As I read that the refineries start to switch over to winter blend mixes no later than September 15th it should be reaching our pumps now if not already.
My question is, could adding say 2 gallons to a fill up (well adding the 85 first as to mix it better) be a good way to combat this?
Rich
Edit: gas has dropped about 30 cents a gallon here in last week. Leeds me to believe it's here. KR has went up since this drop in price also.
Do Not try E85 blending in a pre 2013 3.5 EB
I am doing it. In a 2012. I'm starting small at 16%.
Just enough to gain a 1-2 octane rating to combat the crappy gas that is about to arrive.
Quote from: Josephm on October 12, 2014, 11:51:18 AM
I am doing it. In a 2012. I'm starting small at 16%.
I was thinking something small also. Not for added power, just to battle the less quality gas. Thinking a 10-15% area.
Rich
Ya a gallon in a half or so in each tank. I did a gallon last tank and still saw 22mpg which is good for a flex
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
Here's an awesome calculator that i use
Quote from: Josephm on October 12, 2014, 12:02:25 PM
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
Here's an awesome calculator that i use
Why thank you
Rich
Quote from: Josephm on October 12, 2014, 12:02:25 PM
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
Here's an awesome calculator that i use
Thanks. This is really nice!
Hope none of you run into issues, it's not wise to randomly experiment with e85 especially if your car isn't even rated for it.
Each state has a different blends of winter fuels, including e85. Do your research on what it is in your state as you may not be doing anything other than running too much ethanol in your vehicles and not even achieving the octane rating you are trying to achieve
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 12, 2014, 03:11:13 PM
Hope none of you run into issues, it's not wise to randomly experiment with e85 especially if your car isn't even rated for it.
Each state has a different blends of winter fuels, including e85. Do your research on what it is in your state as you may not be doing anything other than running too much ethanol in your vehicles and not even achieving the octane rating you are trying to achieve
This issue is quite overblown as quality and consistency has increased tremendously over the years. Find the msds sheet for your supplier and it will tell you what percentage e is in their winter blend. There is a study in the E-85 section with a nationwide study of over 130 stations across the country. That was in 2009 and I expect things have gotten even better since.
The one area where there are still issue has to do with vapor pressure which is a non issue in the winter when most of your fuel is straight gas.
2013 plus are rated for e-15. Other than the lpfp, the fuel systems are the same from Gen 4.1 to 4.2.
I have put almost 15 k on the car experimenting with various blends all the way to 55%. Not one dtc, emissions code, nothing. I gained 4/10ths in the quarter stock.
Our di system is Bosch DI Motronic. Feel free to research it and its capabilities. K think I may have dropped links in one of the E-85 threads.
I agree with what you're saying about e85. That doesn't change the fact that different states use different blends of winter fuels, including e85. I'm not saying e85 during the summer months isn't e85, I'm saying it's not e85 in the winter months. I know for a fact it's e75 here in my state during the winter months. I don't know about the SHO, but I thought even you mentioned not to run it in a pre 2013? So my entire post was make sure your vehicle can handle it, and also check to see what the winter blend even is or you may be running 20 ethanol and still only achieving 90 octane
FoMoCoSHO ^^^quality info...also consider you a leader in this area...thx for the reply
Rich
Is what I'm saying incorrect? I see 2011-2012 year vehicle signatures here. I guess maybe I shouldn't post any words of precaution? It seems like my post is being entirely disregarded as misinformation. Again, be careful running e85 if your vehicle isn't even rated for it, and make sure and find out what your states winter blends are or you may be running extremely high levels of ethanol and still not achieving a certain octane rating. Idk maybe I'm wrong.
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 12, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Is what I'm saying incorrect? I see 2011-2012 year vehicle signatures here. I guess maybe I shouldn't post any words of precaution? It seems like my post is being entirely disregarded as misinformation. Again, be careful running e85 if your vehicle isn't even rated for it, and make sure and find out what your states winter blends are or you may be running extremely high levels of ethanol and still not achieving a certain octane rating. Idk maybe I'm wrong.
i don't think you're wrong at all for suggesting caution. I think everyone should do what i did, research, verify, and increase blend slowly while monitoring the vitals of your vehicle. I'm just giving some results of my research combined with a lot of miles of real world usage.
You are 100 percent correct about winter blends and i was merely giving folks the tools to verify what their blend is. Mine also drops to 75 in the winter.
I'm sorry if you thought I was being dismissive of your post, not my intention.
Thank you for this. The thing I like about this community is most of us do our own real world testing, and I have myself asked you questions about the e85 subject as I know you have experience with it. This forum also isn't full of people who give out careless misinformation, in general I believe we all want everyone's vehicle to not only perform well but be safe to not cause any harm either. So to these guys with sub 2013 model year vehicles what would be your advice? Also I'm fortunate enough to get my e85 from Stinker, who I believe is very good at putting out the information on their fuel blends, where I have had to really really dig to find others info. That and there is a big corvette scene here so lots of those guys have already done the research and made it available to the rest of us in my area.
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 12, 2014, 05:05:42 PM
Thank you for this. The thing I like about this community is most of us do our own real world testing, and I have myself asked you questions about the e85 subject as I know you have experience with it. This forum also isn't full of people who give out careless misinformation, in general I believe we all want everyone's vehicle to not only perform well but be safe to not cause any harm either. So to these guys with sub 2013 model year vehicles what would be your advice? Also I'm fortunate enough to get my e85 from Stinker, who I believe is very good at putting out the information on their fuel blends, where I have had to really really dig to find others info. That and there is a big corvette scene here so lots of those guys have already done the research and made it available to the rest of us in my area.
I have also been blessed with high quality corn and high quality 93 within a couple of minutes of my house.
I won't give advice, but I will say this. We have considered a used SHO and it could be a Gen 4.1. I would not hesitate to drive the crap gas out and immediately do a partial tank blend at 25 percent. Partial tank so if I did have an issue, i could fix it quickly by adding 93.
I played with it stock for quite a while so I am familiar with how it should behave.
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 12, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Is what I'm saying incorrect? I see 2011-2012 year vehicle signatures here. I guess maybe I shouldn't post any words of precaution? It seems like my post is being entirely disregarded as misinformation. Again, be careful running e85 if your vehicle isn't even rated for it, and make sure and find out what your states winter blends are or you may be running extremely high levels of ethanol and still not achieving a certain octane rating. Idk maybe I'm wrong.
Not at all. Appreciate it also. Quite busy today. Precautions definitely are being looked into.
Rich
The gas cap and manual say nothing above e20 or 20% ethanol. I've started at 14-16% and seen nothing but good things.
MY X says e15
Added 2 gallons of e/85 to the tank and promptly filled up with 93 at the same BP. Got to talk to the manager (who orders the fuel) and he couldn't give me much info, but did say to make sure your station is a "branded" one.
The higher than usual KR readings are gone, car is twice as smooth under all throttle conditions.
Rich
Great to hear! That would make it, what, 18% or so? Hope this will bear out over an extended run :) Open some more doors for the Gen 4.1 folks!
Quote from: SHOdded on October 15, 2014, 02:44:30 PM
Great to hear! That would make it, what, 18% or so? Hope this will bear out over an extended run :) Open some more doors for the Gen 4.1 folks!
Looking into exact blend as on the e/85 pump it says no lower than 70% ethonal. Did confirm that a branded BP supplier 93 has 9 or 10% guaranteed all year. Was trying to make sure it stayed under 20%.
Car pulled real hard and I can't describe how much smoother it felt. Max KR at WOT from a few different speeds was .8 with a lift knock of 2. Much better than the last week where I was getting up to 3.5 at WOT and an outrageous 5.2 lift knock.
Be careful out there with this winter gas everyone. This is the time to monitor closely.
Rich
Since you a using a top tier as your base, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Regarding the winter gas.
Bp doesn't make E-85 so ask him what the name is on the side of the truck that delivers it. Then we can dig up the msds for it
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 15, 2014, 04:02:10 PM
Bp doesn't make E-85 so ask him what the name is on the side of the truck that delivers it. Then we can dig up the msds for it
Thanks for this. Will do.
Rich
After a 1/4 tank of this mix. ZERO knock under all conditions!!!
Rich
Went to the track last night and am pretty sure I experienced winter gas syndrome. Soon as it shifted to 3rd it was shuddering. Cleared up in 4th. Best the b*tch ran was 13.32. Horrible. It was running that in 90 degree heat, it was low 60's last night. Waste of time and money. Next time, I'm adding either 100 octane unleaded or Torco.
Simple DIY fix, gotta love it!
I would invest in a cheap alcohol tester like I did. Really cleared up the mix information from fuel stations. I test my fuel every time to see what it's at. I have one station that sells straight 91 with 0% E, yet they post on the pump "Contains 10% E". Other places say 10% when it's only at 5%. Made mixing for my car so much easier. I used e98 from then on since it was the fastest solution to mixing.
Now it's almost time to start mixing e98 in the tank while spraying meth. Should be interesting.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 12:14:31 PM
Now it's almost time to start mixing e98 in the tank while spraying meth. Should be interesting.
Do you think you will need a boost limiter? LOL!
So a 2011 should be fine with a slight mix (2 gallons) of e85? Also what do you busy consider top tier e85? My car sees either Exxon Mobile 93 Octane or Shell 93 Octane religiously and none of these stations carry e85.
Quote from: SHOdded on October 16, 2014, 02:54:02 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 12:14:31 PM
Now it's almost time to start mixing e98 in the tank while spraying meth. Should be interesting.
Do you think you will need a boost limiter? LOL!
Haha nah I have a built in one. They call it a claustrophobic connecting rod. Lol.
Quote from: Spartn27 on October 16, 2014, 03:07:08 PM
So a 2011 should be fine with a slight mix (2 gallons) of e85? Also what do you busy consider top tier e85? My car sees either Exxon Mobile 93 Octane or Shell 93 Octane religiously and none of these stations carry e85.
I use Shell for 93 and Speedway for E.
Shell is top tier, unsure about Exxon.
Exxon is def top tier. http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html (http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html) But all retailer facilities will not be equal.
I try to only use shell as well
Quote from: Spartn27 on October 16, 2014, 03:07:08 PM
So a 2011 should be fine with a slight mix (2 gallons) of e85? Also what do you busy consider top tier e85? My car sees either Exxon Mobile 93 Octane or Shell 93 Octane religiously and none of these stations carry e85.
A lot of stations actually get their gas from the top tier stations anyway. You can usually find out by calling or checking their website
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 16, 2014, 02:54:02 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 12:14:31 PM
Now it's almost time to start mixing e98 in the tank while spraying meth. Should be interesting.
Do you think you will need a boost limiter? LOL!
Haha nah I have a built in one. They call it a claustrophobic connecting rod. Lol.
Just caught that...lol...very clever
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 16, 2014, 11:50:40 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 16, 2014, 02:54:02 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on October 16, 2014, 12:14:31 PM
Now it's almost time to start mixing e98 in the tank while spraying meth. Should be interesting.
Do you think you will need a boost limiter? LOL!
Haha nah I have a built in one. They call it a claustrophobic connecting rod. Lol.
Just caught that...lol...very clever
Rich
Hah, Sometimes I think i over do it.
lol
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 15, 2014, 02:50:22 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 15, 2014, 02:44:30 PM
Great to hear! That would make it, what, 18% or so? Hope this will bear out over an extended run :) Open some more doors for the Gen 4.1 folks!
Looking into exact blend as on the e/85 pump it says no lower than 70% ethonal. Did confirm that a branded BP supplier 93 has 9 or 10% guaranteed all year. Was trying to make sure it stayed under 20%.
Car pulled real hard and I can't describe how much smoother it felt. Max KR at WOT from a few different speeds was .8 with a lift knock of 2. Much better than the last week where I was getting up to 3.5 at WOT and an outrageous 5.2 lift knock.
Be careful out there with this winter gas everyone. This is the time to monitor closely.
Rich
Do you monitor the learned octane ratio by chance? Has it changed?
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I dont. Didn't think of it at the time. Shucks
Rich
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 15, 2014, 04:02:10 PM
Bp doesn't make E-85 so ask him what the name is on the side of the truck that delivers it. Then we can dig up the msds for it
Stopped at same station where the guy was very informative last time and he wasn't in this time. Stake out time...lol.
In the 4 runs at the track yesterday I recorded no knock whatsoever! Guessing this is the fuel mixing better and car learning it.
On the ride home the wife was driving and scored a .8 lift knock. Wondering if this is something to do with letting off with all that torque built up because at the track letting off at 110 didn't get any lift knock?
Rich
I've been sticking with the same Gulf brand and station that showed me such an improvement in my KR readings a couple of months ago, and to my disappointment, this last tank is starting to show some low octane results. It started slowly but as I get deeper into this tankful, I'm up from a steady 2 to a 5.5. Maybe this sudden change can be attributed to winter gas and if so, I guess I'll have to run a 91 octane tune for the winter or experiment with mixing a couple gallons of E85 with my normal fill up. FWIW, I'm still not aware of the driving activity that produces my high reading. When I watch, full throttle or lift off do not produce a high reading. But in normal driving if I take my eyes off the gauge for a few minutes, a spike is captured. I'm going to see if I can get my KR gauge to give me an audible feedback on high readings.
Quote from: Larrylu on October 21, 2014, 10:39:08 AM
I've been sticking with the same Gulf brand and station that showed me such an improvement in my KR readings a couple of months ago, and to my disappointment, this last tank is starting to show some low octane results. It started slowly but as I get deeper into this tankful, I'm up from a steady 2 to a 5.5. Maybe this sudden change can be attributed to winter gas and if so, I guess I'll have to run a 91 octane tune for the winter. FWIW, I'm still not aware of the driving activity that produces my high reading. When I watch, full throttle or lift off do not produce a high reading. But in normal driving if I take my eyes off the gauge for a few minutes, a spike is captured. I'm going to see if I can get my KR gauge to give me an audible feedback on high readings.
I was noticing same thing Larry. My WOT pulls would show more than normal but not as bad medium throttle in normal conditions. My lift knock spiked as well.
Also seeing that the car needs to be fully warmed up to not register knock on these cold mornings. Noticing a few extra minutes does a world of difference here.
Big thanks to the GURUS in the Torque PID'S thread for making this a posibility. Probably the best investment made for the car yet is the ability to monitor this stuff.
Rich
Capturing any fuel trim data yet? Though Torque's 1/10 of a second resolution may not be sufficient to capture the cause of the spike, hoping :)
My
LTFT1--LTFT2 --conditions
13.3---8.6-----idle
17.2---15.8----50 mph
15.6---13.3----80 mph
12.5---10.9----wot
Rich
Bank 1 is definitely running leaner, much more so at idle. Is that normal? Also the numbers are much higher than on my naturally aspirated Edge, which tends to run maximum 2-4% LTFT. Interested in seeing your numbers next time it is just pump gas (no blend).
That's the 2 gallon blend...that idle was cold start but warmed up...will do a check after warmed up and driven
Rich
10.9 and 6.2 at idle in park
Rich
While coasting 9.4 and 3.9
Rich
Quote from: SHOdded on October 21, 2014, 12:05:18 PM
Bank 1 is definitely running leaner, much more so at idle. Is that normal? Also the numbers are much higher than on my naturally aspirated Edge, which tends to run maximum 2-4% LTFT. Interested in seeing your numbers next time it is just pump gas (no blend).
My bank one also runs similarly leaner stock, stock+e, and tuned so I don't think there's an issue
Without knowing baseline straight gas numbers its really hard to tell how much extra enrichment is happening. What are your short terms doing? Are they close to zero?
No worries of a cel as that is allegedly tripped at +- 25%
Mine was well into the 30's at e55, no CEL or dtc's set.
My fuel tables seem to be completely different so the only thing I really have to compare is stock behavior.
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 21, 2014, 11:43:06 AM
My
LTFT1--LTFT2 --conditions
13.3---8.6-----idle
17.2---15.8----50 mph
15.6---13.3----80 mph
12.5---10.9----wot
Rich
Thanks for recording this Rich. Considering your custom blend fuel, I expected your LTFT to be higher than mine. Glad to see your left and right banks differing by a similar amount to mine also. I'm going to document my readings at the same speed points you chose so we can compare more accurately. Thanks again for checking this!
Thx guys...maybe some non mixed results from Larry can help us here. I would try a tank of winter blend to see the difference if the knock return wasn't so bad.
Found out the distributors name, Coorigan, of the e/85 at BP here. Guy said he would know the brand next time for me.
Rich
Some observations from last night
LTFT1-------LTFT2-------Conditions
3.9-----------2.7----------idle
8.9-----------6.5----------50mph
8.9-----------6.5----------70mph
0---------- -3.5---------high vac/throttle lift off
No WOT test
Readings decrease under moderate acceleration
My gut is telling me to look for a small vacuum leak. I'm almost positive these LTFT readings are creeping up because my recollection is that when I started with Torque a long time ago, that they were up and down both sides of zero by 1 or 2 points. Not sure though....my memory could be playing tricks on me!
On the winter fuel issue next tank I'll try Mobil 93 and see what my KR looks like with that brand.
Makes me feel like I'm living up to my name comparing readings Larry, a bit "rich"....thanks for the data
Rich
Quote from: Larrylu on October 23, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
Some observations from last night
LTFT1-------LTFT2-------Conditions
3.9-----------2.7----------idle
8.9-----------6.5----------50mph
8.9-----------6.5----------70mph
0---------- -3.5---------high vac/throttle lift off
No WOT test
Readings decrease under moderate acceleration
My gut is telling me to look for a small vacuum leak. I'm almost positive these LTFT readings are creeping up because my recollection is that when I started with Torque a long time ago, that they were up and down both sides of zero by 1 or 2 points. Not sure though....my memory could be playing tricks on me!
On the winter fuel issue next tank I'll try Mobil 93 and see what my KR looks like with that brand.
Larry my trims are similar to yours. I do not believe you have a vacuum leak. The only time I've been around zero for my trims is stock. I believe The car is compensating for the higher fuel requirement of being tuned...
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 23, 2014, 11:31:00 AM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 23, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
Some observations from last night
LTFT1-------LTFT2-------Conditions
3.9-----------2.7----------idle
8.9-----------6.5----------50mph
8.9-----------6.5----------70mph
0---------- -3.5---------high vac/throttle lift off
No WOT test
Readings decrease under moderate acceleration
My gut is telling me to look for a small vacuum leak. I'm almost positive these LTFT readings are creeping up because my recollection is that when I started with Torque a long time ago, that they were up and down both sides of zero by 1 or 2 points. Not sure though....my memory could be playing tricks on me!
On the winter fuel issue next tank I'll try Mobil 93 and see what my KR looks like with that brand.
Larry my trims are similar to yours. I do not believe you have a vacuum leak. The only time I've been around zero for my trims is stock. I believe The car is compensating for the higher fuel requirement of being tuned...
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That's some good news! A much more pleasant theory than mine. Thank you for that info.
So fuel trims are still being calculated off the stock baseline? That would indeed make sense :thumb:
I don't know for sure on this car but with my GTP fuel trims were calculated based on tables for expected airflow readings among other variables. That car was MAF based and the Taurus is MAP but the principle is the same. We would have to tweak the tables to get the values back to zero. That was important on the GTP because the car would use one of the long term trim cells at WOT and if it was negative it would subtract fuel. Thankfully the Taurus has a wideband to measure the air fuel ratio so the car just adjusts the trims as it needs to...no real reason on this car to have them at zero that I can see. Unless you go beyond what the car can correct for and/or the fuel pumps can keep up with...then bad things can happen. Again though without knowing how all the tables interact and if the tuners are changing any of them I can't be sure. That said I don't worry about trims unless they are waaay out there. I will be interested to see how the guys running ethanol mixes do in really cold weather. The air is denser and requires more fuel...as long as the pump keeps up I guess we are good!
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I'm running the slight mix (16-18%) in 34* - 38* in the morning here. No significant changes in the LTFT, AFR, or FRP...yet. Car is running smoother and pulls harder than it has since we purchased. Quite impressed with what this small dose has done. KR readings are near impossible to come by. An occasional lift reading of .8 or 1 that I still haven't visually caught.
Rich
I am definitely going to have to at least try this. I'm impressed with your results. I just wish I didn't have to go to two different gas stations to fill up. I can only get 93 at BP and the stations In use don't have E85.
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 25, 2014, 08:59:11 AM
I am definitely going to have to at least try this. I'm impressed with your results. I just wish I didn't have to go to two different gas stations to fill up. I can only get 93 at BP and the stations In use don't have E85.
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I searched around my area and found a BP that supplies both. It is 10 miles away, but I use it as an excuse to go for a cruise now.
Remember to ask the manager at BP, or at least the one who orders the fuel (they seem to be way more informative ) if they are a "branded" fuel supplier. If not branded their fuel can be very inconsistent allowing them to purchase from multiple sources.
2 gallon mix I've been using makes the calculation real easy. Each 1/4 tank is a half gallon of e/85.
Rich
Thanks. I will have to keep my eyes peeled!
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 25, 2014, 10:50:05 AM
Thanks. I will have to keep my eyes peeled!
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My wife googled BP station with e/85...as I to was on the look out...maybe my frustrating texts to her after pulling into many BP's helped this along^-^
Rich
Anyone try this to see how accurate it is? http://www.e85locator.net/E85locations.html (http://www.e85locator.net/E85locations.html)
Another site, looking specifically at Minneapolis,
http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/E85/Minnesota/Minneapolis/ (http://www.altfuelprices.com/stations/E85/Minnesota/Minneapolis/)
Map from the link on page above:
http://www.altfuelprices.com/station_map.php (http://www.altfuelprices.com/station_map.php)
I can tell you all how supply and distribution works. I am an operator at a distribution terminal which supplies Shell gasoline.
And using MSDS for quality control is ridiculous. At the least you need what's called a C of A, or certificate of analysis. But even that is potentially useless. Using a C of A to gauge the quality of ethanol in your gas tank would be like using the nutrition information on the side of a cereal box as results for blood work.
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on October 25, 2014, 11:31:02 AM
I can tell you all how supply and distribution works. I am an operator at a distribution terminal which supplies Shell gasoline.
And using MSDS for quality control is ridiculous. At the least you need what's called a C of A, or certificate of analysis. But even that is potentially useless. Using a C of A to gauge the quality of ethanol in your gas tank would be like using the nutrition information on the side of a cereal box as results for blood work.
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Well, that was helpful.....
instead if telling us how ridiculous we are, why don't you tell us why these things aren't accurate in calculating our blends.
Furthermore, Speedways msds sheets have been spot on at least with regard to quantity.
As far as quality, who knows, all I know is the car loves ot stock or otherwise.
I gave up offering my two cents! It was going ignored, as it always does on Web forums, because more often than not people get their feelings hurt when they learn gas is gas.
I work in supply and distribution. My insight beyond those areas is far more limited. I'm no chemical engineer.
I haven't paid close attention to how you are calculating your blends.
How does an MSDS provide any insight as to how to mix your blends?
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on October 25, 2014, 12:38:48 PM
I gave up offering my two cents! It was going ignored, as it always does on Web forums, because more of then than not people get their feelings hurt when they learn gas is gas.
I haven't paid close attention to how you are calculating your blends.
How does an MSDS provide any insight as to how to mix your blends?
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We love info here. Regardless if it falls in line with our assumptions or info we already have.
Ignoring was not the case as I eagerly await the suggested info you could provide still.
Any light shedding on the "branded" label as the guy stated it requires more testing and not just filling up from the cheapest distributor at the time and calling it so n so's gas.
Rich
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on October 25, 2014, 12:38:48 PM
I gave up offering my two cents! It was going ignored, as it always does on Web forums, because more often than not people get their feelings hurt when they learn gas is gas.
I work in supply and distribution. My insight beyond those areas is far more limited. I'm no chemical engineer.
I haven't paid close attention to how you are calculating your blends.
How does an MSDS provide any insight as to how to mix your blends?
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It clearly states the ratio of E to straight gas for both summer and winter blends.
For Speedway the state 85/15 for summer and 75/15 for winter.
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on October 25, 2014, 12:38:48 PM
I gave up offering my two cents! It was going ignored, as it always does on Web forums, because more often than not people get their feelings hurt when they learn gas is gas.
I work in supply and distribution. My insight beyond those areas is far more limited. I'm no chemical engineer.
I haven't paid close attention to how you are calculating your blends.
How does an MSDS provide any insight as to how to mix your blends?
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Yup, I'd love some insight as I have used nothing but Shell for years.
I will say that I quit having fuel injection issues with all of my vehicles since I did. (Others swear the same)
My DSMs wouldn't worth a s*** on BP gas in the early 90's
But that is a static figure, isn't it? Or are you just referring to a time table for their blend periods?
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on October 25, 2014, 12:56:09 PM
But that is a static figure, isn't it? Or are you just referring to a time table for their blend periods?
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Correct, and it also doesn't tell me when the switch happens specifically, just the summer and winter designation.
Usually the only way I can tell is when my fuel trims drop.
There are testers for ethanol content, I believe, not very cheap, but affordable for occasional use. No similar kits for octane evaluation though. 4DR I think offers the ethanol kits on his site?
IHG, any insight you provide is helpful. We just need to figure out how to integrate it with our end-user experience and technical/research data available out there, public or not. Tough job :)
??????
Rich
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/26/83d6ab5cc981dc20019655114114a7ed.jpg)
Think those are the highest power #'s yet recorded on torque. Zero knock also!!!
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 26, 2014, 03:39:18 PM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/26/83d6ab5cc981dc20019655114114a7ed.jpg)
Think those are the highest power #'s yet recorded on torque. Zero knock also!!!
Rich
That's on custom blend E16 right? Great numbers and a nice gauge layout. I've now located my nearest E85 source. Gulf station about 2 miles from the house. I'll try adding 2 gal of E85 on my next fill up and see what happens to my KR, LTFTs, FRPs and gas mileage. It's either that or run a 91 octane, 3BAR version of 4+. I really like 4X and I hate to switch it out in the winter but I just can't close my eyes to seeing KR spikes between 4 and 5 even if it's not at WOT. Just feels like I'm running too close to the edge for comfort.
Thx Larry. 16-18% as I'm still in search for the supplier of the e/85. I guess now, have read differing opinions now, that some e/85 may take a "winter blend" mix hit also(regional mixes). 2 gallon per tank mix really makes it easy to figure out the required amount.
That high KR was what I could not deal with either. First thought my car was hurt before confirming the winter gas arrival. Whew!!!
Really hope the guys not monitoring knock out there see this info and adjust accordingly. 93 tune + winter blend + not fully warming up car = a considerable amount of knock I can assume pretty confidently.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 26, 2014, 04:27:30 PM
Thx Larry. 16-18% as I'm still in search for the supplier of the e/85. I guess now, have read differing opinions now, that some e/85 may take a "winter blend" mix hit also(regional mixes). 2 gallon per tank mix really makes it easy to figure out the required amount.
That high KR was what I could not deal with either. First thought my car was hurt before confirming the winter gas arrival. Whew!!!
Really hope the guys not monitoring knock out there see this info and adjust accordingly. 93 tune + winter blend + not fully warming up car = a considerable amount of knock I can assume pretty confidently.
Rich
Can you elaborate on your suspected connection/rationale to the not fully warmed up and the KR so I can check that on mine also? Of course I never push my car till at full operating temps, but I have never been able to connect my winter gas spike readings to any driving style, temperature or situation. With the exception of my random tranny glitch causing a super spike readings of as high as 7.
Had to run one of the boys to school the other morning(bus showed up, well flew by 10 minutes early)and not fully warmed up the slight throttle that usually scores negative return was pulling timing. Pulled over and let car warm fully and it was gone. Albeit a short and only one time experience I have not tried to replicate. Combine that with previous winter blend issues and I can only assume it's not good.
Rich
Pretty anxious to see you guys that do monitor try this out. I had no baseline #'s to compare my now watched fuel related gauges to.
Rich
That's an easy situation for me to duplicate. Can't wait to try it. That could very well be where my high readings are coming from. I just have not caught it and made the connection. I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for the tip!
Quote from: Larrylu on October 26, 2014, 06:51:39 PM
That's an easy situation for me to duplicate. Can't wait to try it. That could very well be where my high readings are coming from. I just have not caught it and made the connection. I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for the tip!
Eagerly waiting on the findings! As my lone experience is hardly "evidence".
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 26, 2014, 06:23:19 PM
Had to run one of the boys to school the other morning(bus showed up, well flew by 10 minutes early)and not fully warmed up the slight throttle that usually scores negative return was pulling timing. Pulled over and let car warm fully and it was gone. Albeit a short and only one time experience I have not tried to replicate. Combine that with previous winter blend issues and I can only assume it's not good.
Rich
I don't believe that is an issue of any kind. I think that is the ECU is protecting the engine until all is up to temp. Boost is always limited as well.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 26, 2014, 08:50:13 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 26, 2014, 06:23:19 PM
Had to run one of the boys to school the other morning(bus showed up, well flew by 10 minutes early)and not fully warmed up the slight throttle that usually scores negative return was pulling timing. Pulled over and let car warm fully and it was gone. Albeit a short and only one time experience I have not tried to replicate. Combine that with previous winter blend issues and I can only assume it's not good.
Rich
I don't believe that is an issue of any kind. I think that is the ECU is protecting the engine until all is up to temp. Boost is always limited as well.
Thx for the reassuring comments.
Stated for extra warnings to all, for the incoming frigid temps.
Torque and the scantool proving to be one of my favorite mods so far.
Rich
Well here is something new. I actually caught the positive 4.5 right as it was happening. Not a mystery any more. It was lugging at moderate throttle. Not enough throttle for a down shift but enough to get low low vac or maybe a little boost and voila 4 positive KR. I nailed it right after and at WOT no KR or even a little negative. So I think it's octane deprived winter gas at part throttle lugging.
Quote from: Larrylu on October 27, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
Well here is something new. I actually caught the positive 4.5 right as it was happening. Not a mystery any more. It was lugging at moderate throttle. Not enough throttle for a down shift but enough to get low low vac or maybe a little boost and voila 4 positive KR. I nailed it right after and at WOT no KR or even a little negative. So I think it's octane deprived winter gas at part throttle lugging.
I can jive with that.
Rich
So, even with running a higher E content, this issue is present? wasinger?
Not present here...I can only get +KR readings when car is not up to full operating temps, and during a WOT lift I get an occasional +.8 or +1...other than that no +KR at all.
I did however experience this same example of timing being pulled quite regularly with the winter blend.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 27, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 27, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
Well here is something new. I actually caught the positive 4.5 right as it was happening. Not a mystery any more. It was lugging at moderate throttle. Not enough throttle for a down shift but enough to get low low vac or maybe a little boost and voila 4 positive KR. I nailed it right after and at WOT no KR or even a little negative. So I think it's octane deprived winter gas at part throttle lugging.
I can jive with that.
Rich
I am seeing the same thing. Haven't tried the ethanol yet..
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
I will add to this. Thought my car was feeling sluggish so I did a 1:12 gallon ratio of e85/93 and it woke up the beast.
I will continue to use this ratio and monitor it, this winter gas really is garbage.
Quote from: Larrylu on October 27, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
Well here is something new. I actually caught the positive 4.5 right as it was happening. Not a mystery any more. It was lugging at moderate throttle. Not enough throttle for a down shift but enough to get low low vac or maybe a little boost and voila 4 positive KR. I nailed it right after and at WOT no KR or even a little negative. So I think it's octane deprived winter gas at part throttle lugging.
This is the only time I see +kr also. This exact scenario.
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost 3bar
more to come.....
I pretty much see no KR, random 1.5 here or there normally after a hard shift.
Almost always negative kr and pegs to -5 quick.
Almost makes me want to grow a little patch of corn in the garden next year. Little show of support....;D
Rich
So now I know I got some company....what to do....switch to a 91 octane tune for the winter, or do a little custom blend. My tank is low so it's time to decide. The allure of a custom blend is undeniable!
FoMoCo's mini brewery :D
Says no e/20 - e/85 in the fuel door...still within parameters with a small mix...
If anyone tries the 91 tune, that would add to the info here though.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 27, 2014, 11:17:35 PM
Says no e/20 - e/85 in the fuel door...still within parameters with a small mix...
If anyone tries the 91 tune, that would add to the info here though.
Rich
I've switched to my 91 tune but that was after my Bluetooth adapter took a crap.
I have been watching timing advance with my x4. Seems to be dropping less with the 91 tune running 93 gas.
I'm stuck with 91 octane here in CA, with my 25% mix of E85 I'm at about 93.8 octane. More than likely going to experiment with meth once I get these downpipes put on.
I was running a 93 tune but also stuck with 91 octane. So i blended with e85. After the track on sunday I reverted back to 2 bar and 91 though for the winter, I may as well save some money because the roads are brutal here in the winter
Quote from: glock-coma on October 28, 2014, 12:22:20 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 27, 2014, 11:17:35 PM
Says no e/20 - e/85 in the fuel door...still within parameters with a small mix...
If anyone tries the 91 tune, that would add to the info here though.
Rich
I've switched to my 91 tune but that was after my Bluetooth adapter took a crap.
I have been watching timing advance with my x4. Seems to be dropping less with the 91 tune running 93 gas.
Thx for the added info. Are you able to monitor knock with the mycal? Add custom PID'S too?
Rich
Edit: meant the x4...oops
Quote from: SHOmanMike84 on October 28, 2014, 12:55:39 AM
I'm stuck with 91 octane here in CA, with my 25% mix of E85 I'm at about 93.8 octane. More than likely going to experiment with meth once I get these downpipes put on.
Are you monitoring with anything Mike?
Rich
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 28, 2014, 01:28:51 AM
I was running a 93 tune but also stuck with 91 octane. So i blended with e85. After the track on sunday I reverted back to 2 bar and 91 though for the winter, I may as well save some money because the roads are brutal here in the winter
Looks like that blend helped you out with the killer times you threw down in some thick DA #'s.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 06:49:06 AM
Quote from: SHOmanMike84 on October 28, 2014, 12:55:39 AM
I'm stuck with 91 octane here in CA, with my 25% mix of E85 I'm at about 93.8 octane. More than likely going to experiment with meth once I get these downpipes put on.
Are you monitoring with anything Mike?
Rich
Yes indeed, I go back and forth with Dash Command and Torque Pro.
Well I did it...although I'm a little light on the E85 at the moment. I used an E-85 calculator and guessed at how much fuel I had in my tank based on the miles left reading and I must have been a bit off so I only got 1 of the 2 gallons of fuel in my car...so I'm probably only around E12 LOL I will adjust next time accordingly - will still be Interesting to see what happens as I haven't had time to drive it yet.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 28, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
Well I did it...although I'm a little light on the E85 at the moment. I used an E-85 calculator and guessed at how much fuel I had in my tank based on the miles left reading and I must have been a bit off so I only got 1 of the 2 gallons of fuel in my car...so I'm probably only around E12 LOL I will adjust next time accordingly - will still be Interesting to see what happens as I haven't had time to drive it yet.
Don't know if it would matter much, probably depends on how far you'd have to travel to from e/85 to normal gas, but I put my e/85 splash in first as to mix it better.
Can't wait to hear the results!
Rich
Its two gas stations but only 3 blocks apart. I may give that a shot...
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
If you are running Torque, it will show fuel left in tank a a percentage. Just make sure the car is flat then it's easy to calculate.
I am definitely running Torque. :) I forgot about that. Thanks!
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Just a little hick planet called Upstate NY. At least I can get what's labeled 93 octane so it could be worse!
#immediateimprovement just ran home and even Tue gallon I put in did awesome! Max KR at part throttle was 1. Before I was getting 2 to 3.5 consistently. Trims and fuel pressure are all good. You guys rock! Can't wait to mix it properly.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
I think you have started a mini-flight-to-quality, Rich :) There is some hope for Gen 4.1!
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Just a little hick planet called Upstate NY. At least I can get what's labeled 93 octane so it could be worse!
Optimism...I like it.
Rich
Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 28, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
#immediateimprovement just ran home and even Tue gallon I put in did awesome! Max KR at part throttle was 1. Before I was getting 2 to 3.5 consistently. Trims and fuel pressure are all good. You guys rock! Can't wait to mix it properly.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Great news!
Eases the mind a bit for sure.
Rich
Quote from: SHOdded on October 28, 2014, 05:51:18 PM
I think you have started a mini-flight-to-quality, Rich :) There is some hope for Gen 4.1!
Haha!
After seeing the info about "same" fuel system this seemed like the best route.
Gonna have to ask FoMoCoSHO if there's a 1-800 number for corn addiction.
Rich
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Just a little hick planet called Upstate NY. At least I can get what's labeled 93 octane so it could be worse!
Sounds like you need to bring along a 5 gallon can to store some when you find it.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 29, 2014, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Just a little hick planet called Upstate NY. At least I can get what's labeled 93 octane so it could be worse!
Sounds like you need to bring along a 5 gallon can to store some when you find it.
Rich
LOL!! I bought a 5 gal pail to be dedicated for my E85 yesterday! No fooling. You either have ESP or you are stalking me. Unreal!
Like some mentioned here to a similiar post,wouldnt torco satisfy the hestation and lack of performance due to the winterblend gas instead of E85 which both you have to mix and add if E85 is harder to come by,brings me back to hurricane Sandy years ago,we had to drive around looking for gas.
Quote from: Larrylu on October 29, 2014, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 29, 2014, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 05:12:26 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on October 28, 2014, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: Larrylu on October 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM
I went out shopping for E85 today and so far I drew a blank. The place I found on the Internet said they took it out 2 years ago. I'm still following leads. Hopefully one of them will prove fruitful. In the meantime I filled up with Mobil 93 for the first time and reset my KR. I'm not expecting any major difference but it's worth checking while I hunt E85. Kind of funny when I ask many of the station employees if they know where I could buy E85, I often get that blank stare. They don't even know what I'm talking about.
What planet are you searching for this said rare earth liquid substance? :P
Good luck!
Rich
Just a little hick planet called Upstate NY. At least I can get what's labeled 93 octane so it could be worse!
Sounds like you need to bring along a 5 gallon can to store some when you find it.
Rich
LOL!! I bought a 5 gal pail to be dedicated for my E85 yesterday! No fooling. You either have ESP or you are stalking me. Unreal!
Heavy traffic ahead please take alt route...haha :P
Rich
Quote from: ZSHO on October 29, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Like some mentioned here to a similiar post,wouldnt torco satisfy the hestation and lack of performance due to the winterblend gas instead of E85 which both you have to mix and add if E85 is harder to come by,brings me back to hurricane Sandy years ago,we had to drive around looking for gas.
Definitely an option. With the high concentration it is, seems you could easily be off on your mixing causing issues at low boost scenarios (rough idle and start up). Those are my amateur thoughts.
Rich
Quote from: ZSHO on October 29, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Like some mentioned here to a similiar post,wouldnt torco satisfy the hestation and lack of performance due to the winterblend gas instead of E85 which both you have to mix and add if E85 is harder to come by,brings me back to hurricane Sandy years ago,we had to drive around looking for gas.
Good to see you round these parts again. Hope the recovery is well underway.
Rich
Quote from: ZSHO on October 29, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Like some mentioned here to a similiar post,wouldnt torco satisfy the hestation and lack of performance due to the winterblend gas instead of E85 which both you have to mix and add if E85 is harder to come by,brings me back to hurricane Sandy years ago,we had to drive around looking for gas.
You could but there are some properties of E-85 that IDK the torco possesses. One is the enhanced charge cooling and the other has to do with the actual octane of e-85 when its direct injected that its actually much higher than the stated number. IIRC one paper that I posted says it's upwards of 160, hence my suspicion why so little seems to help so much.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 29, 2014, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 29, 2014, 09:13:50 AM
Like some mentioned here to a similiar post,wouldnt torco satisfy the hestation and lack of performance due to the winterblend gas instead of E85 which both you have to mix and add if E85 is harder to come by,brings me back to hurricane Sandy years ago,we had to drive around looking for gas.
You could but there are some properties of E-85 that IDK the torco possesses. One is the enhanced charge cooling and the other has to do with the actual octane of e-85 when its direct injected that its actually much higher than the stated number. IIRC one paper that I posted says it's upwards of 160, hence my suspicion why so little seems to help so much.
That may explain why even 1 gallon has had a large positive effect. My trims adjusted now and I have zero knock. It rocks!
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061 (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061) saw an article today regarding E85 and was impressed by members having such positive results,hope this adds more detail twards the positive outcome.
I have tried Torco just to see for myself, and it did what I expected. KR reading dropped dramatically .....worked fine! For me though it's way way to expensive for an every tankful supplement. One or two gallons of E85 replacing one or two gallons of 93 octane E10 in a normal fill up would be a net savings even if you factor in the slight decrease in gas mileage the blended gas should deliver. Get to have your cake and eat it too!
Quote from: Larrylu on October 29, 2014, 12:14:05 PM
I have tried Torco just to see for myself, and it did what I expected. KR reading dropped dramatically .....worked fine! For me though it's way way to expensive for an every tankful supplement. One or two gallons of E85 replacing one or two gallons of 93 octane E10 in a normal fill up would be a net savings even if you factor in the slight decrease in gas mileage the blended gas should deliver. Get to have your cake and eat it too!
That's exactly how I see it too. Anyone come up with a perfect ratio? I'm thinking of trying 2 gallons this time around in a full tank, this is what I came out with using the calculator at the bottom link:
2 gallons e85 + 17 gallons 93 Octane = 94.3 Octane with 17.9% ethanol (or E18)
2.5 gallons e85 + 16.5 gallons 93 Octane = 94.6 Octane with 19.9% ethanol (or E20)
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
E15 is the limit for gen 4.1, per Ford, right? I would go higher very cautiously. Max 10% variance that engineers usually build in.
Quote from: SHOdded on October 29, 2014, 12:40:31 PM
E15 is the limit for gen 4.1, per Ford, right? I would go higher very cautiously. Max 10% variance that engineers usually build in.
The gas cap says no E20 so that's what I've been going off of with no ill affects. I'm going to try 2 gallons to a tank which should put me at E18, though if you wanted to test the limits it would be 2.5 gallons of E85 and rest 93 octane which would be E20.
I think 2 gallons of E85 might be golden number, gives you some cushion room and it's quite easy to gauge.
Are you taking in to account the winter blend of the e85 as well? Here it's actually e75 this time of year, and what about the 93? Is it 93 anymore and is it non ethanol 93?
I just did a calculation based off of e75 (100 octane) and 93 with 10% ethanol which would give you that 93.7 octane and only 16.8 ethanol or e17 so lower than your initial estimate, which is good. I think it's crazy that the sho has a bigger tank than the explorer lol
Quote from: Airbornemaikai on October 29, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
I just did a calculation based off of e75 (100 octane) and 93 with 10% ethanol which would give you that 93.7 octane and only 16.8 ethanol or e17 so lower than your initial estimate, which is good. I think it's crazy that the sho has a bigger tank than the explorer lol
This is what I was figuring also.
Rich
Quote from: Spartn27 on October 29, 2014, 01:00:49 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 29, 2014, 12:40:31 PM
E15 is the limit for gen 4.1, per Ford, right? I would go higher very cautiously. Max 10% variance that engineers usually build in.
The gas cap says no E20 so that's what I've been going off of with no ill affects. I'm going to try 2 gallons to a tank which should put me at E18, though if you wanted to test the limits it would be 2.5 gallons of E85 and rest 93 octane which would be E20.
I think 2 gallons of E85 might be golden number, gives you some cushion room and it's quite easy to gauge.
My exact thinking when starting this experiment.
Rich
I really wish I knew how to develop a Torque plug in. It seems like it would be relatively easy to have it tell you how much E85 to put in to hit a certain ratio if you give it enough variables and had it use the %full PID...dang.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 29, 2014, 02:36:33 PM
I really wish I knew how to develop a Torque plug in. It seems like it would be relatively easy to have it tell you how much E85 to put in to hit a certain ratio if you give it enough variables and had it use the %full PID...dang.
This is your expertise, guru of the tech stuff....thx again on the PID'S!!!!
Rich
I thought I read of an alcohol sensing functionality....maybe I'm mistaken
Quote from: Larrylu on October 29, 2014, 02:43:11 PM
I thought I read of an alcohol sensing functionality....maybe I'm mistaken
There is a PID description in there for Torque but the SHO doesn't have the actual sensor so we are out of luck as far as I can tell. I know I can't bring it up...
Modern cars no longer use alcohol sensors.
Several weeks ago I switched from Sunoco 93 to Gulf 93 and I saw my KR go from 4.5 to 2 and I was pleased. Then after several consistent tanks like throwing a switch my KR jumped back up to 4.5 on the Gulf. Thinking maybe it's the winter gas so not expecting any magic difference I tried a tank of Mobil 93. This is my best yet with so far a KR of 0.8. I also have found a source for E85 about 6 miles away. So I brought a 5 gallon can home with me for future blending experiments. Frankly with the readings I'm getting right now with Mobil 93, I'm not going to rush into blending. For the time being I'll sit tight and keep an eye on the Knock Retard.
Nice! Is the Mobil price about the same? What was the e85 going for?
I never checked the price on the Mobil but I imagine it's close to the Gulf as both of those stations are not price leaders. One of the better but not cheapest in my area was the Sunoco I used exclusively for years. The Sunoco is around $3.80 so I would guess the Mobil is still under $4.00. The E85 however was selling for $2.80. Such a bargain.....
Sounds like you ran into a bad supply of gas or something?
Good to hear you found some quality fuel and the elusive e/85.
Rich
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/30/3d16b6fb66ceffa6011c167371b6abef.jpg)
Car seems to smile a bit when we pull up to the e/85 pump!
Rich
Especially when you're sneaking in that E85 shot :D
It's funny how the clerk was sort of rude when attempting to get my BP rewards card to work for the little $5 splash of e/85. Then respectfully had no problem when I returned to fill up shortly after.
Rich
Finally blended in enough E85 to hit about an E16 ratio and I am getting even better results. Still no knock and the throttle response at part throttle is noticeably improved. It just zips right along. I will continue to monitor it and see how she does...
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Hey guys just some advice, to get a good estimate of how much gas you currently have in the tank divide your 'Miles to E' by your average miles per gallon. I used this to determine how many gallons of e85 I needed to hit e20 which is what I've been running 2 tanks so far with great results. The engine really sings and shifts are improved.
The big girl is just vicious with these 40 degree ambients....The throttle response is amazing, like my foot has a direct connection to the motor. Power? Hell yeah, 70 mph in the rain last night breaking tires loose.
As an added bonus, looking like I'm gonna wind up at 21 MPG this tank.
What gear were you in, FoMoCo?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 01, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
The big girl is just vicious with these 40 degree ambients....The throttle response is amazing, like my foot has a direct connection to the motor. Power? Hell yeah, 70 mph in the rain last night breaking tires loose.
As an added bonus, looking like I'm gonna wind up at 21 MPG this tank.
NICE!!!
The wife driving home last night was playing around and breaking em loose at 50 quite easily in the wetness.
Rich
Quote from: SHOdded on November 01, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
What gear were you in, FoMoCo?
Cruising at 72, downshifted to third I'm assuming to pass.
I was unexpectedly busy so I wasn't looking at my wall o'gauges.
How accurate is the fuel % equation in torque? Does it hit 0% when there are still 2 gallons left in the tank like the fuel gauge in the car does or is 0% out of fuel? If it works properly using it would be the best way to ensure proper blending otherwise it could result in improper blending.
Mine seems to be about a gallon off. If I use the gauge and an E85 calculator I have to lie about how much gas is in the tank.
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So my resusts of 2 stroke oil are turning out to be awesome. I'll get some proof this weekend on a 400 mile trip.
Yay! Had us all on pins & needles with this little "experiment". Mo details, mo bettah :D
Quote from: wasinger3000 on November 07, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
So my resusts of 2 stroke oil are turning out to be awesome. I'll get some proof this weekend on a 400 mile trip.
I used to use that in my Silverado, worked like a champ....
X2 on that...
Rich
Quote from: wasinger3000 on November 07, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
So my resusts of 2 stroke oil are turning out to be awesome. I'll get some proof this weekend on a 400 mile trip.
Think this would mix well with a full synthetic like Mobil1? Also what brand do you use?
Thanks and enjoy the trip!
Quote from: Spartn27 on November 08, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on November 07, 2014, 12:59:14 PM
So my resusts of 2 stroke oil are turning out to be awesome. I'll get some proof this weekend on a 400 mile trip.
Think this would mix well with a full synthetic like Mobil1? Also what brand do you use?
Thanks and enjoy the trip!
I'm using Royal purple synthetic 2 stroke oil. So far I found I need to cut my dosage back. For the first 160 miles there were hills that would require around 4-6 psi of boost in 6th gear. On those hills I was getting knock around 2-3°. So I filled the car with 8 gallons of 91 (all I could fit). On the last leg of the trip the knock was no longer there on the hill climbs. So 1 ounce for every 5 gallon is to much. I'm going to cut the dose in half next tank.
Look forward to your next report, wasinger :D
I was running 2 gallons of E85 and the rest of the tank with 93. Went to fill up yesterday and I did 1 gallon E85 and 13.4 gallons of 93. Driving today my learned octane ratio on torque is about 106 but off the line sometimes my knock says -0.2 and others it says 4.5. Whats up with this I'm running a 93 tune so I shouldn't have any knock with E85 should I? Also if I accelerate hard in 5th or 6th gear (S mode and slowly put pedal to the floor) I get about 3-4 knock which I think should be normal, let me know if it isn't.
Hmmm. I keep watching learned octane ratio and even mixing it never changes. What are your trims running at?
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on November 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Hmmm. I keep watching learned octane ratio and even mixing it never changes. What are your trims running at?
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Still not sure exactly what trims do or how I'm supposed to report that to you. Will the max value always be WOT or will it always be idle? Do i just have to stare at my tablet while I'm accelerating WOT because I don't really want to do that.
As for the LOR I have had values from 99 to 107 and I have only used it since I started blending.
Do you have an OBDII/Elm.327 device? Do you have an android device? Load Torque software on it and log. You don't have to keep an eye on fuel trims, you can look at it in the log once you get home.
Fuel trims let you know if the car is adding or subtracting fuel to maintain the right air fuel ratio. If the number is too big you could be running out of fuel or have a vacuum leak. I never see knock at WOT with or without E85 so you may have something else going on?
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I had the same situation as sunwolf. Getting knock on heavy load% in 5th -6th gear.
I sent Torrie a log of load,rpm and knock and he corrected it.
Since the tune update I've seen 0 + knock. I'm running 93 gas in my 91 tune right now.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on November 08, 2014, 04:04:42 PM
Fuel trims let you know if the car is adding or subtracting fuel to maintain the right air fuel ratio. If the number is too big you could be running out of fuel or have a vacuum leak. I never see knock at WOT with or without E85 so you may have something else going on?
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Its not exactly WOT its going 70 and locking it in 6th gear by using S instead of D and pressing the pedal all the way down slowly. It gives a good impression of how much torque the car has, at least in 5th gear, because once the boost builds it is still fast no matter what speed you start from.
Did you just start monitoring recently?
Knock sensor wires checked?
Rich
By locking it in gear when it would usually downshift doesn't sound like the most beneficial thing for the car. Almost replicating glock-coma's, if I remember correctly, non downshift syndrome.
Did you use that BP we talked about?
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on November 08, 2014, 09:27:50 PM
By locking it in gear when it would usually downshift doesn't sound like the most beneficial thing for the car. Almost replicating glock-coma's, if I remember correctly, non downshift syndrome.
Did you use that BP we talked about?
Rich
Yes I used that BP. I did 2 tanks of blend and now I'm running a tank of 93 to see the difference.
The ECU doesn't fuel trim at WOT or under load or before the engine reaches operating temp. It falls back to a predetermined set of fueling tables, ignoring O2S data, also known as closed loop operarion.
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on November 10, 2014, 01:28:45 PM
The ECU doesn't fuel trim at WOT or under load or before the engine reaches operating temp. It falls back to a predetermined set of fueling tables, ignoring O2S data, also known as closed loop operarion.
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Mine does not go open loop during WOT.
Only goes into open loop for a few seconds at startup and during decel fuel cutoff during an off throttle lift.
The behavior is the same stock or tuned.
Can you make corrections to the second sentence? I am not understanding what you mean.
Anybody with a pre 13 model want to verify?
Seems rather risky, if 02S sensor data is inaccurate, or if there's sensor malfunction.
I've heard of total open loop tuning, by aftermarket solutions. Never the opposite. Especially by OEM.
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Sorry, hopefully its clearer now , on the phone and on the run at work....
Is this based on data a scan device is reporting?
Can anybody else report? Specifically pre 2013?
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on November 10, 2014, 07:12:44 PM
Is this based on data a scan device is reporting?
Can anybody else report? Specifically pre 2013?
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Torque, Dashcommand, and OBLlink all show closed loop during WOT.
This seems to be coming together for me now...
They must really use the WB 02S for feedback control under heavy load/WOT. And it ties in with the curious choice for a speed density control method. This would explain the appreciable gains from blending ethanol as well, on OE tuning, whereas vehicles which do not utilize feedback control under WOT MUST be tuned for it. Crazy.
Does this date back to 2010 for all 3.5 EB engines, or was there a change in design for 13 plus?
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Any updates?
I guess nobody else finds this as interesting as I do? Lol
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Very interesting.
My popcorn is on the ready.
Rich
I added fuel status from torque (monitors closed loop vs open and will see what it does) should have results shortly.
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The car was floored and was in closed loop the entire time all the way through 2nd gear. Which is what I expected due to the wideband o2 sensor.
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There are plenty of WB 02S equipped cars out there which aren't arranged from the factory with a control schematic, utilizing 02S feedback for control loop under WOT.
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Fair enough. I just think it makes sense that it uses it since it is on the car.
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The Ecoboost platform does go closed loop at WOT.
Closed loop allows the ECM to learn, compensate, and/or save the engine.
Open loop relies on pre factored tables and when pushing our platform could be dangerous to the engine, since there would be no way for the ECM to learn or compensate for out of range parameters.
Well, according to sources here, it doesn't "go" into CL control. It stays in CL almost continously. From what FoMo reported, it only utilizes open loop when the engine is cold, before sensors have heated up. Isn't that correct?
"Save" the engine, assuming 02S feedback data is accurate, and the sensor is reporting at near perfect accuracy. Sensors foul and lose accuracy over use. Is there a failsafe? How does the ECU know 02S is reporting accurate feedback? If there is detection, it has got to fall back to open loop control as a means of protection. I guess in this manner I don't see how closed loop control under heavy load can be considered something safe.
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on November 11, 2014, 09:09:04 PM
Well, according to sources here, it doesn't "go" into CL control. It stays in CL almost continously. From what FoMo reported, it only utilizes open loop when the engine is cold, before sensors have heated up. Isn't that correct?
"Save" the engine, assuming 02S feedback data is accurate, and the sensor is reporting at near perfect accuracy. Sensors foul and lose accuracy over use. Is there a failsafe? How does the ECU know 02S is reporting accurate feedback? If there is detection, it has got to fall back to open loop control as a means of protection. I guess in this manner I don't see how closed loop control under heavy load can be considered something safe.
I understood open loop was used for low load situations, and closed loop was used for high load situations. Perhaps that is a bit generic, but same concept...
Either way, I'd rather have the ECM continuously monitoring and adjusting to keep the vehicle in spec, as Mike B. discovered, the TB slams shut if the ECM thinks something is off....
I don't know how the wideband sensors are for long term accuracy, maybe they do degrade, I'm not sure...
Just read something on changing the WB o2's every 4-5 years on modified cars to be safe.
Rich
Change intervals...definitely something proposed in the aftermarket world, for tuning purposes. Cobb tuning told me years ago to replace the WB 02S in my MS6 before bringing in back to be tuned. It was fouled and reporting inaccurately. But, it's not like a maintenance item you see Ford place in the owners manual.
They do fail. Perhaps not as susceptible as sensors for engines past. But also, consider the inherent richness of DI burn. The soot on tailpipes? And I've seen discussion here of oil leaking past turbo seals and burning into the exhaust on the engines. These produce particles which can foul a sensor. Not to mention they can potentially just fail outright.
I can see the benefit of using feedback under load, say, if fuel pressure drops (for whatever reason) and is unable to maintain demand. In this scenerio, if the engine were at the mercy of open loop fueling, it could have catastrophic consequences. Definitely an advantage in that situation, to have the feedback. But, if a sensor is grossly inaccurate of fails outright under heavy load, it can have the same results! XD
Anyway, it is just surprising to see from an OEM. I wasn't aware this was taking place, or that the EB was utilizing it. Pretty sweet. It explains things that I never understood. For example, the gains on E, with stock tuning.
By the way, since I've seen the topic of discussion in here involve fuel brands, Shell is rolling out a new proprietary additive formulation. The conversion is taking place now. Not sure how it differs. But, seems important, considering the proprietary additives are the only thing which makes a blend stock gasoline "branded".
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Still coming out under V Power branding?
Unless I was lied to, the "branded " label assures certain levels are maintained also. Ethonal, additives, and can't remember the other I was told....
Rich
Quote from: SHOdded on November 12, 2014, 03:15:49 AM
Still coming out under V Power branding?
AFAIK, their marketing isn't changing.
V-Power was and still is what they call their super. All grades receive the same, "nitrogen enriched" additive. Their super just receives a much higher rate of additive than mid or reg. That's all that gives it its V-Power status. Their dosage rates on V-Power is quite high, compared to other branded supers, eg. Exxon, Chevron, etc..
Quote from: SHOnUup on November 12, 2014, 07:49:09 AM
Unless I was lied to, the "branded " label assures certain levels are maintained also. Ethonal, additives, and can't remember the other I was told....
Rich
Well, everybody strives to maintain both product quality and mandated concetrations. Quite often it's the same blendstock going into the Shell station as it is the mom n pop station across the street. It may have come from the same distribution terminal, out of the same tank, out of the same meter...
The difference was the additive - one received a high(er) dosage of a branded proprietary additive, the other received a "generic" or "unbranded" additive, which is typically injected at a concentration not much higher than federally mandated LAC, or lowest allowable concentration.
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I went back and looked over a technical bulletin I received from PQ group about the new additive - it is indeed a different formulation. I'm no chemist, so the changes are like mumbo jumbo to me. So, it remains unclear what effects the revised formulation might have in your engine.
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Thanks for the info IHG. Appreciate your knowledge in the area.
Rich
Playing armchair chemist ain't easy :) We need to set up some chemists on a cloud computing network to crack the additive code!
Any further updates, ecoboostsho? Still knock-free? An upcoming paper in SAE regarding the possible mitigation of the pre-ignition (PI)-triggered severe engine knocks at low engine speeds:
http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0084/ (http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0084/)
Addresses the possibility that minimizing oil contamination in the combustion chamber is the key.
I've been running a mix of E16 and that eliminates any knock under normal running except for an occasional blip. What I have been watching though is right before the car warms up even the lightest throttle can produce what looks like up to 7 degrees if knock. I'm talking barely any throttle...no lugging and on flat ground. This only happens with a coolant temp between 140 and 160 in 5th gear cruising steady state. As soon as the goes closed loop at around 160 it won't knock at all. I can reproduce it every time. I am stumped....it doesn't seem to hurt anything but I'm not thrilled about it.
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Possibly the PCM's (TB? drive-by-wire) reaction time is involved here, not fast enough to adjust to throttle input.
My 12 EB Flex does like the blend of E17. FP could not keep up -(
E/85 tester
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/qft-36-e85?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KEQiA6dGmBRC_3Mi-x_XywKsBEiQA1lcFP5RjHMKaJaCT_JihoYVah28ChdPVOupTIiec6OluAzIaAlIU8P8HAQ
Rich
Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 10, 2015, 07:59:04 PM
I've been running a mix of E16 and that eliminates any knock under normal running except for an occasional blip. What I have been watching though is right before the car warms up even the lightest throttle can produce what looks like up to 7 degrees if knock. I'm talking barely any throttle...no lugging and on flat ground. This only happens with a coolant temp between 140 and 160 in 5th gear cruising steady state. As soon as the goes closed loop at around 160 it won't knock at all. I can reproduce it every time. I am stumped....it doesn't seem to hurt anything but I'm not thrilled about it.
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Dave I have stumbled onto almost identical symptoms and I've decided to investigate the O2 sensor. In my case it happens much earlier in the warmup cycle. Under very cold conditions (20 degrees in the garage and single digit ambient), I fired the car up and slowly eased on down the road. I had zeroed out the KR gauge and at 30 mph, in 4th gear with no load, and steady speed. I had not gone 1/4 mile and happened to glance at the KR and caught it suddenly sweep from 0 to 7. It stayed there maybe a second or so and eased back down to 0 and stayed there. A couple of days ago when I was running my stock tune the exact same thing happened at almost the same spot in the road. The only difference is that stock my spike was 3.8. I'm just guessing but could the could this occur when the switch is made from open to closed? Another thing that gives me this idea is that if I'm using some throttle I may be forcing a switch to open and I've never had a high KR when flexing any muscle.
Larry - It's worth looking at. Torque actually has a built in gauge that will tell you when it is open or closed loop. The KR I get is almost exactly as you describe and occurs right BEFORE it goes in to closed loop (i.e. still in open loop) It starts occurring at a temp of about 145 degrees but only in 6th with a very small amount of throttle- it goes in to closed loop around 158/160. E-85 blend helps with the spike but I've actually figured out if I shift manually and stay out of 6th gear and keep the RPM's between about 2 and 3K (higher is fine but the car is warming up so I don't want to rev it out) then it won't occur. Once the car is at 160 I just pop it in D and move along. Once the car is in closed loop it is fine. I still plan on logging and see if I can understand what is going on. I'm not sure if there is a temperature timing adder just in open loop that causes the timing to advance to a point where it just knocks too easy. I will be logging throttle %, Coolant Temp, Knock, Timing, RPM, open/closed loop, AFR, and possibly engine load. If I can recreate it I can at least see what kind of timing it is calling for and go from there...
Further - when the car is in open loop it isn't using the O2 sensor (at least that is how I understand it). The car uses closed loop for almost every other case including WOT (which is different than my previous car but this car has a wideband so it can carefully monitor the air/fuel ratio). So...I don't know that the O2 sensor is to blame because if it was faulty then this condition should be showing up in Closed Loop. I still believe that is a condition that exists based on the open loop table is triggering this - but it also may be something is wrong with the car that is ultimately the issue if no-one but Larry and I are experiencing this.
I too noticed an improvement when using the "grade assist" which kept it out of 6th. This occurring in 4th gear is interesting to me. To actually see it happen as I'm driving and to know that this is not a lugging KR situation makes me feel like I'm getting closer to figuring it out. Is the closed/open loop gauge a built in or is it a custom PID.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on February 09, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Further - when the car is in open loop it isn't using the O2 sensor (at least that is how I understand it). The car uses closed loop for almost every other case including WOT (which is different than my previous car but this car has a wideband so it can carefully monitor the air/fuel ratio). So...I don't know that the O2 sensor is to blame because if it was faulty then this condition should be showing up in Closed Loop. I still believe that is a condition that exists based on the open loop table is triggering this - but it also may be something is wrong with the car that is ultimately the issue if no-one but Larry and I are experiencing this.
Only the wideband can be used to monitor AFR,the narrow band is used primarely to monitor air/fuel mixtures closely but not other air.fuel ratios.
If you're talking about the difference between the two, the narrowband downstream of the cat(s) is placed to monitor catalytic efficiency. The upstream wideband is purposed to feedback data to the ECU for AFR logic and calculation.
There are plenty of WB equipped engines out there which still rely on open loop control during cold operarion AND high engine load. Most, in fact. WB just allows for much more acute adjustments to fueling, for the sake of emissions and efficiency.
My car is in closed loop before I can get it out of the garage.
From then on the only time it is in open loop is during decel fuel cutoff.
Guess the O2S warms pretty quickly. XD
Changes in Gasoline Manual (2009) published by EthanolRFA.com discusses modern formulations
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/rfa-association-site/ChangesinGasolineManualIV-UpdatedLogo.pdf?nocdn=1 (http://www.ethanolrfa.org/page/-/rfa-association-site/ChangesinGasolineManualIV-UpdatedLogo.pdf?nocdn=1)
Article that was shared elsewhere...
Figured I'd post it here
http://askthetrucker.com/no-more-summer-gas-blend-for-florida-north-carolina/
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The All Weather Blend is taking hold ...
Has anyone mentioned this app for Android users?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kennethnissel.e85&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kennethnissel.e85&hl=en)
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but it is what I use every fill up. Works great! On the winter blend topic I can definitely tell it's here...I see a lot more part throttle knock.
I see you guys are all using the torque app.. I have an iPhone so that's out. I want to try a blend but I want to make sure my pressure is going to be ok also kr ( guessing this is knock retard). Can I log these with the x4
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/04/4a521b0f8eff9fa726ba70e3103b4a22.jpg) I am on vacation right now, got my brother to run to get me 2 gallons and drop it off at my house. Looks like amerigreen brand
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 04, 2015, 01:11:40 PM
I see you guys are all using the torque app.. I have an iPhone so that's out. I want to try a blend but I want to make sure my pressure is going to be ok also kr ( guessing this is knock retard). Can I log these with the x4
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Yes. Will you be using a laptop with the x4?
The x4 can only log so much before it has loss of data resolution.
If you have an old android phone or tablet, that is another option.
I use torque for gauges but x4 for data logging.
Rear fuel pressure and knock are what you are looking for in the x4
If you don't have a laptop to use I have an 11 pid file for handheld only use.
Fyi, KR in torque and knock on the x4 aren't the same.
KR is basically the steps taken to prevent knock and knock on the x4 is actual knock.
You can see KR activity in Torques but see no actual knock on the x4
On the x4 knock pid a negative number indicates a happy ecu, a positive is actual knock.
The way I log right now I use the x4 to record the data then upload to my laptop.. But I have a feeling that's not what you mean by "use a laptop"
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What pressure is the limit for safe operation?
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 04, 2015, 03:11:47 PM
The way I log right now I use the x4 to record the data then upload to my laptop.. But I have a feeling that's not what you mean by "use a laptop"
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Correct, I log with the handheld plugged into the obd port and my laptop running live link.
I don't take my laptop when I log, I just upload after logging
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
What pressure is the limit for safe operation?
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I'm tuned at E20 and I never see less than 2k on the rail.
Torrie says 1k is the lowest he is comfortable with. There is debate about this but I ran some pretty steep blends on my 2013 with those pressures and the car always held AFR.
I dont think you will have any kind of an issue with a couple of gallons.
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 04, 2015, 03:25:32 PM
I don't take my laptop when I log, I just upload after logging
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You can log a lot more pids with much better resolution if you include your laptop.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 04, 2015, 03:28:51 PM
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
What pressure is the limit for safe operation?
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I'm tuned at E20 and I never see less than 2k on the rail.
Torrie says 1k is the lowest he is comfortable with. There is debate about this but I ran some pretty steep blends on my 2013 with those pressures and the car always held AFR.
I dont think you will have any kind of an issue with a couple of gallons.
Do you live in an area with a cold climate? He was saying that I need to keep an eye on it because of the lower temps in the winter. How aggressive is your tune?
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On the 2013 I had an aggressive e30 tune and we will just say I was playing fast and loose with my blend coupled with a zero degree day which caused a couple hiccups. Blending down to E25 fixed the issue.
I like my current E20 tune on the 2015 better. Its just as quick with no knock and lots of fuel pressure. Im pretty sure there is quite a bit of power on the table still.Personally I dont want to use any more e than is necessary to suppress knock and cool the cylinders. Straight gas has more energy available. Blending gives us the best of both worlds imho.
I dont think you will have any problems at all at E 20, regardless of temp....that being said I would certainly verify just to be on the safe side.
I am curious to see your logs when you get them.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 04, 2015, 04:30:34 PM
On the 2013 I had an aggressive e30 tune and we will just say I was playing fast and loose with my blend coupled with a zero degree day which caused a couple hiccups. Blending down to E25 fixed the issue.
I like my current E20 tune on the 2015 better. Its just as quick with no knock and lots of fuel pressure. Im pretty sure there is quite a bit of power on the table still.Personally I dont want to use any more e than is necessary to suppress knock and cool the cylinders. Straight gas has more energy available. Blending gives us the best of both worlds imho.
I dont think you will have any problems at all at E 20, regardless of temp....that being said I would certainly verify just to be on the safe side.
I am curious to see your logs when you get them.
this makes me feel better about the whole thing, thanks for the post. I should be putting some corn in the car tomorrow
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i really am having trouble trying to decipher these logs on live link,the numbers that are being reported for fuel pressure on the log do not match. can someone explain if there is a way to display these numbers in psi instead of mpa? ok edit, i just did the conversion,my max came out to 2500psi and min was 172 psi.. really? somthing does not sound right there
I'm not familiar with livelink but you just need to multiply every value by 0.145 to get psi. If you can use Excel its easy.
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 04:07:59 PM
i really am having trouble trying to decipher these logs on live link,the numbers that are being reported for fuel pressure on the log do not match. can someone explain if there is a way to display these numbers in psi instead of mpa? ok edit, i just did the conversion,my max came out to 2500psi and min was 172 psi.. really? somthing does not sound right there
When you build the config file arrow over to units, many have a drop down box to change them.
Numbers look normal to me.
How do I tell if the pressure is too low? Like I said it went from 172 as a min, to 2500 max.. I was told to try to keep it above 1000psi
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172 was most likely at idle, 2500 at wot. I will look at the logs in a little bit when I'm at my laptop. The 2500 max is a good indicator that all is well.
And let me clarify, that 1k psi is for WOT.
I don't know why but I didn't realize it was an excel file, that will make it easier to decipher
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Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 05, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
And let me clarify, that 1k psi is for WOT.
Ok torrie just emailed me back and said that the fuel pressure was not logged correctly there so I cannot see what it actually is... Not sure what that means...😕
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 05, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
And let me clarify, that 1k psi is for WOT.
Ok torrie just emailed me back and said that the fuel pressure was not logged correctly there so I cannot see what it actually is... Not sure what that means...😕
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i think he like to see fuel rear pressure.
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 04:55:35 PM
I don't know why but I didn't realize it was an excel file, that will make it easier to decipher
Sent from my iPhone
Logs are much easier to read via the graphs/gauges in livelink.
FRrP's in the logs, so not sure what he's Torrie's referring to ...
Yeah I took a quick look, looks like his standard config file.
Rail pressure looks pretty strong?
Quote from: SHOdded on November 05, 2015, 05:35:52 PM
FRrP's in the logs, so not sure what he's referring to ...
didnt look at the log only assumed rear pressure wasn't there.
Here is what he said
Build a new configuration file. That one is causing certain pids to read incorrectly.
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 07:56:43 PM
Here is what he said
Build a new configuration file. That one is causing certain pids to read incorrectly.
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You have mail!
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 05, 2015, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 07:56:43 PM
Here is what he said
Build a new configuration file. That one is causing certain pids to read incorrectly.
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You have mail!
sweet thanks man!! I have to load that to my x4 correct?
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You really need to log with your laptop using the X4 as a pass thru.
I started the same way trying to use the handheld only but it just doesn't have the processing power to handle the data requirements of a 35 pid config file.
The data and resulting tune updates will be better and by using the pid limited handheld alone you will hit the power wall much faster because Torrie won't have all the necessary data to crank it up safely.
The learning curve seems steep at first but once you get the hang of it, its pretty simple. Livelink is actually a pretty powerful tool. I'm always willing to text, email. or even jump on the phone with you to walk you through it if necessary.
FoMoCoSHO knows his way around date logging with the x4. He's helped me several times.
Quote from: glock-coma on November 05, 2015, 09:50:14 PM
FoMoCoSHO knows his way around date logging with the x4. He's helped me several times.
I'm getting there but I must give credit where its due. AJPturbo has been a
huge help to me, not only enhancing my interaction with the device and software but especially with reading and understanding logs and showing me different ways of looking at the data.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 05, 2015, 09:13:33 PM
You really need to log with your laptop using the X4 as a pass thru.
I started the same way trying to use the handheld only but it just doesn't have the processing power to handle the data requirements of a 35 pid config file.
The data and resulting tune updates will be better and by using the pid limited handheld alone you will hit the power wall much faster because Torrie won't have all the necessary data to crank it up safely.
The learning curve seems steep at first but once you get the hang of it, its pretty simple. Livelink is actually a pretty powerful tool. I'm always willing to text, email. or even jump on the phone with you to walk you through it if necessary.
ok got the new config file, used my laptop instead of just the tuner. i just found out you could log through the computer with better results yesterday. Thanks for your help,this log looks good to me fuel pressure wise, didnt look at the kr readings though. this log was with about an e18 mixture. i put the corn in about 4 pm today, so i dont know if the car realizes the fuel is even different yet. i am familiar with most of the tuning stuff, i have a 93 mustang gt i use the same laptop for with a moates quarterhorse and binary editor. i still have someone do the actual tuning but i ask alot of questions because i like to have some idea of what is going on.
Its all about lending a helping hand when its needed the most,great stuff FoMoCoSHO. Z :clap2: :clap2:
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 05, 2015, 10:07:33 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 05, 2015, 09:13:33 PM
You really need to log with your laptop using the X4 as a pass thru.
I started the same way trying to use the handheld only but it just doesn't have the processing power to handle the data requirements of a 35 pid config file.
The data and resulting tune updates will be better and by using the pid limited handheld alone you will hit the power wall much faster because Torrie won't have all the necessary data to crank it up safely.
The learning curve seems steep at first but once you get the hang of it, its pretty simple. Livelink is actually a pretty powerful tool. I'm always willing to text, email. or even jump on the phone with you to walk you through it if necessary.
ok got the new config file, used my laptop instead of just the tuner. i just found out you could log through the computer with better results yesterday. Thanks for your help,this log looks good to me fuel pressure wise, didnt look at the kr readings though. this log was with about an e18 mixture. i put the corn in about 4 pm today, so i dont know if the car realizes the fuel is even different yet. i am familiar with most of the tuning stuff, i have a 93 mustang gt i use the same laptop for with a moates quarterhorse and binary editor. i still have someone do the actual tuning but i ask alot of questions because i like to have some idea of what is going on.
When you are logging, I'd try to find a nice highway on ramp you can go WOT 1st -3rd or as fast as your stomach can tolerate. I typically go after 9 when the light traffic makes getting a clear stretch more probable. Your log showed a little knock spike but it looked to me like lift knock which seems to be a somewhat common occurrence. Right before it starts it looks like you romped it, let off and got right back on it for a brief time and lifted completely where the 2.75 spike occurred. I've seen that before when making fast transitions between WOT and decel fuel cutoff back into WOT.
Fuel looks good.
Glad you got it figured out and got Torrie some usable data.
Since I don't drive a lot currently I usually drive a day or 2 monitoring with Torque before I pull another log so the adaptives can do their thing.
I have a tiny bit of lift knock and my tranny is giving me some false KR on WOT downshifts I need to get resolved.
Quote from: ZSHO on November 05, 2015, 10:31:36 PM
Its all about lending a helping hand when its needed the most,great stuff FoMoCoSHO. Z :clap2: :clap2:
X2 :thumb:
Easiest thing to try may be a softer downshift, FoMoCo? You are running Amsoil in the trans already, right?
Quote from: SHOdded on November 06, 2015, 04:32:05 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on November 05, 2015, 10:31:36 PM
Its all about lending a helping hand when its needed the most,great stuff FoMoCoSHO. Z :clap2: :clap2:
X2 :thumb:
Easiest thing to try may be a softer downshift, FoMoCo? You are running Amsoil in the trans already, right?
Yes and yes. I'm not sure softer is the exact answer, just a different pressure. It has already been adjusted and its much better. But not gone.
I'm getting mysterious lift KR on my new race tune also...I'm thinking it has something to do with the extra fueling to accommodate the more power coming to an abrupt halt than the trans...but I could be wrong...Seeing lift KR from 2.5 - 3.8
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Well I have an hour long drive to the track so maybe my adaptives can adapt by the time I get there. I am going to take my laptop and log the runs
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 06, 2015, 12:50:11 PM
Well I have an hour long drive to the track so maybe my adaptives can adapt by the time I get there. I am going to take my laptop and log the runs
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You will be good.
Logs at the track are safest and best.....
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 06, 2015, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 06, 2015, 12:50:11 PM
Well I have an hour long drive to the track so maybe my adaptives can adapt by the time I get there. I am going to take my laptop and log the runs
Sent from my iPhone
You will be good.
Logs at the track are safest and best.....
As long as it doesn't rain!!! Slight chance this evening
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First run, fastest run so far(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/06/63e0bb527646d119ba6410f9ce130577.jpg)
Right lane
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Very nice. 12 sec club.
Needs to go faster!!!! Yay!!!
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here is the log from the 12.9 run
I love it when I get a response from torrie after reading that log that says "There is room to make more power there."
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Sure to give the ego a boost too ;) Maybe a 12.7 soon?
I don't think I will be going down to the track anymore this year. Closes real soon
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Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 07, 2015, 01:45:13 PM
I don't think I will be going down to the track anymore this year. Closes real soon
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I wouldn't let that stop me from continuing the log/retune process all winter. I've had 3 revisions since last week.
I'd have him whip up a real corn tune as well.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 07, 2015, 01:53:25 PM
Quote from: f8tlSHO on November 07, 2015, 01:45:13 PM
I don't think I will be going down to the track anymore this year. Closes real soon
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I wouldn't let that stop me from continuing the log/retune process all winter. I've had 3 revisions since last week.
I'm not going to stop, I just can't measure the difference in real time it's all seat of the pants. I took the car to the store this morning and it felt faster in the 58 degrees this morning than it did last night at the track @72 degrees.. I aired the tires down last night also, on the way home low pressure light came on.. Car went to fwd mode right away.
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Wow you say winter gas is worse then summer gas?
Looking at the learned octane ratio on torque in winter worse I get is
-.9 in the winter on 91 octane now it's summer and getting -1%
Seems winter blend changes from our cheap but popular convince gas station was getting .4 and Chevron .9-.6 but now summer it's a flat 1% from both
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