LSPI.... lets talk about it!

[jman]

Is there an easy way to detect this knocking? An app?

I bet you could see the LSPI event in your TQ app.  I have seen a couple videos of what it sounds like.   I personally have not heard or had major knock events.  Most of my hard pulls are data logged and I see very little to no knock.

I've checked the Torque app and haven't found anything. I also have the SCT, any pointers?

[SM105K]

Is there an easy way to detect this knocking? An app?

I bet you could see the LSPI event in your TQ app.  I have seen a couple videos of what it sounds like.   I personally have not heard or had major knock events.  Most of my hard pulls are data logged and I see very little to no knock.

I've checked the Torque app and haven't found anything. I also have the SCT, any pointers?

From the info I have read it is a single and non on going event.  It isnt a event you can "monitor".  Knock you can monitor. However it if were to happen, perhaps it would show up as knock. So then how would you differ between the two?

[jman]

From the info I have read it is a single and non on going event.  It isnt a event you can "monitor".  Knock you can monitor. However it if were to happen, perhaps it would show up as knock. So then how would you differ between the two?

And how can you monitor regular knocking?
I Googled it and all I found was an add-on app for Torque Pro but it is not longer available.

[SM105K]

It should be a parameter that TQ already monitors.  I know it did in my SHO when I was looking at stuff before I ordered my LiveWire.

If you open the TQ app, while it is connected and press Real Time Information.  That brings up the gauges.  Press and hold down on the a blank part of the screen.  "Add Display" should pop up.  Click it.  Find out which display you want, and click it.  The bright green high lighted sensors is what TQ is reading in real time.  Scroll down to "Knock" and should tell you.  If it is bright green, then it can be displayed.  Click it.  Now here is the kicker.  If see a positive number while under hard acceleration that mean the car is seeing knock and pulling timing.  If you see a negative number under acceleration, then the car is adding timing. 

Let me know what you see.   

[jman]

There isn't one for Knock but I found one that displays the Timing Advance. So anything + would mean knocking?
Thanks, I'll try it later today.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[SM105K]

There isn't one for Knock but I found one that displays the Timing Advance. So anything + would mean knocking?
Thanks, I'll try it later today.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Okay....we are going to add a knock sensor........I didn't remember if I had done this......so here it is

Open the TQ app and and in the bottom left hand corner click the gear icon.  That will bring up "settings, vehicle profile, and Quit".  Click "settings".  Then click "Manage Extra PIDs/Sensors" .  Upper right hand corner click the 3 vertical dots.  Click "add custom PID" read the disclaimer...and click on okay.

In the picture I added, put that exact information into the blank spaces.  Then click okay at the very bottom. 

That should give you a Knock PID and you will be able to see knock. I reversed the logic.  So if you see  positive number timing is being added, if you see an negative timing is being pulled. 

below is the technical things and how to add different PID's.


https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3141.0.html

2010+ Taurus pids

Knock 

Notes on how this PID works: This PID will vary from -4 to +7.5 although we have some people that say they've seen a -5.  If the number is negative then it is adding timing in real time (this is good)...if it is positive it is knocking (this is bad).   A couple of degrees isn't a big deal and the general consensus seems to be under 5 should be okay if you aren't highly modified.  The ECU is supposedly able to subtract a maximum of 7.5 degrees of timing and won't read any higher (not verified by me personally and may be tune dependent).

Most of the knock I see is at part throttle (less than 2 degrees) and isn't a big deal unless you are maxing out the gauge then something worth looking in to may be going on.  Knock at WOT is more important to monitor.

One note:  Do NOT use spaces in the equation and pay careful attention to the () or you will get weird results.

PID 2203EC
Torque Equation -  ((signed(A)*256)+B)/512 

Note: Many people find the logic Ford used "backwards" and think that a positive number should be adding timing and a negative number should mean knock.  This is a totally valid approach and you can easily change the formula to accommodate that by using the following formula:

Torque Equation -  ((signed(A)*256)+B)/-512

You can think of this as Cylinder Ignition correction - If it is positive then it is adding timing (good) if it is negative is subtracting timing (Bad)

Whatever way you decide to use it is just fine but make sure you remember   For the record I have switched to the second way as i find it more intuitive.

[SM105K]

There isn't one for Knock but I found one that displays the Timing Advance. So anything + would mean knocking?
Thanks, I'll try it later today.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Timing Advance and Knock are different.  The ECU adds and pulls timing by interacting with the knock sensors.  If the ECU under heavy acceleration doesn't see "knock" it will continue to add timing safely to a capped point (tuners can change this).  Same thing with knock, if the ECU sees "knock" it will pull timing. This is why knock monitor is so important in a tuned car.  This is also why, S.S.I. (I know) was crucified by this board and others because they disabled the knock sensors and that is what help cause motor failures.   

Timing is effected by numerous things. In a nut shell (there are more factors but here is the jist), IMO timing is mostly effected by air temp and fuel octane.  If you have extremely hot air temps (IAT2) and low octane you will see low timing because of pre ignition conditions and reduced power.  If you have low temp (IAT's) and high octane you will see more timing and more hp. 

Colder air and good fuel allows for more timing and more boost which makes more HP!

This is why the new Intercooler from GH is such a good investment.  It drops the IAT's and allows for more timing with the same fuel octane over the stock intercooler.  This is also why our cars respond so well to higher octane fuel as well. 

Now LSPI is different......LSPI (from what I have read) is caused when oil and fuel are mixed together (emulsified) in the upper oil ring area.  This causes a mixture that is low in octane and has the ability to detonate and cause severe damage at ANY TIME! This is why it is super important to run a catch can, use good oil (Castrol Edge, Amsoil SS), and use a top tier fuel.  This will help reduce the factors that cause LSPI.

 

[SM105K]

Also.......

Big Shout Out to Ecoboostsho for all the information has provided throughout the years esp with PID's!

[ecoboostsho]

That knock stuff looks familiar!   One thing I'd point out is that I originally said knock at part throttle isn't a big deal...I wrote this way before much was known about LSPI so I'd probably say it might be a big deal since these failures are happening under low throttle conditions.  A lot has certainly been learned over the years about direct injection motors.  I would personally expect LSPI to "show up" as knock however it might be too late at that point since the failures occur pretty quickly.  The LOR (Learned Octane Rating) seems to be "learned" during part throttle events so I would definitely use that as well in addition to knock.  If your LOR is taking a hit then you may have some pretty heavy part throttle knock going on that could indicate the potential for an LSPI event?

[SM105K]

That knock stuff looks familiar!   One thing I'd point out is that I originally said knock at part throttle isn't a big deal...I wrote this way before much was known about LSPI so I'd probably say it might be a big deal since these failures are happening under low throttle conditions.  A lot has certainly been learned over the years about direct injection motors.  I would personally expect LSPI to "show up" as knock however it might be too late at that point since the failures occur pretty quickly.  The LOR (Learned Octane Rating) seems to be "learned" during part throttle events so I would definitely use that as well in addition to knock.  If your LOR is taking a hit then you may have some pretty heavy part throttle knock going on that could indicate the potential for an LSPI event?

I agree with what you said.  Now if we could only differentiate between part throttle knock(which isn't inherently bad) and the LSPI event.

Your statement here got my attention:

"If your LOR is taking a hit then you may have some pretty heavy part throttle knock going on that could indicate the potential for an LSPI event?"

In my mind that would be a reasonable assumption.  My car has very little knock because the IC, CC, oil, and higher octane (E30 or Sunoco 100 Octane) fuel I run.  I also monitor my LiveWire like a hawk.  If it sees more than 1.5 degrees being pulled it tells me, which I never see either part or full throttle. 

So.....if I start seeing knock at light throttle, I could assume I am in or on the verge of an LSPI event?     

[SHOdded]

So.....if I start seeing knock at light throttle, I could assume I am in or on the verge of an LSPI event?     

I don't know if you can make a correlation like that.  More likely that an LSPI event has triggered knock as part of a chain reaction, an aftereffect rather than a predictor.  But if the LSPI triggers knock, it is also likely too late to do anything about it.

You can only act on the prevailing wisdom, unfortunately.  How much that wisdom is really true, is hard to say.  LSPI is still being actively investigated, but there was sufficient evidence to move the API and ILSAC certifications forward.  So you do what you can:  use a better engine oil and not worry so much

[SM105K]

So.....if I start seeing knock at light throttle, I could assume I am in or on the verge of an LSPI event?     

I don't know if you can make a correlation like that.  More likely that an LSPI event has triggered knock as part of a chain reaction, an aftereffect rather than a predictor.  But if the LSPI triggers knock, it is also likely too late to do anything about it.

You can only act on the prevailing wisdom, unfortunately.  How much that wisdom is really true, is hard to say.  LSPI is still being actively investigated, but there was sufficient evidence to move the API and ILSAC certifications forward.  So you do what you can:  use a better engine oil and not worry so much

That is why I run good fuel, use good oil, and change it frequently.

[mrhighcaliber]

The thing about LSPI events is that they are either consistent, or random. Read what I said again and think about it.

Oil vapor from the pcv system is usually consistent with engine load, rpm, oil, and coolant temps. Pcv oil vapor distributes itself among the cylinders more evenly, which will make a misfire event known to the pcm sooner. Vapor can more easily be compensated for and will negativly effect your LOR, the same manner as a lower octane fuel will. Which means the pcm sees it via the knock sensor and can adjust safely.

Random LSPI
Is the most dangerous because it not only is unpredictable, but the source of it is usually oil seepage that has by bypassed the oil ring and accumulated near the top compression ring on the piston. A bit of oil seepage is normal under varying and changing engine loads and conditions. But if a top ring or ring land accumulates a mass of oil over the course of a few combustion events; that mass spontaneously combusts during a high engine load situation (timing advanced, boost, etc), there is no time for the pcm to see it, and compensate. Engine damage will likely occur from this perfect storm. All it takes it one combustion event like this to destroy piston or bend or snap a rod.
LSPI is now a major issue due to mass turbocharging and high compression ratios of today's highly efficient engines.

LSPI events are most likely to occur under high engine loads at low/medium engine rpm. 

Bringing is to oils designed to combat LSPI.

In my opinion, a good oil designed to combat LPSI, that also has lower volatility, is more important than a catch can.

Good oils, and an occasional oil flush and a good PEA based fuel system cleaner is what I do, and recommend to keep the pistons clean of carbon build up on piston rings, grooves/lands that can cause poor sealing, resulting in excessive oil seepage, and increased likelyhood of a catastrophic LSPI event.





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[ddlopes]

https://www.fordnxt.com/tech-stories/engine/a-direct-injection-specific-oil-could-save-your-ecoboost-engine/