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Amp and watt question

Started by jtoddk98, August 11, 2014, 10:01:09 AM

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jtoddk98

Hey. I just bought myself a 10in sub (375w rms) in a cool led lit box. Also got a kenwood kac-729s 600w amplifier. I want to know if my stock electrical system can handle the extra load. I look in the manual for the amp and it says "Current Consumption (1 kHz, 10% THD)=28 Amps". Any ideas if my car can handle it?
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

EcoPowerParts

Yes, no problem. Just make sure you run some 4ga wire and a proper fuse at the battery.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
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please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
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ZSHO

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on August 11, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
Yes, no problem. Just make sure you run some 4ga wire and a proper fuse at the battery.
Mike.B where is my sticker,just kidding Mike your the best,lol.


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

jtoddk98


Quote from: 4DRHTRD on August 11, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
Yes, no problem. Just make sure you run some 4ga wire and a proper fuse at the battery.
Alright sweet. Another question, should I tap the line after the factory amp in the trunk?
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

Lanson

Keep in mind that rating is more like a usable peak, unless you are into playing heavily clipped sine waves.

You'll be fine.

And yes I would take the speaker line tap after the amp.  May need a line output converter, may not.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

jtoddk98


Quote from: Lanson on August 11, 2014, 08:51:53 PM
Keep in mind that rating is more like a usable peak, unless you are into playing heavily clipped sine waves.

You'll be fine.

And yes I would take the speaker line tap after the amp.  May need a line output converter, may not.
Could I use a 8guage wire then?
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

jtoddk98

#6
Installed it today. Got a 6 gauge wiring kit from walmart for $34. The sub is a Dual audio SBP10 and it is powered by a MMATS Pro Audio E300.2 Amplifier. I'll have some pictures and video later today so you can see it. Looks good, ill be doing more wire hiding later.
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

jtoddk98

2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

Lanson

I have no idea if that sounds good or not, but to answer your question on wiring,

I like to use wire from this place www.wireandsupply.com and I order the 4 or 1/0 gauge welding cable.  The stuff you get at Walmart etc. for ~$30 bucks is likely not good quality stuff, although it may work in a pinch.  But welding cable is something that MUST pass stringent requirements and it is a known-good product (pure copper), so that's why I use it.  I always cover it in techflex (order from "furryletters" off eBay), and heatshrink. 

Dual as a brand is not really that good, however the MMATS product is known to be an excellent brand. 
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

jtoddk98


Quote from: Lanson on August 15, 2014, 11:21:43 AM
I have no idea if that sounds good or not, but to answer your question on wiring,

I like to use wire from this place www.wireandsupply.com and I order the 4 or 1/0 gauge welding cable.  The stuff you get at Walmart etc. for ~$30 bucks is likely not good quality stuff, although it may work in a pinch.  But welding cable is something that MUST pass stringent requirements and it is a known-good product (pure copper), so that's why I use it.  I always cover it in techflex (order from "furryletters" off eBay), and heatshrink. 

Dual as a brand is not really that good, however the MMATS product is known to be an excellent brand.
Haha. It sounds good for me. I'm not looking to wake the neighbors or shake my car apart. I rarely if ever go full volume, so the power cable barely gets warm. Good system on a budget.
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

Lanson

The power cable should never, EVER get warm. 

This is a sign that something is wrong.  Either the ground is not good enough, or the power wiring (fusing, etc) is not good enough.  Something is not good enough. 

There is extreme danger in letting wiring be a weak link.  Since it snakes through the car, probably unsheathed and unprotected, it can cause obscene, unnecessary damage potentially.  Also, the amp you paid for is not actually doing rated power, because the wire is literally sucking up some of the voltage. 

Second issue, that sub box is a bandbass box.  Bandpass is in most situations, built to play a small frequency range very, very loudly.   They can be made to perform but usually, they are made to sound impressive on a car stereo store wall but in a car, they are not tuned for the cabin inside.  This is an unfortunate byproduct of mass-marketing and "universal" box construction.  Truth is, all parameters (car size, customer needs, budget, etc) all play into what box and what sub goes into said box.  I'm pointing this out to you because what you have may have overboosted output at certain frequencies (these would be resonant frequencies), and muted or underboosted points at other frequencies, and there can potentially be quite a few peaks and nulls.  You may find this annoying, as I do.  What it tends to do is fatigue the ears and tends to make a less enjoyable musical experience than expected. 


If you find yourself wishing for more, especially if you are into something that can be cranked without fatigue, please let me know and I can try to help much further. 

edited to say:  I would absolutely do something about the wiring, STAT. 

I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

jtoddk98


Quote from: Lanson on August 15, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
The power cable should never, EVER get warm. 

This is a sign that something is wrong.  Either the ground is not good enough, or the power wiring (fusing, etc) is not good enough.  Something is not good enough. 

There is extreme danger in letting wiring be a weak link.  Since it snakes through the car, probably unsheathed and unprotected, it can cause obscene, unnecessary damage potentially.  Also, the amp you paid for is not actually doing rated power, because the wire is literally sucking up some of the voltage. 

Second issue, that sub box is a bandbass box.  Bandpass is in most situations, built to play a small frequency range very, very loudly.   They can be made to perform but usually, they are made to sound impressive on a car stereo store wall but in a car, they are not tuned for the cabin inside.  This is an unfortunate byproduct of mass-marketing and "universal" box construction.  Truth is, all parameters (car size, customer needs, budget, etc) all play into what box and what sub goes into said box.  I'm pointing this out to you because what you have may have overboosted output at certain frequencies (these would be resonant frequencies), and muted or underboosted points at other frequencies, and there can potentially be quite a few peaks and nulls.  You may find this annoying, as I do.  What it tends to do is fatigue the ears and tends to make a less enjoyable musical experience than expected. 


If you find yourself wishing for more, especially if you are into something that can be cranked without fatigue, please let me know and I can try to help much further. 

edited to say:  I would absolutely do something about the wiring, STAT.
You sure know your stuff! Thanks for pointing out the wiring issue, I found that I didn't have a good ground because I had it going to a painted surface, I sanded it down, reattached the cable, and then went on a 45 min drive to a baseball game. The cable is running at ambient temp now. All fixed! As for the sub box, I am experiencing what you described. Some frequencies shake the car, while others are almost silent. Any way to fix this cheaply? Thanks for your help!!!
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

Lanson

Well the right thing to do would be to return or sell the poorly designed bandpass box, and build/buy a stout enclosure with a decent sub.  Note, you don't have to spend a lot to get a lot, when it comes to subs.  $160-200 for a sub should last you pretty much forever, if you take care of it.  For the sake of simplicity, I would recommend quality 12" or 15", in a sealed box.  The box should not be a flimsy flea-market box, but a strong 3/4" MDF wood enclosure with bracing.  If you don't want to make one, you can buy one (check local stereo shops worth a darn) or if you just so happen to be around Las Vegas, I'd be more than happy to get my paws on it.  Anyway, there are 100's if not more solid good brands for subwoofers, so I'm just going to throw out ones I know that will absolutely get the job done, at a low price.

This is Sundown's little B-stock website, which means refurbs, scratch-dent, etc (but all 100% functional and perfect sound-wise, so GREAT for the budget), http://www.caraudiobargain.com/sub-woofers/ , now specifically, I was looking at the Sundown E series 15" v2 http://www.caraudiobargain.com/products/sundown-audio-ev2-15-subwoofer-e15v2-500w-e-series.html for $121.50, or this Sundown SD-2 12" http://www.caraudiobargain.com/products/sundown-audio-sd-2-12-500-watt-sd-series.html for $162, or similar, something like that.  Now each sub has its own box size requirements for best performance, but to give you a quickie on that, the E series will like a big box (2.5 cubic feet sealed), and the SD-2 is actually designed for very small boxes, and very narrow/shallow boxes with its shallow design, like a box that is 1 to 1.5 cubic feet would be a great. 

I can't find the owners manual info on your amp anywhere, but if you are bridging the amp, would you mind telling me what MMATS is suggesting the RMS power output of the two channels bridged will be?  I can guess about 240W or so.  This is low (and 600W amps run about $100, and I mean GOOD ones not brands like Dual which you can pass on) but you can definitely use it.  It will want a 4 ohm total load, so any sub you buy needs to be either a 4ohm sub, or a Dual 2 ohm sub (D2), which you'll series-connect the terminals to make a 4ohm load so that MMATS amp doesn't fry.  BTW that amp was more designed as a midbass or front door type amp, just FYI.

Now if you want to be cheeky, you can try blocking off the bandpass port on the sub box you have now, and see if you like the sound better.  I wouldn't suggest that as a permanent solution, but that will at least make what you have work.


How much have you spent on all your gear so far?



Quote from: jtoddk98 on August 15, 2014, 09:02:06 PM

Quote from: Lanson on August 15, 2014, 05:32:45 PM
The power cable should never, EVER get warm. 

This is a sign that something is wrong.  Either the ground is not good enough, or the power wiring (fusing, etc) is not good enough.  Something is not good enough. 

There is extreme danger in letting wiring be a weak link.  Since it snakes through the car, probably unsheathed and unprotected, it can cause obscene, unnecessary damage potentially.  Also, the amp you paid for is not actually doing rated power, because the wire is literally sucking up some of the voltage. 

Second issue, that sub box is a bandbass box.  Bandpass is in most situations, built to play a small frequency range very, very loudly.   They can be made to perform but usually, they are made to sound impressive on a car stereo store wall but in a car, they are not tuned for the cabin inside.  This is an unfortunate byproduct of mass-marketing and "universal" box construction.  Truth is, all parameters (car size, customer needs, budget, etc) all play into what box and what sub goes into said box.  I'm pointing this out to you because what you have may have overboosted output at certain frequencies (these would be resonant frequencies), and muted or underboosted points at other frequencies, and there can potentially be quite a few peaks and nulls.  You may find this annoying, as I do.  What it tends to do is fatigue the ears and tends to make a less enjoyable musical experience than expected. 


If you find yourself wishing for more, especially if you are into something that can be cranked without fatigue, please let me know and I can try to help much further. 

edited to say:  I would absolutely do something about the wiring, STAT.
You sure know your stuff! Thanks for pointing out the wiring issue, I found that I didn't have a good ground because I had it going to a painted surface, I sanded it down, reattached the cable, and then went on a 45 min drive to a baseball game. The cable is running at ambient temp now. All fixed! As for the sub box, I am experiencing what you described. Some frequencies shake the car, while others are almost silent. Any way to fix this cheaply? Thanks for your help!!!
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

jtoddk98

The amp puts out the full 300w bridged at 4ohm. That's one of the reasons why I went with the mmats amp is because it can put full power out, all the time. Into it about $250 for everything
2011 Taurus SHO Performance Package. EBC Stage 4 Brakes. Blacked out chrome. #130 of 602 in Ingot Silver

Lanson

Quote from: jtoddk98 on August 17, 2014, 02:57:28 PM
The amp puts out the full 300w bridged at 4ohm. That's one of the reasons why I went with the mmats amp is because it can put full power out, all the time. Into it about $250 for everything

For reference, an amp is only worth buying if it can put out RMS power all the time.  Disregard and completely ignore any peak power ratings.  Consider those markeneering at its finest. 

It sounds like you overspent.  As I said, the amp is good (but it is not a subwoofer-optimized amp), but the box and sub are not.  So I stand by my suggestions regarding the sub.  Try closing off the bandpass port, but in the end I think selling/returning that box and going with something better will make you happier. 

And by all means, ask any questions you have.  For me its always rewarding to help audio neophytes toward the path of awesome


Oh and don't forget to save up a little bit and get some deadening.  I like RAAMmat especially when on a tight budget.  Just a few tiles will change everything for the trunk, as well as the doors or anywhere else you are installing new gear.




For a future thread follower saying, "hey, what would you buy for $250 then, smarty?"  Now this answer only applies as long as the items are still sold, and priced at the prices that I'm about to show...but here's how you spend $250.  Amp - As long as these are still in stock, this is 600W @ 2ohms RMS (CEA-2006 certified) Once those are all gone, hopefully the PPI Sedona 850.1D is still around http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_27142_Precision_Power_S8501D.aspx which is close to 600W @ 2ohm, or close to 850W @ 1ohm.  Remember there's a 6% discount (minimum) out there for OCS website on the web, so you'll save a little extra money... oh and free shipping too.  Sub - (coil ohm spec changes depending on what amp you get) http://www.woofersetc.com/p-11861-e-12d2-v2-sundown-audio-12-500w-rms-dual-2-ohm-e-series-subwoofer.aspx (I picked woofersetc.com in this case because its free shipping, thus easier for me to create a $250 hard budget.)
I'm at $220 so far.  The rest goes to installation/fab materials.  If your budget is even tighter or you have NO wire or fusing or anything and you MUST stay under $250, consider this sub http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/p_20077_JBL_GT5-15.aspx or its 12" cousin.  When there's no money in the kitty, JBL's basic subs are a fantastic fall-back.  Bigger box requirements though...
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune