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Double pump/line/nozzle thought.

Started by SilvererSHO, June 03, 2017, 09:08:36 PM

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SilvererSHO

If you had a set-up with two small nozzles with a separate line and pump for each if one went down would the other save the engine from damage when running a meth tune?  Would one line temporarily give the engine enough meth?  In other words, how much more meth is usually being injected for making power, if any, than needed just to prevent detonation? 
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

AJP turbo

What type of controller would you use? And how would the controller know that the first pump failed?
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SilvererSHO

I dunno?  But at least this way if you just had a simple warning light on each line the meth system would be safe temporarily with one pump/line/nozzle not working.
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

SHOdded

A dead man switch?  I think really you should get a good controller in the first place.  The PCM (per FoMoCoSHO) will shut down and save the engine in case of a no-spray condition.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SilvererSHO

Maybe I'm not familiar enough with how some of the controllers handle and detect a no spray condition.
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

StealBlueSho

AEM makes a failsafe device....

I am a novice meth guy but... having two pumps isn't going to be worth the effort, install, and price... it will need to be primed and ready ALL the time in the event it's needed...

I cannot speak for the other kits, but the Alky Control kit can spray more meth than you need unless you are highly modified like BPD... even then I suspect he running two nozzles for a smoother delivery and not because he needs more meth....

I haven't seen anyone running two pumps and I have done quite a bit of googling and talking to the place I get methanol from...

SilvererSHO

Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 04, 2017, 06:41:57 AM
AEM makes a failsafe device....

I am a novice meth guy but... having two pumps isn't going to be worth the effort, install, and price... it will need to be primed and ready ALL the time in the event it's needed...

I cannot speak for the other kits, but the Alky Control kit can spray more meth than you need unless you are highly modified like BPD... even then I suspect he running two nozzles for a smoother delivery and not because he needs more meth....

I haven't seen anyone running two pumps and I have done quite a bit of googling and talking to the place I get methanol from...

Quoteit will need to be primed and ready ALL the time in the event it's needed

It would be.  Two pumps, two nozzles and two lines supplying the meth injection.  If one went down a warning light would go off and you'd still have the one pump, nozzle, line supplying half the normal amount instead of nothing like you'd have in a failure of a single pump, nozzle, line system.  That's my question to the meth guys.  Would that be enough to protect your engine?

All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

StealBlueSho

The answer is not a simple one.. or maybe it is? If your tuned and maxed out for the amount of meth being injected with two pumps, your car is reliant on that flow of meth... if one pump fails, most likely you will experience an adverse reaction to the lack of supplied fuel...

If you are running a conservative tune, that doesn't require the knock suppression that two pumps are providing via meth, then one failure will not cause a problem... since your not maxed out...

Make sense?

It's the same principle as one pump... if you are tuned to rely on the meth for fuel and knock suppression and it the pump dies, you are relying on the ECU to pull spark fast enough to preserve the engine. The same could be said if you are running two pumps...

TopherSho

#8
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 05, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
The answer is not a simple one.. or maybe it is? If your tuned and maxed out for the amount of meth being injected with two pumps, your car is reliant on that flow of meth... if one pump fails, most likely you will experience an adverse reaction to the lack of supplied fuel...

If you are running a conservative tune, that doesn't require the knock suppression that two pumps are providing via meth, then one failure will not cause a problem... since your not maxed out...

Make sense?

It's the same principle as one pump... if you are tuned to rely on the meth for fuel and knock suppression and it the pump dies, you are relying on the ECU to pull spark fast enough to preserve the engine. The same could be said if you are running two pumps...

^ this.

If your car is mapped to run 28+ spark, and is hard mapped for that high of octane source al the time and suddenly you are feeding it only 92-pump gas it will knock HARD.  How hard? I do not know.  but i imagine *if* you did not see the puffs of brown smoke or feel/hear the knock and kept on it there would be very severe stress, and likely damage.

Running a hard core meth tune is a choice and a risk.  Those that are understand the risks and drive it anyways.   

Now, in theory running two full setups is 'interesting'.. with a line pressure switch of some sort in each meth line might be able to build a fail-over.  IE if WOT but line-1 has no pressure == circuit two opens and tries to pump meth from its source.

Expensive setup.  but cheaper than a long block.

edit:  expanding thought..
pressure switch in line-1 supplies a signal to keep power from pump two under WOT conditions or trigger conditions?
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

This is why I want to run full E85 with meth. In case of failure you still have the massive octane of E85 to act as an added buffer.

lamrith

Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 05, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
The answer is not a simple one.. or maybe it is? If your tuned and maxed out for the amount of meth being injected with two pumps, your car is reliant on that flow of meth... if one pump fails, most likely you will experience an adverse reaction to the lack of supplied fuel...

If you are running a conservative tune, that doesn't require the knock suppression that two pumps are providing via meth, then one failure will not cause a problem... since your not maxed out...

Make sense?

It's the same principle as one pump... if you are tuned to rely on the meth for fuel and knock suppression and it the pump dies, you are relying on the ECU to pull spark fast enough to preserve the engine. The same could be said if you are running two pumps...
^^ yes..

Now if the OP is talking about running the 2 independent meth systems each at 1/2 flow (is that even possible?) then his theory would have some merit.  Since you only lose 1/2 your total flow and not all of it.  But that is allot of hardware and complexity to add in.
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago w/ 275/40-20 GMAX AS-05.

StealBlueSho

So you would tune for 1/2 the total flow of meth coming in...

Based on my very NOVICE that would be difficult to tune the fueling for...

Not sure how practical that would be...


TopherSho

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on June 05, 2017, 02:47:49 PM
This is why I want to run full E85 with meth. In case of failure you still have the massive octane of E85 to act as an added buffer.

I just with LMS e85 pump wasn't so damn spendy.  i'd love to go full e85 for now.
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

TopherSho

Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 05, 2017, 04:17:45 PM
So you would tune for 1/2 the total flow of meth coming in...

Based on my very NOVICE that would be difficult to tune the fueling for...

Not sure how practical that would be...

I think the intent is to to tune for the combined flow (ie 100%),  and if 1 pump failed you would be at 50% flow.  No the tune would not be happy and you'd knock like hell.. but it would be better than being tuned for 27-28+spark and go from 110+octane to 92 under say WoT.   

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

SilvererSHO

Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 05, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
The answer is not a simple one.. or maybe it is? If your tuned and maxed out for the amount of meth being injected with two pumps, your car is reliant on that flow of meth... if one pump fails, most likely you will experience an adverse reaction to the lack of supplied fuel...

If you are running a conservative tune, that doesn't require the knock suppression that two pumps are providing via meth, then one failure will not cause a problem... since your not maxed out...

Make sense?

It's the same principle as one pump... if you are tuned to rely on the meth for fuel and knock suppression and it the pump dies, you are relying on the ECU to pull spark fast enough to preserve the engine. The same could be said if you are running two pumps...


QuoteThe answer is not a simple one.. or maybe it is? If your tuned and maxed out for the amount of meth being injected with two pumps, your car is reliant on that flow of meth... if one pump fails, most likely you will experience an adverse reaction to the lack of supplied fuel...

If you are running a conservative tune, that doesn't require the knock suppression that two pumps are providing via meth, then one failure will not cause a problem... since your not maxed out...

Yes, that's where I was going with this.
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.