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Do I have to pay a diagnostic fee if the problem is not diagnosed?

Started by shaneirish, September 11, 2015, 08:38:26 AM

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shaneirish

My 2010 SHO have been in a dealerships shop for 4 days.  I have a powertrain warranty.  They can hear the noise coming from my front right wheel area but so far are unable to locate the source, they used the diagnostic stethoscope with no results.  They already charged me almost $300 for a suspension part that was not the problem and I negotiated that amount back in service credit.  Am I obligated to pay a diagnosis fee if the issue is never diagnosed?  They said they have contacted Ford Engineers in Dearborn for help and now I'm waiting to hear back.  I found an older thread from another SHO/Taurus board with 6 pages of the same problem and Ford dealerships inability to find the issue.  I'm about to throw in the towel here and can only imagine what the charges are so far with nothing fixed/diagnosed.   
2010 SHO 20" Wheels, LMS 4X tune, AirRaid CAI, 3-Bar MAP, 160 Thermostat.  TSB's and Failures TSB-11-12-10 - 6F50/6F55 TRANSMISSION. TSB 11-11-09 - INTERMITTENT STEERING DRIFT/PULL. All four wheel bearings replaced winter 2014-2015 (all failed at different times and within four weeks of each other, PTU Failure at 54,000 miles. Climate heat issue fixed, halfshaft issue. Right front strut bearing plate failure at 79,000. TSB installed the thrust washer over the halfshaft.

ZSHO

I feel for you,hopefully they provided you with a loaner i hope,quite honestly it varies by dealer and the type of warranty you have,but why should you pay for any fees considering the inconvenience you have been through from the start if they cannot fix the issue,personally would stop by and speak with the service manager and try to get an update,sounds to me like a possible faulty strut assembly,best of luck and hopefully she will be running like new in no time.  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

BiGMaC

I too feel your pain Shane. I went through a similar problem with a severe vibration between 65 and 75 mph on my '13 F250... It's a real frustrating experience at many dealers when the problem doesn't set a code. Hang in there.

On that truck we drove with SAs, Shop foreman, and two different front end "specialists" from the dealership after rebalancing (road force) and even indexing the wheels twice on each of the replacement sets when they couldn't be balanced.... We requested a test with the same wheels from another truck.... Dealer declined! This saga took place over 8 months.... I bought two sets of tires during this and all three sets had the same problem... Interestingly the wheels were always found to be out of balance after 2-3k miles.... We tried a second dealer without resolution after this.. And both used the Ford engineering hotline.   Finally, the vibration just stopped... So now I have. Truck with 40k, new tires, and something that I believe was faulty in assembly or part manufacture which finally wore in or shifted position. I do not use that dealer anymore. ... Sorry to get off topic... But just wanted you to know you're not alone in this day of computer techs rather than mechanics....

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

vernonator

I know your dealer is in contact with the "hotline" but have you reached out to your regional service rep?
2012 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP. Livernois Stage 4+, PPE Catless DP's, EBC Stage 4 Front/Rear Brakes
2015 Tuxedo Black Explorer Sport 401A, no mods....YET :)

shaneirish

I have the car back and the engineers at Ford, after getting all the diagnostic information, said it's most likely from the front right strut tower area, the techs isolated the noise to that location but said they could not promise that once they take the strut off and replace whatever is the issue that it will resolve the issue.  I only have a power train warranty so I declined to go any further with them and I will have my mechanic check it..  They assured me it is not in the drive line. I was not charged anything and I have a few new drive line and suspension parts as well as a PTU fluid change at no charge.
2010 SHO 20" Wheels, LMS 4X tune, AirRaid CAI, 3-Bar MAP, 160 Thermostat.  TSB's and Failures TSB-11-12-10 - 6F50/6F55 TRANSMISSION. TSB 11-11-09 - INTERMITTENT STEERING DRIFT/PULL. All four wheel bearings replaced winter 2014-2015 (all failed at different times and within four weeks of each other, PTU Failure at 54,000 miles. Climate heat issue fixed, halfshaft issue. Right front strut bearing plate failure at 79,000. TSB installed the thrust washer over the halfshaft.

SHOdded

Seems things are finally working in your favor.  Hope the fix (as originally suggested by Z) will too!  Notice any difference with the new PTU fluid in there?  Wonder if it's different from factory fill.  What is "LV fluid"?
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

ZSHO

Thats some great news to hear and hopefully its a permanent fix,just a couple of things to mention and if you can check if the dust cover by the strut tower inside your engine bay is on the housing ,also do you know if they tried to re-torque that bolt for the strut tower assembly as mentioned a while back,another note personally would change both sides in my opinion, BTW based on the work order glad there was a zero balance and probably would give the service advisor a zero for his typing effort,also check out the struts on Tasca parts for reference.  Z    http://www.tascaparts.com/auto-parts/2010/ford/taurus/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/front-suspension-cat/struts-and-components-scat


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Nasty93

Quote from: shaneirish on September 11, 2015, 11:44:46 PM
I have the car back and the engineers at Ford, after getting all the diagnostic information, said it's most likely from the front right strut tower area, the techs isolated the noise to that location but said they could not promise that once they take the strut off and replace whatever is the issue that it will resolve the issue.  I only have a power train warranty so I declined to go any further with them and I will have my mechanic check it..  They assured me it is not in the drive line. I was not charged anything and I have a few new drive line and suspension parts as well as a PTU fluid change at no charge.


Sounds like they took care of you pretty well considering the fact that the shop had to pay the tech all his time to diagnose the vehicle and they didnt charge you for some parts and services.
The least you could do is get it fixed with them, they deserve that.
2013 SHO PP - Unleashed Tune/3 bar /Magnaflow Catback /1 Step colder plugs/H&R springs/Cold Air/Caliper Covers

1993 Z28 88mm Turbo - street car

shaneirish

You don't know the whole story.  They misdiagnosed it last week, put in suspension parts that didn't fix it and told me it was fixed and charged me almost $300.  I was able to resolve that with the service manager with service credit.    The tech didn't diagnose anything and he would have been paid whether my car was there or not. The engineers from Ford advised them as to what they thought the diagnosis might be and gave me some maybe's on what the problem is. I don't work with "might be's" or "maybe's" and I'm done with the replace and see approach and inept tech's that are costing me money....$300 so far that in hindsight I should of only asked for my money back instead of service credit.   
2010 SHO 20" Wheels, LMS 4X tune, AirRaid CAI, 3-Bar MAP, 160 Thermostat.  TSB's and Failures TSB-11-12-10 - 6F50/6F55 TRANSMISSION. TSB 11-11-09 - INTERMITTENT STEERING DRIFT/PULL. All four wheel bearings replaced winter 2014-2015 (all failed at different times and within four weeks of each other, PTU Failure at 54,000 miles. Climate heat issue fixed, halfshaft issue. Right front strut bearing plate failure at 79,000. TSB installed the thrust washer over the halfshaft.

shaneirish

ZSHO,  yes, they went through and re-torqued everything in the suspension.  I will check out those parts and replace the struts.  Thanks for your advice!
2010 SHO 20" Wheels, LMS 4X tune, AirRaid CAI, 3-Bar MAP, 160 Thermostat.  TSB's and Failures TSB-11-12-10 - 6F50/6F55 TRANSMISSION. TSB 11-11-09 - INTERMITTENT STEERING DRIFT/PULL. All four wheel bearings replaced winter 2014-2015 (all failed at different times and within four weeks of each other, PTU Failure at 54,000 miles. Climate heat issue fixed, halfshaft issue. Right front strut bearing plate failure at 79,000. TSB installed the thrust washer over the halfshaft.

ZSHO

Quote from: shaneirish on September 12, 2015, 11:06:38 AM
ZSHO,  yes, they went through and re-torqued everything in the suspension.  I will check out those parts and replace the struts.  Thanks for your advice!
Any good tracks up North,BTW used to have a small cabin by Lake George years ago,best of luck and keep us updated.  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

ZSHO

This is the dust cover which i was referencing about,sometimes they fall or pop out and could have dirt buildup and especially water intrusion entering inside,its located on top of the strut tower by the sway bay.  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Nasty93

Quote from: shaneirish on September 12, 2015, 11:02:46 AM
You don't know the whole story.  They misdiagnosed it last week, put in suspension parts that didn't fix it and told me it was fixed and charged me almost $300.  I was able to resolve that with the service manager with service credit.    The tech didn't diagnose anything and he would have been paid whether my car was there or not. The engineers from Ford advised them as to what they thought the diagnosis might be and gave me some maybe's on what the problem is. I don't work with "might be's" or "maybe's" and I'm done with the replace and see approach and inept tech's that are costing me money....$300 so far that in hindsight I should of only asked for my money back instead of service credit.   

Every issue isnt cut and dry, sometimes you cant diagnose a vehicle without trying something. What they tried unfortauntly didnt work. But they did make it right and give you your money back more or less. The car business is full of maybes and might bes when diagnosing a complicated machine.

And a technician isnt getting paid hourly or salary. they are only paid on what they book out for the day. So either the tech works on your car and dosent get any book time and works for free. Or the service manager pays the tech for his time and he looses out because its a much more complicated issue than most.

People make mistakes, but its how those mistakes are handled that show the integrity of the dealer. It sounds like they are trying to work with you. It seems they are offering the credit due to it not fixing it and spending the time with hotline it get as accurate as a diagnosis as possible. So they arent blowing you off or asking you to pay for something that dosent fix the car i fail to see the issue.

Yes its a pain in the ass taking your car in more than once, We can all agree with that. Yes its frustrating not having your car, we all agree there too. But it sounds like they are very honest with you about whats going on and whats been found, id say you have a good dealer on your hands. At what point are your expectations unrealistic?

And i speak on this as a Ford Service Manager
2013 SHO PP - Unleashed Tune/3 bar /Magnaflow Catback /1 Step colder plugs/H&R springs/Cold Air/Caliper Covers

1993 Z28 88mm Turbo - street car

shaneirish

I restore vintage tube radios and amps electronically and cosmetically.  My grandfather was a tv and radio repairman and I learned that skill from him.  I have many tools and diagnostic equipment I use to test a radio that someone trusts me to repair, oscilloscopes, mutual conductance tube testers, signal generator and a variac just to name a few.  9 times out of 10 the problem is because the original paper capacitors are bad so I begin by replacing all the capacitors and electrolytic capacitors with their modern equivalents, replacing them should always be done regardless of what is wrong with the radio because a bad one will ruin an expensive transformer and the vaccuum tubes making what would have been a relatively inexpensive repair very costly. They are cheap and easy to replace, an analogy would be like driving with dry rotted tires.   I then test all the resistors and replace any that are not within the original factory specs that's listed on the schematic, usually +/- 10%.  I then test all the vacuum tubes and replace any that are weak  (I don't replace them because I'm guessing they are weak). I check all the wiring and then realign the tuning capacitor.   Plug it into the variac and slowely bring the voltage up and I would estimate that 98% of the time the radio works like it did when it left the factory..there are more steps to restoration but this is the condensed version.  Sometimes the issue requires more advanced use of my diagnostic equipment and the reliance on my years of experience.  When a customer explains to me the symtoms of what's wrong with their radio or amplifier  I have enough experience and skill to know where to start looking.  I don't randomly replace parts in the hopes that it solves the issue.  I would never randomly throw parts in a radio and then tell my customer the radio was fixed when it wasn't, I would be embarrassed to do that.  I would also never tell them that I don't know what the issue is so I'm just going to keep replacing parts until it works.  That's a sign of inexperience and ineptness and it's also terrible business.  I'm a professional and if I cannot fix the radio I wouldn't charge a dime or expect that customer to come back just because I had hours of diagnostic time into the radio.  The dealership did not offer to  refund my money or give me service credit for their misdiagnosis until I asked, they threw up a "test ballon" to see if I would roll over, that's terrible customer service. I only took my vehicle there in hopes that it was a driveline issue and covered under my warranty.  The dealership is more concerned about the bottom line and who is going to get paid and have the production line mentality of getting cars in and out quickly  rather than customer service.  They are inexperienced and inept and it's my money and it will be given to a professional and experienced mechanic.  So tell me again why I should throw my money at a dealership whose inexperience and ineptness failed to diagnose my car in the four days they had it and their next step was going to be to randomly replace parts until the issue was corrected...on my dime.
2010 SHO 20" Wheels, LMS 4X tune, AirRaid CAI, 3-Bar MAP, 160 Thermostat.  TSB's and Failures TSB-11-12-10 - 6F50/6F55 TRANSMISSION. TSB 11-11-09 - INTERMITTENT STEERING DRIFT/PULL. All four wheel bearings replaced winter 2014-2015 (all failed at different times and within four weeks of each other, PTU Failure at 54,000 miles. Climate heat issue fixed, halfshaft issue. Right front strut bearing plate failure at 79,000. TSB installed the thrust washer over the halfshaft.

66 Galaxie

After the mis-repair was done they gave you a service credit which is more than many dealers would do.

If you truelly feel that the service department at your dealer is inept maybe you should find another dealer.

Just my $0.02
'14 Flex Tuxedo Black ecoboost