So my engine blew and I'm going to replace the longblock with a new factory one. I want to at least freshen up my turbos while I'm at it since I'm at 130k miles. Is that 100% necessary ??? So should I just buy new stock turbos from ford, get the stock ones with upgraded impellers and wastegate or go for the ATP turbos. I originally thought ATP turbos were upgraded stock turbos also but it appears they are different and larger turbos all together. So I would love for my SHO to make big power however the rest of my drive train has 130,000 miles on it I don't expect all of it to last forever but I don't want to make so much power I have to worry about transmission rebuilds and breaking other things. Does anybody have a comparison of the different turbo upgrades and pros and cons of them that will help me to make a decision? Also what other mods might be required to run different turbos ? I'd have LMS tweak my tune or get a SCT tuner and start data logging but time to mess with that would be an issue.
Honestly I'm thinking about fixing my SHO and giving it to my wife as her daily driver (drives an expedition EL now)and buy myself a fusion to daily drive because I drive a lot as seen by the miles on my SHO.
anyone ???
I need to make a decision so I can get my SHO back on the road !
thanks in advance.....
If you want to do all this, honestly, I would go for the ATP Turbo upgrade, since you do have cores you can send in to cover the core charge. The main weakness in the OEM turbos has been the seals, and I believe they address that in the ATP upgrade, but you should doublecheck with them. The advantage is simple, same power at less boost, or more power at same boost. Less stress on your powertrain, if you so choose.
New OEM turbos are about $500 apiece, and will come with 2 yr/unlimited mileage warranty. You will still have to return your old turbos as core. This is the better way to go if you do decide to swap out for the Fusion.
If funds permit, definitely go ATP. Better to put them in now instead of wanting them down the road after replacing with stock or upgraded stock.
Can LMS adjust my can tune for ATP's ?
Would they or upgraded stock turbos give significantly more power as much as the car will allow / support in an otherwise stock form with a tune and the turbos ?
Seems like the ECU will limit power no matter what to keep the car from destroying itself ??
where is the best place to buy the upgraded turbos, or ATP ?
Looks like about 1600 or 2600 not including the cores right ? what is the core charge ? I'll have to send my stockers in later.
Quote from: 68_GT on June 07, 2017, 12:46:17 PM
Can LMS adjust my can tune for ATP's ?
Would they or upgraded stock turbos give significantly more power as much as the car will allow / support in an otherwise stock form with a tune and the turbos ?
Seems like the ECU will limit power no matter what to keep the car from destroying itself ??
larger turbos are LESS taxing on the car, IMO. if you upgrade the turbos, you can make the same power with less boost, meaning less strain on the car. This means less taxing for the same power levels, and room to increase the power on the current system before you run out of fuel/intercooler.
Quote from: derfdog15 on June 07, 2017, 12:52:47 PM
Quote from: 68_GT on June 07, 2017, 12:46:17 PM
Can LMS adjust my can tune for ATP's ?
Would they or upgraded stock turbos give significantly more power as much as the car will allow / support in an otherwise stock form with a tune and the turbos ?
Seems like the ECU will limit power no matter what to keep the car from destroying itself ??
larger turbos are LESS taxing on the car, IMO. if you upgrade the turbos, you can make the same power with less boost, meaning less strain on the car. This means less taxing for the same power levels, and room to increase the power on the current system before you run out of fuel/intercooler.
I don't mind doing a turbo upgrade now but trying to weigh the benefits if I'm not willing to rebuild the rest of the drivetrain and spend a ton on supporting mods to really get the full power benefits of them ??
so on my basically stock set up with a tune any idea of the expected power levels attainable with..
stock turbos
upgraded turbos (only gives you half the turbo right ?? (Shouldn't I replace the entire turbos due to mileage while I'm at it)
ATP turbos ?
Stock Turbos (Core...........?) 1000.00
Turbo Upgrade (Your Turbos ) 1600.00
Eco power Parts (HAS any one done this upgrade...?)
ATP Turbos (Plus Core 1600) 2500.00
I went with ATP, Not knowing about the Eco Power Parts upgrade, After
looking what happened to the Stock turbos and there Destruction
U NEED UPGRADED if you want to run the thing hard
Quote from: irondoor19 on June 07, 2017, 01:20:34 PM
Stock Turbos (Core...........?) 1000.00
Turbo Upgrade (Your Turbos ) 1600.00
Eco power Parts (HAS any one done this upgrade...?)
ATP Turbos (Plus Core 1600) 2500.00
I went with ATP, Not knowing about the Eco Power Parts upgrade, After
looking what happened to the Stock turbos and there Destruction
U NEED UPGRADED if you want to run the thing hard
so ATP is$2400-2500 minus the core for $1600 ?? didn't know they core those since their turbos are completely different ??
Plus Core SO $4100.00 and when you send in the Old Ones 1600.00 Back....
they're telling me its $2,495 with an $800 core, so $3,300 with out the core credit.
with turbo upgrades knowing I'm about to install a new 3.5 long block and not really wanting to go all out on the car will turbo upgrades still pick up more power and acceleration than what the stock turbos can do but still be tuned down as to not guarantee breaking everything else in the drivetrain. Thinking faster spool, faster and flatter torque curves and more high rpm boost will make the even faster even with out turning the boost way up.
So basically are they worth it if keeping everything else basically stock except tuning ?
I can only imagine adding downpipes if they will even help with turbos limited by tuning ? Would like to hear more turbo noise out of the exhaust. Do the upgrade turbos have added turbo sound in the exhaust ?
Well that is interesting,
as I looked up my Visa Bill to Confirm,
and they charged me this amount 4130.00 With UPS
1600.00 Core Return So I do not know...
SO as i am still breaking the car in:
Do not think there is any additional Noise, However i have SW Down Pipes and Exhaust..
Seems the the Turbos Build Pressure faster, However I am not Hammering on it Yet...
Down Pipes w cats are Recommended for the Stock turbos, to aid in the Back Pressure
and keep the Seals from blowing out.
So with an otherwise ibasically stock SHO except a tune is there any point in upgrading the turbos if I can't really take advantage of them without fuel system upgrades drive train upgrades and no meth ?
Maybe? I do not know the metrics of the turbos Vs stock, but they may be more efficient at the same turbine rpm and generate less heat, they may spool faster, they may be lighter (doubt that one)?
I'd talk to tuners who have experience with them specifically .. they re likely to know more.
Been meaning to reply to this for awhile...So busy I can hardly post anymore...I think there is benefit to upgrading the turbos even on a stock SHO...
I don't think the increased size of the wheels on the upgrades are big enough to cause adverse effects on spool..The stockers are so little they can actually spool too early if you want...I'd be willing to bet you could get full boost well before 3k on the bigger turbos.
Even the stock fuel system has plenty of fuel to spark above 4000 rpm so you will get more airflow at high RPM from the turbos which will get the HP up even without the extra torque down low...So you can have more power and not additional stress on the drivetrain or internals....Maybe even a couple hundred more RPM since the turbos won't be the choke point and that alone can be worth power.
I would upgrade if you have the money to spend.
IMHO after all I've seen and done I'd suggest the upgraded stockers. Why? Because the ATP's are overkill for this platform until somebody figures out how to keep the trans together.
On the upgraded turbos I made just under 500WHP on E85 which could also be done on race gas which is more than enough for the drivetrain without having long term negative affects. It also stops you from turning it up just a little more. We all know the stock block can't handle the ATP's for more than a few months on high boost. If you're building the motor and are prepared for semi-annual trans builds as a worse case scenario then the ATP's, if you want a fun daily then the upgraded stockers with the Tial WGA.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on June 09, 2017, 10:24:48 AM
IMHO after all I've seen and done I'd suggest the upgraded stockers. Why? Because the ATP's are overkill for this platform until somebody figures out how to keep the trans together.
On the upgraded turbos I made just under 500WHP on E85 which could also be done on race gas which is more than enough for the drivetrain without having long term negative affects. It also stops you from turning it up just a little more. We all know the stock block can't handle the ATP's for more than a few months on high boost. If you're building the motor and are prepared for semi-annual trans builds as a worse case scenario then the ATP's, if you want a fun daily then the upgraded stockers with the Tial WGA.
I know you have done a TON of work on this platform yourself and if you don't mind me picking your brain... at what hp/tq to the wheels would you consider max for a daily driver? I saw some post saying 500 hp / 500 tq is it... others saying 450 eitherway... at what point would you say is about it?
EDIT: Apparently I skimmed the part where you already said 500... nevermind!
One more thing about upgraded stockers, I send you new CHRA sections to install on your existing turbo "shells", no down time, no shipping turbos, no core charges. ATP you'll have to send in your turbos after ordering and wait 1-4 weeks for them to ship you the new turbos. That alone is a huge consideration.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on June 09, 2017, 10:55:45 AM
One more thing about upgraded stockers, I send you new CHRA sections to install on your existing turbo "shells", no down time, no shipping turbos, no core charges. ATP you'll have to send in your turbos after ordering and wait 1-4 weeks for them to ship you the new turbos. That alone is a huge consideration.
I thought we had to send the stocker to you for the new CHRA? That is a BIG plus that you send out just the CHRA section for install... I was unaware of this.. I have not found anywhere online that will send out just the CHRA....even stock... thumbs up!! You maybe getting an order soon..
Nope, new CHRA sent out now, makes it super easy. You get two CHRA and two Tial WGA ready to install. :)
:clap:
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on June 09, 2017, 11:51:57 AM
Nope, new CHRA sent out now, makes it super easy. You get two CHRA and two Tial WGA ready to install. :)
thanks for talking to me on the phone yesterday and explaining all this. I'll probably go ahead and order them today.
My only concern is having thrown a rod is metal fragments having gotten into my stock turbos. As I recall your CHRA replaces the seals and components that I would need to be concerned about where oil inside my turbos could have been contaminated by metal particles / fragments whatever ??
I like the idea of your turbos but I want all of the turbos to be fresh / new with this new longblock install.
is this all the CHRA is ?? basically replacing these internal sections ? I assume install is self explanatory or easy with the motor out ?
Quote from: 68_GT on June 13, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
is this all the CHRA is ?? basically replacing these internal sections ? I assume install is self explanatory or easy with the motor out ?
so this is what you get with the upgraded turbos.
here is the process
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwUFMoBZxTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwUFMoBZxTM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo_7AeO9g4I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo_7AeO9g4I)
Looks straightforward.
To the OP I was wondering what caused the engine failure? At 130k and minimal mods, I was thinking the dreaded internal water pump. Also, how is the car running now with the new engine and turbos?
I'm looking at upgraded turbo's myself soon and thought this was a good resurrection thread since many of us are approaching 100k miles or more.
Its always good to discuss and reread thing from the past that got us here to today.
My question is. Just because you can. Doesnt mean you should.
Why not install the ATP total upgrade turbos. Run them at a Daily Driver known power rating so you dont break things. Isnt that better for the Turbo's and maybe some other components to be run conservatively but keep the car in the Low 12's so its a blast to drive. I know it costs more but why not?
Quote from: Macgyver on February 26, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
Its always good to discuss and reread thing from the past that got us here to today.
My question is. Just because you can. Doesnt mean you should.
Why not install the ATP total upgrade turbos. Run them at a Daily Driver known power rating so you dont break things. Isnt that better for the Turbo's and maybe some other components to be run conservatively but keep the car in the Low 12's so its a blast to drive. I know it costs more but why not?
I think its a question of budget/goals as well as car health. For much less you can do the EPP CHRA upgrade, and get the power you want for a DD. If you only want a mid 12s to low 12s car, you dont even need the turbo upgrade necessarily.
It's like in the mustang world where people nickle and dime themselves with bolt ons (CAI, longtubes, throttlebody, etc.) instead of just getting a supercharger or turbo kit to start. Or when people go boosted, but don't upgrade the fuel system at the same time, so they save some money and then during tuning, they have to stop before they get the most out of the blower/turbo because they run out of fuel.
It's all a matter of perspective and patience IMO.
Quote from: 68_GT on June 13, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
is this all the CHRA is ?? basically replacing these internal sections ? I assume install is self explanatory or easy with the motor out ?
yes, but I am fairly confident that you should have your turbos balanced after the install.
Quote from: J-Will on February 27, 2018, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: 68_GT on June 13, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
is this all the CHRA is ?? basically replacing these internal sections ? I assume install is self explanatory or easy with the motor out ?
yes, but I am fairly confident that you should have your turbos balanced after the install.
If the CHRA comes as an assembly its balanced from the manufacturer. Better question is do the upgraded CHRA require tuning?
Quote from: polskifacet on February 27, 2018, 10:09:54 PM
Quote from: J-Will on February 27, 2018, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: 68_GT on June 13, 2017, 02:42:20 PM
is this all the CHRA is ?? basically replacing these internal sections ? I assume install is self explanatory or easy with the motor out ?
yes, but I am fairly confident that you should have your turbos balanced after the install.
If the CHRA comes as an assembly its balanced from the manufacturer. Better question is do the upgraded CHRA require tuning?
When I upgraded the center sections I got the upgraded wastegates from Mike as well. With both the CHRAs and the wastegates Brad had to make quite a few adjustments to get the car running smooth. These upgraded CHRAs move a lot of air (I suppose the heavier wastegate springs help with this), but I think it would be silly not to tune for the upgraded CHRAs.
What's the end results with the epp chra? I can't find any actual performance data. I'm looking to upgrade and would love to know the actual results of these before deciding between these and ATP. I'm leaning towards these based on price and mileage on my Sho.
Quote from: Spyder3000gtvr4 on April 22, 2018, 08:15:14 PM
What's the end results with the epp chra? I can't find any actual performance data. I'm looking to upgrade and would love to know the actual results of these before deciding between these and ATP. I'm leaning towards these based on price and mileage on my Sho.
Thats like comparing apples and oranges. What are your power goals?
Well I'm looking for more of actual numbers for the epp chra as I can't find the actual expected power gains. Without actual data it's just "hey it's faster" Livernois and atp tells you roughly what each thing adds.
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2018, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: Macgyver on February 26, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
Its always good to discuss and reread thing from the past that got us here to today.
My question is. Just because you can. Doesnt mean you should.
Why not install the ATP total upgrade turbos. Run them at a Daily Driver known power rating so you dont break things. Isnt that better for the Turbo's and maybe some other components to be run conservatively but keep the car in the Low 12's so its a blast to drive. I know it costs more but why not?
If you only want a mid 12s to low 12s car, you dont even need the turbo upgrade necessarily.
This right here...
The Bronze SHO ran a DA corrected 12.35 with nothing but Brad's tune and E45 running just 15 PSI so there was room for more boost.
The Lincoln with full E85 and 14 PSI "feels" as fast as the 15. We shall see.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 03, 2018, 11:45:22 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2018, 12:57:32 PM
Quote from: Macgyver on February 26, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
Its always good to discuss and reread thing from the past that got us here to today.
My question is. Just because you can. Doesnt mean you should.
Why not install the ATP total upgrade turbos. Run them at a Daily Driver known power rating so you dont break things. Isnt that better for the Turbo's and maybe some other components to be run conservatively but keep the car in the Low 12's so its a blast to drive. I know it costs more but why not?
If you only want a mid 12s to low 12s car, you dont even need the turbo upgrade necessarily.
This right here...
The Bronze SHO ran a DA corrected 12.35 with nothing but Brad's tune and E45 running just 15 PSI so there was room for more boost.
The Lincoln with full E85 and 14 PSI "feels" as fast as the 15. We shall see.
Thats sorta what I am saying. Just because you can. Doesnt mean you should.
I will be finding out soon enough too.
Ok so nobody has any actual data for the gains of the chra? I'm going to need to order turbo stuff ASAP and hoping these are in the middle of stock and the atp so 100-125hp
Bumping because I'd love to see data myself.
I replied to other threads with data.
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