Quote from: derfdog15 on January 02, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
TIP desired is at 204.73 kpa I believe. The scales are all a bit different it seems on livelink.

Still on the 17.4 psi wastegate spring, correct.

Commanded boost is righty abroind 15 psi right now but it may be possible to bump it a bit based on the recent mods!

Nice! I ended up at 14.5PSI, but my application required the 18.85PSI springs, otherwise the gate would hang open and my wastegate duty cycle would climb too high. I'm wondering if my springs were mismarked or out of tolerance. A spring preload adjuster on the Tial would be ideal.

Good luck with your fine tuning!

EDIT: I think I just came up with an idea for a preload adjuster, but it will probably take me a few days to work through the details.

Thought I would share this... this is a datalog from the wastegate setup on my car with an MBC along with Brad's tune.. Couple things to note...

1: The knock sensor is still wanting to add more timing through the whole run...
2: Common with his tunes I couldn't get traction until I hit 10mph...
3: This was a stand still launch at around 1700 rpm's...
4: I spun on the upshift from 1'st to 2nd gear...
5: The MAP sensor is reading more boost ALMOST through the whole run than what is commanded..

Not my best launch but look at how steady the fuel pressure is through the whole run along with the AFR's... also look at how flat that boost curve is through the gears..

With this tune I torched everyone from a stop light... vettes, srt's, mustangs, SS's, not much could touch me going 0-60..


Now that all being said.. one of these days I am going to create a thread with datalogs from Unleashed, LMS, and Brad so people can see the difference in how tuners approach tuning this cars... and the effect it has on them.

Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Thought I would share this... this is a datalog from the wastegate setup on my car with an MBC along with Brad's tune..

Which Tial spring combo are you using with your MBC and this data log?


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Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Thought I would share this... this is a datalog from the wastegate setup on my car with an MBC along with Brad's tune.. Couple things to note...

1: The knock sensor is still wanting to add more timing through the whole run...
2: Common with his tunes I couldn't get traction until I hit 10mph...
3: This was a stand still launch at around 1700 rpm's...
4: I spun on the upshift from 1'st to 2nd gear...
5: The MAP sensor is reading more boost ALMOST through the whole run than what is commanded..

Not my best launch but look at how steady the fuel pressure is through the whole run along with the AFR's... also look at how flat that boost curve is through the gears..

With this tune I torched everyone from a stop light... vettes, srt's, mustangs, SS's, not much could touch me going 0-60..


Now that all being said.. one of these days I am going to create a thread with datalogs from Unleashed, LMS, and Brad so people can see the difference in how tuners approach tuning this cars... and the effect it has on them.

Well get it done already...I love some of the analytics you guys do it can really put things into perspective...Yeah these things are tough from a dig with the small turbos and awd

I've noticed that the 2010-12' SHO's have a little different boost logic and doesn't have the same scalars available in the tunes as the 2013+ cars but it's not a detriment at all.

And I also think the way you were manipulating the boost reference with your MBC was having an effect on your elevated boost but either way your car was strong

Quote from: MiWiAu on January 03, 2017, 10:46:44 AM

Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Thought I would share this... this is a datalog from the wastegate setup on my car with an MBC along with Brad's tune..

Which Tial spring combo are you using with your MBC and this data log?


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15.95 with the Yellow and Blue spring.

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 03, 2017, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Thought I would share this... this is a datalog from the wastegate setup on my car with an MBC along with Brad's tune.. Couple things to note...

1: The knock sensor is still wanting to add more timing through the whole run...
2: Common with his tunes I couldn't get traction until I hit 10mph...
3: This was a stand still launch at around 1700 rpm's...
4: I spun on the upshift from 1'st to 2nd gear...
5: The MAP sensor is reading more boost ALMOST through the whole run than what is commanded..

Not my best launch but look at how steady the fuel pressure is through the whole run along with the AFR's... also look at how flat that boost curve is through the gears..

With this tune I torched everyone from a stop light... vettes, srt's, mustangs, SS's, not much could touch me going 0-60..


Now that all being said.. one of these days I am going to create a thread with datalogs from Unleashed, LMS, and Brad so people can see the difference in how tuners approach tuning this cars... and the effect it has on them.

Well get it done already...I love some of the analytics you guys do it can really put things into perspective...Yeah these things are tough from a dig with the small turbos and awd

I've noticed that the 2010-12' SHO's have a little different boost logic and doesn't have the same scalars available in the tunes as the 2013+ cars but it's not a detriment at all.

And I also think the way you were manipulating the boost reference with your MBC was having an effect on your elevated boost but either way your car was strong

The MBC had some interesting effects... I believe.. and I think my logs prove it out, that if you take the time to dial it in with a the MBC, you can see good mid range torque increase by riding out those spikes at the shift just a little bit more than the WG by itself will allow... at the expense of fuel pressure of course.

But I spent quite a bit of time tuning that little bastard in there... run, datalog, adjust, repeat.... run, datalog, adjust, repeat... and you need to know how your car responds to lower temps.. so if you spike too hard on a tune that is not designed to handle those spikes you fuel pressure tanks.. or you can tighten the MBC all the way done effectively getting rid of the WG by not letting it open.. tried that... FRP dropped bellow 500 psi... afrs spiked.. stfts maxxed out.. car sh!t itself and closed the throttle to prevent the big bang... fun fun...

Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 11:14:37 AM

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 03, 2017, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: StealBlueSho on January 03, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
or you can tighten the MBC all the way done effectively getting rid of the WG by not letting it open.. tried that... FRP dropped bellow 500 psi... afrs spiked.. stfts maxxed out.. car sh!t itself and closed the throttle to prevent the big bang... fun fun...

That's kinda why I don't recommend the average person use the MBC on top of the mod...When you set the MBC to bleed the reference boost signal in order for the Gate mod to not open you are bleeding off some of the boost reference that would otherwise go through the factory boost solenoid and onto the factory turbo wastegate to open it which will slow the turbo down and lower boost

I think the MBC route is a nice option for a car that may need fine tuning between the spring combinations, or for eaking out just a bit more power BUT as mentioned for a DD type of car, I think it may be overkill. Would be a nice option for a race-tune type of setup.

Per AJP's request, I am swapping to the 15.95 spring pressure combo, and running a slightly higher E percentage than I have been running. I will keep the thread updated once I get the next set of logging done. This is partially also to see some more insight can be shed on the predicament that MiWiAu has with his spring combos

Quote from: derfdog15 on January 03, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
I think the MBC route is a nice option for a car that may need fine tuning between the spring combinations, or for eaking out just a bit more power BUT as mentioned for a DD type of car, I think it may be overkill. Would be a nice option for a race-tune type of setup.

Per AJP's request, I am swapping to the 15.95 spring pressure combo, and running a slightly higher E percentage than I have been running. I will keep the thread updated once I get the next set of logging done. This is partially also to see some more insight can be shed on the predicament that MiWiAu has with his spring combos

Woot. Looking forward to your results!

At some point, I'm also planning to catalog the free length, spring rates, and install preloads of the springs in my kit. Tial hasn't been very helpful in providing nominal values, but at least we'll have a single point of reference.

Also, FYI, I ordered some parts to MacGyver (or possibly MacGruber) a spring preload adjuster for the Tial, but it will take some time to receive everything. I also need to measure the internal clearances on the MV-S from the diaphragm to the bottom side of the cap to see how much room I have for my mechanism when the valve is open and springs are compressed.

What I'm thinking is making a preload adjuster that will thread in through the center cap threads and interface only with the small diameter gate spring.

Using the alternative spring chart I posted earlier, every single Tial pressure option has an alternate spring combo that utilizes a small diameter spring. If this works, it would allow you to alter the spring preload on the small spring to fine tune the cracking pressure without having to modify the boost reference with a MBC.

Of course, this will only be possible if there is sufficient clearance in the gate once the valve has been actuated and the springs don't sack out when additional preload is added...


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Quote from: derfdog15 on January 03, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
I think the MBC route is a nice option for a car that may need fine tuning between the spring combinations, or for eaking out just a bit more power BUT as mentioned for a DD type of car, I think it may be overkill. Would be a nice option for a race-tune type of setup.

Per AJP's request, I am swapping to the 15.95 spring pressure combo, and running a slightly higher E percentage than I have been running. I will keep the thread updated once I get the next set of logging done. This is partially also to see some more insight can be shed on the predicament that MiWiAu has with his spring combos

But the thing is, is I can change target boost by whatever. A single KPA to get closer or further away from the spring rating of the Gate mod. So there really isn't a need for the MBC....Steal blue was using the MBC to make his own adjustments so he didn't have to bother me which he really wasn't lol

Quote from: MiWiAu on January 03, 2017, 01:10:14 PM

Quote from: derfdog15 on January 03, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
I think the MBC route is a nice option for a car that may need fine tuning between the spring combinations, or for eaking out just a bit more power BUT as mentioned for a DD type of car, I think it may be overkill. Would be a nice option for a race-tune type of setup.

Per AJP's request, I am swapping to the 15.95 spring pressure combo, and running a slightly higher E percentage than I have been running. I will keep the thread updated once I get the next set of logging done. This is partially also to see some more insight can be shed on the predicament that MiWiAu has with his spring combos

Woot. Looking forward to your results!

At some point, I'm also planning to catalog the free length, spring rates, and install preloads of the springs in my kit. Tial hasn't been very helpful in providing nominal values, but at least we'll have a single point of reference.

Also, FYI, I ordered some parts to MacGyver (or possibly MacGruber) a spring preload adjuster for the Tial, but it will take some time to receive everything. I also need to measure the internal clearances on the MV-S from the diaphragm to the bottom side of the cap to see how much room I have for my mechanism when the valve is open and springs are compressed.

What I'm thinking is making a preload adjuster that will thread in through the center cap threads and interface only with the small diameter gate spring.

Using the alternative spring chart I posted earlier, every single Tial pressure option has an alternate spring combo that utilizes a small diameter spring. If this works, it would allow you to alter the spring preload on the small spring to fine tune the cracking pressure without having to modify the boost reference with a MBC.

Of course, this will only be possible if there is sufficient clearance in the gate once the valve has been actuated and the springs don't sack out when additional preload is added...


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Sounds like an interesting idea, keep us posted!

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 03, 2017, 01:11:41 PM

Quote from: derfdog15 on January 03, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
I think the MBC route is a nice option for a car that may need fine tuning between the spring combinations, or for eaking out just a bit more power BUT as mentioned for a DD type of car, I think it may be overkill. Would be a nice option for a race-tune type of setup.

Per AJP's request, I am swapping to the 15.95 spring pressure combo, and running a slightly higher E percentage than I have been running. I will keep the thread updated once I get the next set of logging done. This is partially also to see some more insight can be shed on the predicament that MiWiAu has with his spring combos

But the thing is, is I can change target boost by whatever. A single KPA to get closer or further away from the spring rating of the Gate mod. So there really isn't a need for the MBC....Steal blue was using the MBC to make his own adjustments so he didn't have to bother me which he really wasn't lol

Gotcha, I'll let you do the hard work then, and I'll just drive the heck out of it ;p

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 03, 2017, 01:11:41 PM

But the thing is, is I can change target boost by whatever. A single KPA to get closer or further away from the spring rating of the Gate mod. So there really isn't a need for the MBC....Steal blue was using the MBC to make his own adjustments so he didn't have to bother me which he really wasn't lol

Hmm... maybe you can convince me that I'm wasting my time with this preload idea.

On my Explorer, the 15.95 and both 17.4 spring combos were causing the gate to hang open on shifts when we were at 14PSI target boost, and the 18.85 spring combo didn't actuate at all on the 1-2 shift until we bumped the target boost to 14.5PSI.

Even then, my fuel pressure at the 1-2 shift was dropping to ~1100 psi vs ~1900 psi at the 2-3 shift. Granted, this was with an ambient temp of 8.6*F LOL, so pressures will probably improve with warmer temps.

It seems to be shaping up that my spring settings are somewhat of an outlier, but here's my general question: wouldn't it be more ideal to tune to max boost and spark allowed by KR and fuel pressure, then dial in the boost regulator (for further improvements with fuel, MAP, and KR) with spring preload, rather than try to tune the regulator with desired boost? It seems like the latter may force a decision between too much boost required to actuate the regulator (and lower fuel/higher KR) or running lower boost to not overpower the gate springs and thus compromising optimal power output.

At least in my particular situation, I'm thinking my optimized spring combo is somewhere between my 17.4 and 18.85 springs, and going to the lower spring combo with a slight increase in preload might help improve the fuel pressure drop on my 1-2 shift.

I guess it depends on one's definition of "ideal" solution. One way (preload or MBC) is relatively high effort for the end user compared to tweaking the target boost, and it would also have the potential to remove another variable from the control of the tuner, which I could see being a potential issue as well by increasing the possibility of user error.

I guess I will proceed on this preload thing with caution, unless you tell me it's a dumb idea.





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Here is a pic of my boost reference line/vacuum reference line for anyone that needs it. This is from when I had just the boost gauge hooked up. Since install of the wastegate and bov I ran a 3/8" fuel line to a cross near the firewall a d have grabbed reference for all items (bov, wastegate, and boost gauge) from the cross.

Thanks, derf.

I bit the bullet and decided to go the more expensive route, with the hopes of added convenience: http://www.stage3motorsports.com//TS-0720-1005-2013-2016-F150-3-5L-EcoBoost-Turbosmart-MAP-Sensor-Boost-Reference-Adapter.html

I contacted Turbosmart directly, and they basically said it would probably work, and that I shouldn't have any issues with still fitting the engine cover. Guess we'll see soon. LOL

Looking forward to results, MiWiAu.    Probably won't affect the MAP readings, but would like to have field data to bear that out.  Good point about the appearance cover.  Run nekked!!!