HPFP upgrade

Haltech · August 22, 2013, 08:38:17 PM

Im quick, that's how things get done

EcoPowerParts · August 22, 2013, 11:05:05 PM

Quote from: Haltech on August 22, 2013, 08:38:17 PM
Im quick, that's how things get done

I am working on the lift pump, if you can get the HPFP upgrade done then the car should be able to support over 600HP on E85 easily.

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 01:12:06 PM

Does anyone know which Bosch HPFP's are used in the Traverse and Longitudinal 3.5 Ecoboosts?

EcoPowerParts · September 25, 2013, 01:28:39 PM

I don't know which I do know they're different.

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 02:30:56 PM

I'm trying to do some math here to understand how much fuel the stock high pressure fuel system should be capable of flowing, assuming that the low pressure pump is keeping up on its end. All the Bosch HPFP data I can find lists that the pumps flow 1.1cm^3 per rotation. As you can see in the picture below, the Cam lobe that drives the HPFP is 4 sided. This means that each full RPM flows 4.4cm^3 of fuel.

The max pressure that the stock ECU commands the fuel system to deliver is 2150psi (~150 bar) according to Ford's specs I have found online. If I can assume that the HPFP can deliver the quoted 1.1cm^3 at 150 bar then I can put together a simple table that shows the maximum flow at a given RPM(.

rpm   flow cm^3   liter/hr
1500   6600     396
2000   8800     528
2500   11000   660
3000   13200   792
3500   15400   924
4000   17600   1056
4500   19800   1188
5000   22000   1320
5500   24200   1452
6000   26400   1584
6500   28600   1716
7000   30800   1848

IF (and this is a big if in my mind) the math is correct, there should be MORE than enough fuel on the HPFP side, so long as the ECU cam command it and the pump can flow the advertised 1.1cm^3 of fuel per stroke. It is totally possible that the pump can't keep up those flow numbers at high pressure, in which case there would definitely be a limitation. IF (again big assumption) these numbers are right, we just need to increase the low pressure fuel pump flow and the next limit would be the injectors themselves.

EcoPowerParts · September 25, 2013, 02:56:56 PM

I've reported that once I upgraded to dual in tank DW320's and I was on 50/50 E85 at around 460HP I could run without my aux fuel system. Once I went to full E85 I have to supplement, with the new power levels ALOT!

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 03:12:14 PM

Was that due to the fuel pump running out of capacity, or due to the direct injectors running out of capacity? Some more math assuming a 0.95 BSFC for E85 on this motor you need about 790L/hr to produce 700bhp. That should be supportable by the stock HPFP if my previous math is right. I'm pretty sure the ECU would be able to command that without scaling several tables (This had to be done with my returnless fuel tables on my Mustang when I kept with the returnless fuel system but it worked afterwords).

I really need to see some of these fuel tables and see what they look like compared to what I am used to.

EcoPowerParts · September 25, 2013, 04:08:02 PM

I'd have to do alot more datalogging before I can answer that question. It was too easy for me to just start adding fuel via the aux system for me to look at it much.
Soon I'll be done with mods, last one will be a water to air intercooler and then I should be good.

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 04:13:20 PM

We're all anxious to see how your build progresses, as always!

Are the in take pumps supplying your aux system too? I can't remember. Looking at them, they flow right at 300L/hr at the pressures that the supply pumps run at.

EcoPowerParts · September 25, 2013, 04:18:17 PM

My fuel system is now:
Dual in tank fuel pumps -6 feeding FPR in the hood using stock line as return line
FPR dead heads to aux system, DI system and nitrous

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 04:24:03 PM

The dual pumps are probably near their limits then. The stock system runs around 65psi I think, which would mean around 300L/h per pump. Take a look at the Walbro 400lph E85 compatible pumps. They shouldn't be too much of a difference dimensional wise vs what you have now.

EcoPowerParts · September 25, 2013, 04:27:10 PM

Quote from: 05yellowgt on September 25, 2013, 04:24:03 PM
The dual pumps are probably near their limits then. The stock system runs around 65psi I think, which would mean around 300L/h per pump. Take a look at the Walbro 400lph E85 compatible pumps. They shouldn't be too much of a difference dimensional wise vs what you have now.

I'm running dual DW300 pumps that are boost referenced. I'm seeing up to 85psi from the pumps at WOT.

Here's their flow chart:

I was told around 800HP at the crank with my current setup.

05yellowgt · September 25, 2013, 04:58:20 PM

Peak of 85PSI looks to flow a little below 250L/hr per pump. Round that up to 500 total and the math isn't making sense to me. Given that the BFSC of just about ever E85 boosted motor I have seen has been between .85-.95 the math tells me you would need 625-700L/hr of fuel to hit 550rwhp. If we were to assume the pumps are giving their all the BFSC would calculate out to around .68. It would add up if you were running gasoline, but not while running E85 unless the ecoboost is the most efficient motor I've ever heard of (which it is impressive, but not THAT impressive).

Sorry I keep dragging this on out, I'm just a numbers guy that can't help but try to do the math. The 10.9 AFR means you had plenty of fuel so I guess it means I must have made an error along the way somewhere.