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Why bigger turbos make more power than stock turbos at same PSI

Started by EcoPowerParts, November 05, 2013, 09:02:36 AM

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Frozen Taurus

Turbo lag is all relevant to compressor size and turbine housing AR .... you could make great power down low with a single 35R turbo with a T3 or T4 frame and a AR of .82 ....twins are not always the best or cheapest way
2011 Tuxedo Black SHO non PP, K&N drop in, TCE Big Brake Kit, Megan Racing Coilovers
My other car is a 447 awhp Talon

EcoBrick Bob

While we could do a conference call on all of this... I am up for some method of real-time internet conferencing... I think everyone needs to read as much as they can on turbos... and why small twins work better than  larger single turbos in many situations...  On the street they are much more user friendly... At the strip where you are trying to max performance and low et... not so much.  I compiled a bunch of turbo and methanol (and other propellants) articles which BPD kindly moved over to this site.  All good info, but may or may not apply to YOU or ME... depending on what we want to do with our Toys!

While I may be totally wrong... I think Ford did a good job picking turbos, DI and the rest of the package for most of us... For the rest of us- which may mean YOU and ME who post here and a big group of the rest... We need a bigger boost package which will work with what Ford has limited us with...
So.. what does this entail... My opinion -- (NOTE- I am dazed... confused and Verklempt!!!) is that we need bigger volume turbos and more fuel capacity, which can at this time be gained by Methanol, or with 4Dr's modded manifold, and his fantastic Squash fuel system... that isn't as cheap as methanol... but might be safer....  What we really need is bigger DI pump, higher volume DI injectors etc... but then we get to the drive train... Whoops!!!

So... the ultimate solution... buy a F-150 Tremor or another F-150 version that is close to our wheelbase... and swap bodies!!!!   LOL  LOL  help me...LOL

2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

bigmoneycloser

Between this truck and my motorcycle build..... I may never be done with mods and upgrades....
Lol
2014 Explorer Sport 401A
22x10.5 Vossen CVT- powder coated Matte Graphite
Pirelli Scorpion Zero Asimmetrico 285/35/22
H & R lowering springs/LMS 93 high boost/AirAid CAI/170* thermostat/3 Bar Map Sensor/Full LED interior /HID head and fog lights/weather tech digital floor mats/SharkFin antena/custom Billet foot pedals/Wilwood big brake kit/ LMS-Corsa CatBack Exhaust/LMS Catted Downpipes

scap99

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on November 05, 2013, 08:17:57 PM
Between this truck and my motorcycle build..... I may never be done with mods and upgrades....
Lol

My shooting buddies are hating my truck...lol.
Kinda glad for a cheaper hobby for a change of pace.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


05yellowgt

Supra's go to big singles because they are more simple to plumb as well as the fact that there just isn't room for bigger twins.  The fastest 2011+ turbo Mustangs are running a mix of single and turbo twin turbo setups.  They are making 1100-1300rwhp so both can work. 

Smaller twin setups have some advantages.  They can be placed closer to the exhaust manifolds, which helps to enhance spool (the further downstream the turbos, the more heat is lost, and cooler exhaust loses volume and energy to spool the turbos with).  Twins typically get equallized exhaust flow since they are typically placed the same distance away from the exhaust manifolds, where as a single typically has a short exhaust routing from the bank closest to it and a longer run from the other side of the engine.

Disadvantages are that there is more to go wrong with a twin setup.  Two turbos, two wastegates, two oil lines, two coolant lines, etc.  Twin setups are also typically heavier (more overall piping and the weight of a second turbo).  Twins are also typically more expensive as you are buying a second turbo.



With the Platform, and specifically the 3.5 V6, part of the magic I believe is the packaging of the turbos so close to the exhaust manifolds.  In fact, Ford was so intent to do this on the 2.0, that they integrated the exhaust manifold into the head casting.  You can't attach a turbo any closer than that.  The proximity to the exhaust in conjunction with size of the turbos work to help create the instance spool and torquey nature.  Moving to a larger single setup should be reserved for the situations where a larger twin setup won't fit for packaging reasons unless you are looking at a race only application.



As far as a larger turbo making more power at a given boost level vs a smaller turbo, things have pretty much been covered, except for understanding compressor maps.  It has somewhat been covered in noting that a larger turbo typically has lower intake temps vs a smaller turbo at the same measured boost level.  When comparing turbochargers, and any forced induction application, one should look at the compressor maps and try to match up the compressor map to the intended operating range of the turbo or supercharger.  If you go too big or two small, you will operate outside of the peak efficiency range and will see less than ideal results. 

With the upgraded ATP turbos, I don't think you are going to see any updated compressor maps, since they are upgrades to an existing turbo.  As manufacturers start coming out with new turbos, we'll want to pay close attention to compressor maps on top of all the other variables.
2010 Ford Flex Limited w/Ecoboost- SOLD
2013 F150 FX4 Supercrew 6.5ft bed Ecoboost w/3.55

bigmoneycloser

Ok guys..
If you did a turbo upgrade without a fuel system upgrade. Assuming you would have some gains, just not as much as with an upgraded fuel system..

Where would most of the power be? Are you going to see all the power up over the 5-6k rpm?
And would it hurt you 0-3k rpm power??

I'm asking because, if all the extra power is up top and the bottom doesn't see any power or loses some power, this would be a bad mod for a non track daily driver...

Any thoughts would be great..
As far as turbo, I would be looking and the ATP twin turbo upgrade?

Thx
2014 Explorer Sport 401A
22x10.5 Vossen CVT- powder coated Matte Graphite
Pirelli Scorpion Zero Asimmetrico 285/35/22
H & R lowering springs/LMS 93 high boost/AirAid CAI/170* thermostat/3 Bar Map Sensor/Full LED interior /HID head and fog lights/weather tech digital floor mats/SharkFin antena/custom Billet foot pedals/Wilwood big brake kit/ LMS-Corsa CatBack Exhaust/LMS Catted Downpipes

jomc111

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on November 06, 2013, 04:38:36 PM
Ok guys..
If you did a turbo upgrade without a fuel system upgrade. Assuming you would have some gains, just not as much as with an upgraded fuel system..

Where would most of the power be? Are you going to see all the power up over the 5-6k rpm?
And would it hurt you 0-3k rpm power??

I'm asking because, if all the extra power is up top and the bottom doesn't see any power or loses some power, this would be a bad mod for a non track daily driver...

Any thoughts would be great..
As far as turbo, I would be looking and the ATP twin turbo upgrade?

Thx

With the atp turbo upgradeyoi wont see much if any change in spool and power in the lower rpms. They are still small turbos but reworked to allow them to make more power.
The ones they are talking about causing lag are the single much much larger turbos then the atp upgrades.

No one has yet to push the stock fuel system by itself with upgraded turbos so not sure what gains wpuld be exactly
2009 mazdaspeed 3 Garrett GT3076R//HKS SQV3 blowoff valave//Autotech internals//Pauter rods//CP pistons// ACT 6 puck clutch// Lightened Flywheel//PG tubular manifold//Corksport downpipe// Streetunit racepipe// Greddy Ti-C catback//HKS type 0 Turbo Timer// Manual boost controller// Eibach pro-kit// Koni FSD dampers// JDM yellow fog overlays// COBB short throw shifter// oil filter conversion // BSD //
Parted out - sold
2010 sho -stock -sold
2014 focus st

EcoPowerParts

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on November 06, 2013, 04:38:36 PM
Ok guys..
If you did a turbo upgrade without a fuel system upgrade. Assuming you would have some gains, just not as much as with an upgraded fuel system..

Where would most of the power be? Are you going to see all the power up over the 5-6k rpm?
And would it hurt you 0-3k rpm power??

I'm asking because, if all the extra power is up top and the bottom doesn't see any power or loses some power, this would be a bad mod for a non track daily driver...

Any thoughts would be great..
As far as turbo, I would be looking and the ATP twin turbo upgrade?

Thx
I made all of my power before 5500 RPM even though boost stayed flat across the board.
There's videos and dyno sheets to show where the power was gained in my video I posted.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
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BiGMaC

This is a little behind, but I just read the thread.  Anyway, make me smarter please....  Am I right in assuming that the bigger turbo does more because if i compress more air at a time it's more air at the same pressure and because of the volume the pressure (therefore the amount of boost cylinder load) is greater... like having a volume tank on a compressor? That is to say... because more air is more air?

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

Fast SHO

I'm in for an ATP turbo upgrade but want to see the gains with only a tune first.

Someone needs to take the plunge.  Just not me!
2014 SHO PP

QuickSilver

Quote from: BiGMaC on November 07, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
This is a little behind, but I just read the thread.  Anyway, make me smarter please....  Am I right in assuming that the bigger turbo does more because if i compress more air at a time it's more air at the same pressure and because of the volume the pressure (therefore the amount of boost cylinder load) is greater... like having a volume tank on a compressor? That is to say... because more air is more air?

Woah BigM, I read it twice and still not sure I understand your question ;D So waaay oversimplifying it, an engine is an air pump, move more air and make more power. Turbo's move air and send it back inot the motor, lets say one is a syringe and one is a garden hose, if both are flowing water at 10PSI at the tip are needed to  fill a five gallon bucket, which one fills the bucket faster, syringe or garden hose?
AJ

2014 Ingot Silver Explorer Sport- LMS V3 Tune, AirRaid CAI, Hi_flow Catted DP's to Complete dual 2.5" exhaust, 19"X 9.5"TSW Panorama Rotary Forged/powdercoated Rims, Cree LED Foglights, Hoping for those Megan coilovers to be developed...

EcoBrick Bob

Reality is that bigger turbo keeps increased air volume consistent and doesn't lose pressure.   More air at same PSI makes more power...
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

scap99

Quote from: QuickSilver on November 26, 2013, 10:07:47 PM
Quote from: BiGMaC on November 07, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
This is a little behind, but I just read the thread.  Anyway, make me smarter please....  Am I right in assuming that the bigger turbo does more because if i compress more air at a time it's more air at the same pressure and because of the volume the pressure (therefore the amount of boost cylinder load) is greater... like having a volume tank on a compressor? That is to say... because more air is more air?

Woah BigM, I read it twice and still not sure I understand your question ;D So waaay oversimplifying it, an engine is an air pump, move more air and make more power. Turbo's move air and send it back inot the motor, lets say one is a syringe and one is a garden hose, if both are flowing water at 10PSI at the tip are needed to  fill a five gallon bucket, which one fills the bucket faster, syringe or garden hose?

But the needle is the same size (intake tubing, throttle, plenum)...

I'm trying to wrap my head around it too.
This is my first experience with turbos, and I'm green as can be.

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DJE624

I think when the air from the turbo hits the smaller "pipe" size it will increase in velocity and still maintain CFMs.  Like a venturi fitting.

BiGMaC

That's how I thought about it....... so the larger diameter turbo moves air hitting the same pipe (intake valve) as the  smaller one with both at the same pressure.  The air must then move faster from the larger turbo in that pipe to be at the same pressure as that from the smaller turbo.Cylinder size is fixed.. so more air  (boost) gets into the cylinder (combustion chamber)... I think?

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock