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How do i 'read' / interpret the STFT logs?

Started by TopherSho, July 10, 2017, 12:20:53 PM

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TopherSho

As stated in the title.  how does one read the Shot Term Fuel Trim data .. ?

I installed a meth kit and am looking to understand the data being presented by the handheld.
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 12:20:53 PM
As stated in the title.  how does one read the Shot Term Fuel Trim data .. ?

I installed a meth kit and am looking to understand the data being presented by the handheld.
Your STFTs are pulling fuel (shortening the injector PW) to deal with the unknown fuel source.

TopherSho

Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?

FoMoCoSHO

#4
Here is the fuel equation from the manual...

The adaptive fuel strategy uses O2 sensors for fuel feedback. The fuel equation includes short and long term fuel trim modifiers:

FUEL MASS = AIR MASS * SHRTFT * LONGFT/EQUIV_RATIO * 14.64



Where:
Fuel Mass = desired fuel mass Air Mass = measured air mass, from MAF sensor
SHRTFT = Short Term Fuel Trim, calculated
LONGFT = Long Term Fuel Trim, learned table value, stored in Keep Alive Memory EQUIV_RATIO = Desired equivalence ratio, 1.0 = stoich, > 1.0 is lean, < 1.0 is rich 14.64 = Stoichiometric ratio for gasoline

A conventional O2 sensor (not a wide-range sensor) can only indicate if the mixture is richer or leaner than stoichiometric.  During closed loop operation, short term fuel trim values are calculated by the PCM using oxygen sensor inputs in order to maintain a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio. The PCM is constantly making adjustments to the short term fuel trim, which causes the oxygen sensor voltage to switch from rich to lean around the stoichiometric point.  As long as the short term fuel trim is able to cause the oxygen sensor voltage to switch, a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio is maintained.
When initially entering closed loop fuel, SHRTFT  starts 1.0 and begins adding or subtracting fuel in order to make the oxygen sensor switch from its current state. If the oxygen sensor signal sent to the PCM is greater than 0.45 volts, the PCM considers the mixture rich and SHRTFT shortens the injector pulse width. When the cylinder fires using the new injector pulse width, the exhaust contains more oxygen. Now when the exhaust passes the oxygen sensor, it causes the voltage to switch below 0.45 volts, the PCM considers the mixture lean, and SHRTFT lengthens the injector pulse width. This cycle continues as long as the fuel system is in closed loop operation.

lamrith

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 10, 2017, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?
So the goal in a perfect word is to keep your STFT at 1.00?  Anything higher it is adding fuel, anything less it is pulling fuel..?
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago w/ 275/40-20 GMAX AS-05.

TopherSho

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 10, 2017, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?

Perfectly :)
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

TopherSho

Quote from: lamrith on July 10, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 10, 2017, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?
So the goal in a perfect word is to keep your STFT at 1.00?  Anything higher it is adding fuel, anything less it is pulling fuel..?

In a perfect world yes,  but with density changes in fuel and air and temps it wont be ''that'' perfect .. some folks here have -20 STFT like i just did and it seems that while not ideal is ok for runs?

I am curious if AJP or someone else could advise on what a BAD LOW STFT would look like ...
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: lamrith on July 10, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 10, 2017, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?
So the goal in a perfect word is to keep your STFT at 1.00?  Anything higher it is adding fuel, anything less it is pulling fuel..?
Correct.....


StealBlueSho

Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 07:57:33 PM
Quote from: lamrith on July 10, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 10, 2017, 05:33:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 10, 2017, 05:27:51 PM
Thank you!  I knew that part but the values in the field are what i need help on.   I see basically a 1,  then it drops to .95 then .9 and down as fars as .8

is that -5, then -10 and -20 STFT as people are labeling them ?
So 1.01 is adding 1%, .99 is removing 1%...

Make sense?
So the goal in a perfect word is to keep your STFT at 1.00?  Anything higher it is adding fuel, anything less it is pulling fuel..?

In a perfect world yes,  but with density changes in fuel and air and temps it wont be ''that'' perfect .. some folks here have -20 STFT like i just did and it seems that while not ideal is ok for runs?

I am curious if AJP or someone else could advise on what a BAD LOW STFT would look like ...


In a normal application (no meth) it's considered best to keep within 7% either way (adding or removing) on the trims.

You can max out your trims too, so if the total added trims is 1.25 then the ECU will close the throttle to prevent you from going to lean.. the car can no longer add fuel to keep your AFRs where they are demanded. I ran into this when I was Torrie tuned a lot...

If you go .75 or lower meaning the ECU has pulled all the fuel it can, then your AFRs will go too rich. This is bad too as it can lead to bogging out, misfires, etc...

Generally with a standard tune like I said.. plus or minus 7 is what most people want... gives the ECU plenty of room to make corrections for air density changes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TopherSho

Interesting.. so my run on 30/70 hit a low of 79 is within arms reach of not good.   

I had planned on running 15/85 as a test .. might be a requirement without adjusting  the tune.
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

TopherSho

Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 11, 2017, 07:17:59 PM
You can max out your trims too, so if the total added trims is 1.25 then the ECU will close the throttle to prevent you from going to lean.. the car can no longer add fuel to keep your AFRs where they are demanded. I ran into this when I was Torrie tuned a lot...

Do you mean the AVERAGED value of (LTFT+STFT)/2?

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

StealBlueSho

Quote from: TopherSho on July 12, 2017, 12:03:48 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 11, 2017, 07:17:59 PM
You can max out your trims too, so if the total added trims is 1.25 then the ECU will close the throttle to prevent you from going to lean.. the car can no longer add fuel to keep your AFRs where they are demanded. I ran into this when I was Torrie tuned a lot...

Do you mean the AVERAGED value of (LTFT+STFT)/2?


No, you add the trims together... LTFT is derived from readings of your STFT... basically it takes the historical data from your STFT to create a LTFT value that is used for a given load... or throttle position.. not sure which or if it's queued of another value...

In any even, if your LTFT at WOT is 1.07 which is technically adding +7% more fuel but at that moment your STFT is at .79 which is technically pulling -21% fuel then your fuel trim at that
moment is 7 + -21 which equals -14.... which means technically your ECU is pulling 14% fuel to achieve desired AFR. Hope that makes sense... I'm only about 5 sips into my coffee....

My fuel trims at WOT sit around .86 or so... Brad can adjust the fueling which brought my fuel trims to around .96...

Throttle closures directly effect your AFR when spraying... so if your tune uses throttle to control boost spikes then you will go rich when the throttle closes for a brief second...

TopherSho

hmm that confused me.  In my old logs my STFT and LTFT are .97 + 1 for 1.97 then.  hmmm seems like you guys are more interested in the diff of the two values.

so the formula would be :

LTFT  :=(reading-1.0)
plus            +
STFT :=(reading-1.0)
         ------------------
            basic result
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

hawkeye93

Quote from: TopherSho on July 12, 2017, 09:23:02 AM
hmm that confused me.  In my old logs my STFT and LTFT are .97 + 1 for 1.97 then.  hmmm seems like you guys are more interested in the diff of the two values.

so the formula would be :

LTFT  :=(reading-1.0)
plus            +
STFT :=(reading-1.0)
         ------------------
            basic result
No, don't add them.  LTFT is a long term average of your fuel trim, whereas STFT is a more instantaneous value.  Sort of like instant fuel economy vs. average fuel economy.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

2015 Ford Taurus SHO PP 12.219@112.84
PPE catless DP, Gearhead IC, SP-534, Reische 170, 3 bar, hybrid meth system, tunes from Unleashed, Livernois, Brew City Boost & AJP

1965 Ford Mustang Convertible 289 4V/T5Z/3.55
1955 Ford Fairlane Club Sedan 272 4V/Fordomatic