Found this video this morning from Ford Tech Makuloco. It officially covers the F150 through 5/2015 manufacture. ford is touting the new fix as a permanent cure. It not only involves the replacement of the stretched timing chain, but also involves replacement of both the intake and exhaust cam phasers. Most important it does not require anything to be present except the startup rattle.... Not a DTC, timing problems, or anything else required to get it done other than the rattle. I suspect that the same will be forthcoming for the transverse 3.5 GDI soon if your dealer won't honor it now. Again currently it is for the F150. Here's the link to the video:
http://youtu.be/OFhvUFtnBCk (http://youtu.be/OFhvUFtnBCk)
Sounds like the start of a series on new TSBs.
GREAT video BiGMaC ,btw they also have an updated timing chain to help on the issue. Z
Just FYI guys, we only have one cam phaser on each head, the F150 platform has two cam phasers. I think this added strain is was is causing extra wear on things. I really haven't heard much startup rattle in the transverse platform.
Quote from: bamsho on September 05, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
Just FYI guys, we only have one cam phaser on each head, the F150 platform has two cam phasers. I think this added strain is was is causing extra wear on things. I really haven't heard much startup rattle in the transverse platform.
I have the startup rattle if I let the car sit for more than a day.
Wow Glock, your the first that I have heard.
Pretty sure painter pat and a few other flex owners and a few SHO on here have it at one time or another . It's not nearly as bad as the f150 I've heard online, but it's definitely there. I'll try to get a sound clip tomorrow.
Agree with Glock,quite a few have exhibited these symptoms one time or another and mostly happens when the vehicle has not been driven for a few days or more,from my experience find it important to frequently change the oil and sticking to the same grade,weight so it does not cause delay on the cam phasers which could lead also to loss of power.. Z
Ohhh mine does it alright. 49k not cool, past 5 yr warranty now so looks like I get to fix it
I think an argument could be made that it is part of emissions equipment (Variable Camshaft Timing Kit), so should be under the 7/70 (or longer in CA) coverage. If you have had it in for service for this issue before, the case is even stronger.
I remember reading a thread a couple years ago about startup rattle and oil filters. It seemed that certain brands would cause more startup rattle but I can't find the thread now.
Thinking of this thread perhaps?
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,696 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,696)
or this one started by painterpatt :)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,872 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,872)
Usually, if it is oil filter related, installing an OEM Motorcraft FL500s filter helps minimize/stop the "brief rattle at startup" symptom. glock has a Fram Ultra Guard that works for his 2010 SHO. If you are using 5w20 spec, see if 5w30 makes any difference. One change at a time though, so you know whether it is the filter or the oil that made the difference.
Keeping those cam phasers lubricated is a challenge due to the tiny oil passages built into them. If they pick up ANY gunk, that spells trouble. You COULD try running an engine cleaner like AutoRX through the oil see if it helps the rattle subside any, but IDK.
There are at least two types of cam phasers on the market:
Oil Pressure Actuated (OPA)
Cam Torque Actuated (CTA)
Not sure which one the EB's use.
CTA phasers are independent of oil pressure for their function, described as such by Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/cam-torque-actuated-variable-valve-timing-system-feature):
"Most modern variable valve-timing (VVT) systems use a cam phaser that rotates the position of each camshaft relative to the timing chain. Think of making a record turntable go faster or slower by spinning it with your hands. The cam phaser has two basic components: an outer sprocket connected to the timing chain and an inner rotor (connected to the camshaft) that varies the valve timing by adjusting the rotation angle of the cam.
This inner rotor consists of a set of lobes, and oil fills the space between the outer housing and the lobes. Left alone, the rotor will simply spin at the same rate as the outer housing. If you add oil to one side of the lobe and remove it from the other, the rotor moves, and—voilà!—there's your variable valve timing.
The majority of these VVT systems use oil pressure to push the rotor back and forth, but BorgWarner thinks its cam-torque-actuated (CTA) system marks an important step forward. Oil-pressure-actuated (OPA) systems require an upsize oil pump to produce the extra pressure that's required to work the cam phasers, which saps some of the fuel-economy gains of VVT. With a mechanical oil pump, OPA systems don't work well at low engine speeds because the pump doesn't build pressure and volume until the revs get higher.
The CTA system avoids those pitfalls by using Newton's Third Law of Motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction—to move the oil in the cam phasers. When a cam lobe pushes a valve open, the valve spring resists that force and pushes back. Similarly, when the valve spring pushes a valve closed, it also pushes on the cam lobe in the opposite direction from the valve opening. When multiplied over an entire camshaft, there is enough energy from these back-and-forth forces to make cam phasing work.
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/media/51/upf-techvalvetiming-2-photo-359889-s-cd-gallery-1-photo-464147-s-original.jpg)
Another trick to BorgWarner's system is the way it moves oil. A center spool valve, controlled by a solenoid inside the cam-phasing rotor, directs the flow. With the valve open in one direction, oil flows into only one side of the oil pockets and can't leave. By sliding the valve back and forth, the system can mete out the precise amount of oil flow on either side of the rotor lobes.
The key advantages of the CTA system are that it responds quickly even at idle and can operate using a standard engine's oil pump. But there are downsides. As engine speeds increase, the CTA system becomes less effective. This happens because the valve events occur more frequently, reducing the time available to move the oil. Conversely, OPA systems work better as oil pressure increases and are better at high rpm. So there's not much of a peak power gain from a CTA system; it improves performance and efficiency in other areas of the rev range. Also, CTA cam phasing is at the mercy of the natural oscillations of those forces on the camshaft. Valve openings and closings in an inline-six are spaced too closely for the system to work well. But a V-6 (or inline-three) is perfectly suited because there isn't as much overlap between each valve event. The system also works on V-8 engines.
CTA variable valve timing debuted on Ford's 3.0-liter Duratec V-6, beginning with the 2009 Escape and the 2010 Fusion. The 3.7-liter V-6 in the Mustang uses BorgWarner's system, too, as do the 2011 Edge and Lincoln MKX. You can also find it on the Mustang's 5.0-liter V-8 as well as the V-8 engines used in Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles. These engines' efficiencies show the virtues of the CTA system."
Borg Warner's video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBzwp9YnAyA) on YT (more available by searching):
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBzwp9YnAyA#)
FORD CTA Torque Valve Timing video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHO1vD3B4uQ):
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHO1vD3B4uQ#)
Oh, an oft-mentioned but frequently-forgotten fact:
If you are getting your oil changes at the dealer, INSIST on knowing what oil they are putting into your vehicle's engine. You might be in for a rude awakening!
http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007 (http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007)
BiGMaC, for one, knows exactly what's going in :thumb: ;)
I've had the startup rattle/knock for a few years now on my 2010. It's worse first thing in the morning, or after a day or two. Sometimes worse than others.
I just switched to Amsoil hoping it might help, but, nope, no change. Always used the Motorcraft filter.
Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOdded on September 06, 2015, 05:16:55 AM
Thinking of this thread perhaps?
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,696 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,696)
or this one started by painterpatt :)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,872 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,872)
Usually, if it is oil filter related, installing an OEM Motorcraft FL500s filter helps minimize/stop the "brief rattle at startup" symptom. glock has a Fram Ultra Guard that works for his 2010 SHO. If you are using 5w20 spec, see if 5w30 makes any difference. One change at a time though, so you know whether it is the filter or the oil that made the difference.
Keeping those cam phasers lubricated is a challenge due to the tiny oil passages built into them. If they pick up ANY gunk, that spells trouble. You COULD try running an engine cleaner like AutoRX through the oil see if it helps the rattle subside any, but IDK.
Did a little more searching, here's the one i remember. :)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2178.msg30871.html#msg30871 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2178.msg30871.html#msg30871)
The fram filter was only a temporary fix. If did come back with more frequency.
I did switch back to a Motorcraft filter and the rattle remains.
Sounds like more SHO's/Flex's headed to the dealer for timing chain rattle issues soon! Anybody in the X Sport community have these issues?
I wonder if any of you with these symptoms have any DTC CODES SET. Z
No dtc for me. I make it a habit of checking every week for something random
That doesn't throw a cel
I guess with engine oil used to operate the cam phasers keeping the oil clean and changing the oil frequently with help the situation from the start,preventative maintenance is critical in order for your vehicle to run to its full potential,the PCM opens the valves to control the cam phasers,if dirty oil is detected and the phaser not responing correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC,an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard,sometimes by changing the oil the problem goes away. Z
It does help if you floor the gas pedal while starting, it doesn't start, just cranks for a few seconds before it fires over.
Edit for spelling.
Quote from: glock-coma on September 06, 2015, 10:29:20 AM
It does help if floor the gas pedal while starting donut just cranks for a few seconds before it fires over.
Sounds like it should... "Cold start priming mode" in the manual. I don't routinely do this in Phx, but I have a habit of not moving the car until the engine shows at least minimum operating temp.
I would surmise from the video that by the time a DTC or CEL appear you'd be at risk of catastrophic engine failure and have significant timing chain damage..... Like Manu I'm interested in seeing how many are noting a startup rattle that resolves in 3.5 EB platforms other than the F150.
Short snippet of info, new chain & phasers:
http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007/index136/#post4237214 (http://www.f150forum.com/f70/2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-204007/index136/#post4237214)
"
QuoteOriginally Posted by Salinger
Cord,
There are 4 cams phasers on the 3.5L EB. This is what they call "TI-VCT" for Twin-Independant Cam Variable Timing.
As you can see in this TBS (not sure if this is the last update?) for the timing chain replacement, there is the description of the two Intake & two exaust phasers.
Well truck is going under the knife this morning. This will be the third time the engine has been torn apart. The dealer is paying to have the drivers side intake phaser replaced, I'm going to pony up and pay for the updated timing chain and the passenger side phaser. They'll inspect the guides and replace them if there is any noticeable wear. We are not planning on replacing the exhaust phasers as I feel the slave chain may have protected them from the damaging harmonics. I did ask the dealer to compare the chains and I sure hope they do. They set me up with a rental so I plan on stopping over several times and try to catch the engine apart so I can inspect it. I'll post pics and/or a youtube vid if I can.
For the record, I have 121,000 on the engine so there is roughly 45,000 miles on the replacement chain. It'll be interesting to see how much wear has occurred in that time. I know that I'm only seeing 2-3 degrees of timing error so this chain seems to be holding up better than the original one which failed at 75,000 miles.
For some reason, I'm feeling like this could be the permanent fix we've been wanting. "
"They got the front cover off this morning. Looks like my existing chain has stretched 1/2" over the new one. The tech said the adjuster was on the 5th notch which to him was borderline to seeing stretch issues. That would leave only two notches of adjustment remaining. So, over 45,000 miles of use, there was definitely a new problem creeping in. Guides looked good for 121,000 miles. The one guide had a groove maybe .010 deep and the other guide maybe .020. They were planning on reusing the guides. Surprise to me, but they ordered all 4 phasers. We had talked about him buying one and me buying the second so we'll have to see where the cost lands for the other two. I asked the tech to save me the phasers so I can tear them down. It'll be interesting to compare a high mileage phaser to one that only has moderate mileage. Hoping it'll be back together tomorrow so I can haul a atv up north for the weekend.
Have the 11's received a updated part number for the chain? For some reason, I'm thinking the newer trucks got a updated part and not the first year.
During my conversation with the tech, he said that mine was the loudest he's ever heard. I knew it had been getting worse, but the way he mulled on the point got me thinking that I must have gotten use to the noise. He also said this will be the fifth truck he's replaced a chain on."
(http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f70/387521d1436465767-2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-2015-07-09-12.51.04.jpg)
(http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f70/387523d1436466199-2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-2015-07-09-12.55.50.jpg)
(http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f70/387524d1436466218-2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-2015-07-09-12.55.24.jpg)
(http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f70/387525d1436466240-2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-2015-07-09-12.55.39.jpg)
"
QuoteOriginally Posted by oldwrench
Explanation of the "stretched" chain , and what causes it:
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/338 (http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/338)
Actually, I think you are hitting upon the cause of the stretch. I've been following the recommended intervals for a oil change; roughly every 10,000 miles. I was doing this because I was already having a problem and didn't want to have the CEL come on a month or two out of the 2 year repair warranty. Now that the chain has been replaced (again) I'll go to a 5,000 mile interval. The tint to the aluminum was there already at 75,000 miles, but it's definetly darker now. If you look close you can see the passenger side intake phaser is slightly lighter because it was replaced. There is some varnish starting to show up in the areas which are not well washed with oil (under the passenger exhaust phaser). Tech wasn't concerned with the varnish, but I thought it was more than I was expecting."
(http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f70/387618d1436549715-2011-ecoboost-noise-start-up-2015-07-09-12.54.41.jpg)
Quote from: BiGMaC on September 06, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
Quote from: glock-coma on September 06, 2015, 10:29:20 AM
It does help if floor the gas pedal while starting donut just cranks for a few seconds before it fires over.
Sounds like it should... "Cold start priming mode" in the manual. I don't routinely do this in Phx, but I have a habit of not moving the car until the engine shows at least minimum operating temp.
Yeah, they need the PCM programmed to prime the oil for a few seconds automatically before starting so the driver doesn't have to. Could be a relatively cheap fix for Ford.
I found a cool article ,hope it helps some. Z
Ti-VCT and EcoBoost
The 3.5L V6 (base) engine in the PI Sedan and the 3.7L V6 engine in the PI Utility use Twin independent Variable Cam Timing, Ti-VCT. That means all four cams are separately controlled by cam phasers and phase solenoids. (The four cams are one intake cam and one exhaust cam for both banks of the V6.) Ti-VCT, or variable valve timing, means each cam can be individually advanced or retarded (with respect to the crank and pistons) to produce the best power and the best fuel economy.
The 3.5L EcoBoost (twin turbo) V6 was discussed in detail during the course. Two important differences exist between the EcoBoost V6 and the other two police engines. The EcoBoost engine uses turbochargers and the EcoBoost engine uses direct injection.
The function of all the turbo and direct injection components were described and the location identified. For example, the direct injection uses two fuel pumps: a low pressure (65 psi) pump and a high-pressure (2150 psi) pump. Hear that subtle whir sound when the door unlock tab on the key fob is pressed? Or when the door is open and the courtesy lamp circuit is activated? That is the low pressure pump priming the direct-injection high-pressure system.
The second day was the core of the tech training. How about basic engine operation? The appropriate WSM and PC/ED service publications were pulled up. What section of the WSM describes turbocharger service procedures? Fuel Charging and Control. What is the function of the Adaptive Spark Ignition strategy? It retards ignition to prevent pre-detonation (ping). What symptom would occur if the Demand Control Valve electric circuit was interrupted, cut or disconnected? The engine will start, run and idle well, but it will not have much power.
Where is the Charge Air Cooler sensor located in relation to the throttle plate? It is upstream of the throttle plate. Do the 3.5L Ti-VCT and 3.7L Ti-VCT have a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor? Or a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor? Or both? The Ti-VCT engines have only a MAF, while the EcoBoost engine has two MAPs.
Right Oil is Critical
Engine oil has always been used as a lubricant and as a coolant. What new function does engine oil perform on Ti-VCT engines that it never did on the Ford CVPI 4.6L V8? It acts as hydraulic fluid to operate the cam phasers.
With engine oil used to operate the cam phasers, two aspects of preventative maintenance become even more critical. First, these new Police Interceptor engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC: an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard.
Exactly the same condition can occur with dirty oil, specifically oil that has depleted the anti-foam additives. Oil with tiny foam (air) bubbles is more compressible than oil with no foam. So, oil under pressure has to break these tiny bubbles before it can act as a true hydraulic fluid. That will cause a slight delay in the response of the cam phasers to the PCM command.
It won't be much of a delay, but the PCM again monitors actual versus expected and can throw a DTC. Change the oil and the problem goes away. How about using synthetic oil? Nope. It is the anti-foam additive package that gets depleted, not the breakdown of the base stock.
So the phasers are definitely OPA and not CTA in our EB/PI applications. Good to know! Considered "older"/"more reliable" or simply more "costeffective"?
No DTC for me either
Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk
TSB 15-0131: 3.5L GTDI - COLD START - TICKING-TAPPING OR RATTLE TYPE NOISE - BUILT ON OR BEFORE 5-29-2015
FORD: 2011-2015 F-150
ISSUE
Some 2011-2015 F-150 vehicles equipped with a 3.5L Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDI) engine and built on or before 5/29/2015 may exhibit a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial start-up that may last for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of six or more hours.
ACTION
Follow the Service Procedure steps to correct the condition.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
1. Check the vehicle build date. Was the vehicle built on or before 5/29/2015?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 2.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
2. Does the customer state a ticking/tapping or rattle type noise occurs from the top front cover area of the engine upon initial cold start-up that lasts for 2-5 seconds after a cold soak of 6 or more hours?
a. Yes - proceed to Step 3.
b. No - this procedure does not apply. Refer to WSM, Section 303-00 for normal diagnosis.
3. Replace all four variable camshaft timing (VCT) units and primary timing chain. Refer to WSM, Section 303-01.
PART NUMBER PART NAME
AT4Z-6256-B Intake VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6C525-B Exhaust VCT Unit (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-D Bolt - Intake VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6279-E Bolt - Exhaust VCT (2 Req)
AT4Z-6268-C Chain - Primary Timing
AA5Z-9439-A Gasket - Intake
BL3Z-6584-A Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Left Side
BR3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2011–2012)
DL3Z-6584-B Gasket - Camshaft Cover - Right Side (2013–2015)
BL3Z-9E583-B O-ring - High Pressure Pump
BR3Z-8507-C Gasket - Pump
BR3Z-8527-A O-ring - Pump
7T4Z-8590-A Seal - Coolant inlet
XW4Z-6700-AA Seal - Crank
BR3Z-6020-A Seal - Front Cover Radial
F5RZ-6A340-B Bolt - Damper
TA-357 Motorcraft® High Performance Engine RTV Silicone
ZC-30-A Motorcraft® Silicone Gasket Remover
ZC-31-B Motorcraft® Metal Surface Prep
VC-3-B Motorcraft® Orange Antifreeze/Coolant Concentrated
XO-5W30-QSP Motorcraft® SAE 5W-30 Premium Synthetic Blend Motor Oil
OPERATION DESCRIPTION TIME
150131A 2011-2014 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 9.2 Hrs.
150131A 2015 F-150 3.5L GTDI: Replace All Four VCT Units And The Primary Timing Chain (Do Not Use With Any Other Labor Operations) 8.8 Hrs.
WARRANTY STATUS:
Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage And Emissions Warranty Coverage
Warranty/ESP coverage limits/policies/prior approvals are not altered by a TSB. Warranty/ESP coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part and verified using the OASIS part coverage tool.
DEALER CODING
BASIC PART NO. CONDITION CODE
6C525 42
I see that it falls under the emissions warranty coverage. Is that 7 years ?
Just started a survey on a 1700 member ecoboost page...truck heavy is the page, and yet more transverse complaints so far
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOnUup on September 06, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Just started a survey on a 1700 member ecoboost page...truck heavy is the page, and yet more transverse complaints so far
Interesting info....Maybe we need to start a campaign... I figured that even with reduced number of cam phasers in the transverse 3.5 GDI the issue would be common... Maybe we can get Ford to issue a TSB for us.
I've not had this happen on my car w/ just over 41k miles now and it can sit for a week some times. The wife's truck hasn't shown this particular issue either and she's got just a tick over 38k miles on the '13. I typically don't look at the mileage when doing oil changes simply because that doesn't take into account any extended idling time (i.e. remote starting or sitting in traffic, etc.) where the ECU should and thusly reduce the oil life % remaining appropriately. Once I see them hit the 50% mark I plan their oil changes. I only use Mobil One Extended oil as well as their filters.
But now that this is all coming to a head with this new TSB I'm going to keep an eye on both cars for any startup noises going forward.
Quote from: BiGMaC on September 06, 2015, 12:39:54 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on September 06, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Just started a survey on a 1700 member ecoboost page...truck heavy is the page, and yet more transverse complaints so far
Interesting info....Maybe we need to start a campaign... I figured that even with reduced number of cam phasers in the transverse 3.5 GDI the issue would be common... Maybe we can get Ford to issue a TSB for us.
Survey is at 8 transverse to ZERO F150 so far (not much action)...couple MKS & Flex...rest SHO
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Quote from: SHOnUup on September 06, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Just started a survey on a 1700 member ecoboost page...truck heavy is the page, and yet more transverse complaints so far
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Lol, we are a contrary bunch, lol.....
Quote from: SHOnUup on September 06, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
Just started a survey on a 1700 member ecoboost page...truck heavy is the page, and yet more transverse complaints so far
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
im not on Facebook, you can add me to the list.
Crap, I think my 15 SHO has this. Just noticed it the other day. Subscribing to remind myself to video it.
I have a 2010 SHO with 80,000 and I've noticed the rattle since around 39,000 miles most of the time on cold starts.
What are the factors Ford uses before a TSB is generated? I think most SHO owners thought it was normal so not many have complained.
Haven't a clue what drives a TSB generation, but I'd think a combination of complaints, service calls, and engineer-assisted enquiries meeting some statistical significance.
OASIS MESSAGE :
SOME 2007-2010 MKZ/EDGE/MKX, 2008-2010 TAURUS, 2008-2009 SABLE/TAURUS X, 2009/2010 FLEX/MKS, 2010 MKT/FUSION EQUIPPED WITH A 3.5L V6 OR 3.7L V6 ENGINE MAY EXHIBIT A LIGHT TICKING NOISE AFTER A COLD START WHICH MAY LAST UNTIL ENGINEWARM UP. THE NOISE IS DUE TO THE COMBINATION OF LIGHT LOAD OPERATING CONDITIONS AND THE NORMAL CYLINDER HEAD AND VALVETRAIN CLEARANCES PRESENT IN A COLD ENGINE.THIS NOISE DOES NOT AFFECT PERFORMANCE OR LONG-TERM DURABILITY OF THE ENGINE.
Can someone explain the start rattle? Is that where it feels like its misfiring? and you see your rpms dip a bit? I've been trying to chase this issue down with my car.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on September 14, 2015, 01:47:33 PM
Can someone explain the start rattle? Is that where it feels like its misfiring? and you see your rpms dip a bit? I've been trying to chase this issue down with my car.
It's like this, but not nearly as bad
http://youtu.be/2yGPqSYGi5E
I know many 11+ F-150 cannot differentiate between a timing chain rattle or a vacuum pump issue,think they have a re-designed pump which seems to be a more feasible solution than the timing chain. Z
Thought I would share a startup rattle from my 2010 SHO. Took these videos this summer as it had between 55k-60k miles on it.
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150815_102452538.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150815_102452538.mp4)
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150821_073524526.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150821_073524526.mp4)
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150828_075733945.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150828_075733945.mp4)
On the first link, you can hear it best. I would say that one is around the medium volume level. I've heard it much louder. The other two are not as loud. It really isn't consistent as far as the loudness goes. That's why it is difficult to capture it on video (who's gonna video every startup).
I keep wondering how much a pre-oiler may or may not help protect our engines from any start up rattles due to bad cam phasers and/or the tensioner on the timing chain.
Quote from: SHOdded on September 13, 2015, 07:49:15 PM
Haven't a clue what drives a TSB generation, but I'd think a combination of complaints, service calls, and engineer-assisted enquiries meeting some statistical significance.
Thats also what most tech's rely on to further rectify any issues your having,you can refer a TSB as a (safety net). Z
Quote from: 66 Galaxie on September 15, 2015, 07:30:43 AM
I keep wondering how much a pre-oiler may or may not help protect our engines from any start up rattles due to bad cam phasers and/or the tensioner on the timing chain.
If the oil pump is independently controllable, with or without engine running, maybe the PCM programming can be updated to prime the oil, just like the fuel pump is primed prior to start.
Quote from: markssho on September 14, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
Thought I would share a startup rattle from my 2010 SHO. Took these videos this summer as it had between 55k-60k miles on it.
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150815_102452538.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150815_102452538.mp4)
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150821_073524526.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150821_073524526.mp4)
http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150828_075733945.mp4 (http://vid1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag404/markssho/SHO2/VID_20150828_075733945.mp4)
On the first link, you can hear it best. I would say that one is around the medium volume level. I've heard it much louder. The other two are not as loud. It really isn't consistent as far as the loudness goes. That's why it is difficult to capture it on video (who's gonna video every startup).
Your first video is exactly what mine sound like. Very inconsistent loudness and sometimes doesn't do it at all.
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/2005_16_09_15_9_16_13.jpeg)
LOL! Aye, Captain, sir!
Maybe even ROFL!
my SHO makes this rattle at cold start ups. I had a feeling that's what the noise was.
Any idea if it's just a noise or if it'll eventually cause a problem ?
What it the repair cost ? I'm at 73K miles. Had this noise going on for about 10K miles. The noise is pronounced but goes away real quickly. My car still runs strong so I can't tell it's causing any other problems at this point.
I have a 2012 Titanium Ecoboost Flex with 41,000 mile on it. That is exactly what my Flex sounds like on a cold start.
http://vid13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/dirkdiggler90504/IMG_2593.mp4 (http://vid13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/dirkdiggler90504/IMG_2593.mp4)
http://vid13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/dirkdiggler90504/IMG_0140.mp4 (http://vid13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/dirkdiggler90504/IMG_0140.mp4)
Guys, so whats the bottom line concerning oil weights and our engines including this possible issue?
5w20 or 30?
Quote from: MeanKS on December 13, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
Guys, so whats the bottom line concerning oil weights and our engines including this possible issue?
5w20 or 30?
Guys,....owners manual lol
Quote from: MeanKS on December 13, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
Guys, so whats the bottom line concerning oil weights and our engines including this possible issue?
5w20 or 30?
I think that the longer the drain interval, the more likely you should move up to 5W30. But if you use the severe duty intervals, 5W20 should be fine. If you then start hearing rattle (even 1-2 seconds long), try switching out to the 5W30, and see if that helps.
Quote from: ajpturbo on December 13, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
Quote from: MeanKS on December 13, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
Guys, so whats the bottom line concerning oil weights and our engines including this possible issue?
5w20 or 30?
Guys,....owners manual lol
It changed from 5-20 in gen 4.1 to 5-30 in 4.2
I suspect there was a good reason for the switch.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 14, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: ajpturbo on December 13, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
Quote from: MeanKS on December 13, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
Guys, so whats the bottom line concerning oil weights and our engines including this possible issue?
5w20 or 30?
Guys,....owners manual lol
It changed from 5-20 in gen 4.1 to 5-30 in 4.2
I suspect there was a good reason for the switch.
Of course there is...motorcraft oil shears something terrible in just a couple thousand miles.....same reason they call for 5w-50 in my coyote 5.0 mustang..they want headroom when their oil shears
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 14, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
It changed from 5-20 in gen 4.1 to 5-30 in 4.2
I suspect there was a good reason for the switch.
Even earlier. In the 2011 (Gen 4.1) OM, 5W30 is listed. EB engines across the board use 5W30 now, not 5W20. The NA engines use 5W20.
I would just use a good quality synthetic oil changed at 5k intervals and here's an article that might help a bit. Z Right Oil is Critical
Engine oil has always been used as a lubricant and as a coolant. What new function does engine oil perform on Ti-VCT engines that it never did on the Ford CVPI 4.6L V8? It acts as hydraulic fluid to operate the cam phasers.
With engine oil used to operate the cam phasers, two aspects of preventative maintenance become even more critical. First, these new Police Interceptor engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM will cause a DTC: an error in action versus expected cam advance or retard.
Exactly the same condition can occur with dirty oil, specifically oil that has depleted the anti-foam additives. Oil with tiny foam (air) bubbles is more compressible than oil with no foam. So, oil under pressure has to break these tiny bubbles before it can act as a true hydraulic fluid. That will cause a slight delay in the response of the cam phasers to the PCM command.
It won't be much of a delay, but the PCM again monitors actual versus expected and can throw a DTC. Change the oil and the problem goes away. How about using synthetic oil? Nope. It is the anti-foam additive package that gets depleted, not the breakdown of the base stock.
So what is the fix for this my engine light just came on I suspect it might be pulling timing now.
Quote from: 68_GT on April 21, 2016, 06:23:42 PM
So what is the fix for this my engine light just came on I suspect it might be pulling timing now.
Why woukd you suspect that?
Engine light came on. Had it scanned its code P0016 cam/crankshaft position sensor. My guess is timing chain stretch ??! The car normally runs strong even at 95k miles but occasionally it feels a little down on power and I had heard other EB were pulling timing due to the chain stretch.
If you like to read found page 143 & 144 interesting. Z http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf)
Quote from: 68_GT on April 21, 2016, 09:58:31 PM
Engine light came on. Had it scanned its code P0016 cam/crankshaft position sensor. My guess is timing chain stretch ??! The car normally runs strong even at 95k miles but occasionally it feels a little down on power and I had heard other EB were pulling timing due to the chain stretch.
For the F150s (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,496.msg84215.html#msg84215), but should be applicable to the SHO.
I just want to know if I can buy the parts and fix it myself or have another shop fix it. I believe I read somewhere the dealership charges $2700 for this repair.
Engine light went off and my SHO seems to run great. Do these timing chains ever break causing a catastrophic engine failure?
I just switched to Aimsoil and replaced the store brand filter to a motor craft one and most of my start up rattle has gone away :WOOT:
Quote from: salsathe4th on April 23, 2016, 10:34:40 AM
I just switched to Aimsoil and replaced the store brand filter to a motor craft one and most of my start up rattle has gone away :WOOT:
Thats certainly some great news to hear,so you went with the 5w-20 oil and M.C Filter correct? What did you always use prior? Z :)
Yes 5w-20. I just got the car at the end of summer last year so the only other oil change I had was from a place that put in federated oil and a federated auto filter. My belt has always been loud when starting the car.
Over time, the Amsoil should also help clean up things inside the engine somewhat; the hope is it will nearly eliminate the rattle.
Are you thinking it will eliminate the rattle by cleaning oiling holes in the chain tensioner ?
Quote from: 68_GT on April 24, 2016, 08:08:15 PM
Are you thinking it will eliminate the rattle by cleaning oiling holes in the chain tensioner ?
Any and all oil passages, including those, correct. Though I should make it clear that the Amsoil Signature is truly their best offering.
where do you purchase Amsoil oil ?
Direct
Http://Www.amsoil.com (Http://www.amsoil.com)
Sign up for the 6 month nembership, wait for the materials to arrive, then go online and buy. You can also look up distributors close to you on their website, if you want to skip all that. Probably no discounts that way tho.
Quote from: 68_GT on April 28, 2016, 05:36:57 PM
where do you purchase Amsoil oil ?
And lets not forget our fellow member Rich who is a dealer.....
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5183.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5183.0.html)
The url changed for his site I think
http://motorcitysynthetics.myamsoil.com (http://motorcitysynthetics.myamsoil.com)
Was getting a dns error before.
nice thanks.
are we talking about OE, XL, or signature series 5w-30 ?
I guess for a Few bucks more you get the [Cream of the Crop] Signature Series. Z :ok:
understandable as long as that's the oil that might help clear my oil passages to eliminate / reduce my timing chain rattle on start up and my engine light coming on and off due to cam phasers and reduced timing / performance.
Quote from: 68_GT on April 28, 2016, 10:28:40 PM
understandable as long as that's the oil that might help clear my oil passages to eliminate / reduce my timing chain rattle on start up and my engine light coming on and off due to cam phasers and reduced timing / performance.
If you just changed your oil recently wait roughly 500 miles and change your oil again over to the Signature series,its almost like a
Motor flush which IMHO should be performed at least twice a year especially if your having issues and should hopefully help out cleaning the passage/phasers in the long run. Z
With 36k on the clock I have the obvious rattle on startups and yesterday I changed from Mobil One EP5w20 and EP filter over to Motorcraft FL500s filter and Amsoil Signature 5w20 oil. I could tell immediately there was a noise drop on startup right after change.
This morning when starting car it was quiet. I'm hoping this a solution as it seems to be working so far.
Yea... Love Amsoil (for my '13 use Signature 5w30)... And FMC filter... So far all is good at 29k miles.
Quote from: TX MKS-T on May 08, 2016, 11:05:47 AM
With 36k on the clock I have the obvious rattle on startups and yesterday I changed from Mobil One EP5w20 and EP filter over to Motorcraft FL500s filter and Amsoil Signature 5w20 oil. I could tell immediately there was a noise drop on startup right after change.
This morning when starting car it was quiet. I'm hoping this a solution as it seems to be working so far.
Perfect combo,especially the MC Filter. Z
I think the motorcraft filter is garbage...ford sent that out to the cheapest bidder
Amsoil was concerned with statistical performance of their filters....i would prefer all things oil related to be amsoil
Not many comparisons that include Amsoil oil filters out there, AJP, their official flow characteristics seem a little "muted" compared to competitors in the market. I don't think MC filters are garbage at all, but can you get better, or ones that can filter for longer, sure! As to the cheapest bidder, I wouldn't be surprised :) but the filters are quite heavy for their size.
Ford Racing filter specs attached, and look pretty good.
I've read repeatedly that its the same as a normal motorcraft with a stouter case and that they are all rebadged Purolator Pure Ones.
Since I have startup noise I'm going to swap out my filter and see if it changes.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/CM-6731-FL820
Now my engine light pretty much stays on. I need to get my car registered but have to get it inspected first 👎🏼
What codes is the pcm showing now? P0016 or ...?
Actually I have three according to my tuner device. Strange the engine light goes off and on....
P0016
P0299
C1001
P0016 - generic camshaft position correlation sensor bank A
P0299 - turbocharger low boost
C1001 - unknown, maybe related to the backup camera if you have one.
any idea for fixes ???
Do those codes come on when stock? I'd get that thing to the dealer!
Quote from: 68_GT on May 30, 2016, 09:41:43 PM
any idea for fixes ???
Not for the "C" code, but does your camera work? This is s general electrical failure code ... The P0299 could be s turbo... More likely a turbo leak though.. So check all the plastic charge pipes and hoses/connections to it ...and look hard as turbo leaks are hard to find. The camshaft sensor likely speaks for itself... But has catastrophic implications.
Funny thing, seeing this thread today about the startup rattle.
Since I got my 2015 SHO with 18k on the clock, it has had about a 1/2 second rattle sound on startup. Worse when cold, though it will do it at least a little anytime the car sits for more than a few minutes. But, again, we are talking 1/2 second worth, nothing more.
I always assumed it was "normal" sounds from the engine until oil pressure built. Kind of like a dry engine for a split second that then fixes itself through lubrication. I have heard other cars (all different makes and models) do this too, especially when cold.
But yesterday, I test drove a 2011 SHO with 39k on it (to possibly buy for the wife). That thing was quiet as a church mouse on startup. Even sounded much less "diesel" like when idling than my car does - both warm and cold. Kind of annoyed me :). The wife ended up getting the 4 cylinder Ecoboost Fusion, and that thing is quiet, too.
In the end, I suspect some Ecoboosts will do this a little, some a bunch, some not at all. Probably a "tolerance stack" issue that adds up to create this symptom for X percentage.
Quote from: BiGMaC on May 30, 2016, 11:00:48 PM
Quote from: 68_GT on May 30, 2016, 09:41:43 PM
any idea for fixes ???
The camshaft sensor likely speaks for itself... But has catastrophic implications.
please elaborate !!
yeah my backup camera seems to have a glitch every once in awhile it doesn't come on...
I took my MKS with 65k in for startup noise and after they mentioned timing chain related components, I found these TSB's. They are going to have my car all week doing this and some other maintenance things. I'm guessing the whole engine is coming out to get at the chain as the front cover probably won't fit out by the shock tower. Glad I'm under warranty until 12/18 or 125k.
They don't have to remove the engine exactly, but they do have to remove the motor mount and hoist the engine to get at the front cover. So yeah ... Warranty GOOD!
I have heard the rattle once on mine and will be paying close attention. I know the rattle well since I owned a CV with a 4.6 that also had the problem. Pretty sad that Ford has had this issue with other motors since the '90's and is still releasing motors with timing chain related issues.
I went back to amsoil with a motorcraft filter and the rattle is still there.
How much time/mileage has elapsed since going back to the Amsoil/MC? Wonder if they are machining the oil passages too small, wouldn't surprise me.
Here is a video I took of mine the day I took it to the dealer. Sounds like the same noise as the F150's, just not as extreme.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randalsmith/shares/5rv43i (https://www.flickr.com/photos/randalsmith/shares/5rv43i)
Probably would sound worse with the hood open/cover off?
Quote from: SHOdded on June 07, 2016, 07:45:41 AM
Probably would sound worse with the hood open/cover off?
I'm sure it was. That was what I heard every morning and all my passengers would hear and say "what's wrong with your car?" Now that I understand a bit more what is going on, I can see it being the chain slapping around a bit.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 06, 2016, 06:43:54 PM
How much time/mileage has elapsed since going back to the Amsoil/MC? Wonder if they are machining the oil passages too small, wouldn't surprise me.
Less than a week and 100 miles.
Quote from: Woody on June 07, 2016, 07:34:53 AM
Here is a video I took of mine the day I took it to the dealer. Sounds like the same noise as the F150's, just not as extreme.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/randalsmith/shares/5rv43i (https://www.flickr.com/photos/randalsmith/shares/5rv43i)
Hmm, mine has a much more "metallic" sound to it.
my engine light went off so I tried to get it inspected and find out I have 4-5 not ready's. The car seems to run fine I don't get it in fact my chain rattle seems much quieter after my last oil change and I just turned 100K miles.....
Quote from: 68_GT on June 07, 2016, 12:53:36 PM
my engine light went off so I tried to get it inspected and find out I have 4-5 not ready's. The car seems to run fine I don't get it in fact my chain rattle seems much quieter after my last oil change and I just turned 100K miles.....
You need to drive the car and also let it cool down and heat up too
Anyone try BG products and had success getting rid of the start up rattle? Im using Amsoil and the rattle is pretty bad.
And by the way mine sounds exactly like the posted video. What year is your Lincoln? Hopefully mine is under the same warranty.
Some people think its oil related...i dont....its just the inherent design of the late ford engines going back at least to the triton series
In so many cases i'v seen the oil dipstick loose and oil erupting like a volcano and all over the front valve cover which many members have lost a couple or more quarts of oil and not realizing it due to worn out gaskets on the dipstick right under the handle and two small rubber gaskets are needed for a tight secure fit. Z
Mine is about the same duration, but far, far less pronounced than in that video. Frankly, I am really unsure if it is the same thing or not, but interested in Woody's results with the dealer fix.
EDIT: Mine sounds more like the car in these videos:
https://vimeo.com/128813229 (https://vimeo.com/128813229)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT_77mKfbMM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT_77mKfbMM)
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 07, 2016, 06:31:03 PM
Some people think its oil related...i dont....its just the inherent design of the late ford engines going back at least to the triton series
I think oil can affect it... Like quieting valves with the old STP.... But I agree it's a design flaw ultimately.... I do wonder if the increased amount of hard acceleration the 3.5 EB is subjected to (and I'm guilty) contribute to the rattle by taxing the spring on the chain tension era or stretching the chain... I don't seem to have the noise from either of the last two vids or any startup rattle.... I'll hate it if it develops.
I suppose you could find a full synthetic oil with boron in it (since the boron clings to metallic surfaces) to help reduce the chances of a startup rattle also. I don't think the lubrication system is active before you crank the engine.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 08, 2016, 01:31:53 AM
I suppose you could find a full synthetic oil with boron in it (since the boron clings to metallic surfaces) to help reduce the chances of a startup rattle also. I don't think the lubrication system is active before you crank the engine.
I did notice if you let the engine crank a few seconds before starting the rattle is not present.
Quote from: glock-coma on June 08, 2016, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on June 08, 2016, 01:31:53 AM
I suppose you could find a full synthetic oil with boron in it (since the boron clings to metallic surfaces) to help reduce the chances of a startup rattle also. I don't think the lubrication system is active before you crank the engine.
I did notice if you let the engine crank a few seconds before starting the rattle is not present.
How do you do that... I push the start button and the car takes over... What's your trick?
Keep the gas pedal pressed to the floor when starting. Probably still cuts off the injectors ...
Yes. Floor the gas and push the start button with foot on the brake.
It will keep cranking until you release the gas pedal.
Made the Amsoil/Ford filter change at begining of May and all is still quiet every morning when starting.
Quote from: TX MKS-T on June 09, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Made the Amsoil/Ford filter change at begining of May and all is still quiet every morning when starting.
Are you sure you were experiencing the same thing presented in any of the three videos from prior posts in this thread?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: salsathe4th on June 07, 2016, 06:13:15 PM
Anyone try BG products and had success getting rid of the start up rattle? Im using Amsoil and the rattle is pretty bad.
And by the way mine sounds exactly like the posted video. What year is your Lincoln? Hopefully mine is under the same warranty.
My MKS is a 2012 with 65k. It already had the 6/100 certified used warranty and I bumped it up to 7/125. I see people saying it should be covered under emissions warranty though.
They are killing me. They told me they are waiting on the chain and will have my car another weekend (it will be 2 weeks Tuesday) In the next breath he says "The H&R lowering springs made it look really great." Yeah, thanks for telling me after telling me I won't see it for another 4+ days.
Quote from: Woody on June 10, 2016, 01:22:42 PM
Quote from: salsathe4th on June 07, 2016, 06:13:15 PM
Anyone try BG products and had success getting rid of the start up rattle? Im using Amsoil and the rattle is pretty bad.
And by the way mine sounds exactly like the posted video. What year is your Lincoln? Hopefully mine is under the same warranty.
My MKS is a 2012 with 65k. It already had the 6/100 certified used warranty and I bumped it up to 7/125. I see people saying it should be covered under emissions warranty though.
They are killing me. They told me they are waiting on the chain and will have my car another weekend (it will be 2 weeks Tuesday) In the next breath he says "The H&R lowering springs made it look really great." Yeah, thanks for telling me after telling me I won't see it for another 4+ days.
Sorry :(
Seems that Ford is doing worse than usual for parts. My car has been down for 12 days waiting on the HPFP gasket in order to fix a monumental leak in the valve covers. My wife, who works at the dealer, had Lincoln get involved and somehow they were able to get a gasket in a couple of days instead of the 6/22 date Ford provided.
How they can be out of a simple gasket that has been used since 2010 on every transverse 3.5EB is beyond me.
Are you in a dealer provided rental? That usually spurs them to action much quicker.
So I am out of town for the summer, and my rental ended up being a 2016 Taurus SEL V6.
I realize it is not the EB but, like the 2011 SHO I test drove, it is quiet on startup, and is much quieter and smoother sounding during idle than my 15 SHO.
I really believe this is a loose timing chain issue. For mine, the startup noise also translates to a much more CHK CHK CHK sound at idle than those without the issue I have driven. That sound isn't offensive necessarily, but is coming from the same area of the engine as the startup noise. At idle, I would describe it as a very muted version of the noise in the videos in this thread - so I believe it to have the same root cause.
The mystery to me is whether Ford will end up calling this a "normal operating characteristic," given is has no affect on performance. So Woody's results interest me. When I get back in the fall, I might make an appointment with my dealer and give it a shot .... depending on what transpires here in the meantime.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think what your hearing in the sho is the direct injection fuel pump on top of the front valve cover. It has a very distinctive tick sound.
The non ecoboost is a sequential multi port.
Except that the 2011 SHO I drove didn't have the noise to which I refer. Or maybe I am hearing the DI, and it is just louder on my car than the one I test drove.
Who knows. I know it is hard to diagnose noises on the internet. But, if I was a bettin' man, I'd put $ that the start-up noise, if fixed, would quiet down my normal idle as well.
Very likely the rental is well-maintained and/or has the OEM oil/filter in it. The 3.5 is pretty quiet in the cabin, not so much once you open the hood and take the cover off :)
Quote from: sholxgt on June 10, 2016, 01:32:50 PMSorry :(
Seems that Ford is doing worse than usual for parts. My car has been down for 12 days waiting on the HPFP gasket in order to fix a monumental leak in the valve covers. My wife, who works at the dealer, had Lincoln get involved and somehow they were able to get a gasket in a couple of days instead of the 6/22 date Ford provided.
How they can be out of a simple gasket that has been used since 2010 on every transverse 3.5EB is beyond me.
Are you in a dealer provided rental? That usually spurs them to action much quicker.
Yeah. My dealer is good about the loaners. I have extended warranty. I am in a 2016 MKX AWD. Not an ecoboost, but I really enjoy this vehicle. Doesn't seem to be spurring them on at all. My car will be gone 2 weeks on Tuesday. But I am having a lot of other work done and the bill is pretty high. It's going to be like a new car. :) Plugs, new chain, H&R's, full detailing, front brakes, coolant and rear diff fluids. Tempted to do a tune with all this stuff touched up. :)
Quote from: John Miller on June 09, 2016, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: TX MKS-T on June 09, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Made the Amsoil/Ford filter change at begining of May and all is still quiet every morning when starting.
Are you sure you were experiencing the same thing presented in any of the three videos from prior posts in this thread?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I had the split second ticking on startup, no CEL but definately ticking that went away quickly. I know this thread has both examples and the suggested oil/filter combo helped my issue as indicated in earlier pages.
I find when it is warm/hot outside it'll rattle REALLY loud but when its cool/cold it barely rattles at start up. Can someone explain why that is?
Is this observation based on fresh oil, midlife oil, or endoflife oil? Could be viscosity changes, could be parts expansion (ie, timing chain tensioner) in hotter weather, OTTOMH ...
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/115 (http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/115)
Quote from: SHOdded on June 14, 2016, 11:39:34 PM
Is this observation based on fresh oil, midlife oil, or endoflife oil? Could be viscosity changes, could be parts expansion (ie, timing chain tensioner) in hotter weather, OTTOMH ...
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/115 (http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/115)
I got about 1000 miles so far with my motorcraft filter and aimsoil.
How does the rattle respond to RPM, and how long does it last? The belt tensioner might be worth looking into also.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 15, 2016, 06:30:53 AM
How does the rattle respond to RPM, and how long does it last? The belt tensioner might be worth looking into also.
I thought the rattle sound we were hearing was the tensioner ratcheting out when the oil pressure increases.
Not the actual chain slapping around.
It's probably a combo of both.
IDK, trying to ascertain whether this sound when warm/hot is related to oil at all or not.
The clicking you hear is from the cam phasers. These don't seem to last very long. F150 folks are feeling the brunt of this right now.
Man those f150's are junk...id get rid of them
Quote from: SHOdded on June 15, 2016, 06:30:53 AM
How does the rattle respond to RPM, and how long does it last? The belt tensioner might be worth looking into also.
The belt tensioner is near brand new. Its definitely a metal on metal rattle. Ill try to get a video of it tomorrow morning before work.
Here is what mine sounds like
https://sendvid.com/kng4m4q3
Yep, that's pretty close to mine. Seems extra common, which is extra special.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: salsathe4th on June 16, 2016, 10:03:38 PM
Here is what mine sounds like
https://sendvid.com/kng4m4q3
Yes - time for the chains AND cam phasers. The TSB is actually replacing both items for this problem. A new cam phaser design was implemented mid-2015, so need to watch which parts are used.
Are the parts for the SHO/MKS and F150 interchangeable? Which TSB are you referring to, 93Cobra?
EDIT: This one?
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3836.msg98709.html#msg98709 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3836.msg98709.html#msg98709)
I also want to know what TSB. I thought there was a TSB for the F150s, but nothing for the SHO/MKS and that those SHOs getting the fix were "one offs."
There is no TSB for my vin/year.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 17, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Are the parts for the SHO/MKS and F150 interchangeable? Which TSB are you referring to, 93Cobra?
EDIT: This one?
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3836.msg98709.html#msg98709 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3836.msg98709.html#msg98709)
Actually, TSB 16-0027 supercedes it. This is what will take affect when you bring a cold start rattler ecoboost.
Do you have the PDF handy? Heres a howto from the f150 forum
http://www.f150forum.com/f70/tsb-16-0027-timing-chain-repair-337323/ (http://www.f150forum.com/f70/tsb-16-0027-timing-chain-repair-337323/)
Got it!
http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f118/418161d1456767151-2015-ford-f-150-tsb-listing-tsb16-0027.pdf (http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f118/418161d1456767151-2015-ford-f-150-tsb-listing-tsb16-0027.pdf)
Only change is to update labor time standards. 9 hrs or so.
That TSB is for the F150. The dealer may or may not take it seriously if you print it out and tell them to apply it to your SHO. What am I missing?
Quote from: John Miller on June 17, 2016, 10:17:58 PM
That TSB is for the F150. The dealer may or may not take it seriously if you print it out and tell them to apply it to your SHO. What am I missing?
You are not missing anything and they will likely not take you seriously.
Is that list of parts the same for a Flex 3.5? Have to go at it myself I guess
Quote from: sholxgt on June 17, 2016, 10:19:34 PM
Quote from: John Miller on June 17, 2016, 10:17:58 PM
That TSB is for the F150. The dealer may or may not take it seriously if you print it out and tell them to apply it to your SHO. What am I missing?
You are not missing anything and they will likely not take you seriously.
Mine goes in in the morning for a diagnosis.
MrsFoMoCoSHO is aware of the F-150 TSB and after listening to vids I can't tell if it is the same noise or not.
The car has had the VCT solenoid and the pigtail replaced already.
I will report back with their findings.
Guess I gotta go detune.
The parts do not cross over AFAIK, at best you can see if the revision numbers have been updated. But it's possible the part numbers are diff for F150 vs SHO/Flex/X/MKS while the actual part is the same.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 22, 2016, 11:10:12 PM
The parts do not cross over AFAIK, at best you can see if the revision numbers have been updated. But it's possible the part numbers are diff for F150 vs SHO/Flex/X/MKS while the actual part is the same.
At least it gives me a list of parts needed, plus the water pump. Only at 54k but may as well while I'm in there
Pics & posts aplenty :D
just had mine fixed
$3,105.02.
Went in for code P0016 because I couldn't pass inspection.
parts list:
intake manifold gasket
timing chain
timing chain
engine variable timing solenoid
camshaft position sensor X 2
flanged hex bolt
timing chain tensioner arm
guide
valve rocker arm cover x 2
crankshaft oil seal asy
silicone sealant
oil filter
oil
timing chain
bolt
antifreeze
I know I have repeat parts in there but they show different part numbers I can post them all later.
car runs like new no more rattle at start up, no more rattle while driving. I'm at 103K miles. about 95 tuned on Livernois Stage 3 tune.
I'm debating putting the stage 3 tune / 3 bar back in. My car ran ok with the stage 3 tune before this repair but when I flashed it back to stock to take it to the dealer it seemed to run a lot better and more powerful ???
maybe the car wasn't responding to the tune properly because of the engine codes and mechanical issues ??
Ouch! Glad to hear it's back to running good again.
Boggles my mind that Ford continues to have timing chain tensioner issues. I would have thought that after they replaced thousands and thousands of timing chain assemblies under warranty on the 4.6 v8's that they would have come up with a better design.
I hope you had an ESP to cover most of the bill....total of 103k on the clock with 95k of Texas Tuned heat contributing to extra stress and wear and certainly questionable IDK considering the TSB but hopefully she is running to her fullest potential once again and make sure to stay on TOP of the maintenance aspect,plugs,oils,fresh fluids changed at frequent intervals and NOT what Ford recommends and best of luck to ya. Z
What, no coolant pump??? LOL! Yeah, front end work on these engines is EXPENSIVE! At least you will actually have a warranty on the work. When work is done under warranty, there is no actual warranty, it is only good until the warranty expires. So imagine being at the tail end of the warranty when the work is done and having to go back in when out of warranty. Not fun!
Did they give you any discount on parts and/or labor? Glad to hear the SHO's back in tiptop condition though, the way it should be :thumb:
I would give it at least 1 full fuel tank's worth of miles to "break in" and sort out potential issues with the work before putting a tune back on. Make sure the rattle does not return :)
I begged for a deal on it with the guy since I got laid off from my criminal justice career job last October, and have been trying to make it work in a commission only sales gig for a security alarm company (but doing well). Initiallyhe said the repair was $3,700 then the final bill was $3,100 saying they saved 2 hours labor ??? No warranty, no discussion of the tune, service guy says the timing chain stretch is from hot rodding the car, but he also could explain how many cams and cam phasers my engine had either.....
should they have replaced my cam pahsers, or coolant pump while they were in there ?!??!?!?
this was Ford Gullo in Conroe TX.
they destroyed my Optima Red Top battery and tried to tell me it was bad and I had to replace it. When I went to pick it up the terminal was pulled out of it ! they claim the battery leaked and made that happen lol... Thankfully Advance Austo warrantied it, although I'm not sure why but glad. And they scratched / gauged my front bumper so I complained after seeing it and got into it with them so now they're going to repaint it.
always something.... runs great feels powerful and smooth for stock and only my spark plugs which are probably ready to be replaced and a K&N air filter drop in.
The phasers are probably ok not to do, but still since they were right there ... The solenoid were replaced, and that I would DEFINITELY have had done, because there's no way to tell how badly clogged the internal screens are without a teardown. I mentioned the coolant pump since it's right there after all that work, doesn't cost much, and you already have 100K on your engine. Would have been nice to have that done at the same time, for sure. Only heard maybe 1 or 2 cases of failure on an EB engine, so with any luck, it will continue to be a workhorse :)
Wonder if they used an engine hoist of some kind. I mean, how exactly do you pull a terminal out of a battery??? They couldn't disconnect the cable, so they used the jaws of life on it maybe? Ridiculous.
Repaint? Have fun, hope it matches! Maybe they should pay to have it done properly at a shop of your choice.
they do have a top notch body shop so I'm not worried about the paint work. I guess they screwed up the terminal trying to get the cable off to make the repair. I had it on pretty tight so I guess it bit into the terminal, of course no one else takes care of our cars like we do. I would have spent all day trying to remove the cable before screwing up my battery. Yeah he used a little pulley puller jaws of like this to push the terminal out of the cable connector. Dumb.
So i still have this Flex and drive it everyday, it now has 125,000 miles on it and i have been dealing with the startup noise for 120,000 miles and endless trips to the dealer and they couldn't figure it out. I bet they just believe it was a stretched timing chain. Well last weekend i finally took the valve cover off on the front to confirm if i had the old chain set up or the newer one. Luckily i have the newer chain and its never came in contact with anything, not a mark on it. So i was boggled and just changed the VVT solenoid out of pure curiosity and low and behold the start up rattle went away for the first time in many many years. its very frustrating to say the least. I have had to deal with this super loud rattle for 120,000 miles and all the dealer had to do is diagnose the car correctly and fix it, but that never happened.
That is good news. How permanent it is remains to be seen, but fingers crossed! :)
Quote from: SHOdded on October 08, 2019, 07:09:48 PM
That is good news. How permanent it is remains to be seen, but fingers crossed! :)
Well probably shouldn't have spoke so soon, it's only been 3 days. I just left work and it did make a slight rattle on cold start up. The crazy thing is that it has to be something to do with the right side VVT solenoid because all I did was change it and the rattle went away for days. Now that I think about it when I took my car under warranty many many times to the dealer for this rattle when I picked it up most times the rattle was gone for a few days after, I use to think because it wasn't being driven for a few days but now maybe it's because they reflash the computer and reset the solenoid. Please if anyone can offer anything on this please help
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