Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 08, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
I'm slightly confused on how one member here has been successful building an 800 horsepower beast utilizing OE.

Whereas 4DR maxed out well before that and had to resort to PI.

1st, there's no need to supplement, or replace/upgrade the LPFP. On my various dyno runs and resulting tune files (DD 400awhp, Stage 1 Track 525awhp, Stage 2 track 617awhp) there was only a scant 1psi drop on the LPFP side across the board.

So that in and of itself, assures me, that the OEM LPFP is perfectly capable.

It was explained to me, that running a completely separate set of injectors, essentially taxes the crap out of the OEM LPFP, and likely why someone was experiencing repeated shutdown of the TB, etc. and required the additional pumps, controls, etc.

I've said it time and time again, it's not necessary to run a separate set of injectors.

Factor in the use of E85 (which I'm not a well known fan of, for a myriad of reasons) it takes a LOT more E, to burn the equivalent of the 93 Pump Gas (or even the 109 Race Gas for the higher tune files).

Moving along, we did see drops on the HPFP side. Which, on it's floor (or lowest end) ranged in the 900-1000psi range(s) respectively. Previous info posted here is accurate in that the desired target range is 2000-2200psi range(s) ideally.

This is where the 100% Methanol factors in.

It was suggested I ramp up to a dual nozzle meth setup in order to reacquire the targeted HPFP range(s).

I did so, and well...... you the see the results.

That's how I am able to "pull off" what I have by completely retaining EVERY ASPECT of the OEM Fueling System.

We all have similar goals in mind as far as desiring to achieve the most power, etc. out of our respective setups.

How we achieve those goals though, will obviously be different.

Some of those differences I have learned over the years, is that 93 Pump Gas is not readily available in all areas of the Country. I'm glad that it is in my area.

It goes w/o saying that others may have to embrace other alternatives/solutions that wouldn't necessarily be in line with my levels of acceptance.

Doesn't mean one is wrong, or one is right. It's just a different means to a different end.

We should all be thankful for all of those who've been involved over the years for their poise, sense of direction, willingness to test, and push the Ecoboost platform in the manner(s) that they have..... EVERYONE.

Ultimately, the results achieved on my SHO speak for themselves.

Quote from: SHOdded on March 08, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
The one difference that immediately stands out is the cooling property of methanol over ethanol.  To quote,
The main distinction between methanol and ethanol is that methanol has a lower caloric weight (or the amount of energy available to burn when combusted), higher specific heat (takes more heat to burn the mixture) and a high heat of vaporization (when vaporized can cool down intake air temps dramatically). Ethanol is generally the same characteristics and properties as methanol, but does not cool down the intake charge as well and as mentioned above costs substantially more then methanol.

I agree totally... As I study in prep for likely getting Meth injection it seems that it is the cooling which makes meth what it is for our cars, especially with our inadequate intercooler...  Meth injection into the IC to TB pipe can lower intake air temps 50 degrees easily at the throttle body... Each one of those degrees is about equivalent to 1 WHP... so bolt on 50WHP and keep your intake valves and TB clean at the same time.

Quote from: SHOdded on March 08, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
The one difference that immediately stands out is the cooling property of methanol over ethanol.  To quote,
The main distinction between methanol and ethanol is that methanol has a lower caloric weight (or the amount of energy available to burn when combusted), higher specific heat (takes more heat to burn the mixture) and a high heat of vaporization (when vaporized can cool down intake air temps dramatically). Ethanol is generally the same characteristics and properties as methanol, but does not cool down the intake charge as well and as mentioned above costs substantially more then methanol.

No, meth is not quite as good at cooling but keep in mind I will continue directly injecting E-85 blends further cooling the mixture. E-85 directly injected cools the charge so much the effective octane ramps to the 160's.

Cooling, check
Octane, check.

What I need is fuel volume and I think E-85 will be superior to meth for that purpose, especially with actual gasoline added.

As far as cost, I keep seeing about $6.00/gal for meth and I paid $1.69 tonight for 3 gallons of corn.

Quote from: bpd1151 on March 08, 2015, 06:18:30 PM

Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 08, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
I'm slightly confused on how one member here has been successful building an 800 horsepower beast utilizing OE.

Whereas 4DR maxed out well before that and had to resort to PI.

1st, there's no need to supplement, or replace/upgrade the LPFP. On my various dyno runs and resulting tune files (DD 400awhp, Stage 1 Track 525awhp, Stage 2 track 617awhp) there was only a scant 1psi drop on the LPFP side across the board.

So that in and of itself, assures me, that the OEM LPFP is perfectly capable.

It was explained to me, that running a completely separate set of injectors, essentially taxes the crap out of the OEM LPFP, and likely why someone was experiencing repeated shutdown of the TB, etc. and required the additional pumps, controls, etc.

I've said it time and time again, it's not necessary to run a separate set of injectors.

Factor in the use of E85 (which I'm not a well known fan of, for a myriad of reasons) it takes a LOT more E, to burn the equivalent of the 93 Pump Gas (or even the 109 Race Gas for the higher tune files).

Moving along, we did see drops on the HPFP side. Which, on it's floor (or lowest end) ranged in the 900-1000psi range(s) respectively. Previous info posted here is accurate in that the desired target range is 2000-2200psi range(s) ideally.

This is where the 100% Methanol factors in.

It was suggested I ramp up to a dual nozzle meth setup in order to reacquire the targeted HPFP range(s).

I did so, and well...... you the see the results.

That's how I am able to "pull off" what I have by completely retaining EVERY ASPECT of the OEM Fueling System.

We all have similar goals in mind as far as desiring to achieve the most power, etc. out of our respective setups.

How we achieve those goals though, will obviously be different.

Some of those differences I have learned over the years, is that 93 Pump Gas is not readily available in all areas of the Country. I'm glad that it is in my area.

It goes w/o saying that others may have to embrace other alternatives/solutions that wouldn't necessarily be in line with my levels of acceptance.

Doesn't mean one is wrong, or one is right. It's just a different means to a different end.

We should all be thankful for all of those who've been involved over the years for their poise, sense of direction, willingness to test, and push the Ecoboost platform in the manner(s) that they have..... EVERYONE.

Ultimately, the results achieved on my SHO speak for themselves.

Great post, and you have a great car. I hope I get to see in person sometime. I've always wanted to drag race a LEO...

For my purposes which I replied to SHOdded, I think corn injection is a better solution to the same end...for me. The more fuel volume I can get, the more corn I can directly inject into the cylinder...the best of both worlds. Cooling and octane (yes, not quite as much as meth.)in the throttle body, massive cooling and octane in the cylinder.

E-85 is also less corrosive than meth so that will be a bonus for system durability. From what I've read it's safer to handle than meth.

I will get canned 91 and 93 tunes for travel and I have E-85 all around me so its definitely convenient.

As far as price i'm seeing about $6.00/gal for meth vs the $1.69/gal I paid for the corn tonight.

What I need to figure out is what if any mods i would need to do convert a WMI system to a CGI (corn gas injection?) system.

Not catching myself or my car on fire is of course the highest priority. Any ideas regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

If I can figure this out, it will be just another tool in the ecoboost toolbox.

If not, I guess I will just go buy some meth and retune.   

Unless.....

BPD, I'd love to see your fuel curve, especially WOT 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift.

TY for the compliments. Appreciated & certainly not necessary.

I love racing (& driving aggressively). I mean after all, when people call 911, they expect prompt arrival. So it's inherent to my profession to drive more on the edge, then not.

As far as fuel curves, I would think that info is on file with my tuner, but frankly I never asked for it. I can try?

Moving along, I have had nothing less than a stellar experience with the Methanol.

As long as the systems are installed properly, I see no reasons (or fears) for employing it's use. I mean short of my pump failure (which I created a thread on previously) I've had no issues at all in the nearly 3.5yrs I've been running it.

I think any fears of it's continued use (&/or it's perceived shortcomings) are drastically over amplified.

Ironic as far as costs go, & one's desires to achieve more power.

The adage "you gotta pay to play" applies. I guess I'm thankful I have great pump gas options, as well as relatively cheap Methanol & Race Gas options so close to me (less than 5min for all/each).

I've seen some alleged shipping costs on those products & holy hell Batman!

No wonder some of you look for alternatives.

As much as I shy away from E85, I do find it interesting that recent legislative proposals (in City of Chicago only) have been floated around proposing a minimum floor of E15 (in lieu of the State standard of E10) being implemented.

Of course I'm not naive to dispel the political & economical forces at play in those proposals. But there must be some substance there in & of itself for the ideations to even be brought forth to begin with.

Again, we certainly all possess similar goals, but it"s nice knowing we each embrace different ways to go about achieving them.

Cont'd successes FoMoCoSHO!

My question about the fuel curves is how WMI translates to higher rail psi or is rail pressure still numerically down but the overall picture is good.  Hopefully that makes sense.

FoMoCoSHO

Can't speak to the merits of E-85 vrs methanol.
But you can get methanol near Kil-kare for $2.75 per gallon at Duncan Oil.
Duncan Oil also has a location in Springfield - not sure if they have methanol - but I think you're in Columbus so that would be closer for you.

Well on the good side, I can now provide a LPFP to support 750WHP of E85 for $700.00 YAY!
I'll post up pictures and link to the store once I get them. This week is going to be a pain as I'll be in TX as of 1AM for the rest of the week to coach my son at national wrestling tournament.
2 cars are in process of BIG BUILDS on E85, upgraded rods/pistons, ported heads, possible cams and of course aux injectors and upgraded fuel pumps to support E85 fuel which is the best possible solution for BIG POWER without spending BIG MONEY.
Heck what do I know, 750WHP on my V - yup it's on CORN.


The LPFP does need upgrade if you want to run E85, it doesn't have enough pump to run it, PERIOD.
If you want to run meth and race gas so be it but your cost per gallon goes up massively.
Around $3k or so for full fuel system - aux injectors, intake modified with injector bungs/fuel rails, ProEFI 48 etc. You can get E85 in most places for around $2 a gallon vs $15 a gallon for C16 around here (requires removal of cats) + meth on top of that. At $13 a gallon it doesn't take much to hit $3K.
I drive my V around town on E85 and it drinks fuel heavily but at $2.00 a gallon I'm quite OK with that compared to running C16 all the time. The cooling properties of the ethanol also outweighs the race gas scenario.

Quote from: EcoPowerParts on March 09, 2015, 01:29:44 PM
Well on the good side, I can now provide a LPFP to support 750WHP of E85 for $700.00 YAY!
I'll post up pictures and link to the store once I get them. This week is going to be a pain as I'll be in TX as of 1AM for the rest of the week to coach my son at national wrestling tournament.
2 cars are in process of BIG BUILDS on E85, upgraded rods/pistons, ported heads, possible cams and of course aux injectors and upgraded fuel pumps to support E85 fuel which is the best possible solution for BIG POWER without spending BIG MONEY.
Heck what do I know, 750WHP on my V - yup it's on CORN.


The LPFP does need upgrade if you want to run E85, it doesn't have enough pump to run it, PERIOD.
If you want to run meth and race gas so be it but your cost per gallon goes up massively.
Around $3k or so for full fuel system - aux injectors, intake modified with injector bungs/fuel rails, ProEFI 48 etc. You can get E85 in most places for around $2 a gallon vs $15 a gallon for C16 around here (requires removal of cats) + meth on top of that. At $13 a gallon it doesn't take much to hit $3K.
I drive my V around town on E85 and it drinks fuel heavily but at $2.00 a gallon I'm quite OK with that compared to running C16 all the time. The cooling properties of the ethanol also outweighs the race gas scenario.

Very nice....

Rich

Quote from: HtrdMKS on March 09, 2015, 01:29:12 PM
FoMoCoSHO

Can't speak to the merits of E-85 vrs methanol.
But you can get methanol near Kil-kare for $2.75 per gallon at Duncan Oil.
Duncan Oil also has a location in Springfield - not sure if they have methanol - but I think you're in Columbus so that would be closer for you.

Nope, I'm around you but driving out there every week year round would be a serious pita.

On my priority list, cost is the lowest consideration, it would just be a bonus of using E-85.

Here's an interesting thread, especially the graph showing HPFP pressure...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22929

BTW, some people are going to be REALLY pissed when the truck E85 fuel system comes out and we make 550+WHP on stock turbos on E85...

Quote from: EcoPowerParts on March 09, 2015, 10:22:56 PM
BTW, some people are going to be REALLY pissed when the truck E85 fuel system comes out and we make 550+WHP on stock turbos on E85...

Any chance you have compared an F-150 injector side by side with a SHO injector?

My research indicates part of our HPFP E-85 issues are caused by higher viscosity of the E-85 coupled with a larger molecular chain actually increasing friction and backpressure. Spray patterns are similar but actually getting it through the whole seems problematic.

I just wish there were even a semblance of a drivetrain solution for handling the higher hp/tq levels that the engines are so obviously capable of delivering.  Maybe start with HD gear sets and axles, combine that with a bit of TCM magic.