Ok
2014 XSport
LMS 93 performance V3 Tune with 3Bar
LMS catted downpipes
LMS catback Corsa exhaust
*170 TStat
Pregapped plugs
Air Raid Intake
Dyno runs done on a Mustang dyno
(Not sure if model matters to anyone)
Air raid pull 1:
https://vimeo.com/112873503 (https://vimeo.com/112873503)
Air raid pull 2:
https://vimeo.com/112873525 (https://vimeo.com/112873525)
Dyno pulls with MDesign Intake
MDesign pull 1:
https://vimeo.com/112873632 (https://vimeo.com/112873632)
MDesign pull 2:
https://vimeo.com/112873667 (https://vimeo.com/112873667)
I also did a 0-100mph pull on parkway and it pulls really strong and feels smooth...
And tons of ear candy for those who love it..
When on the gas you can hear the turbo spool and the intake sucking air in. But when you left off the gas you her a strong "whooshing" sound.(almost sounds like it's behind me)
So far overall extremely happy with look and function.
I will post dyno graphs tomorrow and you can all see for yourselves..
Everything fits nicely. This is money well spent!
Enjoy!
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Two questions?
1. Did your air raid have the seal mods done to it?
2. Any thoughts on why running the airaid hood closed verses the mdesign hood open?
The air raid was installed exactly as sold to me. With the trim ring around the top to deal with the hood closed.
Air raid run with hood closed to keep it sealed.
MDesign intake doesn't need hood closed to keep it sealed.
And we ran the dyno after intake was installed on it.
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Air raid
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I expected gains, but not 15 hp, that's really cool. Combined with the IAT2's that Spartn was reporting, pretty believable. Must be doing a great job of insulating the intake air through the rev range.
The gasket is installed backwards. The crown in the molding should roll towards the engine bay not towards the air filter. Reason being as the air is sucked in, you want the blade to be pulled up and seal against the hood.
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I'm confused, where are the dyno sheets to confirm 15 hp increase? Is it another post?
Quote from: SHOdded on November 25, 2014, 10:41:34 PM
I expected gains, but not 15 hp, that's really cool. Combined with the IAT2's that Spartn was reporting, pretty believable. Must be doing a great job of insulating the intake air through the rev range.
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The air raid intake will never be installed again... So it's not important anymore.
So far the MDesign intake is in a league of its own as far as looks and function..
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I should have them tomorrow. I couldn't get to the shop to pick up yesterday. And they were having issues with software and busy with the holiday.
Graphs will be posted ASAP.
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Ok understood. Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for the updates.
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Quote from: pejohnson on November 27, 2014, 03:22:20 PM
The gasket is installed backwards. The crown in the molding should roll towards the engine bay not towards the air filter. Reason being as the air is sucked in, you want the blade to be pulled up and seal against the hood.
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Don't think the blade matters with the explorer because it had like an inch gap there. No touch of the hood.
Rich
Both Tests should have both been done with the hood closed. Engine heat gets trapped in the engine compartment with it closed. I am not saying that it makes a difference as we don't know but when you test a product the only variable that should change is the product.
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
Well
I knew I couldn't make everyone happy.
So once I post the graphs. Each can make their own mind up and spend their own money to test it their way.
And I would bet that having the hood open would never make a 15 HP difference.. Lol
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I didn't say that it will make the HP different. I said we won't know as the tests were not done the same. There is an unknown variable in the mix now. For all we know having the hood closed during testing for the new one could have made it more efficient. We just don't know. What I do know...almost anything is better than the air raid lol
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
Definitely agree the airaid was a complete disappointment. Maybe a better comparison would be against the stock box.
Rich
All I can say is I am shocked... But it 100% pulls harder.
I can feel it. The few days before the dyno I paid extra attention to how the truck performs... So after, I would have an idea of the "Seat" difference..
And so far no issues.
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Oh
Did I mention I have an air raid for sale? lol
Cheap.
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I would probably pull the trigger but I need to find an uninformed person to buy my air raid first :). It's collecting dust.
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
How much for those airaid intakes fellas?
I haven't given it much thought.
But $150 plus shipping.??
PM me
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I can't beat that.
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
Expensive paper weight
I was just doing some checking and there are different part numbers for the airaid for the taurus versus the explorer (both with the ecoboost). I was hoping I could included the explorer group to find mine a new home but guess not.
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
Quote from: jmr061 on November 27, 2014, 11:35:40 PM
I was just doing some checking and there are different part numbers for the airaid for the taurus versus the explorer (both with the ecoboost). I was hoping I could included the explorer group to find mine a new home but guess not.
Jason
www.fordpimods.com
Hmm
When I called LMS they said it was same part number..
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They should be the same part, the MDesign intake BMC has installed is the same one I have installed on my MKS and another member has installed on his Taurus SHO, so it's safe to say the mounting points are all identical.
For the sake of consistency, the dyno should have been performed the same way for each intake. However, I think that because of the positioning of the scoop, the impact on the intake itself was negligible. The only thing that would have changed is heat dissipation around the engine itself. My thought is that for one pull, this did not impact the results either. If this was the 3rd pull, in a serious of back to backs, then I'd argue otherwise. I like what I see here!
I think a stock car is still needed in order to provide a better picture. The gain here could be attributed to two things:
We know that the Air Raid is worse than stock, so some of the gain seen with this intake could be simply bringing the power level back up to stock then on top of that some from improved efficiency. 15 is a lot! But I think some of that is a testament to the previous intake's (poor) performance.
Breathing mods compliment each other. BigMoney had exhale mods already done. In my mind, helping the car breathe in will certainly compound gains from exhaust mods as well.
Anyway, I would certainly chalk this up as a win for MDesign. My expectation was "0 gain over stock is a win, anything less is on par with current aftermarket offerings". The only question is: what are the gains over stock? I think it is clear that there are some, we just dont have a quantitative figure to show.
bigmoney, thanks for stepping up and testing the intake!
spartn, thanks for investing the time and money in building a new offering. On top of that, thanks for building one that actually performs well and looks great!
Quote from: J-Will on November 28, 2014, 08:59:57 AM
bigmoney, thanks for stepping up and testing the intake!
spartn, thanks for investing the time and money in building a new offering. On top of that, thanks for building one that actually performs well and looks great!
Totally agree.
Looks alone are worth it.
I do think the DP's and catback help which is nice to know they compliment each other.
Hopefully someone fully stock could run a dyno just to see what happens...
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About 2 months ago I ended up picking up a k&n drop in filter. I may just stick with a stock box and possibly use the heat wrap around the box. Either way, I'll wait until spring to see what direction I'm going with.
Mine arrived today, 20 minutes later it is on the car. Thank you Ahmed for a great looking CAI and I am hoping you will do a run of the engine cover. I would love one to match the intake.
Or buy this cold air?
Quote from: gad on November 28, 2014, 10:14:45 PM
Or buy this cold air?
What is your question?
Sorry
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I'd like to buy this CAI
ok
here are the dyno stats. Shop was having issues with their software and had to get Mustang involved in order to get the before and after.
Air Raid intake:
MDesign Intake:
Hope this helps everyone.
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The gains are there! Would like to see graphs through the rev range when they can get them to you, though.
Unfortunately,
The shop had a major software issue and lost all their files. Because mine were the last runs done they were able to recover these. I will ask him if he is able to get the graphs as well, but I think this was the only files they were able to recover.
Let me know if you have any other questions?
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One thing we can tell from the info we did recover (along with 10.4 whp & 16.2 wtq gains) is that while the horsepower curve stayed relatively close the torque power is coming on at 2600RPM vs. 5100RPM, which is all the power you can feel down low due to the restriction-free, linear design of the intake.
Plan is to have more intakes out there in the wild before the year end, that way we can get more testing done with the help of other members.
Since the dyno had software issues, can we trust the numbers? The torque number seems very odd, over +20 actual (~16 seen at the wheels) with a significant difference in RPM. This is a a massive gain from 'only an intake'. Even considering what I stated before with symbiotic exhaust mods, the gains still seem high. I want to believe, but the skeptical side of me makes me question the shop's software failure.
Quote from: J-Will on December 02, 2014, 11:02:30 AM
Since the dyno had software issues, can we trust the numbers? The torque number seems very odd, over +20 actual (~16 seen at the wheels) with a significant difference in RPM. This is a a massive gain from 'only an intake'. Even considering what I stated before with symbiotic exhaust mods, the gains still seem high. I want to believe, but the skeptical side of me makes me question the shop's software failure.
Considering the mods BMC has done to his vehicle and the design of the intake, the gains seem on the upper end of the scale but correct. There was a issue with opening the files not the creation of the files and the shop has been working with Mustang over the last couple days to resolve this, so no worries. The fact that our vehicles are turbocharged also benefits us much more when using a properly designed intake over a NA engine, due to the help of our twins.
This intake has had 5 redesigns, from dual complete piping to each turbo with dual filters to added intake scoops to bring in fresh air, and has been in development for over 7 months. In short, a lot of thought went into the design of the intake such as the flow path and dynamics of the air flow, and keeping temperatures down to OEM levels as well.
Quote from: Spartn27 on December 02, 2014, 11:09:36 AM
Quote from: J-Will on December 02, 2014, 11:02:30 AM
Since the dyno had software issues, can we trust the numbers? The torque number seems very odd, over +20 actual (~16 seen at the wheels) with a significant difference in RPM. This is a a massive gain from 'only an intake'. Even considering what I stated before with symbiotic exhaust mods, the gains still seem high. I want to believe, but the skeptical side of me makes me question the shop's software failure.
Considering the mods BMC has done to his vehicle and the design of the intake, the gains seem on the upper end of the scale but correct. There was a issue with opening the files not the creation of the files and the shop has been working with Mustang over the last couple days to resolve this, so no worries. The fact that our vehicles are turbocharged also benefits us much more when using a properly designed intake over a NA engine, due to the help of our twins.
This intake has had 5 redesigns, from dual complete piping to each turbo with dual filters to added intake scoops to bring in fresh air, and has been in development for over 7 months. In short, a lot of thought went into the design of the intake such as the flow path and dynamics of the air flow, and keeping temperatures down to OEM levels as well.
^^ correct..
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I am satisfied, just wanted to pose the question.
What were the results with the dual intake with separate piping? Did I miss that?
Rich
Also just want to make sure everyone knows I am just a customer here. I have no interest in MDesign as a company. I am just a happy customer trying to report back as much info back to everyone as possible.
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Quote from: SHOnUup on December 02, 2014, 11:16:29 AM
What were the results with the dual intake with separate piping? Did I miss that?
Rich
It was a couple months back, the whole intake system was replaced with custom aluminum piping for each turbo separately though the IAT results weren't any better than other aftermarket intakes. This was most likely due to the aluminum piping as plastic has better thermal properties.
Signed up for the next batch!
Thoughts on a bigger inline filter? Helpful in extending the gains, or no?
Quote from: Spartn27 on December 02, 2014, 11:22:45 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on December 02, 2014, 11:16:29 AM
What were the results with the dual intake with separate piping? Did I miss that?
Rich
It was a couple months back, the whole intake system was replaced with custom aluminum piping for each turbo separately though the IAT results weren't any better than other aftermarket intakes. This was most likely due to the aluminum piping as plastic has better thermal properties.
IAT temps aside, the even airflow to both turbos sounds like a winner to me. From my understanding the rear turbo gets alot better air than the front with Ford's crazy saxophone setup. Is there a prototype of the dual intake still around?
Rich
Spartn any way to install a prefilter to cut down maintenance,only a suggestion,cause have one on my Airaid and still looks new after a year.
Quote from: SHOdded on December 02, 2014, 11:53:42 AM
Thoughts on a bigger inline filter? Helpful in extending the gains, or no?
Many options have been considered though after almost a year of real world testing and reworking the intake I believe due to the design of the filter that air flow is not a problem nor a bottleneck with the current filter.
Quote from: SHOnUup on December 02, 2014, 12:02:09 PMIAT temps aside, the even airflow to both turbos sounds like a winner to me. From my understanding the rear turbo gets alot better air than the front with Ford's crazy saxophone setup. Is there a prototype of the dual intake still around?
Rich
Unfortunately no. These were my initial thoughts though after real world testing the gains were not there over the OEM intake, I also noticed some people had similar results with the Hennessey intake (similar design). The piping also was not equal as the front turbo piping was shorter, that is the reason for Ford's design where it appears that they are unequal though they are not. Furthermore the design of the current intake takes away as little as possible from the OEM look/function, where as previous designs replaced most parts and did not look as "clean"/original, which I believe is also a important aspect.
The saxophone setup is actually designed as both engine dampening (the engine torques when driving) and to have pockets/grooves acting as vacuum ports, so there is a reason why the engineers chose to design the system as they did.
Quote from: ZSHO on December 02, 2014, 01:23:14 PM
Spartn any way to install a prefilter to cut down maintenance,only a suggestion,cause have one on my Airaid and still looks new after a year.
I currently have 30,000 miles on the same filter and it has never been cleaned, it was removed not too long ago and still looked remarkably well therefore I believe with a good maintenance interval (K&N recommends 50,000 miles) you will be all set. Personally I would recommended cleaning it once a year as it is pretty simple to do and easy maintenance. Here are a couple cleaning guides:
http://www.knfilters.com/cleaning.htm (http://www.knfilters.com/cleaning.htm)
http://www.aemintakes.com/air_filter_cleaning_instructions.htm (http://www.aemintakes.com/air_filter_cleaning_instructions.htm)
Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!
Rich
Just got mine yesterday, installed today. Haven't had a chance to drive with it yet, but so far very impressed! Install coming from KN hot air intake was super easy. Thanks Spartn27!!
Looks great, hope you will enjoy increased performance as well :thumb:
All my posts had nothing to say but positive results in regards to the intake,just wanted to clarify regarding the carbon fibre battery cover,any progression in that area yet,and if so keep me updated on a package deal for both,thanks Z.
Quote from: rjdkanak on December 05, 2014, 09:55:26 AM
Just got mine yesterday, installed today. Haven't had a chance to drive with it yet, but so far very impressed! Install coming from KN hot air intake was super easy. Thanks Spartn27!!
Glad you enjoy it!
Quote from: ZSHO on December 05, 2014, 10:48:25 AM
All my posts had nothing to say but positive results in regards to the intake,just wanted to clarify regarding the carbon fibre battery cover,any progression in that area yet,and if so keep me updated on a package deal for both,thanks Z.
Currently I am tied up with exams and getting the next batch of intakes ready for shipping next week though I do plan on doing a limited run of carbon fiber engine covers/battery covers, most likely end of December or early January if time permits Members who have purchased a intake will get priority ordering if they choose to get either.
Quote from: Spartn27 on December 05, 2014, 11:16:50 AM
Quote from: rjdkanak on December 05, 2014, 09:55:26 AM
Just got mine yesterday, installed today. Haven't had a chance to drive with it yet, but so far very impressed! Install coming from KN hot air intake was super easy. Thanks Spartn27!!
Glad you enjoy it!
Quote from: ZSHO on December 05, 2014, 10:48:25 AM
All my posts had nothing to say but positive results in regards to the intake,just wanted to clarify regarding the carbon fibre battery cover,any progression in that area yet,and if so keep me updated on a package deal for both,thanks Z.
Currently I am tied up with exams and getting the next batch of intakes ready for shipping next week though I do plan on doing a limited run of carbon fiber engine covers/battery covers, most likely end of December or early January if time permits Members who have purchased a intake will get priority ordering if they choose to get either.
Can't wait to get mine.... gonna look good in Road & Track! :)
^^^^OH YES!!!!
I have had mine on for a week now and really love the look under the hood. I will not get a chance to see if I get any gains until spring when the track opens, I am not a dyno guy. Hopefully I will see the better part of a tenth faster.
Quote from: navbtcret on December 05, 2014, 04:32:56 PM
I have had mine on for a week now and really love the look under the hood. I will not get a chance to see if I get any gains until spring when the track opens, I am not a dyno guy. Hopefully I will see the better part of a tenth faster.
You could always drive down south until you find a open track!
Quote from: Spartn27 on December 05, 2014, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: navbtcret on December 05, 2014, 04:32:56 PM
I have had mine on for a week now and really love the look under the hood. I will not get a chance to see if I get any gains until spring when the track opens, I am not a dyno guy. Hopefully I will see the better part of a tenth faster.
You could always drive down south until you find a open track!
I am patient and will wait until spring. I have winter tires on it now and will not be going back to the regular tires until April.
I got in on the next batch! Mine is going on a 2015 Xsport did you run into anything on the install worth noting, or is this nice and easy straightforward?
Quote from: 74d34h on December 06, 2014, 05:36:12 PM
I got in on the next batch! Mine is going on a 2015 Xsport did you run into anything on the install worth noting, or is this nice and easy straightforward?
Nothing at all. Simple and smooth
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Got mine installed today... great eye candy, easy install... Made underhood access bit easier too... couldn't wait to get dyno time... left click pics to enlarge.
Ahmad did well! I do plan to replace the ring clamps with stainless T-clamps tp match the other plumbing...just OC I guess, LOL
(http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w596/knot2bfound/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3304_zps9ae7a280.jpg) (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/knot2bfound/media/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3304_zps9ae7a280.jpg.html)
(http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w596/knot2bfound/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3303_zpsdc342edd.jpg) (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/knot2bfound/media/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3303_zpsdc342edd.jpg.html)
I'd say it looks OEM, but that would be severely underestimating the aesthetic value!
I'm anxiously waiting for mine also. Going to install it on my 10 SHO. I was going to go with an airaid when I first boght it but kept reading all the bad reviews. This is exactly what we all needed. BANG UP JOB Mdesign has done on this intake. I have never seen anything like this. I can see these things going far!!!
What's sound difference from the stock airbox?
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 07, 2014, 11:54:52 PM
Got mine installed today... great eye candy, easy install... Made underhood access bit easier too... couldn't wait to get dyno time... left click pics to enlarge.
Ahmad did well! I do plan to replace the ring clamps with stainless T-clamps tp match the other plumbing...just OC I guess, LOL
(http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w596/knot2bfound/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3304_zps9ae7a280.jpg) (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/knot2bfound/media/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3304_zps9ae7a280.jpg.html)
(http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w596/knot2bfound/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3303_zpsdc342edd.jpg) (http://s1331.photobucket.com/user/knot2bfound/media/MDesign%20CAI%20Installed%2012-7-2014/IMG_3303_zpsdc342edd.jpg.html)
Looks awesome on a clean engine,your absolutly correct in regards to t-bolt clamps,holds everything in place better,also changed the silicone couplers.
Thanks guys!
Z... where did you get you T-clamps...they look better than the ons I have on my plumbing now!...PM please...TIA
Poker... Haven't gone WOT. With the LME v8 tune (modded for CAI and DP) the fans come on if i'm running the environmental controls (which I just leave on automatic)... Maybe nice a little spooling, but she growls pretty big when i ask for power... So I can't really say on the sound... bmc has noticed a change though. Butt-dyno says maybe quicker down low, but I need to get her to a dyne to be sure.
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 08, 2014, 03:05:00 PM
Thanks guys!
Z... where did you get you T-clamps...they look better than the ons I have on my plumbing now!...PM please...TIA
Poker... Haven't gone WOT. With the LME v8 tune (modded for CAI and DP) the fans come on if i'm running the environmental controls (which I just leave on automatic)... Maybe nice a little spooling, but she growls pretty big when i ask for power... So I can't really say on the sound... bmc has noticed a change though. Butt-dyno says maybe quicker down low, but I need to get her to a dyne to be sure.
Just PM,Z.
In general also like to use my own silicone HPS high temp couplers,made for turbo and intercooler applications http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NYCL7Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NYCL7Y/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 08, 2014, 03:05:00 PM
Maybe nice a little spooling, but she growls pretty big when i ask for power... So I can't really say on the sound...
I can tell you that just changing filters can affect the sound significantly. I put an AEM DryFlow on the Edge (no downstream changes), and the king of the jungle has awakened :)
In reference to panel filters,AEM dryflow filters are one of the best filters out there,maintenance free,not like the oily K&N FILTERS which need oiling and can damage your sensors. :thumb:
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 08, 2014, 03:05:00 PM
Thanks guys!
Z... where did you get you T-clamps...they look better than the ons I have on my plumbing now!...PM please...TIA
Poker... Haven't gone WOT. With the LME v8 tune (modded for CAI and DP) the fans come on if i'm running the environmental controls (which I just leave on automatic)... Maybe nice a little spooling, but she growls pretty big when i ask for power... So I can't really say on the sound... bmc has noticed a change though. Butt-dyno says maybe quicker down low, but I need to get her to a dyne to be sure.
So if the dyno read more power on yours then you will be able to feel the difference? but right now you can't?
Dyno read more power on mine and I can feel the difference.
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Quote from: explorergotoluvit on December 09, 2014, 07:48:40 PM
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 08, 2014, 03:05:00 PM
Thanks guys!
Z... where did you get you T-clamps...they look better than the ons I have on my plumbing now!...PM please...TIA
Poker... Haven't gone WOT. With the LME v8 tune (modded for CAI and DP) the fans come on if i'm running the environmental controls (which I just leave on automatic)... Maybe nice a little spooling, but she growls pretty big when i ask for power... So I can't really say on the sound... bmc has noticed a change though. Butt-dyno says maybe quicker down low, but I need to get her to a dyne to be sure.
So if the dyno read more power on yours then you will be able to feel the difference? but right now you can't?
Of course not. But subjective impressions are affected by the placebo factor.... Butt dyno says more low end... but AWDyno would prove it... There are differences in the total package of the Xport and the SHO. I like the ability to access my tranny fluid dipstick and the general eye candy regardless.
Of course not. But subjective impressions are affected by the placebo factor.... Butt dyno says more low end... but AWDyno would prove it... There are differences in the total package of the Xport and the SHO. I like the ability to access my tranny fluid dipstick and the general eye candy regardless.
[/quote]
Do you know when you are going to be able to get them numbers? If it makes any on the SHO.
And can you test stock intake?? ? Hood closed?
Quote from: panther427 on December 09, 2014, 09:05:34 PM
And can you test stock intake?? ? Hood closed?
Will try! swamped in things... I have Mike hanging out on the exhaust cutout he made for me... have Crash's gauge pod to fill and install.. Trying to replace all tubing underhood with black SS wire covered tubing and black AN fittings.... more.... But that is a test to look at. realizing that heat soak on the dyno is greater than on the road.
How much for intake?
Since the group buy is over, PM Spartn27 directly. I believe it is around $350+shipping.
To anyone using this on an otherwise stock vehicle, what are your impressions? How is the intake noise over stock? I had a Steeda CAI on my old Fusion Sport with the 3.5 Cyclone and it sounded amazing. Had a cp-e intake on my Focus ST and that really made the factory BOV and intake sound much louder.
Hoping for the same on this. I'm in on the current batch. E-mail Ahmad if you want one. I don't think there are many left.
Here's an observation.... after a week of driving with the MDesign CAI I have noticed that there is no longer a soot buildup in my tailpipe (whichI normally have to wipe out 2x/week)... maybe more air is getting through and better combustion?.. interesting to me... wonder if others have noticed this?
I am seeing no bluing of pipes, etc.
Most curious! My instinct would point me towards a beneficial effect on the pressures in the PCV system, creating less blowby.
I'm opn the current list....Can't wait to get that email stating it is ready to ship....patiently waiting.
What's the verdict on throttle response?
One of the issues with the K&N was that I felt it hurt response due to the lack of bellows slowing the airflow....It wasn't huge, but it was as noticeable as when I cranked up my corn blend.
Are there any concerns with water ingestion with this?
Quote from: dalum on December 24, 2014, 10:00:23 AM
Are there any concerns with water ingestion with this?
Not unless you're going swimming in your vehicle, it uses the OEM intake scoop location that is tucked in under the top of the hood near the grille. It isn't any more likely to ingest water than the OEM intake.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 23, 2014, 02:08:59 PM
What's the verdict on throttle response?
One of the issues with the K&N was that I felt it hurt response due to the lack of bellows slowing the airflow....It wasn't huge, but it was as noticeable as when I cranked up my corn blend.
I have found no throttle lag coming from OEM to the MDesign CAI... seems pretty much instant at initial application from stock as wells both low and highway speeds. I just have to gently touch it for response, and I feel like the car downshifts quicker in response to throttle... which I believe to be good for the 3.5TT by avoiding lugging in easy driving... but this is subjective. Of course I also have DPs, so my turbos spool just a couple of hundred rpm above idle.
As I stated before... I am also not seeing the sooting up of the exhaust tips I used to have after a couple of hundred miles of mixed driving.
Quote from: Spartn27 on December 24, 2014, 10:20:33 AM
Quote from: dalum on December 24, 2014, 10:00:23 AM
Are there any concerns with water ingestion with this?
Not unless you're going swimming in your vehicle, it uses the OEM intake scoop location that is tucked in under the top of the hood near the grille. It isn't any more likely to ingest water than the OEM intake.
Doesn't the OEM design use gravity to trap water at the bottom of the box while air is free to get sucked upward through the filter? Maybe adding a hydrophobic prefilter to the element for added water resistance would be an easy add on. I do think keeping the stock intake source location is great and the fact if I'm reading the info correctly, that the opening is larger than the stock intake opening is a big plus for me. If there was some flow capacity numbers to show that the filter media could flow more air than the stock, or the K&N drop in, I'd be getting on board! I think this looks like the best CAI out there for us by far....almost perfect.
The OEM has a dip due to the horizontal flat panel style, otherwise in order to get a linear flow of air they would have to place the filter vertically which would have increased the size of the OEM intake and might have not had enough room due to the hood. No intake system is going to hydrolock the engine with water unless you submerge the opening with water and get a good amount of water into the system. This intake has been in use for many months in Michigan snow and rain without any ill affects.
On a side note, just shipped out 5 kits to some lucky EcoBoost owners! Should make a nice after Christmas present for some!
Happy Holidays all!
Congrats, guys! Hopee you enjoy the CAI even more than expected, and don't forget the pix!!!
Larry... No problems with driving in a torrential (1"/hr) downpour here... Plus I haven't had soot in my exhaust tips in 2 weeks.
I guess based on your analysis regarding the impovment in reduction of black soot on the tailpipes makes the theory more credible,so guessing there is less exhaust gasses going into the intake so the temp's come down and there is less soot,lower intake temps=more dense air/oxygen=better performance,less soot in the intake.
I have really been struggling to understand how soot would go down with any intake. This caused me to start reading about gdi and soot production. I found a pretty decent artical that talks about soot generation, causes, variables and future solutions and regulations.
http://www.swri.org/3pubs/ttoday/Summer11/PDFs/ParticleEmissions.pdf (http://www.swri.org/3pubs/ttoday/Summer11/PDFs/ParticleEmissions.pdf)
Egr is used to lower cylinder temperatures by the introduction of inert gas (non combustible). Our cars do this not by injecting egr gasses in the intake, but by manipulation of cam timing. Since only our intake cams are variable, unlike our f150 brothers our egr "capacity" is a little more limited. But we still get reversion through the exhaust port to the intake stroke.
All that being said, can someone explain how a cold air intake alters the variables that produces soot or alters the already functioning egr activities of the variable cam timing?
As My E85 blend goes up, the soot disappears also. I have no idea what would cause an intake to change it.
I can confirm that the soot is gone from my pipes too. I clean them on a regular basis and since I install this intake I have not gotten any build up. I have put over 2000 miles on the car too since then, filling up at various different gas stations and brands of fuel. Not sure why it happened with this intake but I know that it has.
Maybe removing the pulses caused by the accordion?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 29, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
As My E85 blend goes up, the soot disappears also. I have no idea what would cause an intake to change it.
Neither do I. Earlier testing on my car showed no dyno difference between stock intake and filter and with filter disconnected at the accordion leaving an open hole... (3 separate comparisons using BTB pulls)... Therefore I don't really believe there's more air getting in, but it is possible, I suppose, that in moving the O2 sensor from the turbulent OEM box to the smooth pipe on the MDesign CAI the resultant airflow may be causing the sensor to send a different signal to the ECM... I cannot explain it, but continue to see essentially no tailpipe sooting...interestingly the very slight bit I've noticed (and I mean almost nothing) is in the right tailpipe tip.
Two questions:
First, does the tab on the side of the MAP sensor needto be below the gromet on the Charge Pipe? I can't remember how stock was or even when I had it on the K&N.
SEcond, what postions should the MAP sensor be in?
So far I love the look of the MDesign intake, performance wise, hard to tell...It snowed and has been extremely cold here in Chicago since I got it. Was -2 this morning. Only draw back so far, is the whooos sound that I got with the K&N is gone.
^^ I just ordered an MDesign and sold my K&N to a member - I hope I don't miss the sound too much. LOL. . I just like the look of the Mdesign so much, that swayed me.
The reduction in soot would be nice, though I did not get much at all witrh the K&N either....
For Anybody considering this, Ahmed (MDesign) has really quick responses to direct inquiries. I like that - a lot.
Quote from: WickedSHO on January 05, 2015, 10:47:46 AM
Two questions:
First, does the tab on the side of the MAP sensor needto be below the gromet on the Charge Pipe? I can't remember how stock was or even when I had it on the K&N.
SEcond, what postions should the MAP sensor be in?
So far I love the look of the MDesign intake, performance wise, hard to tell...It snowed and has been extremely cold here in Chicago since I got it. Was -2 this morning. Only draw back so far, is the whooos sound that I got with the K&N is gone.
The sensor on the intake pipe (the one that was on the OEM airbox) should be at about 7:00, fully inserted (the O-ring slot will be inside the CF tube...I took my O-ring off so it would not have a chance of ingestion by the turbos), and the sensor should be oriented so the widest part is in line with the tube (sensor it self is the bluish thing surrounded by the nylon) to expose the sensor maximally.
Don't need to touch the MAP or the TIP.
That is the sensor I was talking about the one on the charge pipe. So don't use the o-ring that came with the kit?
If the o-ring slot should be inside the CF pipe, I don't think I put mine is all the way! :(
Quote from: WickedSHO on January 05, 2015, 11:54:52 AM
That is the sensor I was talking about the one on the charge pipe. So don't use the o-ring that came with the kit?
If the o-ring slot should be inside the CF pipe, I don't think I put mine is all the way! :(
Sorry... Thought you were talking about the turbo intakes, not the hotpipes aka charge pipes... On my car the MAP has only one screw... put it in the same orientation as the OEM.
I had to free up about 1.5" of the sensor wire from the wiring harness to get the slack to seat the sensor to my satisfaction...of course, use the grommet that comes with the CAI kit to hold the sensor.
My CAI did not come with an O-ring ... My 3BAR MAP had one on it....use it to prevent boost leak.
I think I confused myself and maybe you...Sorry.
I am talking about the sensor that is attached to the CAI....I think you gave me the answer I need with your first repsonse.
Sorry about that....
Ok I'm here to clear some things up!
Use the supplied o-ring to replace the OEM blue o-ring as it is not thick enough and the new one will provide a better seal, you should insert the sensor fully into the grommet to where the o-ring is not showing. Refer to the pic below for position and there is a link to the install guide as well.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4043.0 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4043.0)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/15700531930_cfedcda9de_c.jpg)
Thanks Spartan!
Reviewing this "classic" article (http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2012/08/01/hmn_feature14.html) (i.e., going back to the basics), I believe that better air flow is causing better atomization of the fuel, reducing particulate matter/soot emissions. Since soot seems to primarily be a problem in the cold start to runup range, the air flow is improved AT LEAST through the part throttle range (since most people won't go WOT until engine is warmed up).
...As the fuel enters the air stream, it is pulled apart and broken into even smaller particles. This process can be likened to spraying an aerosol can into the atmosphere. The liquid in the can is pushed from the high pressure in the vessel to the lower pressure in the atmosphere, and is broken into what the consumer would identify as a fine spray. The proper term is atomized...
...The smaller the fuel droplets are, the greater the surface area for a given amount of discharged fuel (in pounds/hour) and, thus, there is more exposure to heat, so the phase change to a vapor becomes much more efficient...
...As the engine speed increases, the velocity through the intake manifold also goes higher, and more of the fuel is atomized than would be at low speeds...
Possibly better injectors with finer atomization patterns would be a solution, but unlikely to be an inexpensive one on a custom basis.
Not GDI related, but this Hot Rod article (http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ctrp-0309-race-engine-airflow/) provides insight into fuel/air interaction.
Yes this was my assumption as to why people have been seeing less soot on their tailpipes, a more complete and better combustion due to better air/fuel ratios which would create better atomization of the air/fuel mixture when compressed and ignited.
On a side note, for anyone looking for a MDesign Carbon Cold Air Intake we currently have 12 remaining for pre-order, details here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4211.msg65511#msg65511 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=4211.msg65511#msg65511)
I don't see it. I don't see what a change so far up the intake tract, and upstream of the turbos and intercooler would have to do with fuel atomization, which is essentially taking place exclusively in the combustion chamber.
There's no flow metering anywhere near there. So airflow seems moot. The one thing it is effectively doing is reducing restriction and perhaps playing a role intake temps and adversely, air charge temps.
Perhaps it is better filtration which is responsible for the soot reduction?
I could see it with better air fuel ratio due to less restriction, a more linear design that increases air speed and reduced intake air temperatures due to it only using ambient air. The faster the velocity the cooler the air, the cooler the air the denser it is. That helps when the air mixes with fuel in the combustion chamber, compresses and then ignites.
Hopefully with 14 kits out there some member with a dara logging rig can give us some results. We have a member performing a dyno in about 2 weeks.
Hey Spartan27, you may have posted this already, but what kind of IAT temps have you seen with your intake? Close to Ambient or closer to air temp per Nav screen?
I logged 2-3 degrees below ambient via SCT X4, there are pics floating around either in this thread or the original group buy thread.
How do you get temps below ambient? Help me understand that?
John.
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 16, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
How do you get temps below ambient? Help me understand that?
John.
I've noticed that my torque pro display is about 5-10* colder than the cars temp display. Different sensors to read the temp from.
Rich
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 16, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
How do you get temps below ambient? Help me understand that?
John.
Vehicle in motion creates a true ram air affect increasing the intake air speed = denser/cooler air, I notice temps go down the faster I go. If I cruise on the highway I can maintain a 2 degree difference under ambient.
So your intake reduces atmospheric pressure causing a state change of the moisture in the air cooling lower than the airs actual temperature. Wait, that is counter intuitive as a pressure reduction would indicate inadequate flow and the moisture is aready a gas.
"Ram air" is a way to try to increase pressure in the intake not temperature. Temperature drops TO ambient is a side effect assuming sufficient flow and thermal differentials.
No intake will ever cause the air to be cooler than ambient (unless there is extra chemistry or phase changes involved). The air coming out front of a box fan is really the same temp as the air going into the back of the box fan. Even though it's velocity is exponentially increased.
Keep the selling points physics based and not random data..
I think your design is sweet looking, but I think you are over selling it based on hearsay. (Figured you'd like that terminology)
"Data is great, but if rather discuss facts"
John
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 17, 2015, 11:56:02 AM
So your intake reduces atmospheric pressure causing a state change of the moisture in the air cooling lower than the airs actual temperature. Wait, that is counter intuitive as a pressure reduction would indicate inadequate flow and the moisture is aready a gas.
"Ram air" is a way to try to increase pressure in the intake not temperature. Temperature drops TO ambient is a side effect assuming sufficient flow and thermal differentials.
No intake will ever cause the air to be cooler than ambient (unless there is extra chemistry or phase changes involved). The air coming out front of a box fan is really the same temp as the air going into the back of the box fan. Even though it's velocity is exponentially increased.
Keep the selling points physics based and not random data..
I think your design is sweet looking, but I think you are over selling it based on hearsay. (Figured you'd like that terminology)
"Data is great, but if rather discuss facts"
John
I have never stated that my intake reduces atmospheric pressure nor have I stated it caused a state change, these are terms you have introduced.
What I have said, as others have been reporting as well, is that we are seeing temperatures close to ambient or slightly below while in motion. Below is a run done this morning at a steady speed, near the end is WOT which is why the temperature drops to 23.
http://youtu.be/Co68js7GSQ0 (http://youtu.be/Co68js7GSQ0)
The 'outside temp' sensor and the intake temp sensor are two different instruments. This alone can be the cause of any variations. The position of the sensors is another, the intake one being protected and in a darker (assumingly cooler spot).
Quote from: J-Will on January 17, 2015, 04:09:58 PM
The 'outside temp' sensor and the intake temp sensor are two different instruments. This alone can be the cause of any variations. The position of the sensors is another, the intake one being protected and in a darker (assumingly cooler spot).
We have a member on the boards who is going to be doing a dyno run in a week or two, one thing I will ask to get data on from the dyno will be the IAT2 data as I believe that is the one after the intercooler. The member is going from a K&N to the MDesign so hopefully we will see the similar results to the AirRaid v. MDesign.
If it's possible to dyno it vs. the stock box, I'd suggest that. I think that would be the best one to compare to overall.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 17, 2015, 07:09:06 PM
If it's possible to dyno it vs. the stock box, I'd suggest that. I think that would be the best one to compare to overall.
Rich
I believe he is doing that as well, I'll contact him and see if he can get a thread going for the dyno that way you guys can ask him for any specifications for the dyno.
Maybe I am not understanding this...but you are seeing temps below ambient at WOT, but on a consitant basis, I have yet to get anywhere near ambient temp.
Maybe I have the intake installed incorrectly. Most of the time, normal driving, I see temps right about what the Nav screen says.
Quote from: WickedSHO on January 21, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Maybe I am not understanding this...but you are seeing temps below ambient at WOT, but on a consitant basis, I have yet to get anywhere near ambient temp.
Maybe I have the intake installed incorrectly. Most of the time, normal driving, I see temps right about what the Nav screen says.
Try comparing to weather channel app temp. I find that torque ambient is 6-10* cooler than my cars display, and the actual temp outside falling in between the 2 most of the time.
Rich
Does it really matter if it is +2 degrees above ambient? With the obvious sensor error exhibited in this thread it's probably safe to say that the intake is getting as close to ambient temp air as possible (below is impossible) right now. Good job MDesign on that specific kpi (key performance indicator).
John
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 21, 2015, 04:47:57 PM
Does it really matter if it is +2 degrees above ambient? With the obvious sensor error exhibited in this thread it's probably safe to say that the intake is getting as close to ambient temp air as possible (below is impossible) right now. Good job MDesign on that specific kpi (key performance indicator).
John
No, I do not think it does. This is my impression as well
Any sound difference from the stock airbox?
How long to go back between stock and MDesign for warranty work?
How often does the filter need replaced? Easy to find on Amazon?
Trying t justify over $350 for an air intake.
Its a k&n filter, so it only needs cleaned
All intakes are pretty straight forward as far as replacement goes. Its probably a 5min endeavor.
I don't want to speak for him but MDesign is essentially a one man shop. I wouldn't expect a lucrative warranty.
The key aspect in any CAI is to sutain and more importanly see gains over the stock oem box which every intake is lacking of and hopefully Ahmeds CAI can deliver both performance and sound cause to me personally love to hear those turbos spool,and to be fair and unbiased the intake setup is top notch and the setup is great for heat dissipation,but what worries me is that the intake is so sealed up that it could suppress the sound level in order to hear those bad boys spool,some may differ on my opinion,if performance and sound is achieved,will be a potential buyer,guess sometimes you cant have both of best worlds,but that was the only thing holding me personally back,until otherwise proved on the dyno results and opinions from others on sound quality,just my 2cent why i'm holding back,thanks,Z.
Hey guys, thanks for the kind words.
You can go from MDesign to stock intake in 5 minutes flat, you would remove the front 2 bolts, the clamp connecting to the rest of the intake, remove the sensor and then just lift up and out. Simplicity was key when designing the intake as well as efficiency.
As for sound you definitely hear it, I'll try posting up a video soon (it's been snowing in Michigan).
Filter is washable and does not need to be replaced. You can use any aftermarket cotton filter recharge kit (K&N, AEM, etc.) to clean the filter and oil it if you please. Here is an example of the cleaning process from K&N.
http://www.knfilters.com/cleaning.htm (http://www.knfilters.com/cleaning.htm)
The main difference between the MDesign and other intakes (Air Raid or K&N) is that anytime you can see the filter it is not a cold air intake as it is ingesting warm, engine bay heat. Our system is a true cold air intake similar to the OEM setup with less restrictions and is made out of real carbon fiber (none of that vinyl stuff).
Ok, I'm game. Do we still get the forum discount?
Please send me payment details and I'll paypal it out.
Quote from: PokerMunkee on January 22, 2015, 12:18:32 PM
Ok, I'm game. Do we still get the forum discount?
Please send me payment details and I'll paypal it out.
Sent you a PM.
By the way I just want to throw this out there as I saw a comment regarding separate hard pipes to each turbo.
We tried designing the intake with individual pipes to each turbo (similar to Hennessey) and it causes issue with turbulence, you will not have equal lengths to each turbo. This is the reason the OEM intake is designed the way it is, and the reason we retained it on the MDesign Carbon Cold Air Intake. You can think of this effect the same way with happens in exhaust systems and why X/H-pipes are used. The MDesign intake has been long in development and has had more than 3 prototypes to achieve what we have today.
Also we have now
another dyno session scheduled, so 2 sets of results coming soon.
Quote from: MDesign on January 22, 2015, 03:26:37 PM
Quote from: PokerMunkee on January 22, 2015, 12:18:32 PM
Ok, I'm game. Do we still get the forum discount?
Please send me payment details and I'll paypal it out.
Sent you a PM.
By the way I just want to throw this out there as I saw a comment regarding separate hard pipes to each turbo.
We tried designing the intake with individual pipes to each turbo (similar to Hennessey) and it causes issue with turbulence, you will not have equal lengths to each turbo. This is the reason the OEM intake is designed the way it is, and the reason we retained it on the MDesign Carbon Cold Air Intake. You can think of this effect the same way with happens in exhaust systems and why X/H-pipes are used. The MDesign intake has been long in development and has had more than 3 prototypes to achieve what we have today.
Also we have now another dyno session scheduled, so 2 sets of results coming soon.
I remember the earlier designs Ahmad worked with and the math on them as far as flow vs. diameter and friction, etc. I would be open to revisit it
IF dyno evidence was presented rather than assumption... I assume too, but only to develop the hypothesis to be tested. To get this info about airflow in turbo feeds might take a tune tweak, but certainly would involve dyno pulls with turbo intake flange open to air as opposed to having the entire intake attached and performance would have to be the benchmark to be reached. Maybe someone is willing to disconnect the system on a hot transverse 3.5 TT engine to find out.
I'd also point out that faster moving air is better since it has less exposure to heat per unit time, like in the OEM setup. With separate tubes air moment is slower if they are of the same diameter as OEM intake to the two turbos. So, right now, it is just where the equalization takes place... in the turbo intake tube (like OEM) or in the filter box (with a dual turbo feed), if they are the same size there will be more heating of intake air, especially if metal tubing is used (the MDesign uses CF). I've seen no evidence regarding the ability of the stock turbos to use more airflow or how much. ... So I believe currently that separate feed tubing to each turbo is an aesthetic preference for appearance and perhaps sound... no dis... everyone has a plan!
I do love the appearance of the MDesign, the ability to access my tranny dipstick without dismantling the car, the sound changes, and the almost complete disappearance of soot buildup in my exhaust tips.
Please test it with the hood closed and car at normal operating temperature on the dyno.
You could avoid momentum loss and heat gain on a split design with skinnier tubing and a dimpled inside surface on the tubing, assuming CF/heat rejecting material of course. The exact numbers would need some computer modeling, keeping in mind minimization & equalization of backpressure. Uneven inside diameter likely between the 2 sides. Would it look as good or be as simple to install as the MDesign? I dunno.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on January 22, 2015, 04:26:01 PM
Please test it with the hood closed and car at normal operating temperature on the dyno.
With the hood closed the intake draws air from the same location and in the same fashion of the OEM intake. I will let the members/clients who are doing the testing know about having the hood down.
Quote from: SHOdded on January 22, 2015, 04:39:18 PMWould it look as good or be as simple to install as the MDesign?
It would definitely take longer to install from experience as you are removing all turbo intake piping up to the turbos. Also I believe looking good means removing as little of the OEM engineered design as possible, which the MDesign CAI also accomplishes. Aluminum, metal pipes are not an improvement over the OEM plastic. Even when using sealed filters on the setup below it still did not perform as well as the production run MDesign CAI.
(http://i.imgur.com/iOHQkyO.jpg)
I do like the looks of the setup there though :)
Quote from: SHOdded on January 22, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
I do like the looks of the setup there though :)
Thank you! I try my best to make everything look good, even the prototypes ;)
Nothing beats the class and sophistication of genuine carbon fiber though! :chay:
Quote from: 91hybrid on January 21, 2015, 04:47:57 PM
Does it really matter if it is +2 degrees above ambient? With the obvious sensor error exhibited in this thread it's probably safe to say that the intake is getting as close to ambient temp air as possible (below is impossible) right now. Good job MDesign on that specific kpi (key performance indicator).
John
Why a few degrees doesn't really matter:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4262.msg66240/topicseen.html#new (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4262.msg66240/topicseen.html#new)
EDITED for argumentative nature of posting carried over from another forum/location.
Ok.....I have read 10 pages of heated arguments over this intake. I am on the fence, either a sealed insulted Windstorm/Air raid or this MD cai. Icare only of reliable performance need no extra noises don't want to loose anything. What happened to the two end all dyno runs with the MD,? Do I assume they not go well so no mention of results? Anymore info, updates?
Here is a comparison between three intakes,hope this helps any. Z
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4705.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4705.0.html)