Quote from: SM105K on November 20, 2019, 02:30:40 PM

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 20, 2019, 01:44:32 PM

Quote from: SM105K on November 14, 2019, 08:50:28 AM
My SHO sometimes sits for as many as 10 days without starting.  Before I start it (I call it my dry start protocol), I press the brake and gas to the floor and push and hold the start button.  This allows the engine to spin with over without starting.  I do this for about 10 seconds and then start my SHO like normal.  This allows the oil pressure to build and get oil into the valve train and other areas.  I also do this after every oil change.

I guess I don't understand the logic in doing this???  You're still turning your engine over so what's the difference it it starts right away or your crank it over for 10 seconds?  I would think you're doing more harm than good actually since oil is at least splashing around after it starts.  Not so much when you're cranking at 150-200 rpm.

Turning over the engine at 150 to 200 rpm for 10 seconds creates less friction then a normal sat for along time dry start up.  You will still have oil in main caps and rod bearings ect.  I am not worried about the rotating assembly.  I am worried about the valve train.  These engines have long timing chains, hydraulic tensioners, and nylon chain guides.  When I prime the system, I am getting oil to those components. If you don't over prolong use the chains literally eat through guides and start chewing through the tensioners. The chains can also stretch, and then you get the dreaded cold start rattle.  I used to see it all the time in 4.6 and 5.4 Ford mod motors.  This another reason why I always change my oil at 3K miles regardless what the manufacturers say.   

Ask any engine builder and they will tell you, after a prolonged period of non operation they prefer you prime the engine. It is a primary reason why we have the ability to turn the engine over and not start it.   

If you're doing it for the sole reason of better lubrication to the timing chains, guides and valvetrain then that's what I was referring to with being better off having oil splashing around than cranking it over at low rpm cranking speed for an extended time.

QuoteAsk any engine builder and they will tell you, after a prolonged period of non operation they prefer you prime the engine.

Ya, but cranking over the engine isn't at all the same as priming it. 

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 20, 2019, 03:13:48 PM

Quote from: SM105K on November 20, 2019, 02:30:40 PM

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 20, 2019, 01:44:32 PM

Quote from: SM105K on November 14, 2019, 08:50:28 AM
My SHO sometimes sits for as many as 10 days without starting.  Before I start it (I call it my dry start protocol), I press the brake and gas to the floor and push and hold the start button.  This allows the engine to spin with over without starting.  I do this for about 10 seconds and then start my SHO like normal.  This allows the oil pressure to build and get oil into the valve train and other areas.  I also do this after every oil change.

I guess I don't understand the logic in doing this???  You're still turning your engine over so what's the difference it it starts right away or your crank it over for 10 seconds?  I would think you're doing more harm than good actually since oil is at least splashing around after it starts.  Not so much when you're cranking at 150-200 rpm.

Turning over the engine at 150 to 200 rpm for 10 seconds creates less friction then a normal sat for along time dry start up.  You will still have oil in main caps and rod bearings ect.  I am not worried about the rotating assembly.  I am worried about the valve train.  These engines have long timing chains, hydraulic tensioners, and nylon chain guides.  When I prime the system, I am getting oil to those components. If you don't over prolong use the chains literally eat through guides and start chewing through the tensioners. The chains can also stretch, and then you get the dreaded cold start rattle.  I used to see it all the time in 4.6 and 5.4 Ford mod motors.  This another reason why I always change my oil at 3K miles regardless what the manufacturers say.   

Ask any engine builder and they will tell you, after a prolonged period of non operation they prefer you prime the engine. It is a primary reason why we have the ability to turn the engine over and not start it.   

If you're doing it for the sole reason of better lubrication to the timing chains, guides and valvetrain then that's what I was referring to with being better off having oil splashing around than cranking it over at low rpm cranking speed for an extended time.

QuoteAsk any engine builder and they will tell you, after a prolonged period of non operation they prefer you prime the engine.

Ya, but cranking over the engine isn't at all the same as priming it.

Cranking it over at low rpm is the exact same thing as priming it.  That is why Ford gives us the ability to do that.  How do you think they prime the engine before first start?

You would be shocked how much oil is moved by the pump even at low rpm.

By all means, do whatever you want to your car.  I have first hand knowledge and experience with these and mod motors.  There is a difference in a dry start and a primed start.       

QuoteCranking it over at low rpm is the exact same thing as priming it.

Ummmm....no it's not.  By your logic just starting it is the same as priming it then too.

QuoteHow do you think they prime the engine before first start

You honestly think FoMoCo does what you're doing as they roll off the assembly line?  More likely is that they have a pressurized oil line they blast the engine with before they install a certain plug or fitting.

QuoteYou would be shocked how much oil is moved by the pump even at low rpm.

So?  You're cranking it at low rpm for 10 seconds and no oil is splashing around at all and you have full oil pressure after a second or two (slightly more time after an oil change) so why crank it for 10 seconds?  The same amount of oil is being delivered per revolution when the engine is running PLUS you have some splash lubrication going on.  Don't you think that's doing more good for your timing chain and guides?  When I think of priming a freshly built engine I think of the special adapter drive you spin the oil pump with a drill through the distributor hole on a small block chevy for example.  When I think of priming an installed engine I think of a pressurized accumulator that you give the engine a pressurized shot of a quart or so of oil.  Neither of those involve rotating the engine.   

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 20, 2019, 04:29:11 PM

QuoteCranking it over at low rpm is the exact same thing as priming it.

Ummmm....no it's not.  By your logic just starting it is the same as priming it then too.

QuoteHow do you think they prime the engine before first start

You honestly think FoMoCo does what you're doing as they roll off the assembly line?  More likely is that they have a pressurized oil line they blast the engine with before they install a certain plug or fitting.

QuoteYou would be shocked how much oil is moved by the pump even at low rpm.

So?  You're cranking it at low rpm for 10 seconds and no oil is splashing around at all and you have full oil pressure after a second or two (slightly more time after an oil change) so why crank it for 10 seconds?  The same amount of oil is being delivered per revolution when the engine is running PLUS you have some splash lubrication going on.  Don't you think that's doing more good for your timing chain and guides?  When I think of priming a freshly built engine I think of the special adapter drive you spin the oil pump with a drill through the distributor hole on a small block chevy for example.  When I think of priming an installed engine I think of a pressurized accumulator that you give the engine a pressurized shot of a quart or so of oil.  Neither of those involve rotating the engine.   

Tell you what.  I have been around mod motors for a long time.  Turning over the motor at low speed does prime the oil pump in these motors.  Want proof?  Hook a mechanical oil gauge to the engine and see for yourself.  I know the truth. 

I only do my dry start procedure if my car has set for a while (usually more then a week). Over time gravity pulls the oil back down out of the heads, chains, guides, ect.... If you start your car daily numerous times, I wouldn't worry about it.  I don't.  My SHO gets started maybe 8 times in a 10 day period.   

Cranking it at low rpm for an extended period of time allows the oil to get into the chains and the guides.  I use the ten second method.  Your logic is wrong because it takes a couple of seconds at 1500 rpm to get the oil up and into the chains and guides.  Then the flinging lubrication....lol.  In those seconds that is where the damage is done.  If you don't believe me, tell me about the contributing factors of chain stretch, chain guide wear, oil pressure chain tensioner wear, and most of all cold start rattle. 

Cold start rattle can be helped buy turning over the engine and "priming" it in.  Even ZSHO said that.  If the cold start rattle is reduced, then guess what?  Drum roll........There is oil pressure and lubrication on the chains and guides from the "low rpm priming"......novel concept huh?

Tell me one other reason by Ford allows us to crank the motor over for extended periods of time without it starting?

Also you live in Minnesota.  The cold climate is why this thread was even started.


 

As noted, not needed if the car is started and driven daily, but it is good habit nonetheless.  Ester oils help in this regard.

Also I believe the engine attempts to start for 10 seconds (at least with keyed ignition) on its own once the START/RUN command is received.  You do not have to hold the key in that position.  In a way it is priming the oil, but not quite, since injectors are not cut off.  For that, the gas pedal MUST be pushed to the floor.

And yes, a true priming system would be a most welcome addition.  Short of that, using low rpm cranking is not a bad way to go.

FYI- As the OP the Topic was specifically targeted on a cold morning startup in the colder winter months thats all!
I appreciate everyone's input on the topic on hand! No Sore points. TIA. Z

Quote from: SM105K on November 21, 2019, 10:35:26 AM

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 20, 2019, 04:29:11 PM

QuoteCranking it over at low rpm is the exact same thing as priming it.

Ummmm....no it's not.  By your logic just starting it is the same as priming it then too.

QuoteHow do you think they prime the engine before first start

You honestly think FoMoCo does what you're doing as they roll off the assembly line?  More likely is that they have a pressurized oil line they blast the engine with before they install a certain plug or fitting.

QuoteYou would be shocked how much oil is moved by the pump even at low rpm.

So?  You're cranking it at low rpm for 10 seconds and no oil is splashing around at all and you have full oil pressure after a second or two (slightly more time after an oil change) so why crank it for 10 seconds?  The same amount of oil is being delivered per revolution when the engine is running PLUS you have some splash lubrication going on.  Don't you think that's doing more good for your timing chain and guides?  When I think of priming a freshly built engine I think of the special adapter drive you spin the oil pump with a drill through the distributor hole on a small block chevy for example.  When I think of priming an installed engine I think of a pressurized accumulator that you give the engine a pressurized shot of a quart or so of oil.  Neither of those involve rotating the engine.   

Tell you what.  I have been around mod motors for a long time.  Turning over the motor at low speed does prime the oil pump in these motors.  Want proof?  Hook a mechanical oil gauge to the engine and see for yourself.  I know the truth. 

I only do my dry start procedure if my car has set for a while (usually more then a week). Over time gravity pulls the oil back down out of the heads, chains, guides, ect.... If you start your car daily numerous times, I wouldn't worry about it.  I don't.  My SHO gets started maybe 8 times in a 10 day period.   

Cranking it at low rpm for an extended period of time allows the oil to get into the chains and the guides.  I use the ten second method.  Your logic is wrong because it takes a couple of seconds at 1500 rpm to get the oil up and into the chains and guides.  Then the flinging lubrication....lol.  In those seconds that is where the damage is done.  If you don't believe me, tell me about the contributing factors of chain stretch, chain guide wear, oil pressure chain tensioner wear, and most of all cold start rattle. 

Cold start rattle can be helped buy turning over the engine and "priming" it in.  Even ZSHO said that.  If the cold start rattle is reduced, then guess what?  Drum roll........There is oil pressure and lubrication on the chains and guides from the "low rpm priming"......novel concept huh?

Tell me one other reason by Ford allows us to crank the motor over for extended periods of time without it starting?

Also you live in Minnesota.  The cold climate is why this thread was even started.

QuoteTell you what.  I have been around mod motors for a long time.  Turning over the motor at low speed does prime the oil pump in these motors.  Want proof?  Hook a mechanical oil gauge to the engine and see for yourself.  I know the truth.

JEEBUS!!!  Who ever said cranking your engine over doesn't build oil pressure?  Where did I say that?  I am unaware of a conventional 4-stroke engine that doesn't build oil pressure when the engine is cranked.  Do you know of one?  And if you've been around mod motors so long surely you're aware of the priming fitting that can be installed on the oil filter housing to PRIME them without cranking the motor over. I have never heard of anyone ever opting to crank their engine over for 10 seconds after a build, re-build or after an engine has been sitting for some time.  Nope, they spin over the oil pump or put a pressurized line to the oil gallery.  But according to you it's all the same.  You should go have a chat with them all and tell them about your magical procedure.

QuoteI only do my dry start procedure if my car has set for a while (usually more then a week). Over time gravity pulls the oil back down out of the heads, chains, guides, ect.... If you start your car daily numerous times, I wouldn't worry about it.  I don't.  My SHO gets started maybe 8 times in a 10 day period.

You obviously don't have much of an understanding on how the top end of an engine is lubricated if you're mocking me for mentioning splash lubrication.  I've already explained why you're incorrectomundo in your line of thinking.  Don't need to do it again.  I'm not saying you're going to wreck your engine by doing what you're doing.  You're just probably doing more harm than good is all.  How much?  Who knows.  Answer me this though.  What do you think would happen to your chains, guides, camshafts....pretty much entire top end if you cranked your engine over indefinitely?  You'd have full oil pressure without any splash lubrication.

QuoteIf you don't believe me, tell me about the contributing factors of chain stretch, chain guide wear, oil pressure chain tensioner wear, and most of all cold start rattle.

Extended oil change intervals and fuel diluted oil (they go hand in hand on GDFI motors) are the biggest factors.  Further down the list is unnecessary engine cranking for 10 seconds.

QuoteTell me one other reason by Ford allows us to crank the motor over for extended periods of time without it starting?

Ya, I can't think of a single other reason why you'd use "flood clear mode" that is not at all exclusive to FoMoCo and has been around for years.  You really got me there....

Going forward though, everytime I fill up my oil filter and START my engine and have full oil pressure and oil splashing around the top end within 2 seconds or so instead of causing needless wear and tear on the engine by cranking it over for ten seconds after an oil change I'll think of you and smile.  I want you to know that man.

I think we need to move on! I appreciate your cooperation. TIA. Z 

Quote from: SHOdded on November 21, 2019, 11:27:35 AM
As noted, not needed if the car is started and driven daily, but it is good habit nonetheless.  Ester oils help in this regard.

Also I believe the engine attempts to start for 10 seconds (at least with keyed ignition) on its own once the START/RUN command is received.  You do not have to hold the key in that position.  In a way it is priming the oil, but not quite, since injectors are not cut off.  For that, the gas pedal MUST be pushed to the floor.

And yes, a true priming system would be a most welcome addition.  Short of that, using low rpm cranking is not a bad way to go.

QuoteAlso I believe the engine attempts to start for 10 seconds (at least with keyed ignition) on its own once the START/RUN command is received.

FWIW, That's not my experience with our push button system.  The one time I couldn't get my car started in sub-zero temp was due to it only cranking over for 4-5 seconds at a time.  As soon as it started to fire it just stopped cranking.  I tried it 2-3 times after that and it did the same thing.  I had a battery that was going bad though so maybe that's why it didn't crank longer.

Quote from: SilvererSHO on November 21, 2019, 12:12:53 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on November 21, 2019, 11:27:35 AM
As noted, not needed if the car is started and driven daily, but it is good habit nonetheless.  Ester oils help in this regard.

Also I believe the engine attempts to start for 10 seconds (at least with keyed ignition) on its own once the START/RUN command is received.  You do not have to hold the key in that position.  In a way it is priming the oil, but not quite, since injectors are not cut off.  For that, the gas pedal MUST be pushed to the floor.

And yes, a true priming system would be a most welcome addition.  Short of that, using low rpm cranking is not a bad way to go.

QuoteAlso I believe the engine attempts to start for 10 seconds (at least with keyed ignition) on its own once the START/RUN command is received.

FWIW, That's not my experience with our push button system.  The one time I couldn't get my car started in sub-zero temp was due to it only cranking over for 4-5 seconds at a time.  As soon as it started to fire it just stopped cranking.  I tried it 2-3 times after that and it did the same thing.  I had a battery that was going bad though so maybe that's why it didn't crank longer.

It sounds like you're battery crapped out and otherwise it would of exhibited an extended crank period as kindly mentioned above by SHOdded.
I think we need to move on .  Z

I usually just start it.............but I learned of this a while back when I used to drive it during the cold winter months.  It was a mustang owner talking about his cold start method.  Both pedals to the floor and hold ignition to crank the engine over without starting it to build some oil pressure.  Never did it for more than a few seconds but this cut my cold start rattles in half.  Didn't always prevent one but I didn't try for 10 seconds. 

After an oil change, I would just start it...and wow it sounds like crap for a couple seconds.  Started letting the car sit for an hour or longer before starting it....cut that to about a second of sounding like trash instead of 2.  Next time I'll do this for 10 seconds and see if it fixes that problem.

A lot of times things just plain work when theoretically they shouldn't and vice versa.  In the end though I don't give a rat's @$$ what Joe Shmo does...if it makes sense to me I do it...if not screw it. 

Quote from: 802SHO on November 21, 2019, 01:04:58 PM
I usually just start it.............but I learned of this a while back when I used to drive it during the cold winter months.  It was a mustang owner talking about his cold start method.  Both pedals to the floor and hold ignition to crank the engine over without starting it to build some oil pressure.  Never did it for more than a few seconds but this cut my cold start rattles in half.  Didn't always prevent one but I didn't try for 10 seconds. 

After an oil change, I would just start it...and wow it sounds like crap for a couple seconds.  Started letting the car sit for an hour or longer before starting it....cut that to about a second of sounding like trash instead of 2.  Next time I'll do this for 10 seconds and see if it fixes that problem.

A lot of times things just plain work when theoretically they shouldn't and vice versa.  In the end though I don't give a rat's @$$ what Joe Shmo does...if it makes sense to me I do it...if not screw it.

Andrew,

You are like me and dont daily your SHO.  When was the last time you started your SHO?

Quote from: SM105K on November 21, 2019, 01:13:27 PM

Quote from: 802SHO on November 21, 2019, 01:04:58 PM
I usually just start it.............but I learned of this a while back when I used to drive it during the cold winter months.  It was a mustang owner talking about his cold start method.  Both pedals to the floor and hold ignition to crank the engine over without starting it to build some oil pressure.  Never did it for more than a few seconds but this cut my cold start rattles in half.  Didn't always prevent one but I didn't try for 10 seconds. 

After an oil change, I would just start it...and wow it sounds like crap for a couple seconds.  Started letting the car sit for an hour or longer before starting it....cut that to about a second of sounding like trash instead of 2.  Next time I'll do this for 10 seconds and see if it fixes that problem.

A lot of times things just plain work when theoretically they shouldn't and vice versa.  In the end though I don't give a rat's @$$ what Joe Shmo does...if it makes sense to me I do it...if not screw it.

Andrew,

You are like me and dont daily your SHO.  When was the last time you started your SHO?

Almost a week ago since moving it to make the splitter "how to".  I'll need to start it again and still need to put gas in it...may have to do that with gas cans...thought I would get another day to drive it to the gas station but it looks like that might not happen.  Still need to change the oil as well for storage.  So I'll be starting it a few times.  Like yours its kept on a battery tender. 

Sort of perfect timing...heres Jordan in his latest video...doing this exact measure...a couple times in a row before starting his car for the first time since his injector #6 replacement.  Its at the end. 

https://youtu.be/9eia1manjY0

BUT BUT BUT........dry firing/priming does nothing.

Weird...after Jordan's "clear flood mode/prime" start there was little to no top end chatter in the video.  Just like my car, when I do the same thing. 

Andrew you know about chatter, do the dry start method and report back what happens. 

Quote from: SM105K on November 21, 2019, 04:42:00 PM
BUT BUT BUT........dry firing/priming does nothing.

Weird...after Jordan's "clear flood mode/prime" start there was little to no top end chatter in the video.  Just like my car, when I do the same thing. 

Andrew you know about chatter, do the dry start method and report back what happens.

Wasn't even a measure to clear the flood. Basically my reasoning for it was to sling some oil on the cylinder as the fuel wash down on the cylinder could had stripped it of oil. As far as doing it to prime the top end I can totally see it being a thing because the the oil will slowly fall off components and you can theoretically cause excess where starting it when not primed. Also this was to prime the fuel system. Weird side effect which is blatantly obvious when you have a stuck open injector is that the lines off the hpfp have absolutely no backpressure on them and you don't even need to depressurize the system. So exactly same reason I put fogging oil in the cylinder and dry fired the car was to make sure #6 had adequate lubrication before having it see the higher idle RPMs