Turn on / off pop with JBL MS8 and Sony

[Lanson]

We DID make it too complicated.

He used the wrong wire, a sub wire.

When he sees this and swaps the wires, I betcha it works perfectly.

[Lanson]

I quickly read most of the posts  and you guys are making this too complicated.  If the MS8 is the only thing powering the speakers and the only thing you added...

From what Lanson said the MS8 has a turn on OUTPUT that can control other amps with a delay setting.  That wouldn't do anything to the MS8 itself and your problem is still the factory amp turning on after the MS8 is already on and supplying sound to the speakers.

You need to cut the wire going to the factory amp that you already tapped into for the MS8 turn on.  Cut it away from the connector so you have extra wire to work with (are room to work if you need to reconnect it later for selling the car).  So now the original wire you used will only be going to the MS8's turn-on input.  Now connect the MS8's turn-on output to the wire you cut going to your factory amp.  Now the delay setting in the MS8 will control how long the factory amp receives power after the MS8 does.

So the wire goes

car
|
|
|-> MS8 turn on input

x (cut)

|-> MS8 turn on output
|
|-> Factory amp

Well that's not true though... you really can't use the factory amp.  It goes factory stuff IN to the MS8, and then MS8 out either speakers, or amps to power speakers.

[dalum]

Are you saying he has the factory amp speaker out and the MS8 speaker out both connected to the speakers?  Unless he seriously screwed up the wiring like that the thump is probably the factory system turning on after the MS8 is already on.  If the MS8 wasn't on it couldn't send the thump to the speakers.

As a test unhook the turn on lead to the MS8, turn the car and the stereo on (should be no thump).  Now touch the MS8's turn-on to +12.  If it thumps something is wrong in the MS8. 

[dalum]

Well that's not true though... you really can't use the factory amp.  It goes factory stuff IN to the MS8, and then MS8 out either speakers, or amps to power speakers.

It's my understanding you HAVE to use the factory amp.  Its the dsp/hub of the whole system and there isn't any line level audio to be grabbed anywhere.  High level signal from factory amp/dsp to high level input of MS8. 

I do see vt-gy/gy vt/ye as audio in left+, left-, right+, right- to the dsp/amp but I think this might just be the rca inputs from the front of the car.  I'm pretty sure other people have already tested this.

I was wrong earlier when I said the delayed remote out on the MS8 would fix it.  The factory amp is already turning on after the MS8 and the MS8 is amplifying that sound to the speakers (thump).  You need the MS8 to turn ON second but turn OFF first.

[dalum]

Here's the wiring for the sony amp/dsp from the Shop Manual.  Its for my 13 but should be the same as yours.

Lanson
So the pin you should be connected to I think is pin 1, a violet/red wire.

Pin 3 is a SUBWOOFER wire!  Its the Right Rear (think, single sub but dual voice coil) + output.  THAT's IT!!!

I see the "enable" wire as Violet/Red Pin 3 on 16 pin connecter using 9 wires.  It's labeled "cntrl mod - audio subwoffer/amplifier enable.  Flow chart says to check this wire for +12 when no audio is heard from any speakers.  But this dsp/amp is really the half the system and its just labeled poorly so he's using the correct turn on wire.  You're mixing up your pins on different connectors.

Pin 1 Violet is the right sub's + wire in a different 16 pin connector using 8 wires.  Another 16 pin connector using 16 wires has the rest of the speaker outs.

[dalum]

and just for shits and giggles here's the whole Audio system.

[themetalmaster]

Here's the wiring for the sony amp/dsp from the Shop Manual.  Its for my 13 but should be the same as yours.

Lanson
So the pin you should be connected to I think is pin 1, a violet/red wire.

Pin 3 is a SUBWOOFER wire!  Its the Right Rear (think, single sub but dual voice coil) + output.  THAT's IT!!!

I see the "enable" wire as Violet/Red Pin 3 on 16 pin connecter using 9 wires.  It's labeled "cntrl mod - audio subwoffer/amplifier enable.  Flow chart says to check this wire for +12 when no audio is heard from any speakers.  But this dsp/amp is really the half the system and its just labeled poorly so he's using the correct turn on wire.  You're mixing up your pins on different connectors.

Pin 1 Violet is the right sub's + wire in a different 16 pin connector using 8 wires.  Another 16 pin connector using 16 wires has the rest of the speaker outs.

I appreciate the input guys. I've got pictures of how I have this set up, because I don't think I'm communicating it clearly.

http://imgur.com/a/YWjco

Remote in is connected to pin 3 via wire tap. It is the violet with Red on the top connector of the Sony amp. This wire changes states when accessory power is turned on.

12v connected to battery with 4ga wire, fused in engine bay.
GND connected to chassis at factory ground point

Subs in the rear deck are disconnected at the speakers. All of the speakers in the car are plugged into the MS8 directly. I do not have any other amplifiers. I am using factory speakers.

[themetalmaster]

Ok, I tried what Dalum suggested and interrupted the violet wire on pin 3 so that the side coming from the car is going to remote in on the MS8 and the remote out of the MS8 is going to the same wire on the connector of the sony amp. I still get the speaker pop.
Like below:

CAR-----remote in MS8 ---- remote out MS8 --- Sony amp

If I don't connect the remote out in this configuration and the wire on pin 3 is interrupted, the Sony amp never turns on as I don't hear any music. But I still get speaker pop when I shut the car off. If I do connect the remote out, the Sony amp powers on and I hear music, and also speaker pop when I shut the car off or turn it on.

So now I'm thinking I have a bad MS8.

[ShoBoat]

Here's an idea, disconnect the trig wire from the ms8. Grab a constant 12v from another source. Do you have a simple switch laying around? If you do run the 12v constant to the switch and then to the trig on the ms8. This will allow you to test various scenarios. Turn on the system and then hit the switch, see if you get the pop. Try turning on the ms8 first and then the system and see if you get the pop. If you do in both cases a phone call to JBL may be in order.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lanson]

Guys, it isn't pin 3. 

I'm staring at the 2011 Ford SHO OEM service manuals, and it shows
Pin 1 is enable/clip detect, a violet/red wire, coming from connector C4208A.  They call it the "Audio Amplifier".  It goes to unit "Audio Digital Signal Processing Module", ALSO connects on that side to Pin 1 connector C4326C. 

Here's where everybody might be messing up.  There SHOULD be a separate small amplifier that the subwoofer uses.  For my Flex, this is what I powered off of, and it was perfect.  You don't want to do a thing to the DSP processor amp.  The separate amp that is connected with that pin 1 I just spoke of, is your target.  The service manual section of Ford's manual states that the Sony setup has this separate audio amp for the sub only.  You want to completely disconnect this particular amp, steal its violet/red wire trigger, and leave the rest of that amp's wiring disconnected.  Then, the big DSP/amp will send a signal of turn-on to the MS8 AFTER it turns itself on. 

It may have changed dramatically for 2013...I know my Flex did.  I had to change my game up entirely when I went from my 2010 Flex to my 2013. 

edit:  I looked more at the manual's R&R section, the stupid DSP sits ON TOP of the stupid separate amp.  So, you'll be pulling off that connector under the DSP.  You don't want to screw with how the Sony DSP/amp turns on at all.  Just the other amp right behind it.  Remember, you were getting pops if you had the volume up at all.  Well, the MS8 doesn't care about volume it just plays whatever its given.  So yes... the wrong turn-on wire was used here.

[themetalmaster]

I'll take better pictures of my connectors. I have both the 2011 and 2013 wiring diagrams. They are different. The 2011 says there is a separate amp to drive the subs in the rear deck. The 2013 says that all the speakers including the sub's are driven off the Sony amp / DSP.

My car for some reason or another has an undocumented change where all the speakers are driven off the Sony amp. There is no separate amp for the subs.

My car has the same wire colors as the 2013 but the pin out is different.

I've got another MS8 on the way just in case I got a bad one.

I really appreciate your help and patience in helping me solve this issue.

[Lanson]

I'll take better pictures of my connectors. I have both the 2011 and 2013 wiring diagrams. They are different. The 2011 says there is a separate amp to drive the subs in the rear deck. The 2013 says that all the speakers including the sub's are driven off the Sony amp / DSP.

My car for some reason or another has an undocumented change where all the speakers are driven off the Sony amp. There is no separate amp for the subs.

My car has the same wire colors as the 2013 but the pin out is different.

I've got another MS8 on the way just in case I got a bad one.

I really appreciate your help and patience in helping me solve this issue.

That's just crazy that it is wired differently.  Something's up, and we need to get to the bottom of it.  I strongly feel that the MS8 is just fine.  When they go bad, they go really, really bad.  Like all-hell-breaks-loose bad, and you'll know it.  It also happens extremely rarely, and seems to be directly tied into a possible very low voltage situation when doing tuning, so I doubt you'll run into that.  Point is, I think the MS8 is not the issue. 

For now, I would advise attaching a simple toggle switch to act as your turn-on.  Use a constant 12V, and we'll troubleshoot with the MS8 this way.  I would also order up a PAC TR-4, and get ready to install it.  It only costs a few bucks and always could be good to have one around.  Now, I would make sure that all speaker inputs and outputs are really what they are supposed to be, and later we can pour over manuals to make sure.  Then, I would leave alone any remote turn on leads from any part of the system.  Use a switch, and test with the MS8 completely off to make sure no pops are coming.  Then turn on the MS8 after the whole system powers up.  Then the other way.  I did a build for a new Flex, and we had a pop when trying to use a certain turn on point.  We resorted to using the TR-4 on a CAN signal line.  No pop, but the MS8 does power up sometimes when something like a door is opened, or some other CAN signal occurs.  It was supposed to only be the CAN Multimedia BUS, but apparently it wakes up more than we thought.  That said...NO pops occur on his Flex. 

For MY Flex, my new 2013... I purposely wired the MS8's turn on directly to the ignition switch ON.  I did this because I was having difficulty with turn on signals and mind you, I installed this a year ago before we knew much about the 2013's vast differences from the one I had before.. That said, the ignition ON is a great place to connect, but I get a turn on pop if I switch to ON, let the system start playing, and then try to start the car.  The slight interruption of power when the car tries to start screws it up a bit, and I get a pop.  So what I do is when I have the car in the ON position but not running (let's say, while filling with gas), when I get back in I'll move the key quickly to off, and then right back to Start and ON.  This tiny change means that there's no pop, the MS8 is happy, the amps are happy, and everything works perfectly.  It also means that my MS8 turns off in ACC mode, which for me is a good thing because I'll drain my batt quickly with the system playing, so ACC could be just to open a window or run the NAV, or something like that.  I could fix this with a TR4 but honestly, I'm so used to turning the key off and right back on when I need to (like filling with gas while listening out the window), that it just has become automatic.  I am explaining this BTW because it may suit you and your build too.

[dalum]

Ok, I tried what Dalum suggested and interrupted the violet wire on pin 3 so that the side coming from the car is going to remote in on the MS8 and the remote out of the MS8 is going to the same wire on the connector of the sony amp. I still get the speaker pop.
Like below:

CAR-----remote in MS8 ---- remote out MS8 --- Sony amp

If I don't connect the remote out in this configuration and the wire on pin 3 is interrupted, the Sony amp never turns on as I don't hear any music. But I still get speaker pop when I shut the car off. If I do connect the remote out, the Sony amp powers on and I hear music, and also speaker pop when I shut the car off or turn it on.

So now I'm thinking I have a bad MS8.

The MS8 has a constant (battery) +12v lead right?  I want you to disconnect the turn on input and turn on output wires from it (sony totally off with no turn on going to it).  Turn the car totally off with all the doors closed but windows open.  Now use a test lead and bridge the +12v and turn on input. Listen for a pop (guessing none).  Now disconnect that jumper wire and listen for another pop (guessing pop).  That would prove its a problem in the MS8.

Repete the test with the sony connected to the MS8 turn on output and the highest delay setting.  You will probably get a pop at the time of the delay when the sony turns on and a pop when the ms8 turns off.

You won't be able to do anything about the Sony popping its outputs when powered on but I'm really surprised the MS8 doesn't mute its input for a second or 2 when it powers on.  With a properly working MS8 you may find yo won't get the turn on pop either.  If you still do you'll need a delay timer turning on the ms8 after the sony powers up so it won't amplify its pop to the speakers.

Using 2 diodes you can isolate the factory and ms8 turn on from each other but still use them both at the same time.  This will turn on the sony first from the car, ms8 on after its added on timer delay turn on, then keep the sony via the ms8's turn on output until after ms8's amp is off.

[themetalmaster]

Dalum and Lanson, really appreciate your help with this.

I will try out both of your suggestions and report back.

[Lanson]

I'd almost bet my highly modified Flex that it isn't the MS8.  If the car was with me and I got to actually see everything, I would absolutely bet my own car that the MS8 is not at fault here.  Like I said, when it goes wrong, it goes really, really wrong. 

It DOES mute outputs.  My system, it goes on with the ON ignition, head unit kicks on first, MS8 boots up (but isn't playing output), amps turn on, MS8 un-mutes and the system plays beautifully.