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Another catastrophic engine failure

Started by Tuner Boost, May 17, 2014, 12:06:31 PM

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Tuner Boost

From what I can see, looks like piston damages from tune that desensitized or disabled factory knock sensors.

Until I can tear it all down and inspect closer I wont know for sure as this could have been damaged from partial hydro lock over time as well, but piston broke just to the side of the wrist pin and left app 1/3 still in the bore. I will need to look for signs of detonation on the rest later. Drivers side head is damaged as well from parts hammering the chamber and valves:





We thought since this a 4X4 the owner would like a loaner that sits high so were giving him this to drive in the mean-time:

8-71 blower so those rubber bands can burn fast.

yowen

So what kind of vehicle did you see this failure in?!? What was modded about this vehicle?
2010 Taurus SHO, Tuxedo Black
Awaiting Installation: Catless Downpipes, LMS Tune, 3Bar Map Sensor

BiGMaC

Quote from: yowen on May 17, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
So what kind of vehicle did you see this failure in?!? What was modded about this vehicle?

Yes please... a description of the vehicle and engine with mods... TIA

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

SHOdded

More updates please, Tracy.  I think most people on this forum are very careful with their rides, and I am sure would at the MOST disable the rear O2 sensor (to pass emissions).

Nice rendition of a 4x4 :D
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

BiGMaC

Quote from: SHOdded on May 17, 2014, 03:18:12 PM
More updates please, Tracy.  I think most people on this forum are very careful with their rides, and I am sure would at the MOST disable the rear O2 sensor (to pass emissions).


Just FYI, in AZ and at least a few other states...
The first step in emissions testing is a "readiness test"... where OBDII is connected to make sure all emissions equipment (includes O2 sensors)... are all on...and no codes issued on them with a full driving cycle completed...
if any DTC's are present or any of the system is disabled ---> automatic fail.

Please don't keep us in suspense on the engine type and vehicle Tracy.... more info please.

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

black99lightning

More info needed.  What tune, what gas, what type of EB vehicle? 
2013 Esport 13.44 @ 103.6
1999 Lightning 12.44 @ 108.4
2012 GT500 10.96 @ 130.6
2006 GTO 12.83 @ 107.8
2013 CTSV coupe 11.79 @ 119.7

shoman04

#6
Quote from: BiGMaC on May 17, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on May 17, 2014, 03:18:12 PM
More updates please, Tracy.  I think most people on this forum are very careful with their rides, and I am sure would at the MOST disable the rear O2 sensor (to pass emissions).


Just FYI, in AZ and at least a few other states...
The first step in emissions testing is a "readiness test"... where OBDII is connected to make sure all emissions equipment (includes O2 sensors)... are all on...and no codes issued on them with a full driving cycle completed...
if any DTC's are present or any of the system is disabled ---> automatic fail.

Please don't keep us in suspense on the engine type and vehicle Tracy.... more info please.
I installed my Stock tune drove 150mile and all ready lights turn on but no check engine light until 200 miles.  So I pass even with LMS D-PIES.
2011 KONA BLU SHO,Livernois Tune,AIRAID CAI,DYNOMAX MUFFLEs,Newest member of the 12sec CLUB 12.669sec @ 107mph    2011 Ford Taurus SHO: 12.669 @ 105.050 MPH NEW FOR 2013LMS down-pipe,Magnaflow X-pipe,and Custom 2.5"exhaust pipe!! Meth and stage 5 next to be install!!!!!! METH DYNO TUNE today 405AWHP!!!WOW LMS track day 12.4209sec   :mike1:

Tuner Boost

Rear O2 sensors only give emissions readiness and function data for the cats, they have zero effect on the engine.

This looks like another "deleted/desensitized/or knock retard commanded to instantly re-insert max timing for max power w/out the safety the knock sensors provide.

Also could be compounded by past partial hydro-lock that deformed and cracked piston allowing it to be weakened until some detonation took it apart.

F150 Ecoboost, well know questionable tuner that has been defrauding vendors and has a growing list of similar failures.

CAI and a few other bolt ons, but nothing that could contribute to this.

I really need the rest of the piston parts in hand to examine closely and I can tell exactly what happened, so right now is an educated guess, and that is what I describe above.

We have been doing tons of R&D and tear downs of DI engines since 2008 as well as mods and have pushed the limits on WRX, Mazda speed 3's, GM 4L super charged and turbo charged, and all the rest from Audi to Mercedes seeing what limits, failures, and issues all have. The failures of the EB engines to date we see are mainly hydro lock issues and bearing failures due to the contaminated engine oil from the poor PCV system, but the past few months more and more are definately tune related. The knock sensors are there to be a fail safe, so if timing is being pulled as KR, there is a reason for it. Anyone can desensitize or defeat knock sensors and poor the timing advance at an engine and get more power than the next tuner if that is the goal.....but to what end?  A good SAFE tune requires intact knock sensors tables with only some minor tweaks and being aware of just how lean is too lean as far as A/F ratio under load and in boost when detonation is most prevalent.  If you log your EB and see some KR timing pull that is normal to an extent. If your under a load and at full boost and see no KR, especially if approaching high 13 or 14:1 or leaner, then someone has messed with the sensitivity or worse and your safety is missing.

In the old days before computer controlled engine management we listened for the telltale "marble rattle" (death rattle) and new to back off the timing a few degrees until it was no longer heard (if the pistons did not melt in the meantime).  But today, the knock sensors will detect this detonation far faster then the human ear can detect and already command the ECU to pull timing until it ceases. All in milliseconds.  These engines we all know have the PCV system design flaw, but that aside, a very skilled tuner will know how to do some minor tweaks to the spark and KR tables to avoid failures like these (nearly always catastrophic) , while the reckless tuner looking for bragging rights will disregard and push for the biggest dyno #'s no matter the cost to the vehicle owner, and then blame engine failures on everything BUT their recklessness.

I'll report back more as we find. We can almost always inspect and study a failure and determine what happened by studying all the parts and determine what happened first, and what the initial failure then caused.  Can't hide detonation , it leaves its very bold signature.  Hydro-lock (the most common) will show  piston top pieces with no signs of erosion or breached piston ring seal, and the rod(s) are always bent to some extent.  Contaminated oil will show long term gradual wear of the bearings and journals and a good amount of those particles will be tapped in the oil filter showing the progression before a bearing finally "turns". Heat discoloration on the main and rod caps will show which starved/failed first as the most blue/discolored and it is usually a clear indication from the oil galley feed first in line from the oil pump that will show if metal was circulating (fuel/water/etc. accumulated in the EB crankcase due to the PCV falw...the Caddy ATS L4 turbo has the same issue, just not as severe).

Hope this helps, and understand, ALL with a "reckless" tune will not have engine failure, the use of nothing but 93 octane will be a good safety step, etc. Meth inj is also a great safety step to take.

I would like to see more oil analysis done by members and the results posted. Always take the sample after the engine has been run for a period and is hot, cap the sample as unburnt fuel will quickly evaporate. And I trust BlackStone as a very consistent source to use.





JimiJak

#8
Thank you Tracy for a very complete and informative response it's very helpful. Especially with the discussions going on right now regarding LMS' findings on the other side of things: rod failure.

Im sure I'm not alone when I say I would love to here you weigh in on that thread also to get a second opinion. What LMS says makes sense, im just wondering how this compares with your findings as well.

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2948.0.html
Also somewhat related.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2931.0.html

By the same token, I would LOVE to hear LMS and Torrie's take on the tuning issues mentioned above. Maybe even if it's just a safety assurance regarding knock sensors remaining on and conservative timing.
"America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed." - Eleanor Roosevelt

2014 XSport Black Betty Build

boostedflex

All of these threads have me so paranoid now.  I am assuming our major tuners, LMS and Unleashed, are conservative with the knock retard logic, does anyone have data on that?  As for the PVC stuff, any recommendations?  I have been doing my oil with synthetic every 7,500 miles, should I do it more frequently?  And I guess for the hydro locking not as big of a concern for the transverse guys?  Sorry for all the questions.
2017 Explorer Sport
Stock

2012 Flex, sold
Unleashed 93 tune, 170 degree t-stat, Airaid intake, Motorcraft SP534 plugs

Tuner Boost

There are plenty of good tuners that will not risk an engine in the tune, and they are the ones to have confidence in.  It only takes a few bad ones cutting corners to show more power than the next that should be avoided.......and determining who these are is difficult as only time and a series of failures from the same tuner are usually the only way to know.

I can say I would have faith in the ones that have a great reputation. Lots of benefits.

Now on to bearing failures. Full syn is a must after the initial break-in, but the real concern is if your crankcase oil is being contaminated with unburnt fuel, water, sulfuric acid, etc. from improper evacuation, and that is where we see rod/bearing failures.

7500 mile w/a good full syn oil is fine, even slightly longer if driven easy....but if you have these contaminates accumulating then even 2k miles may be the limit that the oil can still provide protection while containing contaminates. Oil analysis I cant stress enough. It's like the Dr ordering blood work on you. see what is going on inside your motor. I prefer BlackStone.

And yes, hydro-lock does NOT seem to be nearly the concern for the transverse vehicles...mainly the F150 based (and I am not sure yet why, just theories I have).

Tuner Boost

Also want to add. Timing pulled (KR) will show as dips in a dyno graph (smoothing eliminates what the customer can see also) and jagged close together lines will be a sign of timing pulled and put back quickly. If it is a bit wider between the peaks it as it should be.

JohnnyBravo

I have a buddy with an F-150 that used a tuner (not LMS or Unleashed) and discovered that somehow the tuner had locked out the truck from reading any knock over 3.0.  If I understood it correctly, 2.9 is the limit for knock on the F-150.  You don't want to go beyond that.  So as he's datalogging his truck, knock never went over 2.9.  He figured that was a perfect, max power tune. 

But what he didn't know was that the truck might actually be seeing more knock than that. However, the tune wouldn't let it record anything over 2.9.  He could have had knock at 5.0 and wouldn't know it.  It would still show as 2.9.  That's sketchy.

After he learned that, he went with a different tuner.  Hopefully, he didn't do any damage to his motor while running that tune.

That's as bad as tinkering with a wide band 02 gauge so it simply never reads leaner than 11.5:1, even if the vehicle is running 14.0:1.  You're bound to blow something up. 


bamsho

Tracy, just throwing this out there.  Could the hydro-lock issue you talked about being more common on the F150 due to the turbos actually being larger than the transverse EB motors.  I'm not sure of the real major differences between the 3.5 EB in the trucks and the transverse platforms.
2013 white Gen 5.  Gearhead Intercooler, Turbosmart wastegate actuators, Alky Controls meth kit, Livernois catted downpipes,  Livernois Corsa cat back black etched tips.  2016 True Street Champion.

Tuner Boost

Johnny, excellent post. I had not known that and that would explain alot!  Most tuning I do is with HPTuners and in non EB engines but that would explain why so many failures. It only takes a few seconds under load for knock to destroy a piston.

bamsho,   you may also be onto something.  I do know for sure the transverse CAC is subject to more radiated engine heat so is not as effective as the trucks.....and with the flawed PCV system as long as the water/fuel/etc. is not being evacuated at a steady and constant rate directly into the IM via vacuum, so more will condense and collect in the trucks, the added boost volume of the bigger turbos will push this accumulation more redily into the IM in one big gulp.

Good thoughtful discussion here all!!!  See?  More brains the more we can consider. No one person ever "know it all" and I sure dont.