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problem with methanol pump

Started by Grimster, August 10, 2013, 11:51:57 AM

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Grimster

Got everything installed and was testing out the pump.  Looks like the supply side is fine, but the delivery side is leaking horribly.  Will make a better seal if I apply gentle pressure at an angle (kind of like wedging it into place) but isn't much good to me at the moment.  Any ideas where I should start troubleshooting?  Can I fix it somehow or should I contact torrie for a replacement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksSxlh9KFs0&feature=youtube_gdata_playe
2010 MKS Ecoboost
Airaid intake, Water/Methanol Kit, 3-bar sensor, Tuned by Unleashed Tuning

arttyszka

I'm no methanol veteran, but I wouldn't take the chance of a flammable liquid spraying inside the engine compartment if your "fix" lets go, get a new pump.
2014 Explorer Sport
Lund Tuned | 170 t-stat | K&N Panel | H&R Springs | Coolbulbs.com HID's

EcoBrick Bob

Aren't the fittings quick connect?  If so, make sure the plastic hose is cut straight and has no burrs on the outside edge.  Then make sure it is pushed in as far as it can go.  Also make sure there are no severe bends, especially near the pump and near the spray nozzle. The kit should have a surplus of the plastic black hose. I suppose it is possible that a fitting is defective, but unlikely.  Unless the leak is on the pump side of the fitting, you don't need a new pump. If so the pump housing would have to be cracked.

I was the crash test dummy for this system from Torrie, and I hooked up and unhooked the hoses from pump dozens of times. I would use a separate section of hose to pump out my regular windshield solution, and then fill with my own methanol blend or "Boost Juice", for consistency when either testing tunes or dragging. Never ever had a leak.

If you are using windshield washer solution or "Boost Juice" that is 49% or less methanol, it will not burn.  Anything over 50% is considered Flammable.
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

Grimster

Ya I'll mess with it again this afternoon.  Hopefully it is as simple as cutting the tubing as straight as possible.  I'll update this thread again this evening with what I find out :)
2010 MKS Ecoboost
Airaid intake, Water/Methanol Kit, 3-bar sensor, Tuned by Unleashed Tuning

PopolZ

I also had a bit of a struggle to get it in there and seal properly but nothing a bit of elbow grease can't fix.
2010 Ford Taurus SHO, non-PP, Steel Blue #243 of 301 - Custom tune by Torrie@Unleashed, PPE non-catted downpipes, custom 3rd cat & resonator delete, water/meth injection, HKS SSQV3 BOV and Carbotech AX6 brake pads.

1991 Nissan Skyline GTR, Pearl Black Metallic - a few goodies

StrawHatShinobi

Mine leaked as well when I first got it installed and I was using just about a 100% meth mix so I made sure to get that fixed right away. Pulled the hose, recut and shoved it back in, no leaks after that.
'13 Eco screw FX4 - THE56 turbos, AEM Dry flow, MAK DP, 4" exhaust, meth injection, Walbro 450 lift pump, 2"HBS level, 20" Fuel Nuts on 33" Toyo M/T's

Timtoolman

#6
I replaced my fittings , when I put a 7 Gal tank in my bed, I couldn't stop the leaks
2012 XLT 3.5 TT  Screw ,SoCal tuned ,meth injected
Member SoCal Nation
HTCS AW/SW USN RET.

Grimster

Ok, I was able to stop the leaking.  I pulled the tubing out....recut it and straight as I could (it was pretty straight before)...and then reinstalled the tubing "firmly".  It now no longer leaks.

But now there is a new "thing" happening.  Instead of the pump being "on" when activated....it is doing this pulsation thing where it very quickly goes on / off / on / off / on / off.  I have adjusted the screw on the pump that adjusts the pressure a full 3 turns clockwise.  That should have me sitting right at 120 psi.  Now it does the same thing except the pulses are quicker. 

Is this normal?  When I tested the unit before (when I had the leaking) it was a constant on type operation.  Now that it is fully pressurized and no longer leaking it is doing the pulsation thing. 

Do I need a larger orifice on the nozzle?  For example going from the #7 (came with the kit) to a #10?  I am going to be installing a check valve and in-line filter....will this have any effect?

2010 MKS Ecoboost
Airaid intake, Water/Methanol Kit, 3-bar sensor, Tuned by Unleashed Tuning

Timtoolman

#8
I 'd contact where you bought your meth kit about changing preassure and nozzle sizes , you don't want to quench the motor.  I run 2 nozzles and run about 250 psi  with my system.
2012 XLT 3.5 TT  Screw ,SoCal tuned ,meth injected
Member SoCal Nation
HTCS AW/SW USN RET.

EcoBrick Bob

I also installed the filter with no issues.  I increased the nozzle from #7 to # 10.  This required a different tune from Torrie, as does any change in % of methanol. 

I have never gotten any pulsing.  When does this occur? 
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

Grimster

#10
It happened whenever I would test the system using the button on the side of the black box where the boost line connects (I did not take any video last night before I put the car back together).  I have also tested the system out by actually driving the car and getting into boost a little and it seems to be working ok (less methanol in the tank after the test run, haha).  From the driver seat I can't tell if the system is pulsating or not....I would assume that it is. 

I'll try to get some video of this in the next day or so.  My check valve and in-line filter will be here tomorrow, so when I install those it will be a good time to take some video.

My guess is that this is how this pump is designed to run.  It's probably just a cheap pump.  If that's how it is supposed to run then that's fine...I just wanted to make sure before I just assumed it was.


EcoBrick Bob - how much boost were you seeing after you installed the methanol kit?  Quick test using that Torque app last night after I got everything together....I want to say that I hit 16 psi.  This was with Torrie's 3-bar WM kit tune.  I haven't logged anything using the SCT handheld and laptop yet....was planning on doing that after I got the check valve and filter in place so that the logs and retune by Torrie were with exactly what I would normally have installed. 

2010 MKS Ecoboost
Airaid intake, Water/Methanol Kit, 3-bar sensor, Tuned by Unleashed Tuning

Timtoolman

I do data logging with meth turned off then a run with it on and watch afr's to see it working
2012 XLT 3.5 TT  Screw ,SoCal tuned ,meth injected
Member SoCal Nation
HTCS AW/SW USN RET.

EcoBrick Bob

These pumps are made by Shurflo.  Almost everyone in the W/M business uses that brand of pump.  Some companies like Alkyl Control claim to take them apart and also test them. 

As for surging, if you hear it pulsing some that is fine.  To me surging is when it would not provide consistent flow.  If you have engine on and push button, the engine should react by  RPM's dropping.  I also created a light that comes on when pump is running.  That tells me there is power to the pump, created when boost hits around 8 PSI.

Torrie and I were constantly changing the tunes to improve my ET's. I also was running a 3 bar sensor in the intake manifold.  Thus I saw boost pressures as high as 20 psi, for short periods of time, usually at the high end of 2nd gear.  I would have to look back thru saved logs, but as I remember, once at boost in a wot run at the strip, that I would see boost always above 14-15 psi.  Due to small turbos, it was a bit peaky.  The big thing you need to watch when logging is that your Lambda numbers don't go too high.  I liked to see them at or below .82 for both banks.  Also Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) is extremely important.  I like to keep it above 1,200 psi,.  However, when spraying 70% or higher methanol concentrations, the methanol burns and acts as additional fuel, besides cooling the charge, so  the real key then is the steady Lambda readings.  Any Lambda spike means a lean condition, which is a No...No... when running high boost. 

Also, from what I understand, the boost number alone doesn't mean you are maximizing your engine's potential.  I'm sure others have lots to say on this so please chime in.
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.

Timtoolman

#13
I see 20-21 lbs of boost before using meth, not spikes either
2012 XLT 3.5 TT  Screw ,SoCal tuned ,meth injected
Member SoCal Nation
HTCS AW/SW USN RET.

EcoBrick Bob

Pickup EB Engine has different turbos from what I understand, as well as variable valve timing on the exhaust.
2010 Red Candy/White EB Flex.. World's first 12 second Brick.. 12.904 @ 106.85 MPH - October 2011
2009 Spt. Red G8 GT - modded. best time 12.074 & 114.02 MPH
2008 White G8 GT - mods... 8.32 1/8 mi.

Naples, FL & Clear Lake, IA
Bob has decided not to post here any more, please do not PM him he will not receive it.