post logs of wot with 30f or lower IAT temps with LMS or other tune?
That cold is going to put stress on your fuel pressure for sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I want to say my IATs are usually ~30 deg warmer than ambient, so 30 IAT would be 0 ambient, cold for sure. And at those temperatures, heck at any temps under 40 or so, transmission takes a lot longer to warm up and is jerky and jumpy anyway because the fluid is cold.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 12:01:03 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 12:01:03 PM
Looking at derfdog's log, his frp drops to 9 MPa and recovers but the tune is also running 12.5 afr vs w.e LMS is wanting which looks to be 11.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:07:37 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:07:37 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 12:01:03 PM
Looking at derfdog's log, his frp drops to 9 MPa and recovers but the tune is also running 12.5 afr vs w.e LMS is wanting which looks to be 11.
Derf is running E20 so its not comparable entirely....he is NOT running 12.5 afr...his stoic is lower so his afr is actually about 11.4
Thats why is kinda better to read lambda and not afr
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:13:48 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:13:48 PM
And derf is running more boost....so couple that with E20 and its a double wammy on the fuel system...its heavily taxxed so not a good comparison for your tune but it shows you how your fuel system suffers with alot less demand than derf
The log i sent you was much closer to your tune.....it showed the same desired boost...however i only had the guy run a 2 bar map sensor and you saw his fuel pressure was completely flat
The log i sent you was much closer to your tune.....it showed the same desired boost...however i only had the guy run a 2 bar map sensor and you saw his fuel pressure was completely flat
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:42:56 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 12:42:56 PM
And although you can maintain afr even when fuel pressure falls its not ideal...so when fuel pressure falls that doesn't mean you will go lean...it means the pulsewidth of the injector needs to increase to deliver the same fuel mass if pressure is down
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Post by: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Not sure if it helps or not, but here is a log of my XSport in cold(er) temps. I'm not certain, but I assume the fuel system is the same as the SHO?
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 01:13:59 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 01:13:59 PM
Thanks to AJPTurbo for chiming in, I should have mentioned boost levels/E20 on this post as well, though I believe they are mentioned on the respective posts with the logs.
If you look at lambese it hits the .85 target at WOT consistently on the latest revision, not sure what the target was on previous revisions, though I believe it was the same. As AJPTurbo mentioned, since I am running E20 my stoich point is a bit lower, E85 stoich is 9.8:1 vs. 14.7:1 for regular gas. My stoich point is somewhere in the 13.5-13.7 range IIRC.
If you look at lambese it hits the .85 target at WOT consistently on the latest revision, not sure what the target was on previous revisions, though I believe it was the same. As AJPTurbo mentioned, since I am running E20 my stoich point is a bit lower, E85 stoich is 9.8:1 vs. 14.7:1 for regular gas. My stoich point is somewhere in the 13.5-13.7 range IIRC.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
Quote from: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Not sure if it helps or not, but here is a log of my XSport in cold(er) temps. I'm not certain, but I assume the fuel system is the same as the SHO?
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
This log might not be best either...you show a substantial fuel pressure drop because the throttle is open which allows the boost to spike and the spring in the gate mod was too high but i think at least you see fuel pressure recover at a higher boost level than polski
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:59:45 PM
Post by: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:59:45 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 01:37:08 PMQuote from: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Not sure if it helps or not, but here is a log of my XSport in cold(er) temps. I'm not certain, but I assume the fuel system is the same as the SHO?
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
This log might not be best either...you show a substantial fuel pressure drop because the throttle is open which allows the boost to spike and the spring in the gate mod was too high but i think at least you see fuel pressure recover at a higher boost level than polski
Good point. I think the last part of your statement there though may help reinforce something on his end is askew, which, in retrospect, probably isn't all that helpful, since I think that's already been the conclusion.
I just like to participate. :)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 02:07:05 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 02:07:05 PM
Low atomization is bad in DI since it uses evaporation to help cool the cylinders. But anyway hopefully I will have facts for you guys tonight. I'll put this out there now since its probably an inevitable test, for the fuel volume test at the schrader valve, how much fuel should I get for X interval?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 19, 2017, 02:25:03 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 19, 2017, 02:25:03 PM
Good luck, polski!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 10:20:24 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 10:20:24 PM
Lines are all perfect, no distortion of any sort. I wasn't able to get the pump out, will try to source the tool tomorrow, worst case I have to buy it for $50 online.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 19, 2017, 10:33:14 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 19, 2017, 10:33:14 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 19, 2017, 10:20:24 PM
Lines are all perfect, no distortion of any sort. I wasn't able to get the pump out, will try to source the tool tomorrow, worst case I have to buy it for $50 online.
I used a rubber mallet and a chisel, slowly working my way around the ring until it popped loose...hind sight 20/20 I should have just rented the damn lock ring tool... cause putting it back on was a nightmare...
Advanced Auto parts has the tool for free to rent if you put a deposit on the kit... at least the one by my house..
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:36:23 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:36:23 AM
I had to buy the damn tool, apparently no one has it in Chicago lol. Scheduled delivery tonight so hopefully I can capture that log too.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 20, 2017, 11:39:28 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 20, 2017, 11:39:28 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:36:23 AM
I had to buy the damn tool, apparently no one has it in Chicago lol. Scheduled delivery tonight so hopefully I can capture that log too.
Yea, there a ton of videos of how to make the tool with various common place tools just for that reason.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Changed the pump, it was a SOB even with the tool. Logs look better but I attribute that completely to the fact its 20f warmer today then previous log. Still drops down to 1000 psi with kick down from 5th to 2nd. Logs 6 and 7 are with the new lpfp. Now the ball is in LMS's court since it must be a tune problem which seems to heavily be linked to ambient temp. Lmk what you guys think.
Note: no Hesitation on these runs
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
Note: no Hesitation on these runs
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 20, 2017, 11:42:54 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 20, 2017, 11:42:54 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Changed the pump, it was a SOB even with the tool. Logs look better but I attribute that completely to the fact its 20f warmer today then previous log. Still drops down to 1000 psi with kick down from 5th to 2nd. Logs 6 and 7 are with the new lpfp. Now the ball is in LMS's court since it must be a tune problem which seems to heavily be linked to ambient temp. Lmk what you guys think.
Note: no Hesitation on these runs
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
Most tunes have an issue with the downshift from 5th to 2nd... not completely unusual..
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 21, 2017, 10:25:13 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 21, 2017, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 20, 2017, 11:42:54 PMQuote from: polskifacet on January 20, 2017, 11:33:22 PM
Changed the pump, it was a SOB even with the tool. Logs look better but I attribute that completely to the fact its 20f warmer today then previous log. Still drops down to 1000 psi with kick down from 5th to 2nd. Logs 6 and 7 are with the new lpfp. Now the ball is in LMS's court since it must be a tune problem which seems to heavily be linked to ambient temp. Lmk what you guys think.
Note: no Hesitation on these runs
http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
Most tunes have an issue with the downshift from 5th to 2nd... not completely unusual..
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Seconded, just think about the change in condition, gear ratio, speed, etc. going from 5th to 2nd gear. If you were driving a stick car, would you drop from 5 all the way down to 2, or incrementally?
I have said from the beginning the main concern was/is the temperature, and I continue to hold to that belief. Let us know what happens/next steps you plan to take, hopefully this gets resolved soon!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 12:46:04 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 12:46:04 PM
Even at low temps the commanded boost of his tune is TOO low to be a problem on E10 pump gas as long as the fuel system is ok and the tune or strategy is not goofed up
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 01:39:48 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 01:39:48 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 12:46:04 PM
Even at low temps the commanded boost of his tune is TOO low to be a problem on E10 pump gas as long as the fuel system is ok and the tune or strategy is not goofed up
You've tuned my car so you know it's characteristic...
With the LMS 4+X tune, a 5th to 2nd downshift has caused my rail pressure to take a VERY brief drop down to 1000psi but it recovers almost instantly..
Can't remember ambients at the time...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 01:59:50 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 01:59:50 PM
But we were well over 186kpa
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 02:04:36 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 02:04:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 21, 2017, 01:59:50 PM
But we were well over 186kpa
Re-read my post, I saw the pressure drop with LMS 4+X... not your tune...
I saw the drop with your tune before the wastegate modification but that was pushing 207kpa with a lot of advance..
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2017, 03:48:20 PM
Most of the fuel line is metal. Checked all the bends everything is nice and smooth. I can do the volume test but it will be hard to see a difference between 80% and 100% flow, I have no benchmark to compare it to. I also uploaded a log (8) of a run in 60f today.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 04:26:45 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 04:26:45 PM
Yea, rail pressure is still suffering.. bottoms out to 1100psi and only recovers to 1850psi throughout the run. You never actually hit the dsd fuel rail pressure of 2149psi.... and the the intake temperature at the manifold starts at 93F which is more than warm enough to not cause fuel pressure problems at the load you are pushing...
Every look I look at, the knock sensor is pulling the maximum amount of knock it can at 4.5 degrees... that is not very comforting...
Not sure bud... And your Lambase and Lambda are matching up so its probably not a leaky injector(s)..
I am sure LMS will assist.
Every look I look at, the knock sensor is pulling the maximum amount of knock it can at 4.5 degrees... that is not very comforting...
Not sure bud... And your Lambase and Lambda are matching up so its probably not a leaky injector(s)..
I am sure LMS will assist.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 21, 2017, 04:38:15 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 21, 2017, 04:38:15 PM
I wonder if the compression test changed any since last time. Z
Reference below
Compression Test
Make sure the oil in the crankcase is of the correct viscosity and at the correct level and that the battery is correctly charged. Operate the vehicle until the engine is at normal operating temperature. Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position, then remove all the spark plugs.
Set the throttle plates in the wide-open position.
Install a compression gauge in the No. 1 cylinder.
Install an auxiliary starter switch in the starting circuit. With the ignition switch in the OFF position, and using the auxiliary starter switch, crank the engine a minimum of 5 compression strokes and record the highest reading. Note the approximate number of compression strokes necessary to obtain the highest reading.
Repeat the test on each cylinder, cranking the engine approximately the same number of compression strokes.
Compression Test — 3.5L Engine Test Results
The indicated compression pressures are considered within specification if the lowest reading cylinder is at least 75% of the highest reading.
Refer to the Compression Pressure Limit Chart.
(http://i.imgur.com/7uXAAbxh.jpg)
If one or more cylinders reads low, squirt approximately one tablespoon of engine oil meeting Ford specification on top of the pistons in the low-reading cylinders. Repeat the compression pressure check on these cylinders.
Compression Test — 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI) Engine Test Results
The indicated compression pressures are considered within specification if the lowest reading cylinder is at least 75% of the highest reading. Refer to the Compression Pressure Limit Chart.
(http://i.imgur.com/fDsZQ5yh.jpg)
If one or more cylinders reads low, squirt approximately one tablespoon of engine oil meeting Ford specification on top of the pistons in the low-reading cylinders. Repeat the compression pressure check on these cylinders.
Compression Test — Interpreting Compression Readings
If compression improves considerably, piston rings are worn or damaged.
If compression does not improve, valves are sticking or not seating correctly.
If 2 adjacent cylinders indicate low compression pressures and squirting oil on each piston does not increase compression, the head gasket may be leaking between cylinders. Engine oil or coolant in cylinders could result from this condition.
Use the Compression Pressure Limit Chart when checking cylinder compression so that the lowest reading is within 75% of the highest reading.
Cylinder Leakage Detection
When a cylinder produces a low reading, use of a cylinder leakage tester will be helpful in pinpointing the exact cause.
The leakage tester is inserted in the spark plug hole, the piston is brought up to Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke, and compressed air is admitted.
Once the combustion chamber is pressurized, the leakage tester gauge will read the percentage of leakage. Leakage exceeding 20% is excessive.
While the air pressure is retained in the cylinder, listen for the hiss of escaping air. A leak at the intake valve will be heard in the Throttle Body (TB) . A leak at the exhaust valve can be heard at the tailpipe. Leakage past the piston rings will be audible at the PCV connection. If air is passing through a blown head gasket to an adjacent cylinder, the noise will be evident at the spark plug hole of the cylinder into which the air is leaking. Cracks in the cylinder block or gasket leakage into the cooling system may be detected by a stream of bubbles in the radiator.
Reference below
Compression Test
Make sure the oil in the crankcase is of the correct viscosity and at the correct level and that the battery is correctly charged. Operate the vehicle until the engine is at normal operating temperature. Turn the ignition switch to the OFF position, then remove all the spark plugs.
Set the throttle plates in the wide-open position.
Install a compression gauge in the No. 1 cylinder.
Install an auxiliary starter switch in the starting circuit. With the ignition switch in the OFF position, and using the auxiliary starter switch, crank the engine a minimum of 5 compression strokes and record the highest reading. Note the approximate number of compression strokes necessary to obtain the highest reading.
Repeat the test on each cylinder, cranking the engine approximately the same number of compression strokes.
Compression Test — 3.5L Engine Test Results
The indicated compression pressures are considered within specification if the lowest reading cylinder is at least 75% of the highest reading.
Refer to the Compression Pressure Limit Chart.
(http://i.imgur.com/7uXAAbxh.jpg)
If one or more cylinders reads low, squirt approximately one tablespoon of engine oil meeting Ford specification on top of the pistons in the low-reading cylinders. Repeat the compression pressure check on these cylinders.
Compression Test — 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI) Engine Test Results
The indicated compression pressures are considered within specification if the lowest reading cylinder is at least 75% of the highest reading. Refer to the Compression Pressure Limit Chart.
(http://i.imgur.com/fDsZQ5yh.jpg)
If one or more cylinders reads low, squirt approximately one tablespoon of engine oil meeting Ford specification on top of the pistons in the low-reading cylinders. Repeat the compression pressure check on these cylinders.
Compression Test — Interpreting Compression Readings
If compression improves considerably, piston rings are worn or damaged.
If compression does not improve, valves are sticking or not seating correctly.
If 2 adjacent cylinders indicate low compression pressures and squirting oil on each piston does not increase compression, the head gasket may be leaking between cylinders. Engine oil or coolant in cylinders could result from this condition.
Use the Compression Pressure Limit Chart when checking cylinder compression so that the lowest reading is within 75% of the highest reading.
Cylinder Leakage Detection
When a cylinder produces a low reading, use of a cylinder leakage tester will be helpful in pinpointing the exact cause.
The leakage tester is inserted in the spark plug hole, the piston is brought up to Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke, and compressed air is admitted.
Once the combustion chamber is pressurized, the leakage tester gauge will read the percentage of leakage. Leakage exceeding 20% is excessive.
While the air pressure is retained in the cylinder, listen for the hiss of escaping air. A leak at the intake valve will be heard in the Throttle Body (TB) . A leak at the exhaust valve can be heard at the tailpipe. Leakage past the piston rings will be audible at the PCV connection. If air is passing through a blown head gasket to an adjacent cylinder, the noise will be evident at the spark plug hole of the cylinder into which the air is leaking. Cracks in the cylinder block or gasket leakage into the cooling system may be detected by a stream of bubbles in the radiator.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 21, 2017, 06:59:28 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 21, 2017, 06:59:28 PM
polski, have you swapped out your Fuel Pump Control Module? Sorry if this has been asked before.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 21, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 21, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 21, 2017, 06:59:28 PM-MANU believe he did have the recall done recently with a reflash. Z
polski, have you swapped out your Fuel Pump Control Module? Sorry if this has been asked before.
GA8Z-9D370-A module.
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 21, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Hmm I wonder.... have you checked the cam follower that the HPFP rides on? If it is grooved bad enough then the HPFP won't operate at full efficiency...
When you pull it out you can also look at the cam too to make sure the lobe for the HPFP isn't damaged/grooved...
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When you pull it out you can also look at the cam too to make sure the lobe for the HPFP isn't damaged/grooved...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2017, 11:19:30 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2017, 11:19:30 PM
I have a new long block so all the stuff mentioned has less then 10k on it.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 11:09:30 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 11:09:30 AM
What if I were to get race gas and log, that way I can eliminate gas quality. I've been running a 89 octane tune and frp is good.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 22, 2017, 11:19:03 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 22, 2017, 11:19:03 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 11:09:30 AM
What if I were to get race gas and log, that way I can eliminate gas quality. I've been running a 89 octane tune and frp is good.
Fuel pressure and octane I don't go hand in hand... at least not that I am aware of...
It would be more tune/load related..
You are holding pressure better in the 89 octane tune probably because it doesn't have the same load on the engine as the 93 tune... lower load = easier on the fueling...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 11:39:27 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 11:39:27 AM
What is your desired tip on the 89 octane tune? I only saw your tune that had a desired tip of 186 kpa...is the 89 octane tune less?
Lower load will be lower mass airflow which will require less fuel mass delivered which will help to not consume the fuel in the rail
If the 89 octane tune is better and the desired tip is the same then that is either because the temps are warmer or the 91 octane tune file is possibly corrupted my guess...uncommon though
Lower load will be lower mass airflow which will require less fuel mass delivered which will help to not consume the fuel in the rail
If the 89 octane tune is better and the desired tip is the same then that is either because the temps are warmer or the 91 octane tune file is possibly corrupted my guess...uncommon though
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 02:01:34 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 02:01:34 PM
Just uploaded 9 89tune and 10 93tune these are with 3 gallons of 100 octane added to 20% fuel left on the gauge. Seems like improvement, will take closer look when I get home.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 02:25:50 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 02:25:50 PM
Octane has nothing to do with a pressure problem...all you're going to do with high octane is make the ecu scale spark via oar.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
Without a benchmark volume, I cant do anything else. Hopefully LMS could do it on their shop car. Any additional data is valid imo, could lead to clues.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
Maybe not enough timing ? I have got pretty good at reading my data logs my car like a lot of timing. I have 2 different tunes from different tuners I compare. Big difference
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:35:37 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:35:37 PM
Quote from: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:34:36 PM(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/dc66d2e8e5a4f723142c5477555a04fc.jpg) that's iat 2 temps blue one
Maybe not enough timing ? I have got pretty good at reading my data logs my car like a lot of timing. I have 2 different tunes from different tuners I compare. Big difference
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/8c0564996c5c9648d3bbac2ea8f160eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/0a36698b7d2c56f44ab8b4d5fe240c8a.jpg) good vs not good to much ethanol knock stopped pressure dropped
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 07:22:27 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 07:22:27 PM
Timing has nothing to do with fuel pressure
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 22, 2017, 07:31:05 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 22, 2017, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/8c0564996c5c9648d3bbac2ea8f160eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/0a36698b7d2c56f44ab8b4d5fe240c8a.jpg) good vs not good to much ethanol knock stopped pressure dropped
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IMO, fuel pressure issues with "too much ethanol" is due to having too much ethanol, you need more volume of ethanol than of normal gas, so if the mix was too heavy on ethanol fuel needed would be higher, thus taxing pumps more. That is my .02 on that.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 07:42:07 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 07:42:07 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 22, 2017, 07:31:05 PMYea I was trying to stop knock and it did but was not safeQuote from: BoostedSho2010 on January 22, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/8c0564996c5c9648d3bbac2ea8f160eb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170122/0a36698b7d2c56f44ab8b4d5fe240c8a.jpg) good vs not good to much ethanol knock stopped pressure dropped
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IMO, fuel pressure issues with "too much ethanol" is due to having too much ethanol, you need more volume of ethanol than of normal gas, so if the mix was too heavy on ethanol fuel needed would be higher, thus taxing pumps more. That is my .02 on that.
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 23, 2017, 02:06:32 AM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 23, 2017, 02:06:32 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 07:22:27 PMI know but it has something to do with hesitation. My car hesitates a lot when it does not have enough timing. Compared to when it's dialed in.
Timing has nothing to do with fuel pressure
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 23, 2017, 03:18:44 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 23, 2017, 03:18:44 AM
Quote from: BoostedSho2010 on January 23, 2017, 02:06:32 AMQuote from: AJP turbo on January 22, 2017, 07:22:27 PMI know but it has something to do with hesitation. My car hesitates a lot when it does not have enough timing. Compared to when it's dialed in.
Timing has nothing to do with fuel pressure
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Your car hesitates because of something else...Timing follows load...The ECU is always trying to run the max amount of spark allowed.....It wants to tickle the knock sensor.
Basically the knock logic is running the max allowed spark at all times.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 10:46:26 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 10:46:26 AM
Is there a way to see what voltage the HPFP solenoid is getting with the SCT? I wonder if the solenoid is getting incorrect voltage once it starts going higher than stock fuel demand.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Not sure if it helps or not, but here is a log of my XSport in cold(er) temps. I'm not certain, but I assume the fuel system is the same as the SHO?
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
My log looks very similar to MiWiAu even though he is running more boost(1.5 psi more), the curve, frp recovery and variation is oddly similar.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 23, 2017, 03:03:31 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 23, 2017, 03:03:31 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 02:59:39 PMQuote from: MiWiAu on January 19, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Not sure if it helps or not, but here is a log of my XSport in cold(er) temps. I'm not certain, but I assume the fuel system is the same as the SHO?
I also had the AJP boost regulator installed, so it would have helped minimize pressure drops during shifts.
Ambient: 8.6 F
IAT2: mid 50s at start of runs
Target Boost: 14.5 PSI
Note, since this log was taken, I've changed the regulator boost reference and moved down to 15.95 PSI springs, which helps with the pressure drops. We've not had any bitter cold since making these changes, but if it gets back down close to 0, I will log again for comparison.
My log looks very similar to MiWiAu even though he is running more boost(1.5 psi more), the curve, frp recovery and variation is oddly similar.
I'm not sure there were that similar...I'd have to see exactly which 2 you are looking at....But his boost was higher AND the temps were super frigid and his recovery was much better if I remember...Your log show a clear lack of fueling for the boost level
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 23, 2017, 03:18:29 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on January 23, 2017, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 23, 2017, 10:46:26 AMYou can plug the X4 into the car once you plug the lap top in you can see much more.
Is there a way to see what voltage the HPFP solenoid is getting with the SCT? I wonder if the solenoid is getting incorrect voltage once it starts going higher than stock fuel demand.
Only fuel pump % current config
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 24, 2017, 11:37:36 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 24, 2017, 11:37:36 AM
Quick update, I emailed LMS and Anthony sent the logs of the runs after the LPFP change to their head calibrator. I also sent them the picture of the HPFP to show that it is also new. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 24, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 24, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
You sent them logs that you did via livelink sct?...that's interesting since they dont use sct and they said the data provided is not reliable....it makes it easy to use that program if you dont have one of your own...may as well lower overhead
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 24, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on January 24, 2017, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 24, 2017, 12:51:56 PM
You sent them logs that you did via livelink sct?...that's interesting since they dont use sct and they said the data provided is not reliable....it makes it easy to use that program if you dont have one of your own...may as well lower overhead
I asked this question earlier... the OP said their stance hasn't changed but they are willing to entertain them for this issue...
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 24, 2017, 02:19:16 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 24, 2017, 02:19:16 PM
There is no other option unless they send me a device of their own to log. Also hopefully a sign that they are serious about finding out WTF is going on.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
We have offered to have the customer bring the vehicle to us for a diagnostic test. At this point we are still believing this to be a mechanical issue but cannot confirm until we can go hands on with the vehicle. As it has been stated above, this is a rare instance, we have many of these vehicles out there without this issue with the same tunes. Both us and the customer are quite baffled by the instance but we are working diligently to not only pinpoint the issue but solve it as well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 24, 2017, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 24, 2017, 03:13:00 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PMThanks and due appreciate LMS taking there time and resources in resolving the OP issues once and for all. Z :thumb: :thumb:
We have offered to have the customer bring the vehicle to us for a diagnostic test. At this point we are still believing this to be a mechanical issue but cannot confirm until we can go hands on with the vehicle. As it has been stated above, this is a rare instance, we have many of these vehicles out there without this issue with the same tunes. Both us and the customer are quite baffled by the instance but we are working diligently to not only pinpoint the issue but solve it as well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 24, 2017, 06:20:29 PM
Post by: SHOdded on January 24, 2017, 06:20:29 PM
Would love to see this resolved. Internet opinions can only do so much LOL.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on January 24, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on January 24, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
We have offered to have the customer bring the vehicle to us for a diagnostic test. At this point we are still believing this to be a mechanical issue but cannot confirm until we can go hands on with the vehicle. As it has been stated above, this is a rare instance, we have many of these vehicles out there without this issue with the same tunes. Both us and the customer are quite baffled by the instance but we are working diligently to not only pinpoint the issue but solve it as well.
Good on you LME, glad to see this, hopefully it gets resolved favorably!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 25, 2017, 12:39:38 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 25, 2017, 12:39:38 PM
Thanks to everyone who has offered there support on the Topic on hand but for the time being further discussions will continue as soon as we hear back from the OP,Thanks in advance. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on February 04, 2017, 10:26:31 AM
Post by: ZSHO on February 04, 2017, 10:26:31 AM
I would remind everyone to please keep your discussions grounded and straight to the point,and thanks for your cooperation. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 04, 2017, 10:53:22 AM
Post by: polskifacet on February 04, 2017, 10:53:22 AM
Hey guys,
Huge shout out to AJP (*1000) for helping me out (dozens of emails back and forth) with a different tune(s) as well as FoMoCoSHO for sending me his SCT X3 to test with. How could I forget ZSHO!! For continued sanity checks.
The logs are available on my hosting site http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
AJP did end up alleviating the FRP with tuning magic but he is still convinced there is some other underlying issue. I feel like at this point I am at the mercy of LMS in finding this gremlin. I have done everything I could from my end that made sense, I don't feel any more part swapping will be efficient without fully understanding what is happening and I have obviously tried a different tune/tuner.
On the bright side, it was fun working with you guys, logging, trying different things. Thank you. Stay "tuned" for progress with LMS.
Huge shout out to AJP (*1000) for helping me out (dozens of emails back and forth) with a different tune(s) as well as FoMoCoSHO for sending me his SCT X3 to test with. How could I forget ZSHO!! For continued sanity checks.
The logs are available on my hosting site http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/ (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/)
AJP did end up alleviating the FRP with tuning magic but he is still convinced there is some other underlying issue. I feel like at this point I am at the mercy of LMS in finding this gremlin. I have done everything I could from my end that made sense, I don't feel any more part swapping will be efficient without fully understanding what is happening and I have obviously tried a different tune/tuner.
On the bright side, it was fun working with you guys, logging, trying different things. Thank you. Stay "tuned" for progress with LMS.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: MiWiAu on February 04, 2017, 11:00:56 AM
Post by: MiWiAu on February 04, 2017, 11:00:56 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on February 04, 2017, 10:53:22 AM
AJP did end up alleviating the FRP with tuning magic but he is still convinced there is some other underlying issue. I feel like at this point I am at the mercy of LMS in finding this gremlin. I have done everything I could from my end that made sense, I don't feel any more part swapping will be efficient without fully understanding what is happening and I have obviously tried a different tune/tuner.
Thanks for the update! Some other underlying issue with hardware? The LMS tune? Did the AJP tune magic completely resolve the fuel pressure issue via "normal" adjustments, or was some sort of unique compensation required to resolve?
I guess what I'm getting at: were you able to completely rule out hardware and isolate the FRP issue to the tune?
Thanks again for updating!!
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Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 04, 2017, 11:31:12 AM
Post by: polskifacet on February 04, 2017, 11:31:12 AM
From my understanding he did have to compensate. I will let him give facts.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
Logged after R&R rear turbo boost side pipe and changing waste gate hose.
0to100 (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog18.csv)
3rdGear (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog19.csv)
When looking at 0-100 and both LPFP and HPFP, they look to go up and down together. A drop of 20 psi on the lpfp equals something like 400 psi on the hpfp. Seems like the whole system is having trouble keeping up vs just the HPFP after the above mentioned repairs.
0to100 (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog18.csv)
3rdGear (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog19.csv)
When looking at 0-100 and both LPFP and HPFP, they look to go up and down together. A drop of 20 psi on the lpfp equals something like 400 psi on the hpfp. Seems like the whole system is having trouble keeping up vs just the HPFP after the above mentioned repairs.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on February 18, 2017, 09:37:41 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on February 18, 2017, 09:37:41 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
Logged after R&R rear turbo boost side pipe and changing waste gate hose.
0to100 (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog18.csv)
3rdGear (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/Logs/datalog18.csv)
When looking at 0-100 and both LPFP and HPFP, they look to go up and down together. A drop of 20 psi on the lpfp equals something like 400 psi on the hpfp. Seems like the whole system is having trouble keeping up vs just the HPFP after the above mentioned repairs.
Interesting... however... both links point to the 0 to 100 Datalog18.csv..
Lots of KR through the entire run.. this looks like its the LMS tune based on spark and boost? And yea.. you are still having fuel pressure issues... your IAT2s are nice and warm 110F+ and ambient is close to 57..
Mike B. (EPP Guy) did a lot of experimenting with the LPFP and HPFP... found a direct correlation between the amount of pressure provided by the LPFP and HPFP being able to keep sustained pressure... People have noted with the Boost-A-Pump module which overdrives the LPFP seeing a couple hundred PSI increase on the HPFP side...
If your LPFP can't keep up, then I would look there.. but again.. I think you replaced that already?
Here is a log of my 4+X 93 Race Tune from LMS.. ambient is a bit higher.. around 70F but my IAT's are significantly colder which should mean my fuel system is taking a harder hit than yours(I believe)... At least you will have a baseline of what it should look like...
Interestingly enough.. the V10 tune you are running is commanding the same load as the 4+X.. Only difference I can tell in the logs, is LMS has removed pretty much all the torque control from your tune...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 10:45:03 AM
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 10:45:03 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 18, 2017, 09:37:41 AMFixed Links
Interesting... however... both links point to the 0 to 100 Datalog18.csv..
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 18, 2017, 09:37:41 AMCould be gas
Lots of KR through the entire run.. this looks like its the LMS tune based on spark and boost? And yea.. you are still having fuel pressure issues... your IAT2s are nice and warm 110F+ and ambient is close to 57..
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 18, 2017, 09:37:41 AMYes replaced. Don't understand how my car is demanding or not providing so much fuel. Driving me nuts that I have my hands tied.
If your LPFP can't keep up, then I would look there.. but again.. I think you replaced that already?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 10:50:47 AM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 10:50:47 AM
The 3rd gear pull....you sure that's AJP's tune?
I ask because lambse is pretty rich.
I ask because lambse is pretty rich.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 10:54:04 AM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 10:54:04 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 10:50:47 AMYour LPFP is providing plenty of pressure to the HPFP, the lowest on the sweep was 96 psi which is more than enough to prime the HPFP for full output.
The 3rd gear pull....you sure that's AJP's tune?
I ask because lambse is pretty rich.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 11:44:36 AM
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 11:44:36 AM
Its lms 93 v8. Not running AJP as he said that something is jacked anyway since he had to use throttle plate heavily to control boost spikes.
Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk
Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 12:01:06 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on February 18, 2017, 12:01:06 PM
HDP-5 input pressure is 58-101 PSI.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
Post by: polskifacet on February 18, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
LMS would have to hook up a scope to the HPFP wires and throw it on the dyno. I don't think its mechanical. There are 3 quick connects on the low pressure side with mostly hard pipe and new pumps.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on March 13, 2017, 05:04:07 PM
Post by: polskifacet on March 13, 2017, 05:04:07 PM
Update. I am driving to LMS at the end of this month! Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on March 13, 2017, 05:12:10 PM
Post by: ZSHO on March 13, 2017, 05:12:10 PM
NICE!!.. maybe we will meetup in Different Paths. Z :)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on March 13, 2017, 07:17:41 PM
Post by: SHOdded on March 13, 2017, 07:17:41 PM
Good luck, polski!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on March 14, 2017, 08:59:43 AM
Post by: ZSHO on March 14, 2017, 08:59:43 AM
I just wanted to give a Big :bigthanx: to Andy (shop manager)and Anthony over at LMS for there Fine continued support in hopefully troubleshooting Polski vehicle and please keep us updated on all counts and best of luck. Z :thumb:
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on March 14, 2017, 10:18:52 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on March 14, 2017, 10:18:52 AM
Yes polski has been suffering for over 3 months...luckily he had others means to identify a problem which then prompted some help after much persistence. So hopefully he can finally get some closure as it appeared he was put on the back burner...so ultimately good on lms for sticking with it
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on March 30, 2017, 10:15:48 PM
Post by: polskifacet on March 30, 2017, 10:15:48 PM
Dudes,
Made it out to LMS and back. Waiting for LMS to email me a recap of the day and hopefully they reply here to shed light on next steps. I don't feel like I can say much more but I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The guys over there are great, special shout-out to Ethan and Z for making it happen.
IIRC Dyno said 353 awhp
Made it out to LMS and back. Waiting for LMS to email me a recap of the day and hopefully they reply here to shed light on next steps. I don't feel like I can say much more but I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The guys over there are great, special shout-out to Ethan and Z for making it happen.
IIRC Dyno said 353 awhp
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on March 30, 2017, 10:56:56 PM
Post by: ZSHO on March 30, 2017, 10:56:56 PM
Finger's crossed. Z :ok:
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 12:51:51 PM
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 12:51:51 PM
Posting log after Lms visit.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
So what was wrong with your fuel system?
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 02:06:31 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
So what was wrong with your fuel system?
Interesting your fuel pressure never hits target still... stay below 1900psi through the entire run... I have noticed on my datalogs, if I do a low rpm pull starting around 2500rpms in third like this datalog, I am able to hit target fuel pressure for 2200psi+..
****EDIT: Maybe the almost freezing temperature had a lot to do with the above statement...
I wonder what your datalog would look like from a dig...
Curious myself what LMS was able to find...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 02:55:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PMFrom what I understand, it shouldn't be mechanically faulty at this point in time or they would have seen/taken apart more. LMS is digging deeper into the issue.
So what was wrong with your fuel system?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 02:58:07 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 02:55:50 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PMFrom what I understand, it shouldn't be mechanically faulty at this point in time or they would have seen/taken apart more. LMS is digging deeper into the issue.
So what was wrong with your fuel system?
Did they charge you for this?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
Post by: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 02:58:07 PMNot a penny, and had a chauffeur take me to the Ford Museum and back lol. Also sporting a earned Livernoise license plate bracket.Quote from: polskifacet on March 31, 2017, 02:55:50 PMDid they charge you for this?Quote from: AJP turbo on March 31, 2017, 01:38:56 PMFrom what I understand, it shouldn't be mechanically faulty at this point in time or they would have seen/taken apart more. LMS is digging deeper into the issue.
So what was wrong with your fuel system?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on March 31, 2017, 03:24:01 PM
That's phenomenal! Don't know many places that offer that kind of customer service. LMS definitely just went up a few notches in my book.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 07:06:47 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 07:06:47 AM
Is that datalog from the dyno you did?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 01, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 01, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
Not from the dyno, no. I do however still have massive hesitation when it downshifts during WOT. Concerned that they said it safe when there is no way this is healthy.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 06:43:02 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 06:43:02 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 01, 2017, 05:21:50 PM
Not from the dyno, no. I do however still have massive hesitation when it downshifts during WOT. Concerned that they said it safe when there is no way this is healthy.
Do you have a data log of the hesitation? Sounds like throttle closing...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 01, 2017, 07:30:59 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 01, 2017, 07:30:59 PM
I would have to go through my email. IIRC the hpfp goes under about 1200 psi when I notice the hesitation. Feels like it has no power.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 07:47:55 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 01, 2017, 07:47:55 PM
Oh, still same issue persists then. No worries about a log. Hope they can figure it out!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
Had an open piece of road to do some testing on. It seems like it struggles at lower RPM to meet fuel demand. If i floor it at a higher speed and its going through the gears, it is meeting desired HPFP, up shifted from 3rd to 4th and good fuel pressure through all of 4th.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:00:23 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
Had an open piece of road to do some testing on. It seems like it struggles at lower RPM to meet fuel demand. If i floor it at a higher speed and its going through the gears, it is meeting desired HPFP, up shifted from 3rd to 4th and good fuel pressure through all of 4th.
We are getting to warmer weather now which helps with the fuel pressure issues... less dense air...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Ramairetransam on April 03, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
Post by: Ramairetransam on April 03, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:00:23 AMQuote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
Had an open piece of road to do some testing on. It seems like it struggles at lower RPM to meet fuel demand. If i floor it at a higher speed and its going through the gears, it is meeting desired HPFP, up shifted from 3rd to 4th and good fuel pressure through all of 4th.
We are getting to warmer weather now which helps with the fuel pressure issues... less dense air...
mine seems like it does it at the top of 2nd and no other gear or place . My torque app shows 2 degress of knock . running 93 from a top tier place with new plugs
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:19:35 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:19:35 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:00:23 AMQuote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
Had an open piece of road to do some testing on. It seems like it struggles at lower RPM to meet fuel demand. If i floor it at a higher speed and its going through the gears, it is meeting desired HPFP, up shifted from 3rd to 4th and good fuel pressure through all of 4th.
We are getting to warmer weather now which helps with the fuel pressure issues... less dense air...
It was 50 last night. I've logged in the 60's and still have low pressure. If the pump can keep desired at 140 mph WOT , how is something wrong with it?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
I thought you said at lower rpms? I am confused... so I am guessing that a 0-60 pull is when you still have issues? Maybe I am misunderstanding?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:23:05 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:23:05 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
I thought you said at lower rpms? I am confused... so I am guessing that a 0-60 pull is when you still have issues? Maybe I am misunderstanding?
0-60 or pretty much any time it downshifts @ WOT
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 03, 2017, 11:24:10 AM
Post by: ZSHO on April 03, 2017, 11:24:10 AM
Did you ever check the LPFP ?.Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:24:13 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:24:13 AM
And LMS said to not worry about the drop in FP and accompanying hesitation?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:03 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:03 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on April 03, 2017, 11:24:10 AMFrom what I understand LMS put a fuel pressure gauge on it and ran it on the dyno, came out ok.
Did you ever check the LPFP ?.Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:51 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:51 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:24:13 AMYes this is what they said.
And LMS said to not worry about the drop in FP and accompanying hesitation?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:28:57 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:51 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:24:13 AMYes this is what they said.
And LMS said to not worry about the drop in FP and accompanying hesitation?
That is phenomenal.... did you ever monitor your STFT when this hesitation occurred? I can mail you out my spare HPFP to test a different fuel pump if you want... I would like it back though.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:32:46 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:32:46 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:28:57 AMQuote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:26:51 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:24:13 AMYes this is what they said.
And LMS said to not worry about the drop in FP and accompanying hesitation?
That is phenomenal.... did you ever monitor your STFT when this hesitation occurred? I can mail you out my spare HPFP to test a different fuel pump if you want... I would like it back though.
After experiencing the hesitation I was fairly pissed as I would have expected them to just turn down my tune until they find the root cause. I am on my second HPFP as it came with the long block but thanks for the offer bud. Logging with AJP the STFT were ok.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:35:18 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:35:18 AM
Hmmm... how low was your fuel rail pressure getting, do you remember? I have had mine drop to 800psi before and it hesitated/shuddered until the pressure came back up.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:37:13 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:37:13 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:35:18 AM
Hmmm... how low was your fuel rail pressure getting, do you remember? I have had mine drop to 800psi before and it hesitated/shuddered until the pressure came back up.
Anything under about 1200 psi starts causing issues. The lowest I have seen mine go is 6 mpa / 900 PSI.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I have a hard time with their answer.. I have their most aggressive non-meth tune (4+x Race Tune) and the LOWEST I have ever seen my rail pressure drop was 1950psi...
Even Torrie doesn't like lower than 1500psi and he is a bit more liberal with variances in rail pressure than LMS...
Weird.... I'm glad they troubleshot it without charging you... the resultant answer is a bit baffling....
Are they still looking into it?
Even Torrie doesn't like lower than 1500psi and he is a bit more liberal with variances in rail pressure than LMS...
Weird.... I'm glad they troubleshot it without charging you... the resultant answer is a bit baffling....
Are they still looking into it?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:48:30 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:48:30 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I have a hard time with their answer.. I have their most aggressive non-meth tune (4+x Race Tune) and the LOWEST I have ever seen my rail pressure drop was 1950psi...
Even Torrie doesn't like lower than 1500psi and he is a bit more liberal with variances in rail pressure than LMS...
Weird.... I'm glad they troubleshot it without charging you... the resultant answer is a bit baffling....
Are they still looking into it?
From what I understand they are looking into it as I am not the only one. Unfortunately Andy the shop manager was out last week which is probably the reason for the small amount of info I got. I am still chewing on all of this as I am still not sure what resulted from driving out there.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 12:04:21 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 12:04:21 PM
Recap:
- From time spent with AJP we know the issue is at a deeper level then just LMS tuning.
- Confirmed that both pumps are new/mechanically working correctly.
- Confirmed that car is making expected horsepower.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on April 03, 2017, 01:49:52 PM
Post by: lamrith on April 03, 2017, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 11:23:05 AMCan you post a log of one of those WOT runs done after your last trip to LMS? I am skimming the thread trying to catch up, but it would be nice to see a WOT run log of the current tune with all the current new parts and any tune changes they might have made.Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
I thought you said at lower rpms? I am confused... so I am guessing that a 0-60 pull is when you still have issues? Maybe I am misunderstanding?
0-60 or pretty much any time it downshifts @ WOT
As for Dyno, how did they dyno it? Based on the smooth RPM curve it was the classic 3rd gear locked in pull. They are not seeing WOT shifts (I do not think Dyno's can handle that sort of jerking), so not surprising they did a single gear pull, but it is something to keep in mind on why you are still having an issue. Because of that sort of dyno tuning they will never see the issue you are having, as it is a nice flat/linear (while heavy) load pull they are doing. A tuner cannot tune for something they cannot "see". Dynos are great tuning devices, they just cannot simulate full range driving conditions. I would have thought based on what you have been saying all along that they would have taken the car out someplace to really simulate your issue with WOT&shift performance.
I will probably deserve a Gibb's slap for this... You have replaced all the pump side stuff already, but have you changed the fuel filter/blown the fuel lines clear during one of the times you have had to tear things apart? Have you traced the hardlines and made sure one of the hardlines is not dinged, or kinked someplace? How about soft lines? Any sort is small deformation or restriction can cause it to have a hard time recovering from sudden spikes in demand. Might be "ok" on smooth RPM ramp up, just enough headroom to keep up, but not flow enough to recover from demands like can happen with WOT shifts as well as sustained demand staying WOT.
I am new to these cars myself, but think Steel might be on a good track. You are talking with AJP, have you considered his boost regulator mod? It takes the stress off the Fuel system post WOT shifts and keeps MAP constant and level the entire time without messing with the throttle blade. Might be a bandaid to underlying problem, but I would be curious to see how your car did with that mod installed and tuned for it..?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 01:58:24 PM
Even on the third gear sweep he posted his fuel pressure is lacking.... I doubt the AJP mod will help much..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 03, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
Everything fuel related was checked at least twice and LMS also would have seen LPFP drop when they supposedly had the gauge hooked up under the hood. I think it is narrowed down to fuel leaking which would be weird as its not running rich and I'm getting 28 mpg highway or there is something wrong with how the ecu is controlling the HPFP.
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 03:26:34 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 03, 2017, 03:26:34 PM
Yea, they probably hooked up a gauge to the schrader valve under the hood up top on the passenger side. If that is good then you can say everything from that point to the tank is probably ok. Then a visual on the lines which are very easy to see to the HPFP.. then after the HPFP you can trace to the start of the rails... to inspect it further would require you to remove the intake manifold... don't think they did that... even if you did, not a WHOLE lot you can tell visually from that point...
I am not sure where the sensor is that picks up the rail pressure...
If it was a leaky injector he would be having other problems too... stuttering while idle among other things...
Honestly Brad has mentioned with mine anyway, that there is logic in the ECU that SCT can't see that maybe at play with fueling as well...
Hope LMS can get to the bottom of it for you.. again... I have a spare LPFP, FPDM, and HPFP... if they come back saying you need one of them, let me know...
I am not sure where the sensor is that picks up the rail pressure...
If it was a leaky injector he would be having other problems too... stuttering while idle among other things...
Honestly Brad has mentioned with mine anyway, that there is logic in the ECU that SCT can't see that maybe at play with fueling as well...
Hope LMS can get to the bottom of it for you.. again... I have a spare LPFP, FPDM, and HPFP... if they come back saying you need one of them, let me know...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 04, 2017, 03:42:44 PM
Post by: ZSHO on April 04, 2017, 03:42:44 PM
I highly doubt the FRP was even checked as mentioned above by StealBlueSho.
Its just to many variables to consider in this situation!!. Z
The wiring below is for a 13 SHO and will certainly try to see what i can dig up in the FSM.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kvx1OeJh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/v4sNDg9h.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/4QySqKEh.png?1)
Its just to many variables to consider in this situation!!. Z
The wiring below is for a 13 SHO and will certainly try to see what i can dig up in the FSM.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kvx1OeJh.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/v4sNDg9h.png?1)(http://i.imgur.com/4QySqKEh.png?1)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 09:43:26 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 09:43:26 PM
Here is another 89 tune log where it downshifts into first gear at WOT and has the most trouble with 91 or 93 tunes. It never shifts into second normally when I do this. If I wot from a dig, there is no issue. Fuel pressure matches desired.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 07, 2017, 10:08:04 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 07, 2017, 10:08:04 PM
hmmm interesting.. you fuel trims don't look off... but yea.. I can see it...
Your desired tip and desired FRP both drop.. your wastegate duty cycle goes to zero...and your throttle closes up almost all the way.. I bet it feels like the whole car comes to grinding halt!
The weirdness is you usually see this when you are running out of fuel.. BUT I have dropped to 1000psi before the throttle kicked in to save pressure... yours is getting to around 1500 psi.. PLUS your dsd frp is requesting a drop as well.. weird.. Brad might have some better insight..
Your desired tip and desired FRP both drop.. your wastegate duty cycle goes to zero...and your throttle closes up almost all the way.. I bet it feels like the whole car comes to grinding halt!
The weirdness is you usually see this when you are running out of fuel.. BUT I have dropped to 1000psi before the throttle kicked in to save pressure... yours is getting to around 1500 psi.. PLUS your dsd frp is requesting a drop as well.. weird.. Brad might have some better insight..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 10:17:01 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 10:17:01 PM
bah seems like everything lms changes in their tune is just giving me a big middle finger.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 07, 2017, 10:20:19 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 07, 2017, 10:20:19 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 10:17:01 PM
bah seems like everything lms changes in their tune is just giving me a big middle finger.
That's how I felt with Torrie tuning mine... I eventually moved on...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 10:24:17 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 07, 2017, 10:24:17 PM
There is obviously something different with certain strategies / pcms. In my case brad also was like WTF so I have a double ended poop stick lol
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 01:13:46 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 01:13:46 PM
If i put it in sport mode and use the paddle shifters so it holds gear, it pukes on itself pretty much every time, misses the gear, bounces off the rev limiter etc first to second upshift. In D or Auto S mode its fine.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 08, 2017, 03:54:02 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 08, 2017, 03:54:02 PM
I dont think its the strategy....i still think its a hardware issue.
I see that you have a 1000 watt subwoofer...i wonder if there is a grounding problem or a battery draw....maybe we should log battery voltage during the pulls and when the issue presents itslef....injectors do very strange things when they dont get the power they need as well as the intank fuel pump...this just occurred to me
You should get your alternator and battery checked...you might understand why but its important for the fuel delivery
I see that you have a 1000 watt subwoofer...i wonder if there is a grounding problem or a battery draw....maybe we should log battery voltage during the pulls and when the issue presents itslef....injectors do very strange things when they dont get the power they need as well as the intank fuel pump...this just occurred to me
You should get your alternator and battery checked...you might understand why but its important for the fuel delivery
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
ive experienced low voltage on a different vehicle and what it does to power/fuel. Battery was replaced right before they changed the long block. I monitor voltage when I pound the sub and its always 14.x. Trans is also acting up since the beginning.
I have an extra 4 gauge ground going to the shock tower and have cleaned all the stock grounds.
I have an extra 4 gauge ground going to the shock tower and have cleaned all the stock grounds.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 08, 2017, 06:53:16 PM
Post by: ZSHO on April 08, 2017, 06:53:16 PM
I have to agree with AJP assessment above and would try to rule out it being a voltage drop in conjunction with it's battery components causing your issues by checking the ground cables and straps for corrosion by the engine bay and curious if your issues started after installing the high powered system.
Did you install a good quality capacitor?
I wonder if disconnecting the power/ground from the amps for a couple of days has an overall effect on the performance of the vehicle!!.
I found an interesting thread over the Flex forum which might be somewhat beneficial.IDK. Z
https://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9276 (https://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9276)
Did you install a good quality capacitor?
I wonder if disconnecting the power/ground from the amps for a couple of days has an overall effect on the performance of the vehicle!!.
I found an interesting thread over the Flex forum which might be somewhat beneficial.IDK. Z
https://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9276 (https://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9276)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 09:33:00 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 09:33:00 PM
I feel like ive done my due diligence on the power/ground front. I also don't have the radio on when testing or spirited driving. I would look deeper if I was experiencing any issues on non lms modified "systems". Once I go to 87 octane tune where its completely stock values on the engine side, it works like its supposed to and only the trans is modified which I still have issue with it in (sst?) mode but no such issue in D or S. I can put it back to stock and I am 99% certain that I can't reproduce any of the issues. I have emails that all the issues were brought up to lms fairly soon after I bought the tune. I had zero drivability issues prior to installing the tune.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 08, 2017, 09:51:43 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 08, 2017, 09:51:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAJeDX-T-Eg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAJeDX-T-Eg)
It is my understanding you shouldn't be at 14+ all the time with the battery management software.
It is my understanding you shouldn't be at 14+ all the time with the battery management software.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 08, 2017, 10:44:58 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 08, 2017, 10:44:58 PM
You didn't happen to see what your torque output was on that dyno did you?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 10:51:42 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 08, 2017, 10:44:58 PMStill havent given me the dyno sheet.
You didn't happen to see what your torque output was on that dyno did you?
Here is brads tune with voltage. Tried everything to reproduce trans issue, cant. Will post 3rd gear shortly.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 11:03:08 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 08, 2017, 11:03:08 PM
Ajp 3rd gear
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 07:29:34 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 07:29:34 PM
Unfortunate that there is no pid for HPFP voltage or something with how the solenoid is working. I was hoping that LMS might do some advanced troubleshooting but that obviously didn't happen. I am still having trouble believing its a hardware issue since with AJP tune the fuel rail pressure is smooth enough & strong. Yes the throttle angle decreases in lower RPM but it opens up towards the higher rpm where the pump has more cycles to keep desired. It is also troubling that the LMS tune is making my trans puke while AJP tune does nothing even close to puking. I'm more frustrated after the LMS visit but I won't give up even though it would be easier to just go with AJPs' tune. I do not wish to shed a bad light on LMS but I have been reaching out to them every day since the visit and still don't have any answers or a game plan on next steps.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 08:06:06 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 07:29:34 PM
Unfortunate that there is no pid for HPFP voltage or something with how the solenoid is working. I was hoping that LMS might do some advanced troubleshooting but that obviously didn't happen. I am still having trouble believing its a hardware issue since with AJP tune the fuel rail pressure is smooth enough & strong. Yes the throttle angle decreases in lower RPM but it opens up towards the higher rpm where the pump has more cycles to keep desired. It is also troubling that the LMS tune is making my trans puke while AJP tune does nothing even close to puking. I'm more frustrated after the LMS visit but I won't give up even though it would be easier to just go with AJPs' tune. I do not wish to shed a bad light on LMS but I have been reaching out to them every day since the visit and still don't have any answers or a game plan on next steps.
You are on another thread about the trans issue with the LMS tune, similar to the trans issue I was having... I went ahead and talked to Anthony about the issues I was having... he sent me back another tune for the 4+X (about a week later...) that is labeled softer shift... loaded it today and drove around.. so far so good.. but it usually took until the trans adapted before I started having issues... so we will see.. if it fixed my issue with their tune might fix yours??
And Brad said he thinks there is a hardware problem with yours in this thread.. he can control how aggressive the throttle steps in to keep your load under control... I have a winter and summer setup through him and the difference is how much the throttle steps in.... in any event... I would trust Brad.. he probably spent 10X if not more time than LMS going through the data he got off your car... if he thinks there is an issue outside of the tune, he is probably right....
Have you datalogged the car stock to see what things look like?
I am not trying to be a **** really, and I understand your frustrated... but you have two well respected tuners telling you the same thing...
I would wait for LMS.. are they even responding to your inquiries? If not, maybe take it back to Ford and have them take a look at it... they did the motor swap right?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 09, 2017, 09:15:42 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 09, 2017, 09:15:42 PM
Be nice to have access to the Ford Parts bin right now, for test & toss day.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 09:18:00 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 09:18:00 PM
I have a spare LPFP, FPDM, and HPFP... if you need one to test, please feel free to let me know. I will even cover shipping there and back...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 09, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Post by: ZSHO on April 09, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Great discussion so far but let's keep the vulgar words at Bay,thanks. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 09:22:03 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 09, 2017, 09:22:03 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on April 09, 2017, 09:20:47 PM
Great discussion so far but let's keep the vulgar words at Bay,thanks. Z
My apologies, however, I must say... I was referring to my self with the profanity... so it doesn't count...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
Nothing against Brad or LMS but saying something is broken without being able to back that statement up with what is broken, isn't good enough. Stock logs attached, wow the car feels different. Just from what I could quickly see, throttle plate is aggressively controling load and wastegates never open all the way up, I forget which log but there was a 36 psi spike on the sensor before the throttle body on one of the tunes, that just doesn't seem efficient. Open to all suggestions, thanks guys.
Retract my statement about wastegates never opening completely and boost spike after looking at all 3 stock logs.
Retract my statement about wastegates never opening completely and boost spike after looking at all 3 stock logs.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 10, 2017, 12:31:45 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 10, 2017, 12:31:45 AM
I feel your frustration...wish i could give give a better explanation to "back up" the statement with what is broken...im not saying something is broken necessarily. But something is amiss
Even in all the strategies ive seen none of the changes are in the fuel pump sections..often its really small insignificant things
What i do see is a fuel system that stuggles at a boost level where nobody else's does..ive never had to use the throttle that aggressively to control boost at that boost level.
Ill look but i dont think i have tuned anyone else with your strategy but i bet LMS and unleashed have so if there is a duplicate strategy out there that is tuned we should get them to post a log then we could rule out the strategy being the problem
Its just i have seen enough logs to know that that boost should not tax the fuel system and show the symptoms yours does so i have to say its a hardware problem....could i be wrong, sure...actually hope i am
Even in all the strategies ive seen none of the changes are in the fuel pump sections..often its really small insignificant things
What i do see is a fuel system that stuggles at a boost level where nobody else's does..ive never had to use the throttle that aggressively to control boost at that boost level.
Ill look but i dont think i have tuned anyone else with your strategy but i bet LMS and unleashed have so if there is a duplicate strategy out there that is tuned we should get them to post a log then we could rule out the strategy being the problem
Its just i have seen enough logs to know that that boost should not tax the fuel system and show the symptoms yours does so i have to say its a hardware problem....could i be wrong, sure...actually hope i am
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 09, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
Nothing against Brad or LMS but saying something is broken without being able to back that statement up with what is broken, isn't good enough. Stock logs attached, wow the car feels different. Just from what I could quickly see, throttle plate is aggressively controling load andwastegates never open all the way up, I forget which log but there was a 36 psi spike on the sensor before the throttle body on one of the tunes, that just doesn't seem efficient.Open to all suggestions, thanks guys.
Retract my statement about wastegates never opening completely and boost spike after looking at all 3 stock logs.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AMCan you post a log of your latest LMS tune? It's crazy that our cars are so similar all the way down to the transmission.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AM
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:17:44 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:17:44 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AMCan you post a log of your latest LMS tune? It's crazy that our cars are so similar all the way down to the transmission.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
Yea, I can get another one... might take a bit as I have a heavy E20 mix right now so the rail pressure is lower than normal with the LMS tune since they run pretty rich....not a good comparison until I get standard 93 in it...
Lol... I just loaded Brads tune back on it since I verified the LMS tune was ok... which they missed turning of the rear O2s.... again...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PM
Post by: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 04:52:54 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 04:52:54 PM
Quote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
Tell them unless they would like to make your car payment then doing what you ask is all the reason they need.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PM
Quote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
Post by: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMThanks!! And Is that what you asked for "strategy update"? With my goofy Idle I can probably use that as a reason to get my local shop to do it.. "I was told the latest strategy fixes some random idle issues I have been having..."Quote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
:-p
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:27:23 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:27:23 PM
Exactly... the Ford dealership I eventually went too understood completely what I meant when I asked for a strategy update...
The service advisor wanted me to come back once I got the tune put back on so he could ride in it lol...
They also sourced me a new HPFP when I was trouble shooting a fueling issue AND price matched it from an online dealerships site...
The service advisor wanted me to come back once I got the tune put back on so he could ride in it lol...
They also sourced me a new HPFP when I was trouble shooting a fueling issue AND price matched it from an online dealerships site...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 06:36:45 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 06:36:45 PM
Polski, you sneak!
X3 received....perfect timing for the new acquisition to arrive!
Thanks!
X3 received....perfect timing for the new acquisition to arrive!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 08:00:04 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 08:00:04 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 06:36:45 PMI planned to throw a usb cable in there but it didn't physicaly make it inside the box lol. Can't thank you enough for aiding in that discovery, I hope you don't miss that one vin allowance!
Polski, you sneak!
X3 received....perfect timing for the new acquisition to arrive!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 08:08:27 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 08:08:27 PM
I would like to thank everyone with their 18 pages (so far) of support. Take a minute to get to know my car tinkering roots a little better as I see many of you as friends.
Had a little business with my brother Dave designing and fabricating a replacement part for one that Trd/Vortec failed on.
Site (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/Home.html)
Had a little business with my brother Dave designing and fabricating a replacement part for one that Trd/Vortec failed on.
Site (http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/Home.html)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 08:01:04 AM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 08:01:04 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 08:00:04 PMTry Gator Cable on eBay, they are slim and easily packaged WINK WINK.
I planned to throw a usb cable in there but it didn't physicaly make it inside the box lol. Can't thank you enough for aiding in that discovery, I hope you don't miss that one vin allowance!
http://stores.ebay.com/Gator-Cable (http://stores.ebay.com/Gator-Cable)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 08:42:49 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 08:42:49 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AMCan you post a log of your latest LMS tune? It's crazy that our cars are so similar all the way down to the transmission.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
This is the latest one I have from a LMS standpoint.. 4+X... the only difference with the newer tune is a softer shift... which honestly... isn't exactly soft, just not bone crunching and feeling the the tranny is going bang itself into oblivion...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 03:35:38 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 08:42:49 AMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AMCan you post a log of your latest LMS tune? It's crazy that our cars are so similar all the way down to the transmission.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
This is the latest one I have from a LMS standpoint.. 4+X... the only difference with the newer tune is a softer shift... which honestly... isn't exactly soft, just not bone crunching and feeling the the tranny is going bang itself into oblivion...
Bah perfect fuel pressure
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 03:38:17 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 03:35:38 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 08:42:49 AMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 10:57:23 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 10, 2017, 07:47:40 AMCan you post a log of your latest LMS tune? It's crazy that our cars are so similar all the way down to the transmission.
Looks like a completely normal stock log to me.... geeze...
This is the latest one I have from a LMS standpoint.. 4+X... the only difference with the newer tune is a softer shift... which honestly... isn't exactly soft, just not bone crunching and feeling the the tranny is going bang itself into oblivion...
Bah perfect fuel pressure
Sorry bud :-/ Any word from LMS?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 04:29:27 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 04:29:27 PM
Nope calling LMS on a daily basis at this point and not getting anywhere.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
With everyone thinking engine, the transmission is the wild card here. Or may be a flaw in the PCM strategy. Any way to get LME to get an engineer from Ford to look at it?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 05:23:05 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PMFrom what I understand, LMS can completely flash the PCM, even to another strategy. LMS mentioned transmission but then my answer to that was I'm about 30k miles deep with this issue and imagine the heat that would buildup if the trans was creating any sort of drag on the system. My trans temps are good and the fluid looks like I just poured it in.
With everyone thinking engine, the transmission is the wild card here. Or may be a flaw in the PCM strategy. Any way to get LME to get an engineer from Ford to look at it?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 05:25:24 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 05:25:24 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
With everyone thinking engine, the transmission is the wild card here. Or may be a flaw in the PCM strategy. Any way to get LME to get an engineer from Ford to look at it?
Would the transmission be causing the fueling issues?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:35:49 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:35:49 PM
Don't know. The back and forth between engine & transmission is too complicated for me, LOL. But since a MAF or MAP sensor affects shift strategy, you would think feedback from the trans would affect engine fueling decisions. Not unlike a "granny", or the PCM's way of dealing with something unusual that it can't put its' finger on.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 05:40:36 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 05:40:36 PM
And does LME actually have that kind of pull to get a Ford Engineer to look into??
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Alright....
So, lets recant everything, the vehicle had a hesitation at high RPM during cold weather scenarios on the v8 and v10 tunes.
A different tune was written by a different tune that tuned around the issue. After figuring out how to get hands on with the vehicle, we ran the vehicle on the
dyno. Adam Got here on thursday in the morning, it was raining and 40 degrees out. The vehicle was run 8-10 times during the tenure of it's visit. We attempted to replicate the conditions to no avail. Even dead cold with a fan blowing and the door open we were unable to replicate the hesitation on the vehicle with the 93 tune. All signs point to a fuel issue yet it was not able to be replicated while on a dyno, nor did it show in the logs that were taken on the dyno. We are at a loss here as we have over a thousand vehicles running the exact same tune with no similar issues. The only way we could potentially diagnose said issue is to have the vehicle for an extended period of time for full evaluation with no guarantee of finding the source of the issue.
Recently we have had 2 2013MY Ford Ecoboost vehicles (one Explorer, one SHO) that both experienced hesitations that ended up being a bad injector in both cases. Adam has a 2013MY vehicle. The problem being that we could not replicate the issue in the time that the vehicle was here. Adam's vehicle also put down sufficient if not above sufficient numbers for a 93 tune on an SHO. We maintain that in our professional opinion that the issue is with the vehicle itself and not the tune.
So, lets recant everything, the vehicle had a hesitation at high RPM during cold weather scenarios on the v8 and v10 tunes.
A different tune was written by a different tune that tuned around the issue. After figuring out how to get hands on with the vehicle, we ran the vehicle on the
dyno. Adam Got here on thursday in the morning, it was raining and 40 degrees out. The vehicle was run 8-10 times during the tenure of it's visit. We attempted to replicate the conditions to no avail. Even dead cold with a fan blowing and the door open we were unable to replicate the hesitation on the vehicle with the 93 tune. All signs point to a fuel issue yet it was not able to be replicated while on a dyno, nor did it show in the logs that were taken on the dyno. We are at a loss here as we have over a thousand vehicles running the exact same tune with no similar issues. The only way we could potentially diagnose said issue is to have the vehicle for an extended period of time for full evaluation with no guarantee of finding the source of the issue.
Recently we have had 2 2013MY Ford Ecoboost vehicles (one Explorer, one SHO) that both experienced hesitations that ended up being a bad injector in both cases. Adam has a 2013MY vehicle. The problem being that we could not replicate the issue in the time that the vehicle was here. Adam's vehicle also put down sufficient if not above sufficient numbers for a 93 tune on an SHO. We maintain that in our professional opinion that the issue is with the vehicle itself and not the tune.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 05:44:32 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 05:44:32 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Alright....
So, lets recant everything, the vehicle had a hesitation at high RPM during cold weather scenarios on the v8 and v10 tunes.
A different tune was written by a different tune that tuned around the issue. After figuring out how to get hands on with the vehicle, we ran the vehicle on the
dyno. Adam Got here on thursday in the morning, it was raining and 40 degrees out. The vehicle was run 8-10 times during the tenure of it's visit. We attempted to replicate the conditions to no avail. Even dead cold with a fan blowing and the door open we were unable to replicate the hesitation on the vehicle with the 93 tune. All signs point to a fuel issue yet it was not able to be replicated while on a dyno, nor did it show in the logs that were taken on the dyno. We are at a loss here as we have over a thousand vehicles running the exact same tune with no similar issues. The only way we could potentially diagnose said issue is to have the vehicle for an extended period of time for full evaluation with no guarantee of finding the source of the issue.
Recently we have had 2 2013MY Ford Ecoboost vehicles (one Explorer, one SHO) that both experienced hesitations that ended up being a bad injector in both cases. Adam has a 2013MY vehicle. The problem being that we could not replicate the issue in the time that the vehicle was here. Adam's vehicle also put down sufficient if not above sufficient numbers for a 93 tune on an SHO. We maintain that in our professional opinion that the issue is with the vehicle itself and not the tune.
I accept the above but Andy said the plan was to check each cylinder with a camera and force the in-tank fuel pump "on" which would show if there was indeed any leaky injectors.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:47:49 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:47:49 PM
Yes, and I agree. But do you have diagnostic aids to do a deep dive, like Ford IDS does, without tearing things apart? As users we have access to a few pids, but obviously as a tuner you have a plethora of options to choose from. I don't know if even a cylinder power balance test or ignition waveform analysis would be all that's needed. Some ripples that are inconsequential at lower throttle input but significant at WOT. Could it be an emissions issue? Possibly crud being sucked in volume from the intercooler?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:29:16 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:29:16 PM
So LMS failed in not checking the injectors but I can get past that. New direction of topic, how shall I test said injectors? I have great fuel mileage. The only thing that kind of popped in my head was my dad complained that my exhaust smelled like fuel after flooring it from a dig when he was driving behind me. I assume this is normal in a tuned turbo car and keeping a .73 afr at WOT.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 06:39:09 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 06:39:09 PM
Hmmmm... curious... and maybe LMS can correct me if I am wrong... BUT if you had a leaky injector wouldn't your wide band O2's be reading stupid rich?
And there is a company that can test them, let me find the link, but you would need to remove them from the car and mail them to them... I think they are based in Canada IIRC...
And there is a company that can test them, let me find the link, but you would need to remove them from the car and mail them to them... I think they are based in Canada IIRC...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
You would have to get Ford or Ford-level equipment to test the injectors directly, very expensive on your own. An indirect way is the balance test, and ignition waveform. Basically, we want to prove that the problem exists in the engine and not outside or vice versa. If the balance test fails at high rpm, then you can look at the graphs to identify the miscreant cylinder(s).
A sticking injector might be an issue, given that flooring from a dig outputs a fuel smell. How intense was it? WOT IS going to run richer, so a mild smell would be expected because you cannot make that smooth transition at the drop of a dime. There's always a small window of inefficiency. So how bad the smell is will tell you whether that is indeed an issue to be researched.
Now, looking back, you have a new engine in there right? Long block new injectors new everything except manifolds?
A sticking injector might be an issue, given that flooring from a dig outputs a fuel smell. How intense was it? WOT IS going to run richer, so a mild smell would be expected because you cannot make that smooth transition at the drop of a dime. There's always a small window of inefficiency. So how bad the smell is will tell you whether that is indeed an issue to be researched.
Now, looking back, you have a new engine in there right? Long block new injectors new everything except manifolds?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 06:41:45 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 06:41:45 PM
https://www.injectorrx.com/direct-injection-fuel-injector-cleaning/
Might be worth looking into, and my mistake... they are in the Great State of Texas...
Might be worth looking into, and my mistake... they are in the Great State of Texas...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:46:48 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:46:48 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
You would have to get Ford or Ford-level equipment to test the injectors directly, very expensive on your own. An indirect way is the balance test, and ignition waveform. Basically, we want to prove that the problem exists in the engine and not outside or vice versa. If the balance test fails at high rpm, then you can look at the graphs to identify the miscreant cylinder(s).
A sticking injector might be an issue, given that flooring from a dig outputs a fuel smell. How intense was it? WOT IS going to run richer, so a mild smell would be expected because you cannot make that smooth transition at the drop of a dime. There's always a small window of inefficiency. So how bad the smell is will tell you whether that is indeed an issue to be researched.
Now, looking back, you have a new engine in there right? Long block new injectors new everything except manifolds?
It is a new long block, I am not sure if injectors would be included.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:48:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
We have offered to have the customer bring the vehicle to us for a diagnostic test. At this point we are still believing this to be a mechanical issue but cannot confirm until we can go hands on with the vehicle. As it has been stated above, this is a rare instance, we have many of these vehicles out there without this issue with the same tunes. Both us and the customer are quite baffled by the instance but we are working diligently to not only pinpoint the issue but solve it as well.
LMS has said that they would solve it. I will drive my rear over there again if that is what has to happen.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
Post by: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
If it came with the intake installed, the injectors are "new" also.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:52:00 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 06:52:00 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:50:20 PMI didn't actually get to see it in the crate.
If it came with the intake installed, the injectors are "new" also.
Just looking at it, looks older than the very shiney valve covers.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 12, 2017, 07:33:59 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 12, 2017, 07:33:59 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Alright....
A different tune was written by a different tuner that tuned around the issue.
Although I agree with LMS that the issue lies with the vehicle i wanted to be a bit more specific on how i improved the fuel pressure because the way its sounds it comes accross as a type of "hack" or a manipulative method to force a result.
I returned 2 throttle pedal scalars to STOCK values...the stock calibration uses throttle control super aggressive to control load spikes...its not what I do normally thats why, along with LMS, I say its a hardwared problem ...that method is usually not needed
Control boost spikes, control fuel pressure...but usually using throttle control for the purpose of boost control makes less power and gives less feel
So basically im in agreement with LMS i just dont know if id call stock values "tuning around " the issue
The fuel system in this car does not handle boost spikes as well as other SHO's
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 07:37:18 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 07:37:18 PM
Does that substantially effect lower output or anything very noticeable?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 08:10:59 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 08:10:59 PM
My point is I could care less about 10 horses if LMS can play with the above mentioned settings, and my car keep good fuel pressure. just want to be done with this whole thing lol. If the car has had the same hesitation for 30k miles , it won't change in the next 30k.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 12, 2017, 09:10:30 PM
Post by: ZSHO on April 12, 2017, 09:10:30 PM
IIRC a faulty injector cannot be diagnosed with software and they usually install a boroscope by putting it inside the engine and cranking the car over.
The faulty injectors tend to leak even when not firing FYI. Z
I guess pin pointing this issue is like finding a needle in a hay stack.
The faulty injectors tend to leak even when not firing FYI. Z
I guess pin pointing this issue is like finding a needle in a hay stack.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 12, 2017, 09:14:36 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 12, 2017, 09:14:36 PM
I dont remember his fuel trims being out of whack...if an injector was leaking or dumping fuel the stft would pull fuel
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 12, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
I'm disappointed LMS didn't do any fuel system tests, they couldn't get the hesitation to occur, but on a 3rd gear pull, I also can't get the hesitation to occur, it is always on a WOT downshift. Also LMS should have been focusing on fuel pressure which is always off spec and not an intermittent hesitation. I got the short straw because Andy was on vacation.
Sorry for the rant. I thought the LMS visit would be more fruitful. We probably will never get to the bottom of my issue, probably not worth anymore time. I emailed LMS asking them to modify my tune to match AJPs method.
Sorry for the rant. I thought the LMS visit would be more fruitful. We probably will never get to the bottom of my issue, probably not worth anymore time. I emailed LMS asking them to modify my tune to match AJPs method.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 13, 2017, 06:11:58 AM
Post by: SHOdded on April 13, 2017, 06:11:58 AM
Sometimes things will fall between the cracks. Never fun being on the receiving end of it tho :(
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on April 13, 2017, 09:52:41 AM
Post by: derfdog15 on April 13, 2017, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 12, 2017, 06:41:45 PM
https://www.injectorrx.com/direct-injection-fuel-injector-cleaning/ (https://www.injectorrx.com/direct-injection-fuel-injector-cleaning/)
Might be worth looking into, and my mistake... they are in the GreatStateCountry of Texas...
FTFY.
OP, I would suggest testing the injectors OR doing an oil analysis. If there is a leaky injector, you would likely have more fuel in the oil than you should. Just a though, as an oil analysis may be cheaper/easier to get your hands on.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 10:57:50 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 10:57:50 AM
I'm just going to drive it for now and monitor. As log as LMS can adjust the tune "pedal scalers", I will just wait until something fails to where is actually fails not this it 92.67% good but that 7 & 1/3% is making you hate the car and the tuner lol.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 10:59:19 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 10:59:19 AM
Maybe time for a trade in?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:06:58 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:06:58 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 10:59:19 AMI am forcing myself to hold off for money "saving" reasons and keep the car for two more years. If everything is good, I'll get something more engineered to handle power, Hellcat, ctsv, gtr, z06 come to mind.
Maybe time for a trade in?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 13, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
Post by: ZSHO on April 13, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
FWIW I'm hoping the personal invite is still in effect from LMS even if its for a long term period. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:35:46 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:35:46 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on April 13, 2017, 11:30:30 AMI'm sure they would come through, making them guess is also no fair in a sense, it would be much more efficient if another problem arose or something gets worse. I could also wait for a pump but $1500 is alot to solve an issue that should work on the stock pump and no power gain since I do no plan on upgrading turbos etc.
FWIW I'm hoping the personal invite is still in effect from LMS even if its for a long term period. Z
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 11:41:51 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 11:41:51 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:35:46 AMQuote from: ZSHO on April 13, 2017, 11:30:30 AMI'm sure they would come through, making them guess is also no fair in a sense, it would be much more efficient if another problem arose or something gets worse. I could also wait for a pump but $1500 is alot to solve an issue that should work on the stock pump and no power gain since I do no plan on upgrading turbos etc.
FWIW I'm hoping the personal invite is still in effect from LMS even if its for a long term period. Z
There should be power gain with the new pump... more fuel more air means more power... not to mention running without using the throttle to control boost spikes increases power under the curve... this is proven many times over on dynos...
Whether LMS will develop a tune that way is up in the air...
I for one am planning on purchasing that pump day 1.. which should come with an updated tune since LMS says the pump will not work on a stock tune...
Curious how far they can push this new pump on their tunes.. they tend to run conservative so it will be interesting...
Not sure if this pump will solve your issues... being as your current pump is fairly "new"....
Did you have this same problem before the motor replacement?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Yes same problem before motor replacement.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:09:27 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:09:27 PM
Waiting on a yes or no from LMS on adjusting the tune. I would be shocked if they were against the change as that's the only thing that has made my car happy over the last months of troubleshooting. Hopefully they send me new tunes quickly and I can post a log.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:16:45 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:16:45 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Yes same problem before motor replacement.
How sure are you that the HPFP is different? Its a $350 part that takes 5 minutes to swap over... reason being... if you have a weak spring in the HPFP then under load it would not perform well...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:18:36 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:18:36 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:16:45 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Yes same problem before motor replacement.
How sure are you that the HPFP is different? Its a $350 part that takes 5 minutes to swap over... reason being... if you have a weak spring in the HPFP then under load it would not perform well...
Yes sir, it's date stamped
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
My spare one...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/d1a6a1faa64c1892a8d388eda1888d96.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/d1a6a1faa64c1892a8d388eda1888d96.jpg)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:53:46 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 13, 2017, 02:53:46 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 13, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
My spare one...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/d1a6a1faa64c1892a8d388eda1888d96.jpg)
yup 9-6-2009
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
Flashed the 91 octane LMS tune before my way to work today and couldn't get it under 1800 PSI. Tried all the normal procedures. Was monitoring with torque app. No hesitation. I have been contemplating how much more time I want to invest in this issue and since I have a borescope, I should be able to check for leaky injectors if LMS or anyone could provide a how-to I know what to look for and how to make the fuel pump turn on or if I have to crank the engine etc. If those check out, I can replace the fuel line with a braided variant for something around $200?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 11:58:19 AM
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 11:58:19 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 11:31:58 AMI will see what i can dig up for ya but need to give me some time. Z
Flashed the 91 octane LMS tune before my way to work today and couldn't get it under 1800 PSI. Tried all the normal procedures. Was monitoring with torque app. No hesitation. I have been contemplating how much more time I want to invest in this issue and since I have a borescope, I should be able to check for leaky injectors if LMS or anyone could provide a how-to I know what to look for and how to make the fuel pump turn on or if I have to crank the engine etc. If those check out, I can replace the fuel line with a braided variant for something around $200?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 14, 2017, 12:10:36 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 14, 2017, 12:10:36 PM
My guess is the warmer ambient temps outside are the difference.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 01:00:13 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 01:00:13 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 14, 2017, 12:10:36 PMI've logged in 50s before and it's been worse.
My guess is the warmer ambient temps outside are the difference.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
There is unfortunately nothing in the Ford WSM on how to exactly perform this procedure or anything linked directly to this procedure. :(
The only thing IIRC is to remove the spark plugs and then inserting the Boroscope inside the spark plug wells ,then pressurizing the injectors by turning the key on,while at the same time looking for a drip into the cylinder,side note do not crank the engine while Boroscope is inside the cylinder.
The other option is to have it Diagnosed with IDS Software to perform an injector Flow Test.
Hopefully LMS or others will have a broader perspective on exact detailed instructions. Z
The only thing IIRC is to remove the spark plugs and then inserting the Boroscope inside the spark plug wells ,then pressurizing the injectors by turning the key on,while at the same time looking for a drip into the cylinder,side note do not crank the engine while Boroscope is inside the cylinder.
The other option is to have it Diagnosed with IDS Software to perform an injector Flow Test.
Hopefully LMS or others will have a broader perspective on exact detailed instructions. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 11:25:11 PM
Post by: polskifacet on April 14, 2017, 11:25:11 PM
Did the procedure Z has stated and I could not see any type of leaking.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 15, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 15, 2017, 12:30:18 AM
Actually spent more time in each cylinder than the videos. The rear 3 cylinders seemed to be more shiny than the front 3.
http://youtu.be/oK-MaFpwz7Q (http://youtu.be/oK-MaFpwz7Q)
http://youtu.be/6WWp2g3lqNo (http://youtu.be/6WWp2g3lqNo)
http://youtu.be/MTl3ov-rDPc (http://youtu.be/MTl3ov-rDPc)
http://youtu.be/ol9PTWEoOEA (http://youtu.be/ol9PTWEoOEA)
http://youtu.be/XaiJvZv1myI (http://youtu.be/XaiJvZv1myI)
http://youtu.be/KoIwCQndRKE (http://youtu.be/KoIwCQndRKE)
http://youtu.be/4jEbYBXFwds (http://youtu.be/4jEbYBXFwds)
http://youtu.be/oK-MaFpwz7Q (http://youtu.be/oK-MaFpwz7Q)
http://youtu.be/6WWp2g3lqNo (http://youtu.be/6WWp2g3lqNo)
http://youtu.be/MTl3ov-rDPc (http://youtu.be/MTl3ov-rDPc)
http://youtu.be/ol9PTWEoOEA (http://youtu.be/ol9PTWEoOEA)
http://youtu.be/XaiJvZv1myI (http://youtu.be/XaiJvZv1myI)
http://youtu.be/KoIwCQndRKE (http://youtu.be/KoIwCQndRKE)
http://youtu.be/4jEbYBXFwds (http://youtu.be/4jEbYBXFwds)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on April 15, 2017, 07:53:05 AM
Post by: ZSHO on April 15, 2017, 07:53:05 AM
Glad everything checked out accordingly i guess.
Thats pure Commitment at its finest.
IMO would focus on the rear of the car where you found those wires cut!!!. Z
"HOW TO Section" anyone!!!. Z
Thats pure Commitment at its finest.
IMO would focus on the rear of the car where you found those wires cut!!!. Z
"HOW TO Section" anyone!!!. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on April 15, 2017, 08:55:03 AM
Post by: polskifacet on April 15, 2017, 08:55:03 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on April 15, 2017, 07:53:05 AMI remember how that wire got cut, my exhaust guy was using a sawzall and it slipped. I checked the harness there closely and it only carries bumper related stuff. Next plan of attack is the fuel line. If anyone has insight on the type of fittings required etc that info would be great. I'll be shooting for a 6an braided line. Should be fairly straightforward except for incorporating the fuel pressure sensor which will probably require dropping the tank.
Glad everything checked out accordingly i guess.
Thats pure Commitment at its finest.
IMO would focus on the rear of the car where you found those wires cut!!!. Z
"HOW TO Section" anyone!!!. Z
Note: will give you guys a break for the next two weeks, going back to the motherland to visit family.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on April 15, 2017, 10:30:47 AM
Post by: SHOdded on April 15, 2017, 10:30:47 AM
Come back refreshed, and enjoy time with the family.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PM
Post by: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMIn on a dmjk1abQuote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 15, 2017, 07:55:12 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 15, 2017, 07:55:12 PM
Quote from: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMIn on a dmjk1abQuote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really?!?!?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 01, 2017, 10:11:55 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 01, 2017, 10:11:55 AM
Hey Guys,
Got back from my trip. Gave LMS a shout and got some crummy news. No one over there has touched my issue. No update or course of action.
Edit: Left Andy a VM I'm sure he knows more but it takes 48 hours to hear from him.
Got back from my trip. Gave LMS a shout and got some crummy news. No one over there has touched my issue. No update or course of action.
Edit: Left Andy a VM I'm sure he knows more but it takes 48 hours to hear from him.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on May 01, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
Post by: SHOdded on May 01, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
well, time to pursue the issue :) I am sure they have a million things distracting them, so they need to be poked regularly!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 03, 2017, 04:41:20 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 03, 2017, 04:41:20 PM
Waiting on Andy to call me back should be today honoring his 48 hour call return policy. Also left Anthony an voicemail, figured I give Ethan a break, I'm sure he hates me by now lol.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 03, 2017, 05:03:11 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 03, 2017, 05:03:11 PM
Wanted to post a screenshot but didnt have time....i have a car that im tuning that has the same strategy as yours..fuel pressure is fine with no special changes and am doing what i always do.
So thats what makes me say its hardware
So thats what makes me say its hardware
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 05:23:13 PM
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 05:23:13 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on April 15, 2017, 07:55:12 PMQuote from: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMIn on a dmjk1abQuote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really?!?!?
SCT had never even heard of this STRATEGY before I called them and send them pics of the SCT tuner .. I am currently running DMJKBLA .. the previous OEM firmware was spastic as hell. if i put my foot on the gas in park.. just a tiny bit it would idle up to 1000rpm .. then choke itself out.. drop under 400, sputter, recover... then do it all over again about every 50-60 seconds on the nose.
AJP had me update prior to tuning and it no longer does that ..
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20f2eyc.jpg)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 03, 2017, 05:24:58 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 03, 2017, 05:24:58 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 05:23:13 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 15, 2017, 07:55:12 PMQuote from: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMIn on a dmjk1abQuote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really?!?!?
SCT had never even heard of this STRATEGY before I called them and send them pics of the SCT tuner .. I am currently running DMJKBLA .. the previous OEM firmware was spastic as hell. if i put my foot on the gas in park.. just a tiny bit it would idle up to 1000rpm .. then choke itself out.. drop under 400, sputter, recover... then do it all over again about every 50-60 seconds on the nose.
AJP had me update prior to tuning and it no longer does that ..
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20f2eyc.jpg)
SCT is full of crap... I have the same strategy..... and have called them for support...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 03, 2017, 05:46:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 03, 2017, 05:46:50 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 03, 2017, 05:03:11 PMI know man but I have done everything that LMS has suggested and see no clear sign of anything being wrong. Anything failing would continue to fail, get worse and I would see a change. It is completely static.
Wanted to post a screenshot but didnt have time....i have a car that im tuning that has the same strategy as yours..fuel pressure is fine with no special changes and am doing what i always do.
So thats what makes me say its hardware
I'm thinking about putting in an aftermarket fuel line but would need community support on the correct fittings and retrofitting the fuel pressure sensor near the tank.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 06:13:04 PM
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 06:13:04 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 03, 2017, 05:24:58 PMQuote from: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 05:23:13 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 15, 2017, 07:55:12 PMQuote from: BoostedSho2010 on April 15, 2017, 06:50:29 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 05:15:43 PMIn on a dmjk1abQuote from: lamrith on April 11, 2017, 04:22:55 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on April 11, 2017, 03:22:08 PMMind if I ask what strategy you have now, and how/what did you tell the Dealer to get them to do the update for you?Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 11, 2017, 12:06:39 PMQuote from: polskifacet on April 11, 2017, 11:52:12 AMMine does that goofy idle drop as well.
I have been driving the car on the stock tune for the second day and it feels healthier. Throughout the RPM band its obviously slower but it has like a harmony to it, I can feel there is no monkey business going on with it even though from the logs, you can see its heavily closing the throttle.
There was also sometimes a drop in rpm on the LMS tune when i would be coming to a complete stop which would cause a bit of a vibration (rpm dropped) and the rpm would then jump a bit past idle and calm down to a regular steady idle. I can't reproduce that on the stock tune.
Mine used too until I had my strategy updated... no longer does it do that.
I am on KHDK4, and one tuner had mentioned it might be nice to make sure I am on the latest strategy. When I asked the dealer they pushed back saying no reason to do it.
I know mine idles low and bounces around a bit at idle.
The original strategy for my 2010 SHO was DMJK1AB and then after several updates it is now at DMJKBLA. Livernois had to "build" a new tune for my strategy since I was the first one with that strategy to get a tune.
The first dealer I went too flat out refused to perform a strategy update. The dealership a bit further down the road didn't even question, they were more than happy to take my $100....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Really?!?!?
SCT had never even heard of this STRATEGY before I called them and send them pics of the SCT tuner .. I am currently running DMJKBLA .. the previous OEM firmware was spastic as hell. if i put my foot on the gas in park.. just a tiny bit it would idle up to 1000rpm .. then choke itself out.. drop under 400, sputter, recover... then do it all over again about every 50-60 seconds on the nose.
AJP had me update prior to tuning and it no longer does that ..
(http://i65.tinypic.com/20f2eyc.jpg)
SCT is full of crap... I have the same strategy..... and have called them for support...
Hmpf I have not had satisfactory interactions with SCT until I talked to Kevin.. he's the one who put my dmr ticket in. Everyone else has not been confidence inspiring..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on May 03, 2017, 07:04:29 PM
Post by: SHOdded on May 03, 2017, 07:04:29 PM
Dang all that quoting makes it hard to read on a mobile device LOL
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 10:00:43 PM
Post by: TopherSho on May 03, 2017, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on May 03, 2017, 07:04:29 PM
Dang all that quoting makes it hard to read on a mobile device LOL
No kidding. I need to get taptotalk installed.. but it freaks me out put my creds
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 10:02:03 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 10:02:03 AM
Another day with no info from LMS. I'm confused why they don't want to simply try and change the values AJP suggested so we can all be done with this. Maybe all of you guys need to start calling LMS and asking what the status is lol.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on May 04, 2017, 10:33:03 AM
Post by: ZSHO on May 04, 2017, 10:33:03 AM
Welcome back Adam!. How was your vacation?
I will try to contact them for ya but remember there are so many variables to consider in this situation. Z
I will try to contact them for ya but remember there are so many variables to consider in this situation. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 11:50:55 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on May 04, 2017, 10:33:03 AMIt has come down to tuning around my issue. I wish they could just do it as what has to be done has been stated by Brad. If LMS doesn't have confidence that they can find the issue with my car in a timely manner, what choice do I have?
Welcome back Adam!. How was your vacation?
I will try to contact them for ya but remember there are so many variables to consider in this situation. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on May 04, 2017, 03:30:03 PM
Post by: Livernois Motorsports on May 04, 2017, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 03, 2017, 04:41:20 PM
Waiting on Andy to call me back should be today honoring his 48 hour call return policy. Also left Anthony an voicemail, figured I give Ethan a break, I'm sure he hates me by now lol.
I don't hate you, I hate very few things in this world, bad piergoies and crappy fair food are about it. If I had the ability/knowledge to go in and change the scalars myself, I would.
I'm beyond the point of achieving anything and the fate lies solely in the hands of the tuning department and their choices or discretion's. I have been told before
that they would prefer to work around it in that way because they consider it cutting corners and would like to avoid that at all costs. With that said, I want to clarify that that is in no way a slight towards AJP as he was purely trying to see what he could to to correct the behavior of the vehicle with what was available. I apologize if the previous statement came across as seeming dickish, I did not intend for that to be the effect. ZSHO, I appreciate the continued diligence on your end but much like myself, Anthony is tapped out on what he has the ability to do, and the emails get rerouted to me, which in turn get listed over to tuning. Adam, I will respond to your most recent email shortly.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on May 04, 2017, 03:30:03 PMI appreciate your response. I also am not one to cut corners but in this case how much more time/money does Livernois and myself have to spend on this issue. My trip there was no way free for either side. I would love to fix it correctly but I have checked everything suggested and can't find any hint of anything wrong. If you guys want the car again and pledge to fix it then F it lets do it. Otherwise can we work around it at least for now because I can not use the tune so what did I buy it for?
I have been told before that they would prefer to work around it in that way because they consider it cutting corners and would like to avoid that at all costs.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 04, 2017, 04:57:15 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 04, 2017, 04:57:15 PM
I think people have the wrong idea on how i got the fuel pressure stabilized
I did not cut corners or do a "work around".
I simply used "stock" throttle settings that ford uses for throttle control for torque management.
Normally i try to make the throttle more closely follow pedal inputs to give the car more response. But that can allow for more boost spikes that in your case lowers fuel pressure that your fuel system can't seem to recover from for some unknown reason.
Polski im not sure why you were hell bent on using the lms tune when you already had a tune with fixed symptoms and probably a good deal on the used device you had but anyway...
All i had to do was use stock settings for:
Wop=wot start
Wop=wot end
Ask lms to give it a shot.
I did not cut corners or do a "work around".
I simply used "stock" throttle settings that ford uses for throttle control for torque management.
Normally i try to make the throttle more closely follow pedal inputs to give the car more response. But that can allow for more boost spikes that in your case lowers fuel pressure that your fuel system can't seem to recover from for some unknown reason.
Polski im not sure why you were hell bent on using the lms tune when you already had a tune with fixed symptoms and probably a good deal on the used device you had but anyway...
All i had to do was use stock settings for:
Wop=wot start
Wop=wot end
Ask lms to give it a shot.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 05:11:52 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 05:11:52 PM
I paid them for the tune. LMS said that they would fix this issue so I plan to hold them to it. I wish to find the root cause for my own sanity and the curiosity of the community.
Your tune is legit but using it means that I have given in. That's not how I work man, I take the harder path if that's what makes me learn more. I understand that LMS has to keep the doors open but if it were my company it would kill me to not know whats causing a car with my tune to run incorrectly. Maybe im expecting too much but I am going to keep pushing, lets see what happens.
Maybe if I'm in LMS's good graces, they will invite me over there again and we can test out one of their pumps on my car?!?!
Your tune is legit but using it means that I have given in. That's not how I work man, I take the harder path if that's what makes me learn more. I understand that LMS has to keep the doors open but if it were my company it would kill me to not know whats causing a car with my tune to run incorrectly. Maybe im expecting too much but I am going to keep pushing, lets see what happens.
Maybe if I'm in LMS's good graces, they will invite me over there again and we can test out one of their pumps on my car?!?!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 04, 2017, 05:28:41 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 04, 2017, 05:28:41 PM
I get it....but i think at this point because you are causing your own grief out of stubbornness...i think it puts livernois in a tough spot...they dont know whats wrong but i think its safe to say its not the tune thats the problem so its kind of out of their hands.
If i was them id just give your money back that way they arent in a position of not delivering on their word...the device doesnt cost them that much at their cost so its a drop in the bucket to let you keep it amd better publicity for them...i would just want to wash my hands of you...so if you get money back there is no foul
I feel your pain and really dont care if livernois looks good or bad but it seems they went above and beyond already but if your car is the problem to say that you are holding them to finding the solution just because you paid them seems like a tough stance..thats why id give your money back...businesses hate doing that but if one customer gets a free device out of 1000 whats the big deal and i think they woukd look better in the end for doing that
Just my take
If i was them id just give your money back that way they arent in a position of not delivering on their word...the device doesnt cost them that much at their cost so its a drop in the bucket to let you keep it amd better publicity for them...i would just want to wash my hands of you...so if you get money back there is no foul
I feel your pain and really dont care if livernois looks good or bad but it seems they went above and beyond already but if your car is the problem to say that you are holding them to finding the solution just because you paid them seems like a tough stance..thats why id give your money back...businesses hate doing that but if one customer gets a free device out of 1000 whats the big deal and i think they woukd look better in the end for doing that
Just my take
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
I'm only holding them to what they said in this thread. They could give me my money back yes but I assume (and hope) they have pride in what they are doing and don't want to just wash their hands of a challenge. They can also take your advice which is probably the quickest way to lower the tension so I can use their tune with piece of mind of having full fuel pressure. If they do adjust the tune for now and still want to diagnose my car, I will honor their request. As I have offered them before, I am willing to compensate a reasonable/agreed amount if that would expedite solving the issue. There are a few options from LMS's side and this thread would be completely different if there was a game plan. They could charge me a deposit and send me a pump that i could log with etc and see what happens, I am sure they have a beta model that I could borrow.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on May 04, 2017, 06:30:09 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 04, 2017, 06:30:09 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 05:48:18 PMThere comes a point however in every business transaction were either party can (AND SHOULD) come to the decision that further hassle for either party is not in either parties best interest. At that point if a vendor is willing to credit the customer in full, that is a sign of true professionalism and top notch customer service. No company can make every single customer happy, it is a statistical impossibility. But how they work with those problem situations shows a companies true values. Pride is why they have not just "patch worked" a tune together for you outside of their normal parameters. They have certain standards they have set for every tune and are unwilling to waver on that. Crediting a customer $ is a sign of pride in their work.
I'm only holding them to what they said in this thread. They could give me my money back yes but I assume (and hope) they have pride in what they are doing and don't want to just wash their hands of a challenge.
This has been a long duration of back and forth for both of you. And expensive for both parties. Any amount of profit LMS may have made normally on a tune is long gone. You as the consumer also have been inconvenienced significantly, how far should they push or pull you along before they step back and says it is best for both to part ways? To me, with the price of tunes on the market, you have both gone above and beyond to get it dialed in. If I were in your shoes I would throw in the towel on an LMS tune and go with what has already been shown to work.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 06:44:24 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 04, 2017, 06:44:24 PM
I will accept however LMS decides to proceed. I do hate being dragged along the most out of all of this.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 05, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 05, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
I slept on it and have no desire to give up. If LMS is willing to lend me (maybe leading up to me buying it) a pump to see how it reacts and if the retune for it exhibits the same issue.
I don't need this solved by LMS this second, if there is a plan then I'm good and will follow up based on that plan instead of calling every day etc.
I don't need this solved by LMS this second, if there is a plan then I'm good and will follow up based on that plan instead of calling every day etc.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 05, 2017, 09:11:22 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 05, 2017, 09:11:22 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 05, 2017, 11:59:59 AM
I slept on it and have no desire to give up. If LMS is willing to lend me (maybe leading up to me buying it) a pump to see how it reacts and if the retune for it exhibits the same issue.
I don't need this solved by LMS this second, if there is a plan then I'm good and will follow up based on that plan instead of calling every day etc.
Honestly, if your fuel pressure is as bad as your logs are showing, and your considering replacing your HPFP to verify.. I would be more than happy to send you my spare to test with... free of charge.. just ship it back...
Reason is, even if you get a bigger pump, that maybe just masking the actual issue.. if you are OK with that, then cool. If you want to try the bigger pump just to see if your pump is bad, like I said, shoot me your address and you will have one to test with. Takes 5 minutes to switch out...
I agree with AJP on this one.. you have two of the better tuners for the SHO saying there is some external issue... holding LMS to the fire not only puts them in a tough spot but makes you look bad as well... given the information already provided in this thread. Tough words to hear, but not sure what resolution you are looking for? LMS clearly cannot find it and AJP cannot figure out via tuning what exactly is going on... I mean... short of replacing the entire fuel system who knows? Rails, injectors, regulators, pumps, lines...
I love my SHO, however, if I was in your shoes, and wanted a tuneable car that wasn't going to cost me an arm and leg to get to a tuneable state... I might just cut bate and get something else.. maybe taking the hit on a trade in would be cheaper than replacing parts in hopes that you might stumble across a solution?
let me know about the pump...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 06:02:20 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 06:02:20 PM
I could buy 2 LMS pumps just in tax if I traded the car in.
LMS is up there with top shops for tuning and builds so that's why I'm pushing them, I'm sure Andy could sort this out but doesn't have the time when they have multiple $20,000+ builds in their shop as we speak. If a pump gets me what I want and maybe even a couple more horses then it's worth it to me to buy one and be done. Now however I don't know if that will solve my issue as I could buy a $1500 pump and my car have the same issue. I'm asking LMS to work with me, up to this point they have even though it takes a while, there is movement on the issue.
I have heard that LMS has gotten more bodies in management so my issue should get more attention. Guys I don't expect anything for free but I do expect working towards a solution.
I could say alot more personal things but that would take away from what this thread is about, stay tuned guys this is not finished.
LMS is up there with top shops for tuning and builds so that's why I'm pushing them, I'm sure Andy could sort this out but doesn't have the time when they have multiple $20,000+ builds in their shop as we speak. If a pump gets me what I want and maybe even a couple more horses then it's worth it to me to buy one and be done. Now however I don't know if that will solve my issue as I could buy a $1500 pump and my car have the same issue. I'm asking LMS to work with me, up to this point they have even though it takes a while, there is movement on the issue.
I have heard that LMS has gotten more bodies in management so my issue should get more attention. Guys I don't expect anything for free but I do expect working towards a solution.
I could say alot more personal things but that would take away from what this thread is about, stay tuned guys this is not finished.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 06:32:50 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 06:32:50 PM
The problem i see for livernois is their product is not the cause of the problem and you are looking for them to figure it out so i think your expectations are misguided.
Just like how shops will not run your car on a dyno that is not mechanically sound, i would never run a tune on a car that has issues
If the upgraded pump restores fuel pressure you need to understand that is a mask and in no way fixed the underlying problem
I feel like you will drag livernois through the mud because you have an unrelated issue with your car
Unfortunately for them, they may have mispoken to you in saying that they will see the problem through at a point in time when they werent aware of what the problem was
Just like how shops will not run your car on a dyno that is not mechanically sound, i would never run a tune on a car that has issues
If the upgraded pump restores fuel pressure you need to understand that is a mask and in no way fixed the underlying problem
I feel like you will drag livernois through the mud because you have an unrelated issue with your car
Unfortunately for them, they may have mispoken to you in saying that they will see the problem through at a point in time when they werent aware of what the problem was
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
They vowed to make it good more than once in this thread. They are on the hook for making the tune work with my vehicle. Since they now make a pump, I am tempted to push it in that direction if it's an easier fix than weeks of sitting at LMS. This is what this business does, there is no reason why they shouldn't try and find the problem. If John Doe walks in with a fuel pressure issue they would fix it right?
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 06, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 06, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
If John Doe walks in with a fuel pressure issue they would fix it right?
Probably not... would be my guess.... they don't sell fuel rails, HPFP, FPDM, or LPFP for our cars....
They are a performance shop, not a general maintenance shop or general repair shop... and I have no doubt that their hourly rate is that of a performance shop... so again... probably not...
Golden rule of tuning is... make sure your car is healthy and happy before pushing a tune.
Your car happened to behave normal without an issue and the added load of a tune brought forth an underlying issue.. that's not on LMS to fix...
As someone who cares about the SHO community, I wish you the best of luck.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 09:09:41 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 09:09:41 PM
I thought there was an assumption that your vehicle was not mechanically faulty
I would think if john doe walks into a performance speed shop they might fix it if the customer paid but it sounds like the more appropriate thing to do in that case would be for John doe to go to a repair or maintenance garage.
I think you dont like the idea that a tune cant fix a mechanical problem
You say you would think it would bug livernois that they cant figure out the problem...does it not bug you that unconventional measures have to be taken to mask a mechanical issue with your car?....you could honestly drive it knowing all is not well with your car but as long as you cant feel the symptoms anymore its all good?
Im just trying to give you a different perspective.
I guess this is where disclaimers come to be
Both parties here are screwed i fear...livernois committed themselves to perhaps something they should not have and you will continue to have a joyless driving experience to prove a point i guess
I would think if john doe walks into a performance speed shop they might fix it if the customer paid but it sounds like the more appropriate thing to do in that case would be for John doe to go to a repair or maintenance garage.
I think you dont like the idea that a tune cant fix a mechanical problem
You say you would think it would bug livernois that they cant figure out the problem...does it not bug you that unconventional measures have to be taken to mask a mechanical issue with your car?....you could honestly drive it knowing all is not well with your car but as long as you cant feel the symptoms anymore its all good?
Im just trying to give you a different perspective.
I guess this is where disclaimers come to be
Both parties here are screwed i fear...livernois committed themselves to perhaps something they should not have and you will continue to have a joyless driving experience to prove a point i guess
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 09:18:50 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 09:18:50 PM
Yes I wish to increase the performance of my fuel system. My car has been looked over by two ASE certified mechanics. Both have multiple 1000 hp vehicles including Fords. My car doesn't show any signs of not being mechanically perfect. LMS actually does deal with problems like mine I was there. My problem is I am having difficulty coordinating next steps and possibly a revisit.
Again I'm willing to pay, I would buy the pump today if it satisfies my expectations.
Again I'm willing to pay, I would buy the pump today if it satisfies my expectations.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 09:37:23 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 06, 2017, 09:37:23 PM
So just to be clear. It is your contention that nothing is wrong with the car?
Just throwing this out there but i wouldnt boast about passing the ase certification exam....its pretty basic and a slightly above average shadetree mechanic can pass....unfortunately its about the only standard out there
Just throwing this out there but i wouldnt boast about passing the ase certification exam....its pretty basic and a slightly above average shadetree mechanic can pass....unfortunately its about the only standard out there
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 10:01:04 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 06, 2017, 10:01:04 PM
We can argue over email as this is degrading the quality of this thread and misguiding it's direction.
There is nothing wrong with my vehicle as all values are in spec on the stock tune. If my fuel system isn't performing well with a tune I will rely on LMS a performance shop to increase the performance of my fuel system. As I said my problem is coordinating with LMS on how to move forward.
There is nothing wrong with my vehicle as all values are in spec on the stock tune. If my fuel system isn't performing well with a tune I will rely on LMS a performance shop to increase the performance of my fuel system. As I said my problem is coordinating with LMS on how to move forward.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 10:55:16 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 10:55:16 AM
What will having a higher performance fuel pump accomplish:
Having a larger fuel pump could "mask" the issue etc but if its allowing the car to keep full fuel pressure then case closed?
Larger HPFP can't suck more fuel out of the tank per se, if its a feed issue, I should have the same issue with a big pump?
Is LMS able to generate more power on stock turbos with the bigger pump? If so I would experience the same issue when getting closer to the limit of the pump if it was a ecu/signal issue?
Having a larger fuel pump could "mask" the issue etc but if its allowing the car to keep full fuel pressure then case closed?
Larger HPFP can't suck more fuel out of the tank per se, if its a feed issue, I should have the same issue with a big pump?
Is LMS able to generate more power on stock turbos with the bigger pump? If so I would experience the same issue when getting closer to the limit of the pump if it was a ecu/signal issue?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 03:27:14 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 10:55:16 AMSo what I have read it sounds like all of your individual physical parts have been tested and pass testing. If the pumps test fine and they tested that they can sustain flow AND pressure properly, That tells me your problem lays outside of the individual components and is in the system itself.
What will having a higher performance fuel pump accomplish:
Having a larger fuel pump could "mask" the issue etc but if its allowing the car to keep full fuel pressure then case closed?
Larger HPFP can't suck more fuel out of the tank per se, if its a feed issue, I should have the same issue with a big pump?
Is LMS able to generate more power on stock turbos with the bigger pump? If so I would experience the same issue when getting closer to the limit of the pump if it was a ecu/signal issue?
This may not be what you want to hear, but I think everyone here is genuinely just trying to help you out.
This is something I have had in my head the last week or two following along in this thread and been waiting to say pending the testing you were doing.
I think it would be interesting to see what the fuel pressure is coming out of the tank right at the tank and right before the HPFP, then also at the HPFP outlet and all the way at the last possible point at the rail. No idea how you would hook sensors up and monitor them during run/passes. Any notable drop between the pairs will tell you that you have a clog someplace between the gauges and could very easily explain your car not recovering FP easily when tuned. Your car may be just fine under low demand like when it is stock (this is a long thread, have you run a log with bone stock tune?), but once you exceed a certain demand (custom tune) then the car is asking for more fuel than can be supplied past the restriction. I work in hydraulics and this is troubleshooting 101 dealing with pressure/flow issues in a system. You look for the pressure drop, we see it all the time in mobile machines were something has caused a restriction in a line. Could be a kink, piece of debris, bad connector, you name it. A kink for example may restrict the flow of your fuel line 25%. Not an issue in stock trim as the car at WOT may only need 70% of max line flow. But with tune, you may need 90% of max fuel line flow to stay at pressure, but your line is only able to flow a max of 75% so you are short 15%. Static pressure test, all will look just fine, you have to check under max flow demand as well.
Having a larger (stronger) pump may mask your issue and get you off and running. But you would then again have issues trying to use the pump to its actual HP capacity at a later time. While I can appreciate that it is a "fix", it is just not the right way to fix an issue like you are having. It is like if someone had installed ballast in your car before you got it. You get it and try 1/4mile and it is running high 14 second, when everything on paper says it should be mid 13's. You could just throw more HP at it with a tune and get yourself back to where it should have been stock, or look around and realize that it has extra weight and get it removed. Then when you do the tune you are right with everyone else rather than having spent extra $ to be where everyone else started from... You will also be working that stronger pump harder all the time, as it will be pushing higher pressure to overcome that flow restriction.
If your current HPFP is being starved then it would not be able to keep pressure. There could be a restriction between the low pressure intank pump and the high pressure. That is what I am thinking at least, and gauges as mentioned would show that. If the pump in the tank is putting out say 80psi at idle, but the inlet of the high pressure only sees 60, then you have an issue. If that differential gets bigger as you rev the engine, again, it points to an issue, the high pressure is asking for more than the low pressure can feed it whether because the low pres pump is bad or the line restricted..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:20:18 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:20:18 PM
Up to this point, no one has been able to provide what volume I should be getting. There is no schrader valve so some assortment of fuel connectors is required to hook up a gauge inline. LMS supposedly hooked up a fuel pressure gauge inline and ran it on the dyno. If they didn't see pressure drop 8 inches before the HPFP while doing the pull, how could there not be proper volume?
LMS would have to chime in because I haven't received any paperwork on what exactly they did. The were also supposed to check a plug or two for condition, if its soaked in fuel etc.
LMS would have to chime in because I haven't received any paperwork on what exactly they did. The were also supposed to check a plug or two for condition, if its soaked in fuel etc.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 04:37:58 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 04:37:58 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:20:18 PMYeah getting Volume data will probably be tough, but the pressure is a factor of that. Yes getting gauges/sensors installed would for sure not be a simple thing by any means. I have never heard of someone hooking up gauges like I am talking about on a modern fuel system, totally out of the norm for a fuel system to need something like that. Not something I would even consider normally, but your problem seems to defy all attempts to correct it, so drastic measures time.... LMS probably hooked it up at the rail as a way to verify what the sensor was reading properly? Pure guesswork on my part, and they can correct me if I am wrong and they choose to, but that is normally what a shop would do to troubleshoot an issue. This is purely from my background in hydraulic systems and hydraulic fluid flow.
Up to this point, no one has been able to provide what volume I should be getting. There is no schrader valve so some assortment of fuel connectors is required to hook up a gauge inline. LMS supposedly hooked up a fuel pressure gauge inline and ran it on the dyno. If they didn't see pressure drop 8 inches before the HPFP while doing the pull, how could there not be proper volume?
There will of course be some pressure drop when demand increases at the pump, but the drop should be across the line meaning the drop is also seen at the in-tank pump by the same amount. At Idle the in-tank pump could be pushing 80psi out and the high pressure sees 80psi, but under WOT the in-tank may be showing 80psi and then the high pressure only seeing 60 of it if that makes sense, that would indicate there is a restriction between the in tank pump and the high pressure one on your valve cover. Not an issue at idle, but is an issue when demand is higher.
FYI - any numbers I am posting are purely fictitious to illustrate a point and in no way what you should actually look for as a target for a healthy system...
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:46:20 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:46:20 PM
There is a schrader valve for the Low Pressure Fuel System at the top passenger rear of the engine bay... I have used it to diagnose fuel pressure concerns before.
I have no clue to how pressure test the direct injection pump...I remember seeing the sensor for it located on one of the rails... right side I believe.. it was an exploded out parts view... you would need to remove the intake manifold to get to it...
I have no clue to how pressure test the direct injection pump...I remember seeing the sensor for it located on one of the rails... right side I believe.. it was an exploded out parts view... you would need to remove the intake manifold to get to it...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 04:49:02 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 04:49:02 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:46:20 PMYeah, based on what I am seeing logs one would need a 3 or 4k PSI fuel rated gauge to put on the fuel rail or splice inline with fittings of some sort. Def not a simple thing to do, or for the feint of hearth/shadetree mechanic.
There is a schrader valve for the Low Pressure Fuel System at the top passenger rear of the engine bay... I have used it to diagnose fuel pressure concerns before.
I have no clue to how pressure test the direct injection pump...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:52:18 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:52:18 PM
Looking at a fuel pressure gauge while doing a WOT pull as they supposedly did would show exactly what you are talking about. I am also fairly certain that the pipe off the HPFP to rail is new as it is technically not reusable(with new long block). Again I unfortunately don't have all the facts from my visit to LMS and can't seem to get them at least from the people I talk to.
@StealBlueSho I will check again but my car does't appear to have the test port from what i remember when I went over the line to look for any kinks/damage.
@lamrith I watched a good Delphi video on DI testing and they didn't recommend testing the high pressure side other then relying on the sensor data.
@StealBlueSho I will check again but my car does't appear to have the test port from what i remember when I went over the line to look for any kinks/damage.
@lamrith I watched a good Delphi video on DI testing and they didn't recommend testing the high pressure side other then relying on the sensor data.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 04:49:02 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:46:20 PMYeah, based on what I am seeing logs one would need a 3 or 4k PSI fuel rated gauge to put on the fuel rail or splice inline with fittings of some sort. Def not a simple thing to do, or for the feint of hearth/shadetree mechanic.
There is a schrader valve for the Low Pressure Fuel System at the top passenger rear of the engine bay... I have used it to diagnose fuel pressure concerns before.
I have no clue to how pressure test the direct injection pump...
You would be correct. You can easily see the the fuel lines from the schrader valve to the HPFP. So from a basic "is there a kink" perspective that would be easy peasy....
The HPFP does contain a microfilter.... so if there was junk in the lines for some reason that could be an issue... I know he had the issue before and after the motor replacement so not sure if it applies.....
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/330a38dc0e4335a1e962afcaa1a84387.jpg)
Freshly taken...
Freshly taken...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/330a38dc0e4335a1e962afcaa1a84387.jpg)
Freshly taken...
Yea man my car doesn't have that for sure. Maybe it's something they changed in 2013 +.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:57:13 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on May 08, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/330a38dc0e4335a1e962afcaa1a84387.jpg)
Freshly taken...
Yea man my car doesn't have that for sure. Maybe it's something they changed in 2013 +.
Wow... then I dunno?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 05:09:28 PM
Post by: lamrith on May 08, 2017, 05:09:28 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 08, 2017, 04:52:18 PMYes what I am describing is def far outside the norm. Call it a last resort before throwing a match on it, or trading it in.. Normally when a car cannot maintain FP it will be pump or fuel filter, or even stuck open injector 99.99999% of the time. But as you have mentioned, all of those items have been addressed/replaced, so I am literally throwing educated guess/ideas out to try.
Looking at a fuel pressure gauge while doing a WOT pull as they supposedly did would show exactly what you are talking about. I am also fairly certain that the pipe off the HPFP to rail is new as it is technically not reusable(with new long block). Again I unfortunately don't have all the facts from my visit to LMS and can't seem to get them at least from the people I talk to.
@StealBlueSho I will check again but my car does't appear to have the test port from what i remember when I went over the line to look for any kinks/damage.
@lamrith I watched a good Delphi video on DI testing and they didn't recommend testing the high pressure side other then relying on the sensor data.
Based on what Steal just said, the dual gauges on high pressure side would not make sense now either given the short and visible length of that system. It is dropping pressure which should mean one of two things; either it is not good, or the intank pump is not supplying it enough fuel and it is starving. SO I would see what can be done to log/verify pressure before the high pressure pump.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 05:40:16 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 05:40:16 PM
Hey Guys,
I'm on the list for the next batch of pumps. I'm going into this without full confidence but feel like I'm too far in to back out. Of course there is no guarantee that the pump will magically fix the issue. I'm hoping that even if the issue exists, I'll never reach the point where the LMS pump would exhibit the issue. LMS also said that if the pump doesn't fix the issue, they would need the car for an extended period and fix the issue for an additional charge. I'm pretty gung hoe about buying the pump but would like your guys opinion.
I'm on the list for the next batch of pumps. I'm going into this without full confidence but feel like I'm too far in to back out. Of course there is no guarantee that the pump will magically fix the issue. I'm hoping that even if the issue exists, I'll never reach the point where the LMS pump would exhibit the issue. LMS also said that if the pump doesn't fix the issue, they would need the car for an extended period and fix the issue for an additional charge. I'm pretty gung hoe about buying the pump but would like your guys opinion.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 06:03:51 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 06:03:51 PM
They give you a time frame? I am supposed to get a call as well when they are available..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:44:47 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 06:03:51 PMtold me a few weeks
They give you a time frame? I am supposed to get a call as well when they are available..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 08:50:08 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 08:50:08 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:44:47 PMQuote from: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 06:03:51 PMtold me a few weeks
They give you a time frame? I am supposed to get a call as well when they are available..
Ha! I was told 2 weeks 3 weeks ago... lol don't hold your breath..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
yea that was the first batch, im talking about the second lol
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 08:59:11 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 11, 2017, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 11, 2017, 08:56:22 PM
yea that was the first batch, im talking about the second lol
Interesting... I would have figured someone on this forum would have gotten one if there was a batch available...
I asked Anthony yesterday and he told me he was unaware of any HPFP being sold yet for the SHO... I have the email... lol
Oh well...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 16, 2017, 10:26:26 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 16, 2017, 10:26:26 AM
Just an observation, using the Torque app, with it being 75 degrees with some humidity it doesn't go below 1950 psi. I would have to log to get exact numbers but there is no hesitation etc.
Could any of you guys gauge how much fuel is missing? Is it 10% or is it 40%? That could help be make a better educated guess on the pump purchase.
Could any of you guys gauge how much fuel is missing? Is it 10% or is it 40%? That could help be make a better educated guess on the pump purchase.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 12:17:07 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 12:17:07 AM
Logged what I felt, seems to be true. fuel pressure is on par with commanded. This is the 93 octane tune.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on May 17, 2017, 12:25:50 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on May 17, 2017, 12:25:50 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 16, 2017, 10:26:26 AM
Just an observation, using the Torque app, with it being 75 degrees with some humidity it doesn't go below 1950 psi. I would have to log to get exact numbers but there is no hesitation etc.
Could any of you guys gauge how much fuel is missing? Is it 10% or is it 40%? That could help be make a better educated guess on the pump purchase.
What do you mean how much fuel is missing?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
A guesstimate on how much more room the stock pump should have. I'm assuming that I'm on the bleeding edge right now.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
A guesstimate on how much more room the stock pump should have. I'm assuming that I'm on the bleeding edge right now.
Rule of thumb from the tuners I have worked with is 1500 psi is the lowest you want to go.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:16:14 AM
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:16:14 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 08:16:29 AMQuote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
A guesstimate on how much more room the stock pump should have. I'm assuming that I'm on the bleeding edge right now.
Rule of thumb from the tuners I have worked with is 1500 psi is the lowest you want to go.
for my education is that for sustained, or at all costs? I have seen mine dip into the 1400's on shift but had assumed that happens since there is reduced load and reduced rpm driving things.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Quote from: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:16:14 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 08:16:29 AMQuote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
A guesstimate on how much more room the stock pump should have. I'm assuming that I'm on the bleeding edge right now.
Rule of thumb from the tuners I have worked with is 1500 psi is the lowest you want to go.
for my education is that for sustained, or at all costs? I have seen mine dip into the 1400's on shift but had assumed that happens since there is reduced load and reduced rpm driving things.
I can just say from my experience is that Brad and Torrie were not happy with a sustained pressure of 1500 or less...
That being said... more of the issue is the dips after a shift around 4K RPMs... usually that's when a boost spike is evident...due to the increase in boost from the spike along with the drop is fuel pressure you are more prone for knock/heat issues....
I have never had a tune besides an E blend on a non-e tune that would not recover the fuel pressure...
I have had pressure as low as 800 psi while playing around... the ECU closes the throttle to prevent damage at that level...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:40:13 AM
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:40:13 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:38:35 AMQuote from: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:16:14 AMQuote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 08:16:29 AMQuote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
A guesstimate on how much more room the stock pump should have. I'm assuming that I'm on the bleeding edge right now.
Rule of thumb from the tuners I have worked with is 1500 psi is the lowest you want to go.
for my education is that for sustained, or at all costs? I have seen mine dip into the 1400's on shift but had assumed that happens since there is reduced load and reduced rpm driving things.
I can just say from my experience is that Brad and Torrie were not happy with a sustained pressure of 1500 or less...
That being said... more of the issue is the dips after a shift around 4K RPMs... usually that's when a boost spike is evident...due to the increase in boost from the spike along with the drop is fuel pressure you are more prone for knock/heat issues....
I have never had a tune besides an E blend on a non-e tune that would not recover the fuel pressure...
I have had pressure as low as 800 psi while playing around... the ECU closes the throttle to prevent damage at that level...
ok no worries for me then :) ty sir..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:41:55 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:41:55 AM
You don't want fuel pressure drops, even momentarily, below 1500 psi... but that's really up to your tuner and how comfortable he is with your car...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:46:57 AM
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 09:46:57 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 09:41:55 AM
You don't want fuel pressure drops, even momentarily, below 1500 psi... but that's really up to your tuner and how comfortable he is with your car...
RGR that, AJP has not made a concern of it so i called it good. but it is good to learn as much as i can.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Since my fuel pressure is fine at 75ish ambient,
what does that say about the fuel system? The answer I'm looking for is how far off am I from a model tuned sho? My thinking is if im within 10% of a model tuned sho then there is nothing broken its just lazy and I can confidently grab the LMS pump and get those gainz lol. IIRC something like 40 hp is a nice bump.
what does that say about the fuel system? The answer I'm looking for is how far off am I from a model tuned sho? My thinking is if im within 10% of a model tuned sho then there is nothing broken its just lazy and I can confidently grab the LMS pump and get those gainz lol. IIRC something like 40 hp is a nice bump.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:49:58 AM
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:49:58 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Since my fuel pressure is fine at 75ish ambient,
what does that say about the fuel system? The answer I'm looking for is how far off am I from a model tuned sho? My thinking is if im within 10% of a model tuned sho then there is nothing broken its just lazy and I can confidently grab the LMS pump and get those gainz lol. IIRC something like 40 hp is a nice bump.
wait ... is someone claiming a 40hp gain from a HPFP? As in your tuned to the hilt alreasdy, then get a new pump and gain 40 MORE hp?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
dont quote me but maybe stealblue said that it has similar gains to spraying meth? again I'm kinda guessing.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 10:52:54 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:49:58 AMQuote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Since my fuel pressure is fine at 75ish ambient,
what does that say about the fuel system? The answer I'm looking for is how far off am I from a model tuned sho? My thinking is if im within 10% of a model tuned sho then there is nothing broken its just lazy and I can confidently grab the LMS pump and get those gainz lol. IIRC something like 40 hp is a nice bump.
wait ... is someone claiming a 40hp gain from a HPFP? As in your tuned to the hilt alreasdy, then get a new pump and gain 40 MORE hp?
No, LMS has not released ANY information on the tuning of the new HPFP they are developing. They have said they will release information when the pump is available...
I have been on this like white on rice...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:55:29 AM
Post by: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:55:29 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 10:52:54 AMQuote from: TopherSho on May 17, 2017, 10:49:58 AMQuote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:47:07 AM
Since my fuel pressure is fine at 75ish ambient,
what does that say about the fuel system? The answer I'm looking for is how far off am I from a model tuned sho? My thinking is if im within 10% of a model tuned sho then there is nothing broken its just lazy and I can confidently grab the LMS pump and get those gainz lol. IIRC something like 40 hp is a nice bump.
wait ... is someone claiming a 40hp gain from a HPFP? As in your tuned to the hilt alreasdy, then get a new pump and gain 40 MORE hp?
No, LMS has not released ANY information on the tuning of the new HPFP they are developing. They have said they will release information when the pump is available...
I have been on this like white on rice...
rgr that..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:58:09 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:58:09 AM
I know for sure you can't run corn without further modifications. No info on what that would be. I'm sure they will try hard to give us a good bang for the buck as most of the community doesn't have meth + lms hpfp + rebuilt turbos etc.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 10:59:45 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 10:59:45 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
dont quote me but maybe stealblue said that it has similar gains to spraying meth? again I'm kinda guessing.
I have never made that claim. What I have said is that when I spoke to Dave at LMS about their Alky Meth Kit a couple weeks ago he mentioned it might be worth while to wait for the HPFP. He stated that the biggest advantage to their meth setup is offsetting the stock HPFPs limited ability to maintain fuel pressure after tuning.
The new HPFP is supposed to assist with that issue.
No tuning information or gains have been released from LMS or Mustang RTR about the new pumps coming out.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 11:00:57 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:58:09 AM
I know for sure you can't run corn without further modifications. No info on what that would be. I'm sure they will try hard to give us a good bang for the buck as most of the community doesn't have meth + lms hpfp + rebuilt turbos etc.
FoMoCo has a tune from AJP that can run E85 I believe..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 11:04:42 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 11:04:42 AM
Here is the thing right... if you really want to know, call LMS. I have called several times to talk to them about various setups and gear. Ethan, Anthony, Dave, and Matt are the guys I have spoken too and they have always been very upfront and informative. My guess is the more people that call, the more pressure for them to release stuff... aka... the sooner they can start getting a return on the dev costs for their stuff...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 01:48:44 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 01:48:44 PM
Seeing some pretty high boost spikes 17 psi which do get me down to around 1500 psi but it recovers pretty much instantly.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on May 17, 2017, 02:11:33 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on May 17, 2017, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 17, 2017, 11:00:57 AMYup. Trying some new fun stuff with e45 as well.Quote from: polskifacet on May 17, 2017, 10:58:09 AM
I know for sure you can't run corn without further modifications. No info on what that would be. I'm sure they will try hard to give us a good bang for the buck as most of the community doesn't have meth + lms hpfp + rebuilt turbos etc.
FoMoCo has a tune from AJP that can run E85 I believe..
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 21, 2017, 08:53:56 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 21, 2017, 08:53:56 PM
Still looking for how much fuel I'm "missing". If the rail fuel volume is maxed out right now @ 13 psi of boost and 80f ambient where am I compared to another SHO?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 21, 2017, 08:57:35 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on May 21, 2017, 08:57:35 PM
Welll... with LMS 4+X Race Tune I have 1900+ at the rail with ambients at freezing....
Dunno if that helps?
Dunno if that helps?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 21, 2017, 09:26:09 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 21, 2017, 09:26:09 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 21, 2017, 08:57:35 PM
Welll... with LMS 4+X Race Tune I have 1900+ at the rail with ambients at freezing....
Dunno if that helps?
Not sure how much more demanding the 4X tune is but seems to me like my car is somewhere under 15% off of yours. I think It's close enough not to worry about the pump not helping.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 11:27:37 AM
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 11:27:37 AM
Another observation - weather much cooler this week 55f but 90% humidity and I don't see the fuel pressure dropping, I can attach logs but I've gotten pretty good at feeling this out. Frustrating lol why can't it just break so I can actually fix something specific.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on May 24, 2017, 12:22:41 PM
Post by: SHOdded on May 24, 2017, 12:22:41 PM
Maybe you just need a new 3 bar MAP sensor LOL.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 12:26:12 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 12:26:12 PM
I also got a response from LMS. The firestorm pump gives no performance increase with my current mods, I would have to get meth or turbo upgrades etc. They of course say they can't tell me anything more without having my car there again. If they were to actually spend time on my vehicle, in two weeks I foresee the bill would easily get beyond $2000. Its a tough one guys, the solution is to probably run Brads tune when I see fuel pressure issues and either work more with Brad or run LMS in the summer.
The two avenues I have is to pull the injectors and send them out for testing and figuring out all the parts to change the feed line from the tank up.
I have reached the end of the road with this issue, it is what it is. Thanks for all the support.
The two avenues I have is to pull the injectors and send them out for testing and figuring out all the parts to change the feed line from the tank up.
I have reached the end of the road with this issue, it is what it is. Thanks for all the support.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 12:26:44 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on May 24, 2017, 12:22:41 PMTried that with LMS, 2bar same issue.
Maybe you just need a new 3 bar MAP sensor LOL.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on May 24, 2017, 12:54:22 PM
Post by: ZSHO on May 24, 2017, 12:54:22 PM
Its sometimes these intermittent issues that can be most frustrating to say the least.
FWIW here are a couple of Fuel system diagnosis/voltage drop test. Z
http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/CarterFuelSystemDiagnosis.pdf (http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/CarterFuelSystemDiagnosis.pdf)
http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/fuel_sys_diag_chart.pdf (http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/fuel_sys_diag_chart.pdf)
FWIW here are a couple of Fuel system diagnosis/voltage drop test. Z
http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/CarterFuelSystemDiagnosis.pdf (http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/CarterFuelSystemDiagnosis.pdf)
http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/fuel_sys_diag_chart.pdf (http://www.rockauto.com/genImages/26/fuel_sys_diag_chart.pdf)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 24, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on May 24, 2017, 12:54:22 PMI would't say its intermittent, the temp/humidity is simply less taxing on the fuel system now.
Its sometimes these intermittent issues that can be most frustrating to say the least.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on May 24, 2017, 09:00:06 PM
Post by: ZSHO on May 24, 2017, 09:00:06 PM
FWIW it does not hurt to check especially if you have a multi-meter and not quite sure it applies to your vehicle.
BCM 6554 –2013 Explorer Fuel Pump Inoperative Connector-C3053– Loose/damaged Female Terminal.
Sorry man just trying to help ya out. Z
PAGE 2
http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf (http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf)
BCM 6554 –2013 Explorer Fuel Pump Inoperative Connector-C3053– Loose/damaged Female Terminal.
Sorry man just trying to help ya out. Z
PAGE 2
http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf (http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on May 25, 2017, 12:26:19 PM
Post by: polskifacet on May 25, 2017, 12:26:19 PM
I'm going to split fuel system troubleshooting into the fuel line thread I made. Too many people and history on this one.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:09:51 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:09:51 AM
Ok guys the separate fuel system diagnosis thread was a success in my opinion. I thoroughly tested every aspect of the fuel system and see no abnormality. I would say its safe to check the fuel system off the list of possibilities.
I already sent LMS an email to see if they are willing to soften up the tune a bit. I am not blaming LMS's tune per-say, but their tune is a tad too aggressive for my car. Like I have said many times over I will sacrifice performance for reliability/efficiency. Lets see what they say.
I already sent LMS an email to see if they are willing to soften up the tune a bit. I am not blaming LMS's tune per-say, but their tune is a tad too aggressive for my car. Like I have said many times over I will sacrifice performance for reliability/efficiency. Lets see what they say.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 11:10:41 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 11:10:41 AM
So the HPFP made no difference?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:26:11 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 11:10:41 AMNot 1 my friend, only thing I noticed is your pump was made in Germany and mine is USA. Identical performance.
So the HPFP made no difference?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on June 08, 2017, 11:28:01 AM
Post by: ZSHO on June 08, 2017, 11:28:01 AM
I know you have a New Long Block and all but based from my experience recently found out that both my front wide band 02 sensors were not responding correctly while having a Dyno-Tune at roughly 52K and might be worth while to have them checked out based on your current mileage.
FWIW both front 02 sensors DID-NOT emit any codes. Z
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.msg120168/topicseen.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.msg120168/topicseen.html)
FWIW both front 02 sensors DID-NOT emit any codes. Z
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.msg120168/topicseen.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.msg120168/topicseen.html)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
How was this discovered? o2 sensors should show the same issues stock or tuned.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 11:30:46 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 11:30:46 AM
I just cleaned the sh!t out of mine with a ton of meth while I was priming the pump trying to get pressure.... should be good to go for a bit longer!!! :-P
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 04:38:21 PM
I was talking to a buddy and he mentioned boost ramping. After telling him the full story he was confused why LMS won't just adjust the tune. There are many tricks/techniques such as pulling timing and massaging fuel to calm the turbos down a bit. He also mentioned other things like a larger intercooler which will slow down the spike (more high side volume) of air causing my issues. Also bigger exhaust wheel/housing which would loose a little low end but again wouldn't spool up so fast. Super slim chance LMS will go that direction but I feel like its what I have to do.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 05:10:13 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 05:10:13 PM
Good luck! I don't think they will do anything to the tune. But it's always worth a try...
They do use throttle closures to control the boost spikes.
They do use throttle closures to control the boost spikes.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 05:44:01 PM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 05:44:01 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 05:10:13 PM
Good luck! I don't think they will do anything to the tune. But it's always worth a try...
They do use throttle closures to control the boost spikes.
That would be horrible on their part.
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 06:01:19 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 06:01:19 PM
If you paid for a dyno tune where they can verify the changes they can potentially make are actually safe for your car then maybe. You would need to call them. They are not known for remote tuning anything outside of normal. Changes to shifting, yes.. things that change load, no...
But don't press them too hard, or they stop responding to your emails... ask me how I know...
But don't press them too hard, or they stop responding to your emails... ask me how I know...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 06:11:27 PM
Post by: polskifacet on June 08, 2017, 06:11:27 PM
We shall see what they say. It's unfortunate to learn some of these "gotcias" this way.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 10:49:22 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 10:49:22 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 08, 2017, 06:01:19 PM
If you paid for a dyno tune where they can verify the changes they can potentially make are actually safe for your car then maybe. You would need to call them. They are not known for remote tuning anything outside of normal. Changes to shifting, yes.. things that change load, no...
But don't press them too hard, or they stop responding to your emails... ask me how I know...
Returning known values to stock for a cold tune isn't rocket science, if it was adding power I understand but this is softening up the tune. It would literally take them 15 minutes to do. They are not doing it for 200 users , 1 guy needs this change, I don't need updates to this tune. I can run the regular v8 or v10 as long as its 65f and there is some humidity. Just do it, do it (lol) , AJP already did the discovery.
With 18k views and 400 replies 3.5x more than any other post on ECPF I'm dumbfounded that we can't come to some closure.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 10:53:56 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 10:53:56 AM
I'm not arguing with you. Just repeating historical information. I think they should help you.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 11:00:32 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 11:00:32 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 10:53:56 AMI know man they just leave me in a weird spot. I would rather them tell me to get lost instead of teetering on the edge so I can move on. nothing is ever personal to the guys at LMS or anyone here. My gripe is with LMS as a business and how my issue has been handled for the last 6 months.... it hasn't
I'm not arguing with you. Just repeating historical information. I think they should help you.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 11:08:20 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 11:08:20 AM
Dunno man... they did a no charge dyno test and diag for you. I just think they don't really do one off stuff unless it something simple...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 11:20:04 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 11:20:04 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 11:08:20 AMAnother issue, they didn't diag anything because I still haven't received confirmation on anything they did. They don't even remember. I had to do all the diag myself which you saw in the stock fuel system performance thread. Unfortunately they half arsed that visit. I think their intentions may have been good but the execution wasn't there. Who else would have been this patient with them and through with diagnosing what's going on? I feel like LMS is a car dealer and the second anything is different they say "nope not touching it". The point of this thread was information for others, and finding a solution. Since I am still waiting on closure from LMS, it looks like the solution is to use a different tuner.
Dunno man... they did a no charge dyno test and diag for you. I just think they don't really do one off stuff unless it something simple...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on June 09, 2017, 11:39:04 AM
Post by: SHOdded on June 09, 2017, 11:39:04 AM
Agreed, you should move on to a different tuner. LME has tried what they could, and it did not work out unfortunately.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on June 09, 2017, 12:30:53 PM
Post by: ZSHO on June 09, 2017, 12:30:53 PM
X2 and wholeheartedly agree with -MANU and would be best to move on and take a different route. Z
In all fairness think the personal invite alone was more than satisfactory on there end. Z
In all fairness think the personal invite alone was more than satisfactory on there end. Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 11:58:55 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 11:58:55 AM
*pending new info*
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on June 13, 2017, 12:31:30 PM
Post by: ZSHO on June 13, 2017, 12:31:30 PM
This will be my last and final response to this Topic on hand and The only issue that comes to mind is having a [MODE 6 DATA] through IDS performed in order to troubleshoot your issue.
The only other thing that comes to mind is new (COP )Coil Packs since the New Long Block does NOT Come with Coil Packs.
Adam Best of luck on which ever route you take and just trying to help ya out,that's all .Z
http://www.wellsve.com/video_mode6misfire.html (http://www.wellsve.com/video_mode6misfire.html)
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us010516.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us010516.htm)
https://support.alldata.com/alldata-repair-s3000-article/mode-6-data (https://support.alldata.com/alldata-repair-s3000-article/mode-6-data)
ftp://! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W17lsww6toE#)
The only other thing that comes to mind is new (COP )Coil Packs since the New Long Block does NOT Come with Coil Packs.
Adam Best of luck on which ever route you take and just trying to help ya out,that's all .Z
http://www.wellsve.com/video_mode6misfire.html (http://www.wellsve.com/video_mode6misfire.html)
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us010516.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us010516.htm)
https://support.alldata.com/alldata-repair-s3000-article/mode-6-data (https://support.alldata.com/alldata-repair-s3000-article/mode-6-data)
ftp://! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W17lsww6toE#)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Thanks to ZSHO LMS updated my tuner with v8 soft shift tune. Fuel wise it seems much more happy from what I got to test during lunch lol. More testing and a log to come. I'll give up full boost during shifts in a heartbeat if this works out.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 10:18:29 PM
Post by: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 10:18:29 PM
Logs . Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 15, 2017, 07:41:16 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on June 15, 2017, 07:41:16 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on June 13, 2017, 10:18:29 PM
Logs . Thoughts?
Fuel pressure is holding well enough I suppose.. it dipping.. which it shouldn't with that tune but we already know this... but its not dipping below 1500 psi...
You are having a good amount of KR on every run...
I would be concerned with this tune for the winter months...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on June 16, 2017, 12:12:44 AM
Post by: polskifacet on June 16, 2017, 12:12:44 AM
We'll see i think this last tune will hold be over a bit longer. I know AJP fine tune is the end goal. Bought some other accessories (catch can) so I would like to wait a bit before spending more money.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PM
Well... I hate to re-open this can of worms but add me to list of LMS tune users having this issue. I'm disappointed that this is still an issue as highly regarded as LMS appears to be. I expected a refined tune considering how long they have been doing it. I've only had it for a few weeks but is not quite what I expected. Don't get me wrong at moderate acceleration and low end improvements are very impressive. But WOT high rpm misfires and nosediving just ruin the tune. Not to mention the violent (banging) wot shifts on the 3 bar v11 perf tune. No way anyone in their right mind would treat their tranny like that and expect it to last. I know what firm tight shifts feel like and what breaking internals shifts feel like. This tune being the latter. Hopefully some solutions found soon. I'll admit I didn't read all 30 pages of this thread but has anyone found any successful fix for this issue?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 21, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 21, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PMHave you reached out to LMS?
Well... I hate to re-open this can of worms but add me to list of LMS tune users having this issue. I'm disappointed that this is still an issue as highly regarded as LMS appears to be. I expected a refined tune considering how long they have been doing it. I've only had it for a few weeks but is not quite what I expected. Don't get me wrong at moderate acceleration and low end improvements are very impressive. But WOT high rpm misfires and nosediving just ruin the tune. Not to mention the violent (banging) wot shifts on the 3 bar v11 perf tune. No way anyone in their right mind would treat their tranny like that and expect it to last. I know what firm tight shifts feel like and what breaking internals shifts feel like. This tune being the latter. Hopefully some solutions found soon. I'll admit I didn't read all 30 pages of this thread but has anyone found any successful fix for this issue?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:29:39 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:29:39 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 08:50:33 PMFix = AJP Tune
Well... I hate to re-open this can of worms but add me to list of LMS tune users having this issue. I'm disappointed that this is still an issue as highly regarded as LMS appears to be. I expected a refined tune considering how long they have been doing it. I've only had it for a few weeks but is not quite what I expected. Don't get me wrong at moderate acceleration and low end improvements are very impressive. But WOT high rpm misfires and nosediving just ruin the tune. Not to mention the violent (banging) wot shifts on the 3 bar v11 perf tune. No way anyone in their right mind would treat their tranny like that and expect it to last. I know what firm tight shifts feel like and what breaking internals shifts feel like. This tune being the latter. Hopefully some solutions found soon. I'll admit I didn't read all 30 pages of this thread but has anyone found any successful fix for this issue?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 09:30:32 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 09:30:32 PM
Yes. Apparently I am another rare example. Although after doing just a little bit of searching online I've come to find it doesn't seem to be very rare at all. I am not interested in a "water down" version of the tune tho. I paid a decent amount of money including cai (which lets be honest does nothing except for the fact that its washable and sounds good) 160 tstat 3 bar map and full exhaust plus tuner. But when I mention it they say its "odd". Yet doesn't seem to be very odd at all. And don't be mistaken I am not dogging on LMS in any way. But this is a real issue that needs to be addressed and at very least acknowledged.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:35:47 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:35:47 PM
I tried for a year including driving to LMS, I made it a mission to call everyday. Z called in my behalf multiple times, they have no interest in changing their tune for you. Go with AJP and you'll just enjoy the car vs going down a rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:40:55 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:40:55 PM
The least you should do is find a used x3 with an unlock left so you can log and try AJP's tune if we see the same fuel pressure drop (I still have it but AJP made tiny adjustments).
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2018, 10:56:27 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2018, 10:56:27 PM
It still is possible that you have some mechanical problems but without viewing a datalog it can be tough to point fingers....Despite what some people and companies will admit, custom tuning for each specific car can be beneficial....In polski's case I don't think the tune was solely to blame but there was an unwillingness from LMS to alter the tune. Although there were no mechanical problems to be found.
You may have a weak fuel pump but we are speculating without a datalog. You may have an ignition problem since you are mentioning misfires but again a datalog with specific PID's would help.
I will say from the logs of LMS tunes I have seen, the typically don't run enough boost to cause fuel pressure issues which is why it's easy for them to sell "set it and forget it" type tunes...They were developed and tested engineered tunes, so while I would not call it a custom tune for your car it is not your run of the mill "canned" tune either. And that's also why I wouldn't be quick to call your tune the problem...I've seen it too many times where a person's car is not mechanically ready for a tune but people do it anyway...If you have a problem before a tune then you will have a worse problem after the tune.
Good luck getting them to acknowledge any of your so called tune issues.
We have seen it here before whether it's from someone leaving LMS for a resolution or going to LMS for a resolution, unfortunately your end game may be to switch tunes if you are not happy. You may be asking for something that simply won't happen.
You may have a weak fuel pump but we are speculating without a datalog. You may have an ignition problem since you are mentioning misfires but again a datalog with specific PID's would help.
I will say from the logs of LMS tunes I have seen, the typically don't run enough boost to cause fuel pressure issues which is why it's easy for them to sell "set it and forget it" type tunes...They were developed and tested engineered tunes, so while I would not call it a custom tune for your car it is not your run of the mill "canned" tune either. And that's also why I wouldn't be quick to call your tune the problem...I've seen it too many times where a person's car is not mechanically ready for a tune but people do it anyway...If you have a problem before a tune then you will have a worse problem after the tune.
Good luck getting them to acknowledge any of your so called tune issues.
We have seen it here before whether it's from someone leaving LMS for a resolution or going to LMS for a resolution, unfortunately your end game may be to switch tunes if you are not happy. You may be asking for something that simply won't happen.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 11:29:53 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 11:29:53 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:35:47 PMThat's discouraging to hear. I was thinking about trying a different tuner but haven't heard much when it comes to Unleashed or others... LMS seemed like a no brainer but here I am. So I am definitely considering it. They (LMS) don't seem to keen on returns and refunds in my reading. "Its the cars fault" is what I have come across... The tune just "exposes" flaws that were already present in the vehicle that the stock tune hid. I mean come on. Idk man. But you're right I don't want to sit here chasing ghost. I've already done plug swaps sp534 various gap options 24 26 28 30 etc... The car has ALL fresh fluids. Coil boots etc. Use top tier 93 octane from various stations. Runs absolutely perfect on stock tune. I may be left with no choice but to return the tuner and request refund and explore other tuning options if they'll be so courteous. It blows that this supposed easy mod was one of the reasons I went with this Ecoboosted MKS. And I am already having issues. I was already skeptical of the ability to tune a car reliably this way as I normally would get my cars tuned custom on a dyno... Idk. I will continue to search for a solution in the meantime and if I do find some mechanical issue with the car I will gladly admit it and post my findings. Again.To be clear. Not a knock on LMS but these are real issues that I am having and apparently others as well. Keep you posted on my findings. Any good data logging software recommendations lmk... I have Torque pro on my phone but haven't really tried their "data logging" not sure if it is a practical useful logger in a that sense.
I tried for a year including driving to LMS, I made it a mission to call everyday. Z called in my behalf multiple times, they have no interest in changing their tune for you. Go with AJP and you'll just enjoy the car vs going down a rabbit hole.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2018, 11:51:42 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 21, 2018, 11:51:42 PM
I have only personally used Livelink via SCT for logging so I can't really speak to the apps such as Torque pro but I think most here would agree that Livelink is the way to go for logging especially when trying to diagnose a problem or in depth data log analysis.
Also I would be careful when assuming that a dyno tune will give better results. Many people that dyno tune cars won't touch ecoboost..You really need a person that specializes with the platform, in fact that goes for any late model car in my book....Tuning is not simply tuning anymore...The ECU's and file sizes are so complex and large there is so much.
There is no real need for a dyno for these cars for the most part unless you are doing heads, cams and the likes...ANd most people aren't doing that with these cars becuse those parts don't really exist..I've said this before but a dyno will give you a controlled place to run the car if you don't have the capability to do it legally or safely...The car gives you all the data you need with all the sensors.
Remote tuning can be much more cost effective and complete...A dyno tune will cost 400-600 typically and you generally get half a day. A remote tune may cost 125-200. You may get 10 revisions to your tune for 150...Way more value there and you get a more complete tune. because the tuner will simply review the data that you did the work to obtain...If I dyno tune a car I'm locked into 1 persons car for hours...If I'm tuning remotely I can multitask so it's way more efficient for customer and tuner.
Also I would be careful when assuming that a dyno tune will give better results. Many people that dyno tune cars won't touch ecoboost..You really need a person that specializes with the platform, in fact that goes for any late model car in my book....Tuning is not simply tuning anymore...The ECU's and file sizes are so complex and large there is so much.
There is no real need for a dyno for these cars for the most part unless you are doing heads, cams and the likes...ANd most people aren't doing that with these cars becuse those parts don't really exist..I've said this before but a dyno will give you a controlled place to run the car if you don't have the capability to do it legally or safely...The car gives you all the data you need with all the sensors.
Remote tuning can be much more cost effective and complete...A dyno tune will cost 400-600 typically and you generally get half a day. A remote tune may cost 125-200. You may get 10 revisions to your tune for 150...Way more value there and you get a more complete tune. because the tuner will simply review the data that you did the work to obtain...If I dyno tune a car I'm locked into 1 persons car for hours...If I'm tuning remotely I can multitask so it's way more efficient for customer and tuner.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 12:19:55 AM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 12:19:55 AM
Yes sir. That's why I had confidence in LMS. I know they are virtually specialist with this platform which is why I was surprised at these issues. Including ridiculously violent trans shifts as well on the perf v11 tune on my particular MKS @ WOT(yes even AFTER a full tank/350+ miles of driving for the adaptive learning). I would assume it would be another hidden problem only exposed by the tune but always present before. It just seems at this point there's nothing more that can be done on their end except a milder tune... Which isn't what I paid for. Why should everyone else pay the same price and get a better more aggressive problem free tune experience. Well. We will see how this unfolds. Keep you posted. At this point with my personal experience I would not be able to recommend this tune/tuner... Understanding My experience is an "exception"... I will look into that data logger. Thank you guys for your input.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2018, 12:33:47 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2018, 12:33:47 AM
I would offer you a tune for free and then if you were satisfied and had better results you can pay later but unfortunately you would need a device.....I know it still kind of sucks because you paid good money already for your LMS stuff and they are generally the most expensive in the industry.
My gut feeling says you have other things wrong but that doesn't mean it can't be helped or diagnosed better with logs...I still think something was amiss with Polski's fuel system but we were able to help it...He changed everything possible and all I could do was say something was wrong without giving a reason other than my other tunes didn't respond like his....So we were all kind of correct with our accusations.
But you would have to datalog my way with your LMS tune first so we could see what is going on with that.
My gut feeling says you have other things wrong but that doesn't mean it can't be helped or diagnosed better with logs...I still think something was amiss with Polski's fuel system but we were able to help it...He changed everything possible and all I could do was say something was wrong without giving a reason other than my other tunes didn't respond like his....So we were all kind of correct with our accusations.
But you would have to datalog my way with your LMS tune first so we could see what is going on with that.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 12:48:50 AM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 12:48:50 AM
Thanks for the offer... I will definitely consider it. I definitely would reward the work should it work out. I am on the hunt to figure this out. I do like the challenge and hopefully will have some positive results soon. What is the device and where can I find one? SCT X3? Thanks again. Im just one of those guys that like things to operate at their maximum potential. Pain in the arse sometimes.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2018, 12:58:15 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 22, 2018, 12:58:15 AM
An X3 would be your cheapest bet if you find one used....I sell devices but only new ones.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: SHOdded on January 22, 2018, 04:53:17 AM
Post by: SHOdded on January 22, 2018, 04:53:17 AM
I would go with an X4 for a 2013+ MY vehicle. In any case, you can sometimes find "used" devices by contacting Torrie at Unleashed Tuning. Unleashed is an official vendor on this forum.
info@unleashedtuning.com
You can also browse our ads section to see who is selling a tuning device, or put up a Wanted to Buy ad.
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html)
As far as the LMS tune goes, what are the official requirements to run the tune - fuel especially? Only top tier fuel is advised at all times. Not all top tier fuels behave the same, and brand performance can vary depending on which area you live in. You will need to scope out some local stations and compare results. If you have winter fuel in your area, that will impact performance on these "racehorse" tunes.
Re the violent shifts, that could be a combination of shift pressures, road surface temperatures, wheel/tire setup, etc. But the easiest "fix" is the shift pressure, just ask LMS to do that. Also, they recommend overfilling trans fluid a pint or so to prevent cavitation and it seems to work out pretty well.
info@unleashedtuning.com
You can also browse our ads section to see who is selling a tuning device, or put up a Wanted to Buy ad.
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html)
As far as the LMS tune goes, what are the official requirements to run the tune - fuel especially? Only top tier fuel is advised at all times. Not all top tier fuels behave the same, and brand performance can vary depending on which area you live in. You will need to scope out some local stations and compare results. If you have winter fuel in your area, that will impact performance on these "racehorse" tunes.
Re the violent shifts, that could be a combination of shift pressures, road surface temperatures, wheel/tire setup, etc. But the easiest "fix" is the shift pressure, just ask LMS to do that. Also, they recommend overfilling trans fluid a pint or so to prevent cavitation and it seems to work out pretty well.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2018, 07:34:03 AM
Post by: polskifacet on January 22, 2018, 07:34:03 AM
If you decide to get deeper into diagnosing, I have gauges for the low pressure pump which will allow you to do WOT pulls with the gauge sticking out from under the hood and a tested good HPFP. Will ship for free just to help you out! (maybe a deposit so I get them back lol)
As for mechanical issues everything that I've been able to check is in spec. It could be electrical gremlins more than mechanical. My car specifically; either uses more fuel than others for the same amount of power(o2 sensor could be off showing that its running a certain afr but in reality running rich) or the system can't produce the volume of others.
I added methanol injection which solves my issue at the power level I run. Maybe one day, if i keep the car long enough I may find the root cause by accident but also fine with dumping the car and enjoying w.e I buy next!
As for mechanical issues everything that I've been able to check is in spec. It could be electrical gremlins more than mechanical. My car specifically; either uses more fuel than others for the same amount of power(o2 sensor could be off showing that its running a certain afr but in reality running rich) or the system can't produce the volume of others.
I added methanol injection which solves my issue at the power level I run. Maybe one day, if i keep the car long enough I may find the root cause by accident but also fine with dumping the car and enjoying w.e I buy next!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 08:48:44 AM
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 08:48:44 AM
I highly recommend you ask them to try the V10 tune first before you give up out of frustration. I had high RPM hesitation issues with the V9 in Cold Weather when it first came out and as I recall they did acknowledge there was an issue. V10 completely corrected that. They will fix soften your shifts if you ask. I've run V11 for a little bit but I don't think it works for my car in the cold weather (aka crappy gas) very well. I am currently tuning remotely with AJP/Brad and have been very happy with the results.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 22, 2018, 11:30:13 AM
Post by: ZSHO on January 22, 2018, 11:30:13 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 09:30:32 PMWho from LMS Did you speak to Exactly? TIA. Z
Yes. Apparently I am another rare example. Although after doing just a little bit of searching online I've come to find it doesn't seem to be very rare at all. I am not interested in a "water down" version of the tune tho. I paid a decent amount of money including cai (which lets be honest does nothing except for the fact that its washable and sounds good) 160 tstat 3 bar map and full exhaust plus tuner. But when I mention it they say its "odd". Yet doesn't seem to be very odd at all. And don't be mistaken I am not dogging on LMS in any way. But this is a real issue that needs to be addressed and at very least acknowledged.
Due update/add your signature @ your earliest convenience!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 11:31:36 AM
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 21, 2018, 11:29:53 PMTorque pro is almost useless for logging. Refresh rate is way too slow. If you have a solid OBD adapter (like the MX) you can do okay with Forscan on a fast computer but nothing I've found beats SCT for log resolution...Quote from: polskifacet on January 21, 2018, 09:35:47 PMThat's discouraging to hear. I was thinking about trying a different tuner but haven't heard much when it comes to Unleashed or others... LMS seemed like a no brainer but here I am. So I am definitely considering it. They (LMS) don't seem to keen on returns and refunds in my reading. "Its the cars fault" is what I have come across... The tune just "exposes" flaws that were already present in the vehicle that the stock tune hid. I mean come on. Idk man. But you're right I don't want to sit here chasing ghost. I've already done plug swaps sp534 various gap options 24 26 28 30 etc... The car has ALL fresh fluids. Coil boots etc. Use top tier 93 octane from various stations. Runs absolutely perfect on stock tune. I may be left with no choice but to return the tuner and request refund and explore other tuning options if they'll be so courteous. It blows that this supposed easy mod was one of the reasons I went with this Ecoboosted MKS. And I am already having issues. I was already skeptical of the ability to tune a car reliably this way as I normally would get my cars tuned custom on a dyno... Idk. I will continue to search for a solution in the meantime and if I do find some mechanical issue with the car I will gladly admit it and post my findings. Again.To be clear. Not a knock on LMS but these are real issues that I am having and apparently others as well. Keep you posted on my findings. Any good data logging software recommendations lmk... I have Torque pro on my phone but haven't really tried their "data logging" not sure if it is a practical useful logger in a that sense.
I tried for a year including driving to LMS, I made it a mission to call everyday. Z called in my behalf multiple times, they have no interest in changing their tune for you. Go with AJP and you'll just enjoy the car vs going down a rabbit hole.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 11:58:07 AM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 11:58:07 AM
Thanks fellas. You guys are seriously generous and helpful on here. Honestly I was just looking for some possible leads and am getting offered much more than expected. So thanks to you all. My contacts at LMS always seemed to be someone different. Including through emails. I have to check my email history to tell you for sure.. But they definitely act like this is some super odd issue.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 01:39:46 PM
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 01:39:46 PM
They sent me a 93 CW tune last year and it solved the problem, but the shifts were still a little rough,
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 02:34:01 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 02:34:01 PM
I forgot to ask about this? What exactly is the 93 CW tune? I feel like I should probably know this. But Im afraid I don't. 😋
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 02:34:46 PM
Post by: ecoboostsho on January 22, 2018, 02:34:46 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 02:34:01 PMI'm pretty sure CW is just "Cold Weather"
I forgot to ask about this? What exactly is the 93 CW tune? I feel like I should probably know this. But Im afraid I don't.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 02:45:13 PM
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 02:45:13 PM
Yes, Cold Weather!
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 02:56:05 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 02:56:05 PM
Haha. Funny. Figured it was something simple. So is it basically a down tune?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 04:07:35 PM
Post by: BlackSho on January 22, 2018, 04:07:35 PM
Runs pretty good don't know what they changed but not much difference from the V10 or V11.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 22, 2018, 04:11:27 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 22, 2018, 04:11:27 PM
The 93-V7CW-Tune IIRC was introduced a few years ago which was a band-aid-temporary fix for those who suffered a slight hesitation during the cold winter months primarily with the crappy winter-blend fuel which the CW Tune kept the throttle blade at various points and open it much slower to keep from having the issue!
In general I have always added a bottle of Heet to every tank fill-up preferably the (yellow bottle) to combat the winter-blend fuel without any hiccups to mention! Z :)
In general I have always added a bottle of Heet to every tank fill-up preferably the (yellow bottle) to combat the winter-blend fuel without any hiccups to mention! Z :)
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 04:27:15 PM
Good info. So my captain obvious question of the day is... Does no one get their car tuned in winter while using this winter fuel? If that is the culprit I just figure it would have been settled by now. I mean these guys are in Michigan and their winter is a lot harsher and longer than mine here in Texas. Its almost 70° today. Idk. Maybe I will try some good additives and see how that goes. If that really is it then its a bit of a relief. We will see... Although LMS themselves didn't recommend the use of any when I asked previously when I originally heard this was a potential cause of the issue. The CW tune seems like a down tune and I can basically mimic that by just not going full on wot. Which is basically what I've been doing in the meantime. And its kind of a rip.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: dubcitySHO on January 22, 2018, 05:10:11 PM
Post by: dubcitySHO on January 22, 2018, 05:10:11 PM
I use Sheetz 93 e10 fuel exclusively (so far), and logged/revised with Brad during the heat of summer, and the winter grade fuel here in northwest central PA didn't have an effect on my tune. I log at least once per fresh tank of fuel just to keep an eye on possible KR or other issues, and have if anything seen a drop in any KR and it adds some spark. I'm assuming that's due to the IAT2 being lower from the lower ambient, but I'm just speculating.
I'll echo polski and others by saying, Brad will certainly take care of you.
I'll echo polski and others by saying, Brad will certainly take care of you.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 22, 2018, 08:52:56 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 22, 2018, 08:52:56 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 04:27:15 PMBeing in a southern state your formulation is probably different (read better) than the harsh winter states.
Good info. So my captain obvious question of the day is... Does no one get their car tuned in winter while using this winter fuel? If that is the culprit I just figure it would have been settled by now. I mean these guys are in Michigan and their winter is a lot harsher and longer than mine here in Texas. Its almost 70° today. Idk. Maybe I will try some good additives and see how that goes. If that really is it then its a bit of a relief. We will see... Although LMS themselves didn't recommend the use of any when I asked previously when I originally heard this was a potential cause of the issue. The CW tune seems like a down tune and I can basically mimic that by just not going full on wot. Which is basically what I've been doing in the meantime. And its kind of a rip.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: lamrith on January 23, 2018, 05:07:30 PM
Post by: lamrith on January 23, 2018, 05:07:30 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 22, 2018, 04:27:15 PMAs FoMoCoSHO mentions each area is different. The blend they use in Michigan may be better than I have out here in WA due to environmental factors of Govt views on ethanol.
Good info. So my captain obvious question of the day is... Does no one get their car tuned in winter while using this winter fuel? If that is the culprit I just figure it would have been settled by now. I mean these guys are in Michigan and their winter is a lot harsher and longer than mine here in Texas. Its almost 70° today. Idk. Maybe I will try some good additives and see how that goes. If that really is it then its a bit of a relief. We will see... Although LMS themselves didn't recommend the use of any when I asked previously when I originally heard this was a potential cause of the issue. The CW tune seems like a down tune and I can basically mimic that by just not going full on wot. Which is basically what I've been doing in the meantime. And its kind of a rip.
I tuned my car out here in late Feb, early march of last year. It was not intentional, it was just when I got the car and bought a tune. As others have mentioned I whole heartedly recommend AJP. His tunes are off the hook, and he really takes the time to not only keep you the owner informed, but also diagnose each car individually. Him offering to let you pay later if happy with tune I think proves how he wants to make sure customers are happy and his tunes are dialed in.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: ZSHO on January 23, 2018, 09:26:47 PM
Post by: ZSHO on January 23, 2018, 09:26:47 PM
Have you reached out to LMS lately ? or have they reached out to you for a probable fix to your underlying issues on your newly acquired 13 MKS!!.
In any event you need to make sure your vehicle is running to its fullest potential as mentioned by others before installing a tune!
In my case needed to change both my front primary 02 sensors @ 50K because they weren't responding correctly prior to having a Dyno Tune performed! just some food for thought my friend! Z
In any event you need to make sure your vehicle is running to its fullest potential as mentioned by others before installing a tune!
In my case needed to change both my front primary 02 sensors @ 50K because they weren't responding correctly prior to having a Dyno Tune performed! just some food for thought my friend! Z
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: tarmstrong on January 23, 2018, 10:43:46 PM
Post by: tarmstrong on January 23, 2018, 10:43:46 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 22, 2018, 12:58:15 AM
An X3 would be your cheapest bet if you find one used....I sell devices but only new ones.
I have a SCT Tuner that I am getting rid of that I used to tune the Lincoln LS that I sold last summer. Bought an X4 to tune the SHO I think it is an X3 but there is no marking on it. All I used it for was to load tunes so I have no idea what data logging capabilities, etc. it has. If you are interested let me know. I was going to purge it with all the rest of the LS stuff this spring.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 09:54:40 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 09:54:40 AM
Any update stinkinlinkin
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 10:40:00 AM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 10:40:00 AM
Actually not yet. I'm checking for possible fuel supply "starvation" issue right now. I was actually looking for specs on minimum pressure but don't have access to all data like I used to. I was looking at my pressure last night and saw it drop to around 800 psi during WOT (as misfires occurred).. Idk what the minimum "norm" spec is however. The other thing I'll mention is that it seems very inconsistent. Even within the same tank of gas from one day to the next. Its always there but sometimes its worse than others. Thanks for asking.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 11:16:05 AM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 11:16:05 AM
You are most likely chasing a ghost....Polski checked his entire fuel system...low pressure from the lift pump will be between like 55-110 psi and the high pressure varies but at wot generally 2000 is the target so less than 1000 is more than a 50% reduction and generally not good for direct injection.
Your worst fuel pressure will happen on the 2-3 wot upshift
Have you heard back from LMS?
Your worst fuel pressure will happen on the 2-3 wot upshift
Have you heard back from LMS?
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
Yes. They want me to try a less aggressive tune. But I'm personally a kinda a balls to wall guy. I want to squeeze the most out of anything I own... 😋 I have to be certain on my end there is no issue on my car. It does kinda seem as if "something" (fuel ignition timing o2 sensors) is pegging out with the tune parameters. Maybe the tune is too aggressive or maybe something on the car is on the fringes of spec. It's just odd that most people seem to not have an issue. But there are definitely those of us that do. Plus the fact that LMS sells a HPFP of their own leads me to wonder. But at 1600 dollars and no guarantee in benefit for us on this "conservative" tune. Its just crazy. That cost more than all my mods combined.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 02:27:42 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 02:27:42 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
Yes. They want me to try a less aggressive tune. But I'm personally a kinda a balls to wall guy. I want to squeeze the most out of anything I own... 😋 I have to be certain on my end there is no issue on my car. It does kinda seem as if "something" (fuel ignition timing o2 sensors) is pegging out with the tune parameters. Maybe the tune is too aggressive or maybe something on the car is on the fringes of spec. It's just odd that most people seem to not have an issue. But there are definitely those of us that do. Plus the fact that LMS sells a HPFP of their own leads me to wonder. But at 1600 dollars and no guarantee in benefit for us on this "conservative" tune. Its just crazy. That cost more than all my mods combined.
Sounds like your car has identical symptoms to my car.
Does your ECU match to mine? (Found on sticker under windshield cover)
P/N: DA5A-12A650-BB
H/W:DA8A-12B684-AA
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 25, 2018, 02:48:16 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
But I'm personally a kinda a balls to wall guy. I want to squeeze the most out of anything I own.. It does kinda seem as if "something" (fuel ignition timing o2 sensors) is pegging out with the tune parameters. Maybe the tune is too aggressive or maybe something on the car is on the fringes of spec.
It's not wise to ignore what your car is telling you...you may be a balls to the walls type guy but if your fuel pressure drops and you have s severe knock event that cracks a piston is it worth it, especially when the car was warning you
And you are wildly reaching and speculating on the idea that your tune is on the fringe of what some of the sensors can see or measure...ive said this before but honestly if I made a tune with LMs boost levels I wouldn't even tell the customer that a 3 bar map sensor is necessary even with boost spikes....
I don't really enjoy giving kudos to LMS but I do like giving facts and debunking myths when I can....not all cars are equal for whatever reason..you really need some good datalogs.
What is your strategy? Id like to compare it to polskis
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
I agree with you on what I believe is a completely unnecessary 3 bar map considering the boost levels I've seen. And yes I am speculating on what's causing the issue mostly because I don't have any tuning experience and I'm not exactly sure what parameters they changed. So I'm basically just using my tech experience to diagnose this as I would out in the field. So yea. Its a bit harder to diag with this custom tune... If not Impossible. I just need to rule out what I can. Added a screenshot of my gauges form torque on my drive to work earlier.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 03:57:23 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
I agree with you on what I believe is a completely unnecessary 3 bar map considering the boost levels I've seen. And yes I am speculating on what's causing the issue mostly because I don't have any tuning experience and I'm not exactly sure what parameters they changed. So I'm basically just using my tech experience to diagnose this as I would out in the field. So yea. Its a bit harder to diag with this custom tune... If not Impossible. I just need to rule out what I can. Added a screenshot of my gauges form torque on my drive to work earlier.
Different then my strategy.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 05:22:13 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 05:22:13 PM
Im not sure if this had been mentioned or tried before. But on my drive home i did a little bit of experimenting. I put the car in S manual mode. I would accelerate at approx half throttle all the way until it shifted on its own at about 6500. Had no issues whatsoever with misfires that way even from second to third. What I found odd is that as I tried to do a wot pull in manual but still allow it to auto shift and it would not. It hit a brick wall of misfires at about 6k (+or-) and never auto "safety" shifted. Not sure if it was rev limiter or combination. Never the less. I won't try that again. But the part throttle acceleration had no stutters even at highest rpms.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 05:55:37 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 05:55:37 PM
Sounds like potentially traction issue. Try with traction control off.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 06:04:24 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 06:04:24 PM
TC was off at the time. It normally is off when I'm "testing"...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 07:33:00 PM
Post by: polskifacet on January 25, 2018, 07:33:00 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 06:04:24 PMI had the exact issues with my LMS tune. I only had shifting problems with AJP on the meth tune when it was cold out but Brad did his tuning magic and adjusted some shift pressures and such and I haven't experienced it since. It unfortunately almost makes me happy that I'm not the only one, most of the guys were already tired of my moaning and groaning lol.
TC was off at the time. It normally is off when I'm "testing"...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 25, 2018, 08:56:18 PM
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on January 25, 2018, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 05:22:13 PMAre you sure these are actual misfires?
Im not sure if this had been mentioned or tried before. But on my drive home i did a little bit of experimenting. I put the car in S manual mode. I would accelerate at approx half throttle all the way until it shifted on its own at about 6500. Had no issues whatsoever with misfires that way even from second to third. What I found odd is that as I tried to do a wot pull in manual but still allow it to auto shift and it would not. It hit a brick wall of misfires at about 6k (+or-) and never auto "safety" shifted. Not sure if it was rev limiter or combination. Never the less. I won't try that again. But the part throttle acceleration had no stutters even at highest rpms.
Do you have a CEL?
Thanks to the EPA It doesn't take many to throw a CEL
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 09:04:33 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 25, 2018, 09:04:33 PM
Funny. Me and you buddy. So did you just have to "eat" the 600$ LMS tune? I have no problem trying another tuner if they offered a refund... It hasn't even been a month yet. Seems like they would prefer that I settle on a older less aggressive tune... Well thats not what I shelled out my cash for. Its tougher knowing other people get that for their money but Id have to settle for less. But idk. We will see. No I have no CEL.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Ramairetransam on January 26, 2018, 10:01:56 AM
Post by: Ramairetransam on January 26, 2018, 10:01:56 AM
13 mks eb and i have seen first hand v11 93 3 bar issues with the lms tune . It had the chugging/hesitation at the top of 2nd and a little at top of first . Never any issues with v10 . It actually has a v11 93 3 bar soft shift reduced power tune waiting to go in .
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Thanks for the info. Im sure this isn't as isolated as it may seem. I did hear from LMS. They sent me some "updates" this morning and I hadn't even been in contact with them directly since I've been trying to get some data logs first. Im assuming they may have seen these postings.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on January 26, 2018, 12:45:54 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on January 26, 2018, 12:45:54 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Im assuming they may have seen these postings.
Oh yes LMS trolls and lurks in the shadows just like the rest of us lol...don't let them kid you
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 02:40:40 PM
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 26, 2018, 12:45:54 PMQuote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Im assuming they may have seen these postings.
Oh yes they troll and lurk in the shadows just like the rest of us lol...don't let them kid you
Haha. It's a bit unfortunate that you seem more interested in my issues than they do thus far. Its frustrating emailing then waiting 2 days for a question "have you tried this tried that" then having to wait another 2 days for another swinging in the wind tune attempt "well try this tune or that tune". Anyhow. So correct me if I'm wrong but is the HPFP strictly a mechanical pump. Is there anyway for the pressure to be raised via the tune other than at the injectors. (Shortening pulse width-duration) In other words scaling back the tune. I just figured the hpfp would be able to handle these relatively mild tunes with no problem. Sorry guys if you're tired of hearing about this shyt. Just so far I bought a 900$ problem and it blows. Was looking forward to these mods and its just been an expensive problem.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: El_SHO on April 24, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
Post by: El_SHO on April 24, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 26, 2018, 12:45:54 PMQuote from: StinkinLinkin13 on January 26, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Im assuming they may have seen these postings.
Oh yes LMS trolls and lurks in the shadows just like the rest of us lol...don't let them kid you
I have this same problem, will ur tune correct this? I have the same ECU as polskifacet
Title: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 25, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 25, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
The LMS V11 tune on my 2016 works well... I do notice some big pressure drops in the rail pressure though.. and can imagine if you are somewhere where it's cold, it would cause problems... at 40F I saw pressure drops below 1000psi which I don't like...
Nothing you can really do helps the stock HPFP... you can lean out the mixture in the tune which will help take the load off the fuel system...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nothing you can really do helps the stock HPFP... you can lean out the mixture in the tune which will help take the load off the fuel system...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 01:33:26 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 01:33:26 PM
Quote from: BJSHO on April 25, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
The LMS V11 tune on my 2016 works well... I do notice some big pressure drops in the rail pressure though.. and can imagine if you are somewhere where it's cold, it would cause problems... at 40F I saw pressure drops below 1000psi which I don't like...
Nothing you can really do helps the stock HPFP... you can lean out the mixture in the tune which will help take the load off the fuel system...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could do what was needed for Polski's problem....Max throttle control like stock....He actually said he didn't feel a difference in throttle response.
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 25, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
Post by: StealBlueSho on April 25, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 01:33:26 PMQuote from: BJSHO on April 25, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
The LMS V11 tune on my 2016 works well... I do notice some big pressure drops in the rail pressure though.. and can imagine if you are somewhere where it's cold, it would cause problems... at 40F I saw pressure drops below 1000psi which I don't like...
Nothing you can really do helps the stock HPFP... you can lean out the mixture in the tune which will help take the load off the fuel system...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could do what was needed for Polski's problem....Max throttle control like stock....He actually said he didn't feel a difference in throttle response.
True, I didn't mention the throttle control portion but that makes a huge difference... but it does kill your VE from what I understand...
Additionally, it might have been the install on my meth kit, but when the throttle would close up to control the load, I would run rich for a second... my AFRs were not as stable when using the throttle to control load.
On my tunes without throttle control the AFRs were rock steady...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 07:51:08 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: BJSHO on April 25, 2018, 01:55:53 PMQuote from: AJP turbo on April 25, 2018, 01:33:26 PMQuote from: BJSHO on April 25, 2018, 08:14:47 AM
The LMS V11 tune on my 2016 works well... I do notice some big pressure drops in the rail pressure though.. and can imagine if you are somewhere where it's cold, it would cause problems... at 40F I saw pressure drops below 1000psi which I don't like...
Nothing you can really do helps the stock HPFP... you can lean out the mixture in the tune which will help take the load off the fuel system...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could do what was needed for Polski's problem....Max throttle control like stock....He actually said he didn't feel a difference in throttle response.
True, I didn't mention the throttle control portion but that makes a huge difference... but it does kill your VE from what I understand...
Additionally, it might have been the install on my meth kit, but when the throttle would close up to control the load, I would run rich for a second... my AFRs were not as stable when using the throttle to control load.
On my tunes without throttle control the AFRs were rock steady...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Saying that it kills VE may be a bit strong. I can't say one way or another if it hurts 1/4 mile times. I would say the cars that run good 1/4 mine times with the throttle open is due to the power allowed by the uncontrolled boost spikes
Is running a bit rich at .75 lambda during throttle closure a terrible thing? Especially if it's also preventing low fuel pressure. I know what scenario I would choose
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Skydogs on April 26, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
Post by: Skydogs on April 26, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
Yeah love the throttle control in my tunes I dont feel it at all and it keeps deto at bay so we can push boost and timing to the jagged edge!! Can wait to run my car I feel I will make a few people say damnnnnn! LoL
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: derfdog15 on April 27, 2018, 12:50:39 PM
Post by: derfdog15 on April 27, 2018, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: Skydogs on April 26, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
Yeah love the throttle control in my tunes I dont feel it at all and it keeps deto at bay so we can push boost and timing to the jagged edge!! Can wait to run my car I feel I will make a few people say damnnnnn! LoL
That part is always fun. I remember when I ran 13.8 on the AJP 93, 3 bar tune. Just CAI, tune, and axle backs. People at the track legit asked me "How much over 10k have you spent on mods...there's no way thats a stock motor..." and I told em, "Few hundred in a tune and MAP sensor, axle backs were for sound but also a few hundred". No one believed it till I popped the hood. Quite a look of shock as well when you beat a big V8 car...
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: AJP turbo on April 27, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
Post by: AJP turbo on April 27, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on April 27, 2018, 12:50:39 PMQuote from: Skydogs on April 26, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
Yeah love the throttle control in my tunes I dont feel it at all and it keeps deto at bay so we can push boost and timing to the jagged edge!! Can wait to run my car I feel I will make a few people say damnnnnn! LoL
That part is always fun. I remember when I ran 13.8 on the AJP 93, 3 bar tune. Just CAI, tune, and axle backs. People at the track legit asked me "How much over 10k have you spent on mods...there's no way thats a stock motor..." and I told em, "Few hundred in a tune and MAP sensor, axle backs were for sound but also a few hundred". No one believed it till I popped the hood. Quite a look of shock as well when you beat a big V8 car...
Think you mean 12.8 lol
Title: Re: Hesitation in boost and high rpm
Post by: Skydogs on April 28, 2018, 08:44:17 AM
Post by: Skydogs on April 28, 2018, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 27, 2018, 01:09:31 PMQuote from: derfdog15 on April 27, 2018, 12:50:39 PMQuote from: Skydogs on April 26, 2018, 11:47:14 AM
Yeah love the throttle control in my tunes I dont feel it at all and it keeps deto at bay so we can push boost and timing to the jagged edge!! Can wait to run my car I feel I will make a few people say damnnnnn! LoL
That part is always fun. I remember when I ran 13.8 on the AJP 93, 3 bar tune. Just CAI, tune, and axle backs. People at the track legit asked me "How much over 10k have you spent on mods...there's no way thats a stock motor..." and I told em, "Few hundred in a tune and MAP sensor, axle backs were for sound but also a few hundred". No one believed it till I popped the hood. Quite a look of shock as well when you beat a big V8 car...
Think you mean 12.8 lol
X2 LOL