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Low-Speed Pre-Ignition in the MazdaSpeed DISI and Ford EcoBoost Motors

Started by FoMoCoSHO, April 17, 2016, 02:27:24 PM

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FoMoCoSHO

http://www.stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-speed-pre-ignition-in-the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/

Bottom line, low RPM coupled with boost and a hot spot = big boom.

IMHO running a high quality oil coupled with the correct heat range plugs is the first defense and even more important since we are running typically at least 100 Ft/Lbs higher than stock.

The ecoboost has oil squirters under the pistons and a higher quality oil that can remove more heat will only help the situation. lower quality or degraded oil equals less protection.

Mixing E-85 also aids with cylinder cooling. Too much though can cause low pressure which can lead to wall wetting which can also lead to hot spots. this is why I believe running leaner keeping rail pressure high is something that might need to be explored and it is surely a balancing act.

I run ACES IV in my fuel as well for its effective octane boost but also because as it burns, it leaves a lubrication layer in the cylinder, again helping to combat any hot spot activity. I'm running a pretty hot tune and KR activity is low to zilch. Maybe its just luck but the 2015 has much less KR than the 2013 and the only difference on my end is the ACES, and I'm actually running a lower blend of E.

There is a ton of info about this on the interwebz, feel free to add any research or discussion to this thread.





FoMoCoSHO

"Low-speed pre-ignition afflicts many highly boosted engines and is major industry challenge"


http://futurepowertrains.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Future_Powertrain_Conf_2016_BP_dist.pdf

Take a look at slide 10 and the effect of detergents in fuel.

AJP turbo

Agreed....and its surprisingly not entirely understood at this point...high rish/high reward with GTDI
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress


FoMoCoSHO

Some takeaways.....

Soot formation has been pegged as one of the possible causes and much of the research shows higher oxygenated fuel helps. (ie corn) Notice the correlation we've all seen with running higher corn blends and soot on the tailpipes. (ACES plus corn keeps my pipes clean all the time)

Keeping rail pressure high at low rpm boosted operation to combat wall wetting is important.

Noack may not be the biggest factor when selecting oil....high flash points are what we're looking for.

Fancy detergent packs may be causing more problems, especially since we get none of the washing benefits on the valves.

SHOdded

Noack is still important, just not for LSPI apparently.  Think of the many other undesirable conditions within the combustion cycle including and up to hydrolock & turbo failure.  By having lower Noack, you have lower oil content in the combustion chamber.  What is not being accounted for is the oil that sweeps gets past the rings, which may be the greater contributor to LSPI rather than the oil making it past the intake valves.

Interesting that the difference in LSPI between Group III & PAO oils is not as much as the difference between Group II & III.  Still PAO wins.  Not sure what their definition of high viscosity is, but lower viscosity (apparently equated with lower calcium content and higher molybdenum/phosphorus) PAO is even more important to have.

What flash point would be optimal for decreasing LSPI?

Detergent packs ... HE or non-HE ... LOL.  Good point.

Blame squarely laid on the Calcium Carbonate in detergent packs (not good for people either ;) )
LSPI: A KNOCK ON THE NEWEST ENGINES
http://fuelsandlubes.com/fli-article/lspi-a-knock-on-the-newest-engines/
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: SHOdded on April 30, 2016, 03:33:25 PM
Noack is still important, just not for LSPI apparently.  Think of the many other undesirable conditions within the combustion cycle including and up to hydrolock & turbo failure.  By having lower Noack, you have lower oil content in the combustion chamber.  What is not being accounted for is the oil that sweeps gets past the rings, which may be the greater contributor to LSPI rather than the oil making it past the intake valves.

Interesting that the difference in LSPI between Group III & PAO oils is not as much as the difference between Group II & III.  Still PAO wins.  Not sure what their definition of high viscosity is, but lower viscosity (apparently equated with lower calcium content and higher molybdenum/phosphorus) PAO is even more important to have.

What flash point would be optimal for decreasing LSPI?

Detergent packs ... HE or non-HE ... LOL.  Good point.
You are correct, I didn't mean to discount NOACK, flash point is just an additional factor that needs considered.....maybe?

It seems to me that in cylinder conditions will always be higher than the flash point of any manufactured oil

I'm curious about the lower viscosity factor because there is a certain straight 0 weight oil I'd like to try. Of course that is tempered by all of the unknowns like what happens when oil pressure drops.....then again you don't need as high of oil pressure to get the lighter oil to travel the same distance....which brings me to  :banghead:




FoMoCoSHO

Something BND Brian told me which ties into that SAE article is that 91 octane with less detergents and aromatics blended with ACES is superior to 93.....maybe he's onto something.

SHOdded

Well, you are getting results with ACES, so ...

And it also makes the case for better rotating assemblies, as currently available from Livernois and others.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Scott4957

This was a hot topic with the DISI, I had a 2013 so my engine was not as susceptible. One rule of thumb I always followed was to not get into boost at low RPMs and a tall gear. Being a manual this is not an issue and you would likely downshift anyways. In the SHO/MKS you have to give that some thought, though I don't think we are as susceptible to this issue as the early DISI's were. Now that I am spraying meth those deposits will be cleaned up quickly and eliminate one of the possible causes of this as well as reducing another with the cooled intake air and cooler combustion. I don't think I have ever heard of this happening in the EB, and I never knew anyone with the issue in the DISI, didn't even see it come up in the last few years in the mazdaspeed forums. Thanks for sharing!
2013 Lincoln MKS EcoBoost, AJP Tuned

AJP turbo

The ecoboost is not immune to it...come with the territory of direct  injection and boost...the ecoboost piston design actually helps to combat lspi

There are tables in the tune specifically for LSPI

The answer is not to avoid high boost at low rpm...that defeats the purpose of the tiny turbos oems are using...look at all the new turbo motors...they are making peak torque sometimes below 2000 rpm...

The newer engines have inherent designs to suppress the lspi and tuning cam timing helps
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SHOdded

Low Speed Pre-ignition (LSPI), an Unintended Consequence of Gasoline Direct Injection Turbo-charged (GDI-T) Engine Technology
http://pceo.com/GDI_and_Turbocharging_Rinek

New Hardware, New Challenges: GDI Engines & LSPI
http://pceo.com/articles/gdi-lspi

LSPI Animation - Chinese Subtitles
https://lubrizol.mediaspace.kaltura.com/embed/secure/iframe/entryId/0_bym2aemp/uiConfId/28908951

GF-6 FAQ
http://pceo.com/faq
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SHOdded

SwRI's HEDGE® technology eliminates low-speed pre-ignition in highly boosted engines - Cooled EGR + advanced ignition/boost technology
http://www.swri.org/9what/releases/2010/hedge.htm

Turbocharged Directinjection Is Engine Oil's Next Big Hurdle
http://gf-6.com/sites/default/files/Turbocharged%20Direct%20Injection%20Is%20Engine%20Oils%20Next%20Big%20Hurdle.pdf

Systematic approach to analyze and characterize pre-ignition events in turbocharged direct-injected gasoline engines
http://www.fev.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Media/TechnicalPublications/Gasoline_Systems/2011-01-0343_Systematic_approach_to_analyze_and_characterize_pre-ignition_events_in_turbocharged_direct-injected_gasoline_engines_01.pdf

PC-11 and GF-6: New engines drive change in oil specs
http://digital.ipcprintservices.com/publication/?i=139567

Coming Soon: New Gasoline and Diesel Motor Oil Specifications December 2015
http://aspalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Lubrizol-ASPA-9Dec2015-Handout.pdf
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!