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How does altitude affect boost level?

Started by SHOdded, December 27, 2014, 11:57:55 AM

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SHOdded

Please post links/articles regarding the topic.  I will get it started with the following:

http://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/altitude-effects-intake-boost-pressure-52371/

02-11-2005, 12:57 AM      #1
rotarygod
Proud to be arrogant!

rotarygod's Avatar

Altitude effects on intake/boost pressure
It's time for another RG long crazy time consuming thread!!! Take your restroom breaks and go grab a snack.

The point of this is to educate on how altitude plays a role on how much air can enter your engine. You really need to look at the attached spreadsheet to understand how these numbers work. For comparison sake, I am going to just assume 100% efficency and not factor in any losses to backpressure, heat, etc.

The purpose of forced induction is to get more air into the engine so we can make more power. We commonly refer to this as boost. It is typically measured in pounds per square inch (psi). It is a misconception that at sea level we are at 0 psi. This isn't outer space! We are actually at or near 14.7 psi. This varies a little depending on weather conditions so just assume a perfect day by the ocean. When we refer to boost, we want to know how much pressure we are running over this amount. Therefore 6 psi of boost is 14.7 + 6 = 20.7 psi ambient. Everything is referenced to ambient pressure at sea level.

You need to print the attached chart up and look at it while reading the rest of this.

At sea level as stated above, we have 14.7 psi. If we want 6 psi of boost, we need to have 20.7 psi ambient pressure. This is a 40.8% gain over ambient. Desired boost pressure should not be considered in psi but rather in a % over ambient. If we want 6 psi, we really just want 40.8% gain in pressure. You get the point. The rest of the examples assumes we have a fixed ratio of 40.8% more power than stock at that altitude which equals 6 psi at sea level for comparison sake.

At 1000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient (14.18 psi) is. 14.18 X 1.408 (40.8%) = 19.96 psi. That's a loss of 3.575% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). There is less air to begin with at higher altitudes therefore less compression. The percentage increase stays the same but the boost pressure does not. Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge will now read only 5.26 psi since it is set to sea level while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by .74 psi.
A naturally aspirated engine loses 3.538% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 2000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient (13.67) is. 13.67 X 1.408 = 19.247 psi absolute. That's a loss of 7.02% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 4.55 psi while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 1.45 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 7.01% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 3000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 13.17 X 1.408 = 18.54 psi absolute. That's a loss of 10.435% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 3.84 psi while the turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advatage by 2.16 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 10.41% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 4000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 12.7 X1.408 = 17.88 psi absolute. That's a loss of 13.624% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 3.18 psi while the turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 2.82 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 13.606% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 5000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 12.23 X 1.408 = 17.22 psi absolute. That's a loss of 16.81% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 2.52 psi while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 3.48 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 16.8% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

As we can see from this trend, the percentage of power loss between a naturally aspirated engine and a mechanically supercharged engine is close enough to be considered the same. This is what SAE corrections on dyno's is designed to compensate for. They are basing the results at a certain altitude (and temperature but it won't be discussed here) and try to get their results back to sea level on a perfect day. This is a set standard and makes numbers from other dyno's easy to compare. This correction value is based on a set % for altitude and temperature. This is fine for naturally aspirated of mechanically supercharged vehicles but isworthless for exhaust driven turbocharged vehicles. This is because mechanically driven superchargers are boosting to a certain set ratio of air greater than what the engine is actually sucking in. An exhaust driven turbocharged vehicle is set to reference pressure to sea level. At higher altitudes it just works harder to get that pressure back up. It has to work harder since there is less pressure to start with. It's like climbing a ladder. A supercharger is like a person climbing up a ladder from the bottom. His goal is to only climb a certain way in total distance. The turbocharger is like climbing up a ladder to a fixed elevation only it doesn't matter if you startedout on the ground or 10 feet under ground. You still climb to the same spot. The total gain is different and calibrated to a fixed, known location. Got it! This is why you use SAE corrections for naturally aspirated and mechanically supercharged engines but not for exhaust driven turbocharged engines. Correction factors for turbocharged vehicles will basically be the same as giving you some free boost. That's cheating the numbers. It may be great way to sell more product but it isn't an accurate representation of how much power you put down. The greater the altitude change, the more inaccurate it becomes.

In reality, there is some differences that offset the effect of turbochargers holding boost at higher altitudes. First off, the turbo is working harder since it has to spin faster. This creates more heat. we also have an average loss in temperature of 3 degrees F over every thousand feet in elevation rise. While these will affect the final numbers from sea level a small amount, they are nowhere near as off as the SAE correction factor for turbocharged engines at altitude. We may also run into the problem of the turbo getting too far outside it's efficiency range spinning at these speeds. Differently sized turbos will have different efficiencies so we can't jsut get a set standard for this either.

The next time someone tells you that you need to use SAE correction for a turbocharged engine because it is the "standard", laugh at them, tell them to go do their homework and to just go ahead and print up your uncorrected dyno sheet (turbo cars) so you can leave.


Below is the chart that shows the affect that altitude has on air pressure.
   
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Attached Files
File Type: doc    Altitude vs air pressure chart.doc (32.5 KB, 302 views)
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If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

SHOdded

#1
http://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-tech/boosting-altitude-elevation-effects-turbochargers/

Boosting With Altitude – How Elevation Affects Turbochargers
By Chad Westfall posted on Jul 8, 2014 in Power Adders, Tech Stories   

Anytime most of us are ready to make a large purchase, we search for as much information as we can find. That usually means flipping through a lot of magazines, talking to friends, and searching the internet. So, when getting ready to make a large investment, such as a turbocharger, you want to know what is out there, what the best option is and where to get it for the best price.

The Issue

Photos courtesy of BorgWarner and High Tech Turbo.

Unfortunately, there is a "rub" when researching turbochargers that you need to be aware of. As you probably already know, you cannot trust everything you read on the Internet. Outside of that, what works for one person may not always work for another. You have to be very careful and fully understand how something works before knowing how to analyze the information you are gathering. It isn't that people are necessarily trying to steer you wrong, but their environment may be different than yours, so their results may be different.


With a turbocharger, there are lots of different factors that play into how they work. There are hundreds of different combinations with all of the different options out there. There are different compressor cover sizes, compressor wheels, turbine wheels, turbine housings (wastegated and non-wastegated), ball bearing and journal bearings out there to name the major differences. Each combination will affect how the turbo works. On top of that, even when comparing "apples-to-apples" a turbo will perform differently on different trucks in different locations. Before getting into the exact reason for the difference, let's take a brief look at how a turbocharger works.

Overview of how a turbocharger works

Fresh air is sucked into the compressor and it is compressed as it is gets spun around the compressor cover until finally being sent out through the Charge Air Cooler (CAC) tubes. The compressing of the air, heats it up, which is the primary reason for needing an intercooler. Once the air is through the intercooler and into the cylinder, fuel is added and ignited. When the piston is almost at bottom dead center, the exhaust valve(s) open and the exhaust gasses are directed into the exhaust manifold(s) and then into the turbine housing. The hot exhaust gasses flow around the turbine housing (the A/R ratio for the turbine housing is the ratio of the area divided by the radius) and then are directed through the turbine wheel.

Click here to read the article we did discussing the differences in the 70mm and 71mm turbine wheels.

While this is an accurate and very common way of describing how a turbo works, it actually works in a slightly different order. The exhaust side of the equation starts first. Without the hot exhaust gasses being forced through the turbine wheel the compressor wheel would never create boost. The engine sucking air in alone won't spin the compressor wheel fast enough to create any boost.


Turbochargers come in a variety of sizes and configurations. The top photo shows two turbochargers that are on engines. They get smaller than this and larger than this, but it is a good representative range of what you will see today in the non-industrial applications. The photo left and right are of two different turbine housings. Note the one on the right has a wastegated turbine housing.

This is a cutaway of a BorgWarner S500SX that is capable of supporting 900 to 1475 horsepower per charger.

Exhaust driven

If you only look at the turbine wheel side of the equation, the wheel's speed is determined by the amount of thermal energy that can be transferred to mechanical (or rotational) energy. At maximum speed, the turbine side of the equation may yield say 250,000 rpms. But for anyone who has seen a turbo speed gauge you know that 99+% of chargers don't turn 250,000 rpms. So, if the turbine wheel is getting enough energy to turn that fast, what's slowing it down?

Well, that's where the other half of the equation comes into play. The turbine wheel is directly connected to the compressor wheel. As the turbine wheel is spinning pushing the exhaust out, the compressor wheel is sucking air in and compressing it. The compressor wheel is using a lot of the mechanical energy available to create the boost pressure. How much you may ask? Well, that's roughly the same energy being transferred into the boost air going into the intercooler. So, on a competition vehicle running 100 psi of boost, it is using up enough energy to heat up 1200 cfm of air to 500 degrees or more. That's a tremendous amount of energy being lost to the compressor side.

Altitude

Now, as the air density changes (let's say goes down, as with higher altitudes) the thermal energy needed to turn a specific RPM decreases, causing an increase in turbine shaft speed. According to Kurt Henderson, Engineer – Accelerated Innovation at BorgWarner, "A good rule of thumb is that the turbocharger speed will increase 1 to 2 percent every 1,000 ft of elevation increase."
(NOTE:  Open next 2 images in a separate tab/window manually to view actual fullsize)

Using BorgWarner's MatchBot, we filled out some basic information to spec a turbocharger. One is set for 500 ft above sea level and the other is 5,000 ft. Notice the huge difference in how the performance plots on the compressor mat (i.e. the red dots).

If you are someone who lives close to sea level and you are talking to a guy on a forum who lives in Denver, the same turbo isn't going to perform the same. Being 5,000 feet lower in elevation than the guy in Denver means the turbo will be spinning roughly 5 to 10 percent slower for the same power. That may or may not seem like a lot, but it may result in the same amount of boost coming in 200, 300 or even 400 rpm later. When cruising on the freeway (low RPMs) or taking off with a trailer hooked up, that's a huge difference! To get the performance he is getting, you may need to step down one or even two sizes just because of the altitude of your location.

This is a cutaway of BorgWarner's sequential turbocharger setup that was used on the 6.4l Power Stroke.

In addition to altitude, when discussing who's getting what and how things perform, you must take into account temperature. As air density changes with altitude, it also changes with temperature. Anyone living in Phoenix, Arizona can testify to that. Their truck performs much better in the winter than during the summer. So, what is working for someone in North Dakota or Canada won't necessarily be the best option for someone in Arizona or another hot state.

The work around

Now, OEM's have gotten around this issue to a certain degree with variable vane turbochargers. By being able to adjust the RPM of the turbocharger, the OEM can bring in the boost where they deem appropriate. But, that's a whole different topic and article.

Just keep in mind; the internet is a great resource for information (thanks for supporting our digital magazine). But unlike your buddy down the street, the information you get, may need to be analyzed a little more to see how it applies to your particular situation.

Even though you can get approximately the same size compressor wheel in these three different turbocharger (left is an EFR, center is an S300, and right is an S400), they all have different size compressor covers. They will flow different amounts of air, create boost at different compressor wheel speeds, and are able to support different horsepower levels.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

PokerMunkee

Good read! 

My SHO lives at 8,500' and commutes daily 10,000'.   Would love to see how fast our turbos are spinning so we could compare to guys who leave at sea level!

The altitude definitely affects 1/4 times up here.  panther runs mid 13's with his tuned 2013 SHO at Bandimere (almost 6000').   But the poor N/A guys really take a hit.
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Unleashed 91 tune w/ 3BAR, Corsa exhaust, LEDs everywhere
2011 F-250 6.2 CCSB FX4

BiGMaC

Should we address manifold/throttlebody and ambient temp effects here or start a companion thread?... this affects turbo speed and load.  Plus cooler (and therefore denser) air at any given altitude translates into WHP and torque.

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•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

SHOnUup

Cool read, some nice laymens terms there. ;)

Rich

2011 Sterling Gray Metallic SHO non PP,
12.4211 @ 110.28 Livernois 3bar tune & CAI,
Added since...PPE catless Dpipes, Megan coilovers, Powergrid adjustable end links, and EBC slotted rotors and red stuff pads.
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SHOdded

Quote from: BiGMaC on December 27, 2014, 12:58:42 PM
Should we address manifold/throttlebody and ambient temp effects here or start a companion thread?
As long as it addresses altitude as well, it can be included here.  Otherwise, if you have articles/tech to start off a companion thread, great idea!
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

ZSHO

Quote from: SHOdded on December 27, 2014, 11:57:55 AM
Please post links/articles regarding the topic.  I will get it started with the following:

http://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/altitude-effects-intake-boost-pressure-52371/

02-11-2005, 12:57 AM      #1
rotarygod
Proud to be arrogant!

rotarygod's Avatar

Altitude effects on intake/boost pressure
It's time for another RG long crazy time consuming thread!!! Take your restroom breaks and go grab a snack.

The point of this is to educate on how altitude plays a role on how much air can enter your engine. You really need to look at the attached spreadsheet to understand how these numbers work. For comparison sake, I am going to just assume 100% efficency and not factor in any losses to backpressure, heat, etc.

The purpose of forced induction is to get more air into the engine so we can make more power. We commonly refer to this as boost. It is typically measured in pounds per square inch (psi). It is a misconception that at sea level we are at 0 psi. This isn't outer space! We are actually at or near 14.7 psi. This varies a little depending on weather conditions so just assume a perfect day by the ocean. When we refer to boost, we want to know how much pressure we are running over this amount. Therefore 6 psi of boost is 14.7 + 6 = 20.7 psi ambient. Everything is referenced to ambient pressure at sea level.

You need to print the attached chart up and look at it while reading the rest of this.

At sea level as stated above, we have 14.7 psi. If we want 6 psi of boost, we need to have 20.7 psi ambient pressure. This is a 40.8% gain over ambient. Desired boost pressure should not be considered in psi but rather in a % over ambient. If we want 6 psi, we really just want 40.8% gain in pressure. You get the point. The rest of the examples assumes we have a fixed ratio of 40.8% more power than stock at that altitude which equals 6 psi at sea level for comparison sake.

At 1000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient (14.18 psi) is. 14.18 X 1.408 (40.8%) = 19.96 psi. That's a loss of 3.575% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). There is less air to begin with at higher altitudes therefore less compression. The percentage increase stays the same but the boost pressure does not. Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge will now read only 5.26 psi since it is set to sea level while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by .74 psi.
A naturally aspirated engine loses 3.538% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 2000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient (13.67) is. 13.67 X 1.408 = 19.247 psi absolute. That's a loss of 7.02% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 4.55 psi while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 1.45 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 7.01% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 3000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 13.17 X 1.408 = 18.54 psi absolute. That's a loss of 10.435% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 3.84 psi while the turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advatage by 2.16 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 10.41% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 4000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 12.7 X1.408 = 17.88 psi absolute. That's a loss of 13.624% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if it is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 3.18 psi while the turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 2.82 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 13.606% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

At 5000 ft above sea level we need to figure out what 40.8% greater than ambient is. 12.23 X 1.408 = 17.22 psi absolute. That's a loss of 16.81% pressure from sea level. This is what a mechanically driven supercharger will yield if is designed to provide 40.8% more air (6 psi at sea level). Your mechanically driven supercharger's boost gauge now reads 2.52 psi while a turbo's will still read 6 psi. A turbo has the advantage by 3.48 psi. A naturally aspirated engine loses 16.8% pressure at this same elevation over sea level. An exhaust driven turbocharged engine will get a total of 20.7 psi absolute or a 0% pressure loss
since the wastegate is calibrated to sea level or a fixed spring pressure.

As we can see from this trend, the percentage of power loss between a naturally aspirated engine and a mechanically supercharged engine is close enough to be considered the same. This is what SAE corrections on dyno's is designed to compensate for. They are basing the results at a certain altitude (and temperature but it won't be discussed here) and try to get their results back to sea level on a perfect day. This is a set standard and makes numbers from other dyno's easy to compare. This correction value is based on a set % for altitude and temperature. This is fine for naturally aspirated of mechanically supercharged vehicles but isworthless for exhaust driven turbocharged vehicles. This is because mechanically driven superchargers are boosting to a certain set ratio of air greater than what the engine is actually sucking in. An exhaust driven turbocharged vehicle is set to reference pressure to sea level. At higher altitudes it just works harder to get that pressure back up. It has to work harder since there is less pressure to start with. It's like climbing a ladder. A supercharger is like a person climbing up a ladder from the bottom. His goal is to only climb a certain way in total distance. The turbocharger is like climbing up a ladder to a fixed elevation only it doesn't matter if you startedout on the ground or 10 feet under ground. You still climb to the same spot. The total gain is different and calibrated to a fixed, known location. Got it! This is why you use SAE corrections for naturally aspirated and mechanically supercharged engines but not for exhaust driven turbocharged engines. Correction factors for turbocharged vehicles will basically be the same as giving you some free boost. That's cheating the numbers. It may be great way to sell more product but it isn't an accurate representation of how much power you put down. The greater the altitude change, the more inaccurate it becomes.

In reality, there is some differences that offset the effect of turbochargers holding boost at higher altitudes. First off, the turbo is working harder since it has to spin faster. This creates more heat. we also have an average loss in temperature of 3 degrees F over every thousand feet in elevation rise. While these will affect the final numbers from sea level a small amount, they are nowhere near as off as the SAE correction factor for turbocharged engines at altitude. We may also run into the problem of the turbo getting too far outside it's efficiency range spinning at these speeds. Differently sized turbos will have different efficiencies so we can't jsut get a set standard for this either.

The next time someone tells you that you need to use SAE correction for a turbocharged engine because it is the "standard", laugh at them, tell them to go do their homework and to just go ahead and print up your uncorrected dyno sheet (turbo cars) so you can leave.


Below is the chart that shows the affect that altitude has on air pressure.
   
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Register your free account today and become a member on RX8Club.com!
Attached Files
File Type: doc    Altitude vs air pressure chart.doc (32.5 KB, 302 views)
EXCELLENT writeup -MANU,my post in Max Boost is easier to understand regarding altitude and boost,ha ha,Lol.


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