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Lanson's 2013 Flex - Extreme SQ audio (re)build

Started by Lanson, April 10, 2014, 01:49:51 PM

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panther427

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on April 12, 2014, 07:43:13 PM
I can't see any if the pics and it's killing me???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Trust me it cheaper and easier on your wallet if you don't see.


That turned out very well.. Can't wait to SEE your next AUDIO improvement.   :kakashi4:
2013 SHO

mjhpadi

Very nice work, and thanks for taking the time to document with photos and sharing it!
2010 Candy Red SHO, Livernois Stage 4 Tune, Airaid CAI, Tinted Headlamps & Tails, LED Interior Lighting, LED Running Lights, LED Puddle and License Plate Lamps, LED DRL's, Window Tint, Rear Window Spoiler, V3 Triton Switchback Running Lights, Colgan Bra, Ford Racing Gauges (oil pressure, oil temperature, boost/vacuum)
Replaced by 2020 Hertiage Edition GT-350

Lanson

Quote from: BiGMaC on April 12, 2014, 09:27:24 PM
Quote from: Lanson on April 12, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Quote from: BiGMaC on April 12, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
Freakin' Awesome Lanson!  :clap2:  Beautiful work!

How will you manage the "grille or cloth to avoid  a lens effect on the tweets?

Are you still using larger mids in the doors?

I have acoustically transparent grille cloth, so I'll make an inner shape out of 1/4" (probably rout the edges for a cool curved look) and then cover it with the cloth.  Remember an important trait of 3/4" tweeters over something perhaps a bit larger...they are just small enough that they do not beam, even at the highest audible frequencies.  So, there should be no lensing or any ill effect as long as the grille cloth and the frame that it is attached to doesn't acoustically mess with the signature.

The factory panel was screwing up the sound quality of the tweeters I had in there, because of the plastic grille holes and shape.  I'm happy to be rid of that now!

Oh, and to answer your question on the mid, there will be a significant upgrade on those soon.  I'll be cutting the door dramatically (but it will still look really cool, trust me!)

Thanks... the significance of the upgrade is even more important with the lensing info!

Can hardly wait to see how you manage the door speakers and time delay to blend with the A pillar set. When it's all done you should have a denser sound field also with better stereo imaging for sure!

Yes the ms8 processor accounts for time delay and many other things automatically when calibrating. 

The ms8 is really in its element working in a system like this.

Thanks!
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

So to update, I created the grilles right after work out of 1/4" MDF

I made these beauties with a jigsaw, and a holesaw and some CAREFUL eyeballing.  haha.


Here's maybe a better shot of just how small this part is


Shot them with black paint


This was tedious right here... I used my upholstery glue and just sprayed it into a paper plate, then used a tiny foam applicator pad (the ones I usually use to detail a car's tiny little crevices like a door jamb) and rubbed the glue only on the sides of the shape.  I let it sit a little while to tack up, and then placed the grille cloth on in a tight fashion.  The tricky part was keeping the glue off the face!



Forgive the weak pics here, it was late and my camera phone shots are just awful. 





Now, I'm going to go over all the bad stuff that happened.

Ok, so as you can probably tell the pillars are pretty much out of the way and done.  I'm 95% happy with them, and for my first ones ever, I can definitely live with the result.  Let me share with you some of the pitfalls in my design, so if you're following along you'll make less mistakes than I did (or new ones, but that's cool 'cause we learn.)

1st mistake, and it was a biggie, do not use Melamine wrap around your shape (the white strip stuff I used to make the lip edge of each of these) if you can help it.  The material has a few undesirable traits and one just bit me in the butt this afternoon.  There's this adhesive that is heat-activated, on the backside of this material.  Well, the Vegas afternoon sun beat down on my car, and partially lifted the vinyl where it attaches to this Melamine strip.  I can tell it is this adhesive lifting, because under the vinyl it is ultra-sticky but the adhesive from the Melamine strip is stuck to the vinyl, and not stuck to the Melamine!  So, the right product to use is something else, like a piece of thicker laminate without the glue perhaps.  Pros use low-temp plastic, cut with a saw from sheets into strips.  They take a heat gun and bend it slowly around the shape intended, and air-staple it as they go.  The plastic holds a shape better (which gets to my next issue with the Melamine strip in a minute), and will work in deeper lip shapes or any thickness you need, because you cut it to fit.  This would be great if you can find some, and next time I build some of these, I'll absolutely search harder for it. 

2nd problem with the Melamine, is that it bends.  There's this slight bowing in my shape on the straight lines that make up the "teardop" type form.  This was noticeable when I built my grilles, because that shape was the original stencil exactly and it had no bow on the straight lines.  End result, the grille looks ever so slightly less exactly like the shape it is meant to match with.  Now, I may end up making two more grilles, with this exact bow shape built in to it to get it "just right".  I'm not really sure yet.

Another major mistake was the over-application of Bondo on the first round.  In truth, you should never use more than golf ball's size of filler at a time, in most situations.  I just got rushed and it was a huge time-killer.  The other applications were tiny and worked flawlessly. 

At some point, before I started this whole thing with these pillars, I should have found a plastic sealer product of some sort that helps attach the primer to the plastic.  In some places (not visible wrapped in vinyl but I know it happened so it bothers me), the high-build primer came right off, after I hit it with the upholstery spray glue.  It was a darn mess, because the primer stuck like crazy to the glue as expected, but the plastic and the primer separated as if they were never really together.  I cleaned the plastic pillars aggressively with isopropyl alcohol, sanded and "keyed" the pillar, and then cleaned it again...but it didn't work.  I would have tried acetone but I wasn't certain the acetone and the plastic would be happy together.  I should have tried to find a plastic sealing / etching product that locked into the plastic and created an initial biting layer for the primer underneath.  The Bondo Gold filler had some of this same problem in some areas, but not anywhere in the critical area of the bond I made, or its final shape. 

I wish I would have made the pillar shape a little larger, for a bigger midrange down the road some day.  There's a GR-Research speaker I saw recently, and I REALLY want to try it sometime.  Well, it ain't gonna fit these pillars, that's for sure.  This is more of a compromise thing and a future-planning thing you have to think about, when you build.  I didn't want to kill my vision in the corners of the pillars, in case some kid runs out in the street corner or something, and then suddenly because of the pillars I built, I couldn't see.  That would be a really bad thing, somewhat like getting rearended because your tail lights are blacked out.  It is a mod and you did it, and now someone gets hurt, etc etc.  That might be extreme and pointless to consider, but it was on my mind and effected my build's plans. 

I just barely over-stretched the vinyl on the passenger side.  I actually think a few more days of baking heat will pull the stretches out, but it is annoying.  The driver's side which was the first one, really just fell together and the vinyl laid down perfectly, with minor tugging and then lots of folding and cutting.  Well, the passenger side, it just didn't have the same ease in laying down and wanted to stretch like crazy all over the shape.  End result, there's tiny stress stretches at the very bottom of the shape, and apparently I'm the only one that can see them in my family but I bet you guys with eagle eyes see them in the passenger one.  Vinyl can be a really tough product to work with, and it never really lays down 100% completely flat, so be sure to use a good vinyl and use one with a nice aggressive texture, to hide the natural imperfections that come from using it.  As you can tell, the vinyl I chose is a 100% perfect match to the charcoal interior panels.  This definitely helps!

Oh yes, I made another critical mistake and that was cutting the pillar's little internal piece of material that rests inside with the speakers.  That is high-pile carpet and to get the shape exactly right, I actually cut it INSIDE the pillar.  I glued it in, and had to use an exacto knife to cut out the excess carpet.  BAD idea.  I must have been really tired when I thought this up, because...well the knife cut the vinyl too.  None of the cuts are outside of the pillar pod's little lip, but on the lip itself there's many little tiny slices.  I had tried to keep the knife far down in the pod lip, but it must have tracked up a few times and made some damage.  Luckily the speaker grilles completely hide this, but again... I KNOW it is there.  If I were doing this again, I'd just take the shape very similar to the grilles I made, and just cut it exactly and place it in. 


So, despite all the little boo-boos and learning mistakes, they sound fantastic and meet design goal criteria in all other ways.  I am definitely happy with the result and my next pillars will be that much better from the lessons learned by the mistakes I made.


Remember that factory pillars run about $80 or so, unless you can score them cheaper somehow.  There's no substitute for this type of custom work, if you want your vocals and high frequency instruments up on the dash and able to present a rock-solid sound stage, so it really is up to you as to how much you want quality sound.  Gotta get through it to get to it!  Or hire someone like me to get through it for you.  HA!  If anybody wanted something like this, I'd do it but I'd demand a grip of money for the time and frustration.  These were definitely a 10 out of 10 in difficulty level for me, and compare something like that wood speaker box with the many angled cuts in it that I did for Stefan's (Reidster's) build, that would be like 3 or 4 our of 10 in difficulty.  So this is nuts.


Well, the center channel is next.  Here's a teaser shot. 
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

BiGMaC

Lanson... Stellar looking job!  Bravo!  :thumb:

Your explanation of pitfalls is invaluable!... Still I may come over to vegas... see some shows and see what magic we can dream up for my SHO! :beer2:

•2013 Taurus SHO nonPP - All Ford factory options, 3BAR MAP, LMS v8 tune (mods for 3BAR, DPs, and T-stat), Paint & plastic correction, CQuart finest all exterior surfaces, limo black window tint,VLED Triton switchbacks, Daytime BrightLites switchback DRLs, full interior and exterior LED conversion, Lamin-X charcoal blackout tail lights and reflectors, PPE catted and coated downpipes, EBPP coated hotpipes with BoVs VTA, MDesign CAI
•2013 F250 CC Lariat 6.7EB Diesel -stock

SHOdded

This has been real "miniature" work compared to the box you built previously.  Working by hand with materials, techniques, and booboo-fixing all take the mind of a craftsman and the precision of a surgeon.  No wonder you chose such quality componentry to reside inside.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Lanson

Quote from: BiGMaC on April 15, 2014, 12:01:13 AM
Lanson... Stellar looking job!  Bravo!  :thumb:

Your explanation of pitfalls is invaluable!... Still I may come over to vegas... see some shows and see what magic we can dream up for my SHO! :beer2:

Thanks!

I'm down to help with the SHO, just need time w/ it.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

Quote from: SHOdded on April 15, 2014, 07:33:31 AM
This has been real "miniature" work compared to the box you built previously.  Working by hand with materials, techniques, and booboo-fixing all take the mind of a craftsman and the precision of a surgeon.  No wonder you chose such quality componentry to reside inside.

Yeah I swore up and down those little grilles were going to snap in half if I so much as looked at them funny, but they actually are really durable.  When I used the hole saw (Harbor Freight btw), I think the heat from the saw actually bonded the MDF better than normal. 

Funny thing about the components, especially with the pillars... they are CHEAP!  Seriously, Dayton RS speakers are a smoking deal.  The whole front stage (including 8" woofers in the door) will be about $200.  That's doors, pillars, and center.  That's the typical price of a mild component set.  I definitely recommend them, just cross them before their metal cone breakup starts so they stay clean. 
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

glock-coma

Are using the ms8 to cross them or a separate external xover 
2010 red candy metallic non PP 402B
AJPTURBO 2 BAR Tune Stock 14.1@100.3 / Tuned 12.83@107.7
K&N panel, RX OCC, Sp-534 @.30 Tint 50%F-35%R BOV bypass
1997 SHO silver frost (sold)
1990 SHO triple black 5-speed (saved my life)

Lanson

Quote from: glock-coma on April 15, 2014, 10:23:40 AM
Are using the ms8 to cross them or a separate external xover

Here's the setup, for clarity:

MS8 has 8 channels it can control.

1&2 - LF, RF pillar, crosses at 450 hz @ 24dB/oct highpass.  I have two runs of wire parallel on the outputs, one set goes directly to the midrange, one set goes to a 12dB/oct passive crossover that is designed to cross at 5000 hz with 4ohm.  The output of this crossover goes to the Dayton tweeter.  These are powered directly off the MS8's internal amp

3&4 - are the doors, they bandpass from 80 hz to 450 hz, both slopes are 24dB/oct.  These are powered off the 4ch amp, on channels 1 and 2.

5&6 - are the rear doors.  They are high-passed at 100hz, 24dB/oct.

7 - is the center, this is crossed at 150 hz @ 24dB/oct high-pass.  There is a parallel wiring going on here, just like the pillars.  One set of wires go to the mid, and one set goes through a 12dB/oct crossover, 5000 hz, 4 ohm to the tweeter.  This is powered off channel 3 of the 4ch amp.   

8 - is the sub, it is crossed from 80hz @ 24dB/oct and has a subsonic filter with a more shallow cross at 12dB/oct of 20hz.  This is run off the sub amp.



Changes down the line, will be a swap to power the pillars off the amp, and swap the center to the MS8.  Not a huge rush, as it sounds fine right now though.  Also, I may add additional crossover components to the mids, to low-pass them.  Just a work-in-progress.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

glock-coma

That's pretty sweet, I'm probably going to try and tackle something similar to this soon. Thx for the setup layout   
2010 red candy metallic non PP 402B
AJPTURBO 2 BAR Tune Stock 14.1@100.3 / Tuned 12.83@107.7
K&N panel, RX OCC, Sp-534 @.30 Tint 50%F-35%R BOV bypass
1997 SHO silver frost (sold)
1990 SHO triple black 5-speed (saved my life)

Lanson

Quote from: glock-coma on April 15, 2014, 12:13:58 PM
That's pretty sweet, I'm probably going to try and tackle something similar to this soon. Thx for the setup layout

Not a problem, just hit me up if you have any questions as you go.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

Just a minor update, the right pillar looks to be taking some heat from the sun, and sadly the vinyl feels like it is lifting right off the pillar.  I suspect the primer underneath has failed and it is stuck securely to the vinyl with the adhesive.  I'll need to peel off the vinyl, clean it up, and then try again probably this weekend.  Frustrating but fixable I think.

I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

I started with the center channel this afternoon.  I cut this piece out of 1/4" MDF, to fit the original shape.  Incredibly, I was able to use the two factory screws that attach the small stock speaker to the metal mount.  I carefully drilled and countersunk two screw holes in my piece here, and in fact it is screwed down in this pic.  The Dayton RS125-4 fits right over that, in a cutout.




This is what I came up for, as a total solution.  I match-cut a 1/2" piece of MDF, one that was 1/2" longer on the end that would be towards the engine compartment.  This extra space affords me just barely enough room to mount my tweeter.  This will have to be exposed in the final design, but the rest will be covered with a grille.  I really wanted a fully round grille in the center, which is infinitely easier to cut and form.  The tweeter is installed from behind which is how these ND20FB's are designed.  I had to make a relief routing shape to fit this properly back there.  I hope I can fully hide all that once the install is covered in vinyl, after sanding and more shaping. 

I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune