Hesitation in boost and high rpm

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 05:23:05 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
With everyone thinking engine, the transmission is the wild card here. Or may be a flaw in the PCM strategy. Any way to get LME to get an engineer from Ford to look at it?

From what I understand, LMS can completely flash the PCM, even to another strategy. LMS mentioned transmission but then my answer to that was I'm about 30k miles deep with this issue and imagine the heat that would buildup if the trans was creating any sort of drag on the system. My trans temps are good and the fluid looks like I just poured it in.

StealBlueSho · April 12, 2017, 05:25:24 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
With everyone thinking engine, the transmission is the wild card here. Or may be a flaw in the PCM strategy. Any way to get LME to get an engineer from Ford to look at it?

Would the transmission be causing the fueling issues?

SHOdded · April 12, 2017, 05:35:49 PM

Don't know. The back and forth between engine & transmission is too complicated for me, LOL. But since a MAF or MAP sensor affects shift strategy, you would think feedback from the trans would affect engine fueling decisions. Not unlike a "granny", or the PCM's way of dealing with something unusual that it can't put its' finger on.

StealBlueSho · April 12, 2017, 05:40:36 PM

And does LME actually have that kind of pull to get a Ford Engineer to look into??

Livernois Motorsports · April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM

Alright....

So, lets recant everything, the vehicle had a hesitation at high RPM during cold weather scenarios on the v8 and v10 tunes.
A different tune was written by a different tune that tuned around the issue. After figuring out how to get hands on with the vehicle, we ran the vehicle on the
dyno. Adam Got here on thursday in the morning, it was raining and 40 degrees out. The vehicle was run 8-10 times during the tenure of it's visit. We attempted to replicate the conditions to no avail. Even dead cold with a fan blowing and the door open we were unable to replicate the hesitation on the vehicle with the 93 tune. All signs point to a fuel issue yet it was not able to be replicated while on a dyno, nor did it show in the logs that were taken on the dyno. We are at a loss here as we have over a thousand vehicles running the exact same tune with no similar issues. The only way we could potentially diagnose said issue is to have the vehicle for an extended period of time for full evaluation with no guarantee of finding the source of the issue.
Recently we have had 2 2013MY Ford Ecoboost vehicles (one Explorer, one SHO) that both experienced hesitations that ended up being a bad injector in both cases. Adam has a 2013MY vehicle. The problem being that we could not replicate the issue in the time that the vehicle was here. Adam's vehicle also put down sufficient if not above sufficient numbers for a 93 tune on an SHO. We maintain that in our professional opinion that the issue is with the vehicle itself and not the tune.

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 05:44:32 PM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on April 12, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
Alright....

So, lets recant everything, the vehicle had a hesitation at high RPM during cold weather scenarios on the v8 and v10 tunes.
A different tune was written by a different tune that tuned around the issue. After figuring out how to get hands on with the vehicle, we ran the vehicle on the
dyno. Adam Got here on thursday in the morning, it was raining and 40 degrees out. The vehicle was run 8-10 times during the tenure of it's visit. We attempted to replicate the conditions to no avail. Even dead cold with a fan blowing and the door open we were unable to replicate the hesitation on the vehicle with the 93 tune. All signs point to a fuel issue yet it was not able to be replicated while on a dyno, nor did it show in the logs that were taken on the dyno. We are at a loss here as we have over a thousand vehicles running the exact same tune with no similar issues. The only way we could potentially diagnose said issue is to have the vehicle for an extended period of time for full evaluation with no guarantee of finding the source of the issue.
Recently we have had 2 2013MY Ford Ecoboost vehicles (one Explorer, one SHO) that both experienced hesitations that ended up being a bad injector in both cases. Adam has a 2013MY vehicle. The problem being that we could not replicate the issue in the time that the vehicle was here. Adam's vehicle also put down sufficient if not above sufficient numbers for a 93 tune on an SHO. We maintain that in our professional opinion that the issue is with the vehicle itself and not the tune.

I accept the above but Andy said the plan was to check each cylinder with a camera and force the in-tank fuel pump "on" which would show if there was indeed any leaky injectors.

SHOdded · April 12, 2017, 05:47:49 PM

Yes, and I agree. But do you have diagnostic aids to do a deep dive, like Ford IDS does, without tearing things apart? As users we have access to a few pids, but obviously as a tuner you have a plethora of options to choose from. I don't know if even a cylinder power balance test or ignition waveform analysis would be all that's needed. Some ripples that are inconsequential at lower throttle input but significant at WOT. Could it be an emissions issue? Possibly crud being sucked in volume from the intercooler?

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 06:29:16 PM

So LMS failed in not checking the injectors but I can get past that. New direction of topic, how shall I test said injectors? I have great fuel mileage. The only thing that kind of popped in my head was my dad complained that my exhaust smelled like fuel after flooring it from a dig when he was driving behind me. I assume this is normal in a tuned turbo car and keeping a .73 afr at WOT.

StealBlueSho · April 12, 2017, 06:39:09 PM

Hmmmm... curious... and maybe LMS can correct me if I am wrong... BUT if you had a leaky injector wouldn't your wide band O2's be reading stupid rich?

And there is a company that can test them, let me find the link, but you would need to remove them from the car and mail them to them... I think they are based in Canada IIRC...

SHOdded · April 12, 2017, 06:40:00 PM

You would have to get Ford or Ford-level equipment to test the injectors directly, very expensive on your own. An indirect way is the balance test, and ignition waveform. Basically, we want to prove that the problem exists in the engine and not outside or vice versa. If the balance test fails at high rpm, then you can look at the graphs to identify the miscreant cylinder(s).

A sticking injector might be an issue, given that flooring from a dig outputs a fuel smell. How intense was it? WOT IS going to run richer, so a mild smell would be expected because you cannot make that smooth transition at the drop of a dime. There's always a small window of inefficiency. So how bad the smell is will tell you whether that is indeed an issue to be researched.

Now, looking back, you have a new engine in there right? Long block new injectors new everything except manifolds?

StealBlueSho · April 12, 2017, 06:41:45 PM

https://www.injectorrx.com/direct-injection-fuel-injector-cleaning/

Might be worth looking into, and my mistake... they are in the Great State of Texas...

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 06:46:48 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
You would have to get Ford or Ford-level equipment to test the injectors directly, very expensive on your own. An indirect way is the balance test, and ignition waveform. Basically, we want to prove that the problem exists in the engine and not outside or vice versa. If the balance test fails at high rpm, then you can look at the graphs to identify the miscreant cylinder(s).

A sticking injector might be an issue, given that flooring from a dig outputs a fuel smell. How intense was it? WOT IS going to run richer, so a mild smell would be expected because you cannot make that smooth transition at the drop of a dime. There's always a small window of inefficiency. So how bad the smell is will tell you whether that is indeed an issue to be researched.

Now, looking back, you have a new engine in there right? Long block new injectors new everything except manifolds?

It is a new long block, I am not sure if injectors would be included.

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 06:48:50 PM

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 24, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
We have offered to have the customer bring the vehicle to us for a diagnostic test. At this point we are still believing this to be a mechanical issue but cannot confirm until we can go hands on with the vehicle. As it has been stated above, this is a rare instance, we have many of these vehicles out there without this issue with the same tunes. Both us and the customer are quite baffled by the instance but we are working diligently to not only pinpoint the issue but solve it as well.

LMS has said that they would solve it. I will drive my rear over there again if that is what has to happen.

SHOdded · April 12, 2017, 06:50:20 PM

If it came with the intake installed, the injectors are "new" also.

polskifacet · April 12, 2017, 06:52:00 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
If it came with the intake installed, the injectors are "new" also.

I didn't actually get to see it in the crate.

Just looking at it, looks older than the very shiney valve covers.