Quote from: 4DRHTRD on August 27, 2014, 11:18:04 AM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on August 26, 2014, 11:25:10 PM
BPD's fueling system is supplemented with Methanol. And, although he is showing large boost numbers, that is only part of his tunes' equation. We certainly could tune for Ethanol but choose not to on the Ecoboost. We have already explained why. Fueling volume requirements and varying ethanol qualities play a big part in the overall decision. We also have doubts on how accurate any data logging is. Nobody has dyno or track tested the Ecoboost as thoroughly as Livernois has. The results of that testing, as we have said before are proven by countless dyno and track run documentations. We feel very comfortable with our tunes and our wish is that those that use them will feel comfortable as well as appreciate the gains they produce. This is our view on tuning matters discussed.
What do you use to data log that is different that what SCT uses to data log, since you have both systems and use both systems have you done a side by side comparison, same car, same dyno and can you share how the data was different?
Also are you sure you have the most dyno/track testing? I would hazard that Torrie is equal or has dyno'd more cars and worked with more data logs and I'll explain why:
You will only deal with one customer at a time on your dyno at your shop (mixed in with all the other vehicles you support) vs Torrie will work with multiple people simultaneously each week to do either data log reviews from dynos or live remote data logging. Also unless you've changed I don't believe your own device can do data logs at the track that the customer can do and then send to you vs Torrie works constantly with many people to do data log revisions based off of track logs.
Making these statements are great for marketing but I would hazard not necessarily correct. On the F150 platform I know Erick@LET works almost all day every day reviewing logs, doing tune updates, making revisions and responding to road, track and dyno logs. The other people who tune are constantly reviewing their tunes and working to update them daily and learn daily on this specific platform and as a result are making revision iterations much faster than you guys do.
You make a great "base" tune (since you don't like canned) for many people that is safe based off of your assessment that X tune will work across many different climates, fuel blends etc. The other tuners start with that then work with the customers to modify the tune based off of data logging and review then update accordingly based off of how the car reacts to local conditions and fuel, heck even how the vehicle was built.
More to the base tune point - you make a 91 octane tune but do you make a 91 octane AZ tune and 91 octane CA tune? We have different qualities of gas, some of our stations carry CA gas and we ping mercilessly but if we use local 91 octane gas (local Circle K not associated with Shell) you can run more timing without pinging. I'm sure East coast 91 octane is like gold compared to ours. Since you don't do specific customer data log tune revisions and don't do state based fuel tunes then you have to make a 91 octane tune that works for the worst of fuel instead of sending a tune, getting feedback from the customer on how the tune is working on their vehicle with that fuel and then making +/- adjustments to timing to accommodate accordingly.
We are using OEM grade hardware to ensure proper logging. We do not use a PID that then has an equation, to then give a improper value like so many other logging devices. This can result in seeing the wrong values which we have seen happen time and time again. I am not certain why you keep asking the same questions over and over again on this. We offered to fly you here to see what we do, we have offered others that are non-believers to fly you here to see what we do, and whenever we offer, the excuses start flowing. It's very disappointing that you would rather continue to spout incorrect information with no hard data while saying we do the same. The difference is we have offered to show people, while you just bash us rather than caring about the community by having an open mind on things.
Now, addressing the facts. 91 octane from various regions of course varies slightly, but dear lord, if you have your tune so much on asswhooper that you are having to adjust it because you went to a different station that is part of the problem that shows lack of wisdom in tuning. These are peoples cars, their 40k+ investment, why would anyone want to have to load a different tune everytime they decided to fill up somewhere else than normal, or go out of town?
But, we actually do testing on fuels. I think many times people forget where we are. We are in Dearborn Heights, right next to Dearborn. We have access to likely the most automotive testing resources in the entire country, this includes fuel depots that have fuel of different blends specifically just for testing.
Back again on datalogging, these loggers people are using have been proven to be incorrect. A great example is a/f ratio. People continue to request a/f ratio to tune these, and many other cars, but the computer doesn't speak in A/F, so an outside company takes a generic PID (which is broadcast much slower than the way we log) and converts it to a/f. But how is this done? You can't calculate A/F without knowing at the bare minimum the stoichiometric A/F of the fuel you're running. What if it's 14.64, 14.58, 14.53, 14.08, 13.71, etc? The A/F calculation changes based on this, as would the tuning associated with it. This flawed system of datalogging is why it takes so many attempts back and forth to get it better, but also why you never see that need with us. We know enough about these cars that we don't need logs. And in the rare occasion we are stumped, we load the tune into one of 11 different ecoboost vehicles at our disposal and recreate it.
Another glaring issue with logging is you are asking customers to go out, and run their car hard with a potential issue. It takes just one WOT run with the tune wrong to blow it up. I also don't know how anyone can ask someone to go run these cars in 4th gear on public roads to gather accurate info. Doing a WOT run in 1st and 2nd does not load these cars properly, so not having an log at low load is rather meaningless. I don't know who here wants to sign up to run from 80-140 repeatedly to get important information. And on top of that, by doing so you are watching info, while not knowing if it's right or wrong, so if it's wrong it's very easily going to be too late, the damage will be done, all so someone can get a log that now is worthless since the car is damaged. Again, just another reason why we use our cars to do this.
When tuned with the right logic, and knowledge behind it, the tune is right from the word go. You don't see Ford going around tuning the car differently for various regions, brands of fuel, or anything like that.
You have also accused us in the past of copying others, which is unfortunate. Let me just spell out some facts about us, our tuning, our products, and the results from it.
in 2009, before anyone had software, we were tuning the SHO and MKS.
In 2011 we were tuning the f150 Eco before other companies could even flash it. We were the first again
in 2012 we were tuning the 2013 SHO while other software wasn't out for 6-8 months later
in 2012 we were tuning the Explorer Sport, almost a full year and a half before anyone else.
first to tune the 2.0 fusion
first to tune the 1.5 fusion
first to tune the 1.6 fusion
first to tune the 2.0 escape
first to tune the 1.6 escape
first tune only 12 second SHO
first 11 second SHO
first 12 second F150
First 12 second Explorer Sport
First with upgraded turbos
First with Downpipes
First with Methanol kits
First to offer 3-bar tuning
First 600whp EcoBoost Dyno captured on video
Highest HP EcoBoost Engine on the planet
I am sure there are more things, like exhausts we have helped create, and other items, but this post is plenty long enough.
We spend a great deal of time and resources making certain what we have is the best out there, and the easiest, most reliable offering. We would love to be able to charge our customers, and then make them do the work for us, but it's not how we operate.
Just take a minute to look at the fast list, read it over, and see where our tuned cars are at. I guess it's hard to argue with results.
