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Turbo 'flutter' during low rpm / high gear acceleration...

Started by zzfb, July 04, 2015, 01:28:26 PM

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ZSHO

Quote from: John Miller on April 23, 2016, 09:38:24 PM
Interesting. But .... Is the "flutter" he refers to about a sound, and not about how the vehicle is actually running as described in this thread?


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John Please add your signature,thanks.  Z    :)


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

John Miller

Signature set up . . . I think.

Now, back to my question about whether the "flutter" referred to on the Focus ST site is only about a sound, or whether this "normal" behavior is also referring to the "feel" that we are getting?  :)
2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

ZSHO



2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

John Miller

I do, but I wanted a buffer with the gas. It's a DD, and I don't need to eek out every last HP.


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2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

Excalibur

Quote from: ZSHO on April 24, 2016, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: Excalibur on April 23, 2016, 06:54:06 PM
It's been a week with my final revision from my tune from Torrie and I have noticed mine doing the same thing. checked all the hardware checks stated earlier, so I'm guessing I'm going to have to email Torrie as well and see if it will fix mine. I'll report back after I find out something. great thread btw.
Excalibur please add your signature,thanks.  Z   :)

done.
2013 PP SHO; k&n drop-in, 3bar, unleashed tune.

John Miller

#155
For the benefit of others suffering from this affliction, I wanted to circle back with an update . . . and probably call this solved for me.  As discussed, getting the car tuned and having it gear down from 6th to 5th a bit quicker is a nice fix. 

To start with, with just the tune, the issue was mitigated for me; it pulled so much more effortlessly in 6th gear anyway, it really didn't have an opportunity to go into 'flutter' very easily.  I know this is the opposite of what some others experienced with tunes.

But there were some conditions in which it still fluttered.  To rid of it completely, it took several iterations from Torrie on the downshifting.  He tells me the downshifting is a function of output shaft speed (OSS) to throttle angle.  In the end, I had to data log the car with these PIDs, along with those necessary to show the flutter, e.g. boost and wastegate.   Torrie was able to see the OSS to throttle angle ratio when the car fluttered, and make it so the car would downshift directly before that event.

Even then, the first stab using this technique had an issue -- the car wouldn't go to 6th until 62 MPH.  That was too high for me, as I do way too much highway driving to have the car hung in 5th at 55MPH.  So, he made some more changes, and the car will go into 6th if at 54+ MPH.  Even when completely off the throttle coasting from higher speeds, it will downshift to 5th when it hits 54ish, which I can live with.

And, I have been unable to get the car to flutter no matter how hard I try.  As I start up an incline, if I am on the throttle light enough to avoid a downshift, it is not enough to make the car flutter.  If I get on the throttle enough that it used to flutter, the car gears down to 5th instead.  I'm sure it is costing me a little gas mileage.  But, on my commute going 65 MPH over mountains, I am still approaching 29 MPG, so I won't complain.

Still data logging and working through a couple more quarks with the tune, but at least this bit is solved.

Side note on the cruise control:  I can confirm that cruise uses the same shifting tables.  I know because if I set the car on cruise control at 53 MPH, it will stay in 5th gear.

But, interestingly, the computer does everything it can to avoid downshifting to 5th when I set the cruise to 54+.  Even if I set the cruise on 56 MPH and go up a mountain, the cruise is on the gas so light that it won't gear down.  If I am driving without cruise, it is really, really tough for me to not progress the throttle at that speed (to compensate for the hill) without making it gear down.  But, the cruise somehow does it.  I can't complain though -- it still manages to keep speed (thanks to the power from the tune) while not hitting the throttle hard enough to flutter. 

Bottom line, it is my theory that cruise uses the same shift tables, but the computer adjusts its throttle usage accordingly as to avoid downshifting if at all possible.  Just a theory.

2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

SHOdded

Nice writeup/summarization.  Fingers crossed the "sweet spot" holds :)
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

John Miller

#157
Final update from me:

Issue solved.  Solution?  Livernois.

Torrie's tune definitely helped 90%.  With the quicker downshift, I could not make it flutter ever when driving it without cruise.  The car would simply downshift to 5th before I could get to the throttle position necessary to make it flutter under every conceivable condition.  I was generally happy with that.

However, after some more playing with it, it would still sometimes flutter with the cruise on.  In my earlier post, I thought it wouldn't flutter with cruise, but it did eventually.  Since the car would never downshift to 5th with cruise on, setting the cruise between 60 and 68 MPH would bring on the flutter on certain inclines.  Torrie was great getting the downshift where I needed it when driving manually, and he made an effort to try and get that quicker downshift with the cruise on, but couldn't make it happen.  I had more or less decided to live with it.

On a whim, I called Livernois.  Anthony was somewhat non-committal about whether their tune would fix this particular issue, but stated he was "confident" it would solve it or mitigate it.  After a talk with management, he agreed to give me a one time "hassle free" return of the tuner if it didn't solve the problem -- putting me at no risk.  I was still hesitant that it was worth my time, so I procrastinated a couple weeks, but I eventually broke out the credit card and spend the 600 smackers.  Installed the V10 93 octane tune, then eventually moved over to the 'soft shift' version of it (personal preference).

Livernois' tune fixed the flutter completely, and that is without a quicker 6 to 5 shift that we were previously using to mask the issue.  I just took a 600 mile trip over that last 2 days, and tried every conceivable speed, incline, and condition to the flutter, and it ain't there.  Even with cruise tried every way I could. 

I am so happy I gave them a shot, and I feel like I can enjoy my commute again.  I guess there really is something to their claim of adjusting parameters within the tune that no one else does.  On a side note, I find their tune less "explosive" than the tunes from Unleashed, but it is smoother, especially at lower RPMs.  Since this is a DD, that works just fine for me.

Nothing against Torrie -- his tune was otherwise fun, and he was very responsive with his updates.  In fact, I was on revision 10 from Torrie trying to chase down this issue before going the Livernois route, so I would certainly recommend his tunes if you don't have the same condition from which I was suffering. 
 
2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

AJP turbo

I highly doubt its due to something they can change that others cant but more likely due to someone not knowing how to make an adjustment.

Its not something lms changes but more likely something torrie does that is having an adverse effect.

Wastegate duty cycle modifiers is the culprit if i had to bet , and i dont gamble

I could go into more detail but im not at liberty to do so

Great job informing the community though
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

John Miller

#159
Well, remember this problem occurred stock for me, and others in this thread (and in other threads I found) also said it happened stock.  So, it's not a problem created by the aftermarket tunes, Torrie or otherwise.

I read at least two others say it was worse with a tune.  Though the additional power of Torrie's tune changed the MPH at which the flutter would occur for me, and though the quicker downshift made it only happen for me with the cruise on, it was worse with a tune when it did happen. I presume because boost and other power-making conditions only exacerbate the sensation.

But, again, nothing with Livernois.  I can't say what they did differently, obviously.  And, I'm positive it was nothing "on purpose."  Whatever they did and for whatever reason, the issue doesn't exist with their tune.
2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

AJP turbo

Thats all good...we will never know but there are some things that people can do that i think can contribute and make worse but who knows....wish i could give you a tune but cant at this moment....enjoy your car
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

John Miller

Yep, all's well that ends well.  I hope some others with this condition try the Livernois solution.

It is so much better to drive when I don't dread stumbling into the "miss" on every incline at highway speeds :)

Now, who wants to buy a 'like new' SCT tuner?
2015 Taurus SHO, Non-PP, 93 Octane Livernois V10 "Soft Shift" Tune with 170 Reische Thermostat and 3-bar MAP sensor

ZSHO

Quote from: John Miller on May 22, 2016, 07:12:33 AM
Yep, all's well that ends well.  I hope some others with this condition try the Livernois solution.

It is so much better to drive when I don't dread stumbling into the "miss" on every incline at highway speeds :)

Now, who wants to buy a 'like new' SCT tuner?
John thats certainly some great news to hear and hopefully you can start enjoying your SHO for a long time,when your ready to sell your tuner just follow this link and best of luck on all fronts.  Z   :)    http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,997.0.html


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Excalibur

Good info. Mine is still gone from what I can tell. Torrie's revision fixed it.
2013 PP SHO; k&n drop-in, 3bar, unleashed tune.