For some odd reason I'm getting knock retard even though I'm spraying meth through a snow performance stage 3 kit. I'm running 93 octane with VP racing fuel M1 meth 100%. But for some odd reason I'm getting between 6 to 8 degrees of knock. I checked the knock sensor wires and the black wire did show signs of chaffing and a small area of the wire was exposed. It fixed the wire and added wireloom to protect it. I thought that was the culprit but it wasn't!!! Still getting knock... any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for looking
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 03:37:01 PM
For some odd reason I'm getting knock retard even though I'm spraying meth through a snow performance stage 3 kit. I'm running 93 octane with VP racing fuel M1 meth 100%. But for some odd reason I'm getting between 6 to 8 degrees of knock. I checked the knock sensor wires and the black wire did show signs of chaffing and a small area of the wire was exposed. It fixed the wire and added wireloom to protect it. I thought that was the culprit but it wasn't!!! Still getting knock... any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for looking
Do you know for sure the pump is operational?
Too much meth can cause wall wetting which can cause knock.
Post some logs, it will provide insight...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes I check the pump and it's working fine. I'll post some logs when I get home. Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm spraying too much (350ml nozzle)... but I'm starting to spray 3 psi
Here's my logs...
To followup on FoMoCo's post: Has the KR been there the entire time you have been tuned for meth? A pump issue or a kink in the line have been the most frequent culprits hardware wise. Then there's nozzle size and placement to consider.
Check the pcm to see if it shows any misfire events. Hopefully compression is good.
I've started getting more and more knock as we continue to tune. I'd say the last 3 tunes. My nozzle placement is in a throttle body plate.
If no other options develop, consider retuning to a nometh tune to see if the KR is still there. How does the engine oil look/smell, looking for fuel in particular?
You are in a throttle plate? I want to say all but the direct port guys are running pre-blade nozzles, so you are possibly in a bit of less common territory.
Do you have a check valve in there so that the vacuum behind the TB is not sucking meth from the line before you start spraying?
3psi seems a bit on the low side, most people recommend 6psi start point.
Combination of the two could have your with more meth being injected than planned and causing an issue?
I do like SHodded's idea of returning to no meth tune and verifying if KR is present before you keep running meth tune. You want the car 100% solid before you add meth.
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
Yes I check the pump and it's working fine. I'll post some logs when I get home. Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm spraying too much (350ml nozzle)... but I'm starting to spray 3 psi
Isn't spraying at 3 psi a way bit early!! Z
Not sure, the progressive kit has a ramp up volume control.. but 3 psi is WAY lower than I'd expect.
*If* the volume of meth ramps to fast or has to high a initial flow it could be setting or even small amounts of fluid on the caps increasing g the compression.
I'd back off the onset to 5+ Pounds and retest..
Here's a datalog spraying meth at 6psi... still have knock. Yes I do have a second solenoid to stop the vacuum from sucking in meth.
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
Here's a datalog spraying meth at 6psi... still have knock. Yes I do have a second solenoid to stop the vacuum from sucking in meth.
It's pulling a ton of fuel and still well rich of commanded AFR.
Elevation is 164ft
Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
I ordered some Boostane to add to my fuel to see if the 93 pump gas or meth is junk. Hopefully it'll come in today.
Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 09:27:40 AM
I ordered some Boostane to add to my fuel to see if the 93 pump gas or meth is junk. Hopefully it'll come in today.
Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
I don't think octane is the issue, your fueling is out of whack.
The car cant pull enough fuel fast enough to hit your targets.
Lack of meth atomization could be an issue so I would check that nozzle flow.
I pulled the throttle body plate off and put the car under boost. The nozzles had a good flow pattern. So I don't think that's an issue. I've checked everything I could think of. I'm out of options which sucks.
Maybe Brad will chime in on his thoughts...
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 09:27:40 AM
I ordered some Boostane to add to my fuel to see if the 93 pump gas or meth is junk. Hopefully it'll come in today.
Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
So there is something funky there.. for sure... you are not running a ton of boost and spark is conservative but you are pulling 8 degrees of spark...
IE. You are commanding 196.98kpa of boost (13.87psi) and hitting 19 degrees of spark on the multigear run and 23 on the third gear pull.. Brad has mine at 205kpa (15psi) and 28 degrees of advance and I have no knock retard.
So its normal to run a little richer than the command AFR when the meth starts spraying as it takes a split second for the ECU to pull the data from the widebands and make fueling adjustments. You are pulling about 15% fuel through the widebands but combined with your LTFT you are really only pulling around 11%.. which is NOT bad for spraying meth... I usually spray a bit more more than that..
What stands out is obviously the 8+ degrees of KR but how the meth is being delivered... its very inconsistent.. at least on bank 1.. the widebands should have a pretty linear appearance through the run (unless you are using the throttle to control load which you are NOT).. example would be that on the 3rd gear pull your wideband has a pretty gnarly upturn and i don't understand why.
It would be beneficial to see what bank 2 looks like honestly. Unless you are direct port meth like ZSHO, then bank 1 tends to get more meth than bank 2.. bank 2 could not be getting much spray so its knocking? We would need to see a log with bank 2's stats... Wideband (STFT and LTFT) along with lambase and lambda.
I don't see a fueling issue here from the standpoint of HPFP, LPFP, and how your car is reacting to the spray its getting. COuld it be a bad tank of gas? I have had this happen... scary as F when spraying to get a bad tank of gas...Maybe bad meth? Are you running 100% meth?
At this point, I am pretty sure the pump appears to be working.. but we need to see bank 2.
Tooks some screen caps of what I am talking about.. the first picture is a 3rd gear pull from mine... notice the blue line is pretty linear once its stabilizes? Thats my wide bands..
the other screen cap is yours.. your wideband is the gold line..
the delivery is not smooth... still don't see why you are pulling that much KR...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 01, 2017, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 09:27:40 AM
I ordered some Boostane to add to my fuel to see if the 93 pump gas or meth is junk. Hopefully it'll come in today.
Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting.
during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.
what is your elevation ?
others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
I don't think octane is the issue, your fueling is out of whack.
The car cant pull enough fuel fast enough to hit your targets.
Lack of meth atomization could be an issue so I would check that nozzle flow.
The meth atomization is probably a good thought, which is why i am curious about bank 2... I wonder how its trims look compared to bank 1... if its not atomizing well enough, then one bank will be getting a piss pot full of meth while another is probably not...
Its typical on meth cars to run rich briefly while the ECU's catch up to the WB's information... keeping the throttle wide open alleviates this to some degree... Brad and I were working to get that resolved but messing with the speed density tables messes with a whole lot of junk on the 2010-2012 cars... It messes with the load calculations which I suspect a lot of other adjustments that the ECU makes are derived from.. shifting points was one of those...
I'm kinda hoping its bad gas and that the boostane wiill fix the issue. I'm running Mobil 93 octane and VP race fuel M1 at 100%. I don't know why the bank 1 is getting inconsistent meth. I'm wondering if I'm injecting to close to the intake and it's not atomizing enough yet.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 11:31:31 AM
I'm kinda hoping its bad gas and that the boostane wiill fix the issue. I'm running Mobil 93 octane and VP race fuel M1 at 100%. I don't know why the bank 1 is getting inconsistent meth. I'm wondering if I'm injecting to close to the intake and it's not atomizing enough yet.
If you suspect its bad gas, I would just detune it until your next fill up... if you have E85 around, you could attempt to throw a couple gallons into it. I had to do that once when I got craptastic gas once. Just monitor your fuel pressure if you do... you don't want to knock with the low fuel pressure... actually... just detune it.. as much KR as your are getting ignore my comment about E85... lol
If I remember correctly bank 1 is the firewall side and bank 2 is the radiator side.
I know when I got my induction cleaning done on my intake manifold the #1 cylinder was completely spotless while the others still had some deposits left on them.
Which leaves me to believe a majority of the cleaning agent was sucked in here. Which might be the same case because of the throttle body adapter your using.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170901/e467949c1d0f44d13e0c7375b24f7e21.jpg)
Where did you guys install your nozzles?
Here's the second meth tune... it looked much better I think.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:31:15 PM
Where did you guys install your nozzles?
*Typically* in the hot pipe about 4 or so inches from the thottle assembly..
show us a pic of your nozzle placement when you have time. the Atomization idea has legs, or impacted diversion of the spray does as well.
Here's a pic of my throttle plate setup.
Wow... looks impressive... but you are literally spraying AFTER the throttle... not saying that's right or wrong... but there is no time for atomization to happen...
Now I am really curious about bank 2...
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Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:37:21 PM
Here's the second meth tune... it looked much better I think.
Yes yes.. much better... I wouldn't be too concerned with those. I wonder what was changed...
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
Here's a pic of my throttle plate setup.
in the spacer .. that a neat idea actually. what size nozzle @ what pump psi ?
the Spark is still on the low side in my amateur opinion. Spark1 is 19 or so so avg and Spark2 is 21 or so on average. The temp drop is not very rapid either.
The only thing I can see from my arm-chair is that the STFT peak reading is right in the middle of the knock +1 reading. Now +1 is not actually knock .. so grain of salt that .. but the ECU is thinking it needs to pull based on other readings.
Maybe that's the issue. Snow Performance offers the throttle plate for the F150. So I had one made. So what about the direct injection meth kits. They're injecting directly into the intake runners so they can't have much time to atomize.
I did get gas after the 7th tune. But the 7th tune is when I started to get more knock. So not sure where the issue is
Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 01, 2017, 01:06:22 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:37:21 PM
Here's the second meth tune... it looked much better I think.
Yes yes.. much better... I wouldn't be too concerned with those. I wonder what was changed...
I'm running (2) 175ml nozzles and not sure on what the psi is the Snow Performance pump. The primary nozzle starts to spray at 6psi and maxes out at 7psi. The power nozzle starts at 7psi and maxes out at 8psi.
Quote from: TopherSho on September 01, 2017, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
Here's a pic of my throttle plate setup.
in the spacer .. that a neat idea actually. what size nozzle @ what pump psi ?
Here's the 7th log where the knock started getting worse.
Quote from: TopherSho on September 01, 2017, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
Here's a pic of my throttle plate setup.
in the spacer .. that a neat idea actually. what size nozzle @ what pump psi ?
It is def a cool idea for simpler install and one I am very curious about myself. But I have a feeling it is leading to some of the problem as it likely does not atomize or mix the meth in the air as well. It may require a slightly different tune to account for location/atomization.?
Back to basics though..
OP, Have you pulled the METH system or disabled it and run a non meth tune to verify if you have KR without the Meth being involved? It would be a very good idea to verify your car's baseline situation to help narrow things down and get you rockin n rollin with Meth long term.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 02:02:01 PM
Maybe that's the issue. Snow Performance offers the throttle plate for the F150. So I had one made. So what about the direct injection meth kits. They're injecting directly into the intake runners so they can't have much time to atomize.
True, but direct port injection you are getting equal meth to every cylinder regardless of atomization. In a single nozzle, atomization has a larger effect on equal dispersion to all cylinders..
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 02:22:16 PM
I'm running (2) 175ml nozzles and not sure on what the psi is the Snow Performance pump. The primary nozzle starts to spray at 6psi and maxes out at 7psi. The power nozzle starts at 7psi and maxes out at 8psi.
Quote from: TopherSho on September 01, 2017, 01:37:10 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
Here's a pic of my throttle plate setup.
in the spacer .. that a neat idea actually. what size nozzle @ what pump psi ?
Default psi of the pump should be 270-285 with a max of 290-300. your nozzle Combined output is 350ml which is LESS than mine (375ml) so you are at less volume combined.
so that leaves us ::
-gas issue
-sprays are not vaporizing enough
-spray jet-streams are interfering/colliding with each other and not vaporizing?? (pulling that one out of my a$$)
hmmm
how long have you ran the nozzles in the spacer for? are their pauses or gaps in either spray if you run it for 30 seconds?
Conjecture :: I wonder if the power nozzle ramps up? or is full on ? .. maybe the spike and knock bump is from the second nozzle suddenly coming online ?
I know you may hate to try this...But you are the only one I think that has the throttle plate adapter...Although it's very nice and clean looking it's making me wonder. ANd like SBS was saying maybe it's not allowing the meth to mix as well. I guess if you had the nozzles installed earlier in the intake tubing the meth and aircharge would mix more and be delivered more homogenously
Another thing I was thinking. I can change the knock sensor logic in the tune and you can add the DMR items in livelink for individual knock sensors 1 through 6 if they are available for your strategy and I think they should be...Then we can see if there is a certain cylinder or more that are recording the Knock retard.
If there is an odd cylinder do that then that may tell us that the meth is not mixed up well and it's a delivery issue possibly from using the throttle plate....So you could do that or relocate the nozzles to charge piping pre throttle body
Quote from: AJP turbo on September 01, 2017, 02:51:51 PM
I know you may hate to try this...But you are the only one I think that has the throttle plate adapter...Although it's very nice and clean looking it's making me wonder. ANd like SBS was saying maybe it's not allowing the meth to mix as well. I guess if you had the nozzles installed earlier in the intake tubing the meth and aircharge would mix more and be delivered more homogenously
Another thing I was thinking. I can change the knock sensor logic in the tune and you can add the DMR items in livelink for individual knock sensors 1 through 6 if they are available for your strategy and I think they should be...Then we can see if there is a certain cylinder or more that are recording the Knock retard.
If there is an odd cylinder do that then that may tell us that the meth is not mixed up well and it's a delivery issue possibly from using the throttle plate....So you could do that or relocate the nozzles to charge piping pre throttle body
^ The individual knock sensor DMR would be ideal .. +1 this a bunch! /wave at AJP/
I've always run the meth with a spacer plate. The power nozzle ramps up just like the primary nozzle. Starts at 7psi and maxes out at 8psi. So its maxed out extremely fast. Yes the nozzles spray good for at least 45 seconds without any pause. I tested that already.
I just got off the phone with PROMETH which is the company that makes the direct port meth system for the SHO. They informed me that spraying meth while using a throttle body spacer is a bad idea. They actually tested using clear piping and verified that the meth was all being sprayed to the back wall of the intake. So I guess I'll be taking the hot pipes off again to have them setup for meth. Can someone send me a pic of their setup so I can find the proper location for the nozzles.... Thanks for all your help guys. I'll give an update once I get the hot pipes back and do some datalogs.
I want a clear intake manifold and throttle body!
My order of boostane just came in. I'd like to mix some in the tank to see if the extra octane cures the knock since the location of my meth nozzles isn't ideal and it's not providing all the cylinders an even amount of meth. Here's a link to a video of the product... Let me know your thoughts good or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0)
On a side note... Brad used an SAT word today! The new word of the day is homogeneous!
For real, glad you have a clear cut place to start trouble shooting! I have my nozzle between the noise maker and the rubber connecting coupler on the stock intake pipe.
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Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 04:19:37 PM
My order of boostane just came in. I'd like to mix some in the tank to see if the extra octane cures the knock since the location of my meth nozzles isn't ideal and it's not providing all the cylinders an even amount of meth. Here's a link to a video of the product... Let me know your thoughts good or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0)
Be it my humble opinion I think it will raise the knock threshold a little, but you will still be suffering MUCH lower spark timing that you should be getting @350ml spray.
I'd save it for race day, plug the two holes in the throttle spacer and keep it in place and drop in a temp pipe or pipe extender and bung it there and re-test.
For reference here is the on-the-cheap solution I came up with to avoid spending 200$ on a single hot-pipe or 400$ on a full set..
(http://i67.tinypic.com/f9jwoj.jpg)
Ok thanks!! What I'll do is stagger them so they're not spraying into each other. Hopefully this resolves my issue with knock. What's your thoughts on the Boostane?
I'm running hot pipes so I'll just install two bungs on my pipes
Quote from: TopherSho on September 01, 2017, 05:02:59 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 04:19:37 PM
My order of boostane just came in. I'd like to mix some in the tank to see if the extra octane cures the knock since the location of my meth nozzles isn't ideal and it's not providing all the cylinders an even amount of meth. Here's a link to a video of the product... Let me know your thoughts good or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0)
Be it my humble opinion I think it will raise the knock threshold a little, but you will still be suffering MUCH lower spark timing that you should be getting @350ml spray.
I'd save it for race day, plug the two holes in the throttle spacer and keep it in place and drop in a temp pipe or pipe extender and bung it there and re-test.
For reference here is the on-the-cheap solution I came up with to avoid spending 200$ on a single hot-pipe or 400$ on a full set..
(http://i67.tinypic.com/f9jwoj.jpg)
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 05:09:22 PM
I'm running hot pipes so I'll just install two bungs on my pipes
Quote from: TopherSho on September 01, 2017, 05:02:59 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 04:19:37 PM
My order of boostane just came in. I'd like to mix some in the tank to see if the extra octane cures the knock since the location of my meth nozzles isn't ideal and it's not providing all the cylinders an even amount of meth. Here's a link to a video of the product... Let me know your thoughts good or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0)
Be it my humble opinion I think it will raise the knock threshold a little, but you will still be suffering MUCH lower spark timing that you should be getting @350ml spray.
I'd save it for race day, plug the two holes in the throttle spacer and keep it in place and drop in a temp pipe or pipe extender and bung it there and re-test.
For reference here is the on-the-cheap solution I came up with to avoid spending 200$ on a single hot-pipe or 400$ on a full set..
(http://i67.tinypic.com/f9jwoj.jpg)
Game on then brother! Post new logs!
@-trophersho looking good!! I would add some T-Bolts clamps for added security. Z
$3.00 ea plus free shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mishimoto-Stainless-Steel-T-Bolt-Coupler-Clamp-3-MMCLAMP-3-/272678959478?epid=662447943&hash=item3f7ceeb976:g:5pcAAOSwONBZCqfC&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mishimoto-Stainless-Steel-T-Bolt-Coupler-Clamp-3-MMCLAMP-3-/272678959478?epid=662447943&hash=item3f7ceeb976:g:5pcAAOSwONBZCqfC&vxp=mtr)
Here's my datalog with Boostane added to the tank. I drove around for around 20 miles for it to mix. Then completed a multi gear datalog. Looks a little better to me. There's still knock but its down from 8 to 4. I think if I added more boostane (I only put in a 1/3 of the can) it would of lowered the knock even more.
.... I would just back it off... even 4 with meth is not good....... you really need to log the 2nd bank... IMO your playing with fire...
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I just wanted to see if boostane would lower the knock. Which it did so it kinda makes me feel that it most likely is a atomization issue with the meth being injected to close to the intake. And not a faulty knock sensor wire. As I originally thought may be the issue. I'll have the hot pipes back on wednesday all setup with (2) bungs for the meth nozzles.
I get that this probably an atomization issue. You have said you have been getting more KR every tune revision. Have you tried Tune 4 since tune 7 seems to be the worst?
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 04:19:37 PM
My order of boostane just came in. I'd like to mix some in the tank to see if the extra octane cures the knock since the location of my meth nozzles isn't ideal and it's not providing all the cylinders an even amount of meth. Here's a link to a video of the product... Let me know your thoughts good or bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFUAWdoGrI0)
No available MSDS for Boostane. Seems it is MMT based though, as it leaves an orange tint on the plugs. Claims are that it holds MMT in suspension better than Torco. And yes, tuning is required to safely run it as it may lean out the AFR. People are talking about results, nobody's found any chemical composition data.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 07:29:04 PM
I just wanted to see if boostane would lower the knock. Which it did so it kinda makes me feel that it most likely is a atomization issue with the meth being injected to close to the intake. And not a faulty knock sensor wire. As I originally thought may be the issue. I'll have the hot pipes back on wednesday all setup with (2) bungs for the meth nozzles.
Why have you not unplugged the meth and switched to a non meth tune yet?
That would flat out tell you if it's a meth issue or not. Instead you're throwing more variables into the mix and still risking a lot every time you go WOT and experience knock. I would rule out all other variables before spending cash to modify your hot pipe.
just sayin . . . . first things first.
Would be nice to know if meth is CAUSING the problem, or is AGGRAVATING the problem. Sometimes the SHO is on the ragged edge, and a tune or tune + significant mods will cause it to hiccup relentlessly.
Any updates??
Quote from: ddlopes on September 01, 2017, 07:29:04 PM
I just wanted to see if boostane would lower the knock. Which it did so it kinda makes me feel that it most likely is a atomization issue with the meth being injected to close to the intake. And not a faulty knock sensor wire. As I originally thought may be the issue. I'll have the hot pipes back on wednesday all setup with (2) bungs for the meth nozzles.
If it hasn't been mentioned yet consider your plugs. I was all of a sudden getting KR with meth and after trying a lot of other things it dawned on me that the plugs had been in for a while, swapped them out and no KR.
Ok I moved the nozzles so that they're in the not pipes now. But unfortunately I'm still getting 4.5 degrees of knock retard. I'm gonna shut the meth off and check for knock on a tune with not meth. I didn't have any before so I don't expect to see any now. But just wanna confirm it's only a meth tune issue. Now my rev 6 meth tune only had 1.5 degrees of knock retard. I can live with that but that tune leaves a lot of power still on the table. Here's a pic of my new setup. Both nozzles are installed after the wastegate mod.
I took the car out and datalogged a non meth tune from 1st gear through 4th. There was only 1 degree of knock retard. I then loaded the rev 6 meth tune and only got 1.5 degrees of knock retard again from 1st gear to 4th. My next step is to pull the plugs and check them. I do have one question regarding meth consumption. I filled the windshield washer fluid jug to the top with meth. When I got back from the datalog I refilled the jug and noticed it used at least 18 -20 oz. of meth. I only sprayed meth for about 12 seconds using (2) 175 ml nozzles. Does that sound excessive?
Quote from: ddlopes on September 07, 2017, 08:38:47 PM
I took the car out and datalogged a non meth tune from 1st gear through 4th. There was only 1 degree of knock retard. I then loaded the rev 6 meth tune and only got 1.5 degrees of knock retard again from 1st gear to 4th. My next step is to pull the plugs and check them. I do have one question regarding meth consumption. I filled the windshield washer fluid jug to the top with meth. When I got back from the datalog I refilled the jug and noticed it used at least 18 -20 oz. of meth. I only sprayed meth for about 12 seconds using (2) 175 ml nozzles. Does that sound excessive?
I have no experience with meth but that amount sounds excessive for only 12 seconds of use.
X2 & Glock is spot on!! IMO that's certainly an excessive amount for such a short period.
I only consumed roughly a quart of Methanol during my 3 runs @ the Track with my DPM Setup. Z
My thoughts exactly... I'm gonna check the system for leaks. What is the total amount of mls with your direct meth system?
Quote from: ddlopes on September 07, 2017, 08:38:47 PM
I took the car out and datalogged a non meth tune from 1st gear through 4th. There was only 1 degree of knock retard. I then loaded the rev 6 meth tune and only got 1.5 degrees of knock retard again from 1st gear to 4th. My next step is to pull the plugs and check them. I do have one question regarding meth consumption. I filled the windshield washer fluid jug to the top with meth. When I got back from the datalog I refilled the jug and noticed it used at least 18 -20 oz. of meth. I only sprayed meth for about 12 seconds using (2) 175 ml nozzles. Does that sound excessive?
My car GOBBLES meth .. if i am hard driving i can drain the 3/4 gallon tank in a day. on topic, 1.5' knock is not really knock its the car sensing there will be knock if it goes any further and pulling back.
what was the spark value with the 1.5 kr ?
I would also check your CAC(intercooler)for inundation. Z
Are you using a solenoid or check valve on your system prior to the nozzle?
quote author=TopherSho link=topic=8280.msg125575#msg125575 date=1504923613]
Quote from: ddlopes on September 07, 2017, 08:38:47 PM
I took the car out and datalogged a non meth tune from 1st gear through 4th. There was only 1 degree of knock retard. I then loaded the rev 6 meth tune and only got 1.5 degrees of knock retard again from 1st gear to 4th. My next step is to pull the plugs and check them. I do have one question regarding meth consumption. I filled the windshield washer fluid jug to the top with meth. When I got back from the datalog I refilled the jug and noticed it used at least 18 -20 oz. of meth. I only sprayed meth for about 12 seconds using (2) 175 ml nozzles. Does that sound excessive?
My car GOBBLES meth .. if i am hard driving i can drain the 3/4 gallon tank in a day. on topic, 1.5' knock is not really knock its the car sensing there will be knock if it goes any further and pulling back.
what was the spark value with the 1.5 kr ?
[/quote]
@- ddlopes I want sure if this was referenced towards me!!!
I currently have a Alky-Solenoid which acts as a check valve on my current DPM Setup. Z
Here is my very own thread below.
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7881.0.html)
I have a check valve right behind the nozzle... I go to the track and run all night on window washer tank of meth with plenty to spare.... 10 1/8 mile runs....
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I'm running (2) solenoids because I was injecting after the throttle body. My primary solenoid is right next to my pump and the power solenoid is mounted next to the firewall. Here's a pic...
I'm gonna drain the meth tank and put some new meth in there. Just to eliminate that as a culprit. I bought meth from a different supplier than I usually do. But it was a sealed vp fuel metal jug. But gotta check everything. Hopefully I get to the bottom of it soon. This sucks...
Brad also has me datalogging all the DMR's for knock so we can see what cylinder is have knock retard...
Just found the date on the bottom of the metal can... 8-20-2016.
Not sure if that's too old or not.
Check out this datalog... I think the knock is gone!!! I had to get out of the throttle because a car pulled out in front me.
Bad meth, eh? Well, if that was the problem the Rx is of course to use it up as quickly as possible :P Good find.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 09, 2017, 06:11:56 PM
Check out this datalog... I think the knock is gone!!! I had to get out of the throttle because a car pulled out in front me.
You need a better datalog... no knock.. which is great... better than your other logs... You switched to AJP huh? What octane gas are you using?
I know bad gas and meth was mentioned a few times. Nothing you can do till you get rid of it.
Unfortunately I spoke to soon. I got so excited that the problem was finally. LOL...
I took the care out again just to confirm the knock was gone. And it's back!!! Tomorrow I'm going through my whole meth system. I'm thinking there's a delay in the spray. My datalog showed my IAT started at 111 and was cooled down to 75 so I'm getting cooling. But the meth isn't cooling the air instantly like it should. So I'm going to check to see if there's a delay in the meth system. Also drain the meth tank. The other log that showed no knock was from me lowering when the meth started to spray. But it wasn't a full log as I stated. Hopefully tomorrow I'll finally get some insight to what the problem is.
Ok... just an update ... I removed the Airaid and installed my homemade boost tester. Then removed both nozzles from the hot pipes and plugged both holes. I added some clear line to the existing snow performance red meth line. This is for testing purposes only. I wanna see exactly what's going on with the meth before and after I spray. I'll also be removing the passenger side tire and inner wheel well to check on the pump and solenoid for any issues. Hopefully today I'll find the issue and it'll help someone else from having to deal with all this bull!!! Thanks for all the help you guys are awesome!!
Good luck!
Thanks
Ok I've absolutely proven the meth sprays exactly when the control unit calls for meth. I changed the start and full on spray points at several different psi and there was not one issue. Since I used the clear line I was also able to see what the meth was doing in the line before and after spraying. And the meth inside the line always stayed up by the nozzle prior to and after spraying. So there's not an issue with the line bleeding meth back towards the pump. There's also no leaks at any fitting, no kinks on any line and no leaks on any line as well. So it appears the system is working as intended. I completely flushed the meth tank and filled it with the supplier I normally use. The meth that was in the tank before was from a speed shop less then a mile from my house. The place where I usually go to is about a 30 minute drive away so I tried the place close to my house. Hopefully this cures the knock because the only other thing I could think of would be spark plugs. But they only have around 1500 miles on them.
Your not on the same tank of gas still are you?
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Yes but I put some Boostane in there just in cause. So it should of brought the octane up in case I got bad gas.
I ran a rev 10 tune that I got yesterday and didn't see any knock but Brad took timing out. So I'm not sure what my command for spark is. But I'm pretty sure it's on the low end. SBS where are you at with spark if you don't mind me asking.
Quote from: ddlopes on September 10, 2017, 04:15:38 PM
I ran a rev 10 tune that I got yesterday and didn't see any knock but Brad took timing out. So I'm not sure what my command for spark is. But I'm pretty sure it's on the low end. SBS where are you at with spark if you don't mind me asking.
Soooo I think I said before, burn through this tank of gas and reassess... a lot of those octane boosters are not consistent... I don't care with the market brochures say...
Do you have E around you? If you do a couple gallons will help significantly with knock until you get a new tank of gas.
If Brad is tuning around a bad tank of gas then it's a waste of your time and his.
Right now I am at 15psi of boost demanded with 20psi+ boost spikes and 28 degrees of spark.
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I don't have E85 here. I've got a 1/4 tank of gas left in the tank. I'll burn it up tomorrow and refill with 93. Then retest... I don't drive the car often so that's why it's taken so long to burn up a full tank of gas. I've had the car for 3 years and only put on 3800 miles. Thanks again SBS!
So we finally found the culprit of the knock with Brad's help and patients. After going through several different scenarios of what could be causing me to have knock even though I'm running 100% meth it turned out to be bad meth. Brad also did his magic messing with the fuel in the tune as well. I'm seeing approximately 50 degrees of temperature drop according to the IAT sensor. And I'm finally seeing cooling in first gear as well. Before I wasn't see cooling to later in the gears. I would like to say thanks to everyone for helping me. And especially Brad for everything he's done get this car to pull like never before!!!
Nice, bad fuel after all. Thankfully no issues with your SHO. Enjoy!
Quote from: ddlopes on September 11, 2017, 04:34:29 PM
So we finally found the culprit of the knock with Brad's help and patients. After going through several different scenarios of what could be causing me to have knock even though I'm running 100% meth it turned out to be bad meth. Brad also did his magic messing with the fuel in the tune as well. I'm seeing approximately 50 degrees of temperature drop according to the IAT sensor. And I'm finally seeing cooling in first gear as well. Before I wasn't see cooling to later in the gears. I would like to say thanks to everyone for helping me. And especially Brad for everything he's done get this car to pull like never before!!!
It is not uncommon. Im 90% sure my meth is also stale-ish. I mix 30-70 and after being away for 3 weeks I noticed my sho having issues maintaining spark. after adding 2 bottles of heet to my reservoir in the car the issues dissipated until is filled it this week for data logging.
i do not think i sealed the VP can enough, or the pump i used introduced some sort of contaminant. I am revising my pumping methods to see about avoiding that.
That's some Great news and hopefully you can start enjoying your SHO.
@ Trophersho did notice that your Methanol pale was somewhat different!!!
I think for future reference we might need to start checking the validation and authenticity of any such Methanol.
Here's mine and pretty Fresh indeed with expiration date and all. Z :)
(https://i.imgur.com/AG4yTV6h.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/00vu4cIh.jpg?1)
Quote from: ZSHO on September 11, 2017, 05:05:11 PM
That's some Great news and hopefully you can start enjoying your SHO.
@ Trophersho did notice that your Methanol pale was somewhat different!!!
I think we need to start checking the validation and authenticity of any such Methanol.
Here's mine and pretty Fresh indeed with expiration date and all. Z :)
(https://i.imgur.com/AG4yTV6h.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/00vu4cIh.jpg?1)
I will look and post a pic. I REALLY think I dicked it up myself. I have not been storing the pump, and pump lines in a clean bag or anything. it is possible some sort of contaminant got in.
The place get my meth now pumps it from 55 gallon drums. I store it in the VP plastic jug in my garage. Perhaps I should use a metal can to store it in now. The plastic jug may introduce moisture after sitting for a while (2 months)...
Quote from: ddlopes on September 11, 2017, 05:18:46 PM
The place get my meth now pumps it from 55 gallon drums. I store it in the VP plastic jug in my garage. Perhaps I should use a metal can to store it in now. The plastic jug may introduce moisture after sitting for a while (2 months)...
They do recommend a HARD container with a hard seal. I may have not sealed mine all the way or purged the pump and let some stale stuff back into the can and it reacted or went stale by association .. dunno. Buying a new can today as i JUST pumped dry this morning .