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I'm getting knock with meth...

Started by ddlopes, August 31, 2017, 03:37:01 PM

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ddlopes

August 31, 2017, 03:37:01 PM
For some odd reason I'm getting knock retard even though I'm spraying meth through a snow performance stage 3 kit. I'm running 93 octane with VP racing fuel M1 meth 100%. But for some odd reason I'm getting between 6 to 8 degrees of knock. I checked the knock sensor wires and the black wire did show signs of chaffing and a small area of the wire was exposed. It fixed the wire and added wireloom to protect it. I thought that was the culprit but it wasn't!!! Still getting knock... any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for looking
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno

FoMoCoSHO

#1
August 31, 2017, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 03:37:01 PM
For some odd reason I'm getting knock retard even though I'm spraying meth through a snow performance stage 3 kit. I'm running 93 octane with VP racing fuel M1 meth 100%. But for some odd reason I'm getting between 6 to 8 degrees of knock. I checked the knock sensor wires and the black wire did show signs of chaffing and a small area of the wire was exposed. It fixed the wire and added wireloom to protect it. I thought that was the culprit but it wasn't!!! Still getting knock... any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for looking
Do you know for sure the pump is operational?

Too much meth can cause wall wetting which can cause knock.

StealBlueSho

#2
August 31, 2017, 03:47:15 PM
Post some logs, it will provide insight...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ddlopes

#3
August 31, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
Yes I check the pump and it's working fine. I'll post some logs when I get home. Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm spraying too much (350ml nozzle)... but I'm starting to spray 3 psi
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno

ddlopes

#4
August 31, 2017, 04:28:17 PM
Here's my logs...
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno

SHOdded

#5
August 31, 2017, 05:15:14 PM
To followup on FoMoCo's post:  Has the KR been there the entire time you have been tuned for meth?  A pump issue or a kink in the line have been the most frequent culprits hardware wise.  Then there's nozzle size and placement to consider.

Check the pcm to see if it shows any misfire events.  Hopefully compression is good.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

ddlopes

#6
August 31, 2017, 05:27:32 PM
I've started getting more and more knock as we continue to tune. I'd say the last 3 tunes. My nozzle placement is in a throttle body plate.
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno

SHOdded

#7
August 31, 2017, 05:44:38 PM
If no other options develop, consider retuning to a nometh tune to see if the KR is still there.  How does the engine oil look/smell, looking for fuel in particular?
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

lamrith

#8
August 31, 2017, 06:21:50 PM
You are in a throttle plate?  I want to say all but the direct port guys are running pre-blade nozzles, so you are possibly in a bit of less common territory.

Do you have a check valve in there so that the vacuum behind the TB is not sucking meth from the line before you start spraying?
3psi seems a bit on the low side, most people recommend 6psi start point. 

Combination of the two could have your with more meth being injected than planned and causing an issue?

I do like SHodded's idea of returning to no meth tune and verifying if KR is present before you keep running meth tune.  You want the car 100% solid before you add meth.
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago w/ 275/40-20 GMAX AS-05.

ZSHO

#9
August 31, 2017, 07:04:25 PM Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 07:06:54 PM by ZSHO
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
Yes I check the pump and it's working fine. I'll post some logs when I get home. Thanks for the reply. I don't think I'm spraying too much (350ml nozzle)... but I'm starting to spray 3 psi
Isn't spraying at 3 psi a way bit early!! Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

TopherSho

#10
August 31, 2017, 09:14:51 PM
Not sure, the progressive kit has a ramp up volume control.. but 3 psi is WAY lower than I'd expect.

*If* the volume of meth ramps to fast or has to high a initial flow it could be setting or even small amounts of fluid on the caps increasing g the compression.

I'd back off the onset to 5+ Pounds and retest..
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

ddlopes

#11
August 31, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
Here's a datalog spraying meth at 6psi... still have knock. Yes I do have a second solenoid to stop the vacuum from sucking in meth.
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno

TopherSho

#12
August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting. 

during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.

what is your elevation ?

others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

#13
August 31, 2017, 11:19:09 PM
Quote from: ddlopes on August 31, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
Here's a datalog spraying meth at 6psi... still have knock. Yes I do have a second solenoid to stop the vacuum from sucking in meth.
It's pulling a ton of fuel and still well rich of commanded AFR.

ddlopes

#14
September 01, 2017, 08:37:37 AM
Elevation is 164ft



Quote from: TopherSho on August 31, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Interesting things to note.. after cutting the data before the high speed and after the high speed (attached to post) I can see up to +7kr .. BUT it only occurs after shifting. 

during the non-shift WoT your only hitting 18spark on average but it is stable.. it is low for meth in my humble opinion but it is behaving as it should.

what is your elevation ?

others will need to chime in but this looks like a tuning issue or a fuel quality / meth quality issue or issue with meth delivery issue with the nozzle..
2013 SHO P/P mods: EcoPower Parts dual CAI, 3 bar, PPE catted down pipe, SCT X4, 170 degree thermostat, SNOW PERFORMANCE methanol stage 3 with ProMeth staineless steel braided lines, AeroForce gauges, Hot pipes, custom boost activated cutout xpipe, tial bov, Tial Wastegate mod, GH intercooler, MSD coils, AFE throttle spacer, UPR catch can, Rovos Durban wheels, AJP tuned to 389hp and 503trq on mustang dyno
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