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Author Topic: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit  (Read 5462 times)

Offline TopherSho

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) Done For?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2018, 02:53:49 PM »
"The software would stop catalytic converters, particulate filters and other emissions controls from working." - 13 ABC News

 Not exactly how it works... 🤔😂
Journalism in general is not about reporting facts or truth anymore and it is more about headlines and being "1st to print", facts be damned.

You are completely correct, the programmer does not stop them from functioning, but it allows them to be removed, which is the same thing right?<sarc>.  What the article should have said is that "The software allows the disabling of sensors which allow the removal of cats, filters, etc, etc"

True, there will be an update pushed out, but with already having it in hand, I should be able to just not update, versus if I bought one a month from now I'm sure it would already be updated

Good thing I picked up a BDX already I guess. Hopefully there won't be any issues going forward for those of us with the tuners already.

There will be, part of the settlement is that Derive will update existing hand held devices so they cannot be used to disable epa mandated components.

Aka... it will get a firmware update...


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Yes and no.  Not updating your SCT will work if you never need anything further done, in which case having the tuner still is of little use. 

The problem will come if you continue to tune after the "fix" firmware is pushed out, or in the future need a tune updated.  The tuners will be required to be using the newer firmware's and that will mean to get retuned you will also have to upgrade to runt he new tune they send you.  People have run into this with some of the tuning Co we all love here, were a firmware revision "broke" a tune and the vehicle owner had to reflash car to stock tune, update SCT firmware, then upload the new tune to car.  POOF there goes your catless DP tune you have had for the last 3 years...

Yeah this is tough.  Those with the tuning suit can opt to not update the tuning suite but then there out of tuning new cars.  Or having two laptops/desktops with old software and new software that is compliant.

Like for Brad,  He *could* keep the *current* SCT Advantage III software and dongle on laptop-a.  This would allow for current and older tuning jobs with full access.  On machine-b the new restricted software.  Its a pain but doable.

What I am curious about is this,  how many 'full tune+disable' jobs are done versus light mods jobs.  I have cats and os's,  So i am 'ok' ...i think.. but how many jobs does Brad do that involve disabling EPA mandated thingies? If it is a 2:10 ratio or something like that he can keep working at a profit and for fun but be able to do deep projects on OEM cars. 

/spitballing done/


2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline Gray Brick

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2018, 03:01:45 PM »
So when do the updates start where we are limited on the tune options?

If they sold cat converters cheaper there would be more compliant vehicles.
There should be a government rebate or program for this.
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Offline lamrith

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) Done For?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2018, 03:03:22 PM »
"The software would stop catalytic converters, particulate filters and other emissions controls from working." - 13 ABC News

 Not exactly how it works... 🤔😂
Journalism in general is not about reporting facts or truth anymore and it is more about headlines and being "1st to print", facts be damned.

You are completely correct, the programmer does not stop them from functioning, but it allows them to be removed, which is the same thing right?<sarc>.  What the article should have said is that "The software allows the disabling of sensors which allow the removal of cats, filters, etc, etc"

True, there will be an update pushed out, but with already having it in hand, I should be able to just not update, versus if I bought one a month from now I'm sure it would already be updated

Good thing I picked up a BDX already I guess. Hopefully there won't be any issues going forward for those of us with the tuners already.

There will be, part of the settlement is that Derive will update existing hand held devices so they cannot be used to disable epa mandated components.

Aka... it will get a firmware update...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes and no.  Not updating your SCT will work if you never need anything further done, in which case having the tuner still is of little use. 

The problem will come if you continue to tune after the "fix" firmware is pushed out, or in the future need a tune updated.  The tuners will be required to be using the newer firmware's and that will mean to get retuned you will also have to upgrade to runt he new tune they send you.  People have run into this with some of the tuning Co we all love here, were a firmware revision "broke" a tune and the vehicle owner had to reflash car to stock tune, update SCT firmware, then upload the new tune to car.  POOF there goes your catless DP tune you have had for the last 3 years...

Yeah this is tough.  Those with the tuning suit can opt to not update the tuning suite but then there out of tuning new cars.  Or having two laptops/desktops with old software and new software that is compliant.

Like for Brad,  He *could* keep the *current* SCT Advantage III software and dongle on laptop-a.  This would allow for current and older tuning jobs with full access.  On machine-b the new restricted software.  Its a pain but doable.

What I am curious about is this,  how many 'full tune+disable' jobs are done versus light mods jobs.  I have cats and os's,  So i am 'ok' ...i think.. but how many jobs does Brad do that involve disabling EPA mandated thingies? If it is a 2:10 ratio or something like that he can keep working at a profit and for fun but be able to do deep projects on OEM cars. 

/spitballing done/
Yeah the possibility is their to do just that.  However I would think the risk is far to great.  I do not see him or any tuner doing that.  I seem to recall a year ago or so one of the tuners was directly approached by EPA and told cease and desist removing O2's in tunes.  I know I would never risk the penalties/downside repurcussions to a business of doing it.
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago.

Offline StealBlueSHO

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 03:05:02 PM »
It will all depend on how the lawsuit goes... could be years would be my guess... depends on how hard Derive wants to fight it.


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Offline TopherSho

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 03:11:59 PM »
yeah,  guess it will come down to the number of jobs done without disabling devices versus doing jobs that needed os/cat disabling and if there is still enough profit.   

This gets a bit sketchy because now we will have underground tuners.. that can never any good with the hack jobs that people do..
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
Best of 12.61 no DA correction

Offline TopherSho

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2018, 03:19:12 PM »
It will all depend on how the lawsuit goes... could be years would be my guess... depends on how hard Derive wants to fight it.


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Did I read it wrong,  I thought the announcement was them agreeing to settle?  So legal wrangling appears done...
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
Best of 12.61 no DA correction

Offline StealBlueSHO

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2018, 03:19:46 PM »
It will all depend on how the lawsuit goes... could be years would be my guess... depends on how hard Derive wants to fight it.


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Did I read it wrong,  I thought the announcement was them agreeing to settle?  So legal wrangling appears done...

Huh... I could have misread it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Taurus SHO Performance Pack, Gearhead Custom Tunes, Gearhead Gen3 Turbos, Gearhead Intercooler, Gearhead 170 Tstat, EPP Dual Feed Intake, EPP Hot Pipes, EPP Ceramic Coated Catted Downpipes, Corsa Exhaust, XDI-35 Fuel Pump, DW In-Tank Fuel Pump, Fuel-It Bluetooth Ethanol Analyzer, HR Lowering Springs, AD Lower Trans Mounts, 3Bar MAP, SP-542 Plugs, Custom SHO Puddle Lights, Custom Gearhead emblem overlays. Best time currently is 11.922 @ 115mph full weight, stock wheels, stock tires... just like it came off the show room floor.

Offline TopherSho

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 03:21:49 PM »
Quote
"Under the terms of the settlement, Derive must stop introducing new noncompliant tuners into commerce and retrofit existing tuners so that they comply with the Clean Air Act. All new and existing tuners offered for sale must have a reasonable basis demonstrating that the use of the products will not adversely affect vehicle emissions. Besides tuners, Derive must limit access to key emission control parameters in their custom tuning software and create a customer verification program for users of the custom tuning software, which includes training about vehicle functions, emission controls, and the Clean Air Act requirements."

Am I crazy ? ^

2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline Vortech347

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2018, 06:11:17 PM »
Devils advocate here...

It's always been illegal to remove cats and emission devices from registered vehicles driven on the street.  The gov is just doing what it can to further enforce the law and get rid of enablers to do so.  So try not to get too mad about being called out.

The pro racer pack already has different levels for end users.  Advantage 3 on my Terminator I can't control anything emissions wise unless I have my main tuner send me a value file, or I call SCT and get full dealer access, in which you have to agree to their waiver that it's a race car and not registered on the street.  As far as I know what has been posted as the "settlement" is already in play.

This will also increase liability to your custom tuners to alter tunes for non-emission compliance if it's a street car.  It's only a matter of time before more resources are utilized to crack down on this stuff.

This mostly affects diesel crowd.  SCT was offering can tunes that were allowing bypassing a ton of stuff. 
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2018, 09:24:44 PM »
I think everyone needs to take a breath. Vortech made some good points. And I suspected this cropped up from somethings in the past and particularly Diesel stuff and preloaded tunes.


I do not expect things to change much. And I can't stress this enough, not updating the devices WILL cause more problems and will make it impossible for any tech support to happen. That is and will always be the first order of business for resolution to hardware issues.


I think speculation is taking this in the complete wrong direction.


Here is a memo that comes from the SOURCE with FACTS. It made me feel better and I think it will do the same for you. Also I will include a press release link.

https://www.newswire.com/news/derive-systems-enters-agreement-with-epa-to-enhance-industry-practices-20652930?utm_campaign=News&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=66201742&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9diZQLGVD1rBOcfNRuJ8fCrxo9-ncKFCXKatSTxX4Mc5hwi12BPCk7xe7sCFJYn8k-jV78GXjEb--pHbbsFVaMEdcEcobyEDiLvfMpwb6vNPXGrJo&_hsmi=66201742

Today, Derive Systems announces reaching an agreement with EPA to establish and comply with automotive aftermarket regulations.
The EPA agreement is very positive for our business. With this agreement in place, Derive has established itself as the only federally-compliant player in the tuning industry. Every company in the aftermarket will be held to the same standard as Derive.
Under the agreement, we will make investments to demonstrate environmental leadership in the automotive aftermarket industry.These include: additional emissions tests of our preloaded calibrations on new and past model year applications, developing additional training and certification programs for our custom tuning dealers, continuing to make and sell emissions compliant devices, and further investing in our policy compliance initiatives.
Please take note that:
Every product we sell today is legal. We are permitted to, and will continue selling, our existing tuners and Advantage software.
There is no need for resellers or consumers to return or swap out anything on shelves today, nor is a recall required.
For users of our Advantage custom tuning software, we are forming our certification and training program now, and will share those details directly with you once we’re finished.
Derive Systems, SCT, and Bully Dog remain leaders in the automotive aftermarket and will continue to provide the most advanced technology to our enthusiast consumers, dealers, and resellers.
Read our press release here.
Q: Why did Derive settle?
A: Collaborating with EPA on a settlement allows us to provide market-leading tuners and creates certainty for our customers.
Customers continue to expect innovation and results, but no customer wants to buy regulatory uncertainty or an EPA enforcement action.
Unlike our competitors, we have a clear path forward for our products to enter and thrive in the market with EPA’s approval.
Q: Why is Derive paying a penalty?
A: Derive was formed only a few years ago from the purchases of two tuning companies, SCT and Bully Dog.
Our new company’s management discovered legacy compliance issues with some Bully Dog products that were hidden during the transaction.
We expect this settlement to wipe the slate clean with EPA on these legacy issues.
We will continue to pursue the former owners of Bully Dog and others who committed fraud and other wrongdoing as part of our purchase.
Q: Did Derive sell defeat devices?
A: No, Derive did not sell defeat devices.
Derive bought Bully Dog and SCT only a few years ago. After the transaction, we discovered legacy compliance issues, particularly on the Bully Dog side. We continue to pursue claims arising from that transaction.
In the meantime, Derive entered into this agreement to provide a clear and certain path to continue selling tuners and custom software in partnership with EPA.
Q: How did EPA come up with the 363,000 figure for tuner sales?
A: That question is best put to EPA. Our focus is on the fact that the settlement provides a clear path to continue selling our tuner and custom tuning software products and to continue to introduce those products to market. No other company has this kind of partnership with EPA, which allows to continue providing market-leading performance tuners and custom software, while avoiding regulatory and enforcement uncertainty for our customers.
Q: The settlement states that the penalty is based on Derive’s financial condition [or a limited ability to pay]. Is the company in financial trouble?
A: No, the settlement reflects the fact that Derive is committing a substantial amount to building out its partnership with EPA in this settlement.
Q: Does the settlement require Derive to recall any tuners from its customers or stop selling any tuners?
A: No, it does not. Unlike past EPA tuning settlements, there are no recall terms in the settlement for our products in the market. We are required to test tuners going forward. If the testing reveals issues, we will deal with those issues in an appropriate manner, in consultation with EPA.
Q: Does the settlement require Derive to stop selling custom software?
A: No, it does not. Our settlement partnership with EPA requires us to provide customer training and certification that encourages the legitimate use of our custom tuning software.
Q: Will the settlement require Derive to change its marketing practices or reseller agreements for tuners?
A: From a customer perspective, there will be little change. Derive was not marketing any illegitimate uses of its products before the settlement. And we already have a vigorous compliance program to avoid customer abuse of our products. The settlement memorializes what are already industry best practices.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:28:39 PM by AJP turbo »
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Offline lamrith

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 09:26:33 PM »
Saw this posted on "xxx's group on FB"  It answers many of the questions we have had..  I could not dig up the FAQ portion of this on the website myself, but I am not a Derive customer so...

DOH AJP beat me to it!! 
Link to the publicly available BLOG post: http://www.derivesystems.com/derive-systems-enters-agreement-with-epa-to-enhance-industry-practices
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:28:25 PM by lamrith »
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago.

Offline 4sfed

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2018, 09:53:04 PM »
Okay...so maybe this is a good time to verify the update process in case our device gets an update from SCT.

Should we put our car back to stock before updating our SCT device?  Is an updated tune required?

This is more a stream of consciousness, so I apologize if this is posted somewhere already.
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Offline AJP turbo

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2018, 10:06:22 PM »
Okay...so maybe this is a good time to verify the update process in case our device gets an update from SCT.

Should we put our car back to stock before updating our SCT device?  Is an updated tune required?

This is more a stream of consciousness, so I apologize if this is posted somewhere already.

Read the above. Updated tune not required. You will always need to keep your tune updated.  ANd you are prompted by the device updater program to return to stock when updating the device. Any car can be flashed to stock regardless of modification. You don't have to start the car after it has been returned to stock....Simply return to stock flash then update the device then reflash custom tune.
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
      
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Offline Markboni55

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 12:13:00 AM »
Since I am a new member and just starting buying aftermarket parts for my 13 MKS should I buy a SCT X4 now or wait? I would presume now since who knows what restrictions will be in place. Thoughts?

Offline SHOdded

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Re: DERIVE(SCT) EPA Lawsuit
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 05:42:00 AM »
I think you should be ok to wait.  Get a feel from what your tuner has to say, but I think things are simply moving in the direction they have been all this time.  Plenty of power to be had without bypassing emissions.  And if you tune, you should make an effort to keep the vehicle in tiptop shape powertrain wise anyway.  If you do that, chances of actual emissions related issues arising (other than "normal" O2 sensor replacement) should be quite slim.
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If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

 

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