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Lanson's 2013 Flex - Extreme SQ audio (re)build

Started by Lanson, April 10, 2014, 01:49:51 PM

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Lanson

Quote from: bpd1151 on May 04, 2014, 11:27:08 AM
I too, never realized there was so much involved in a build such as this. Particularly noting connections and what not.

Impressive to say the least! :ok:

Do you plan on competing in audio competitions at some point, after it's completion?

That's a great question.  I would say that I could comfortably enter in a SQ competition, and place well, but it wasn't built to compete.  However there is a flip-side, and that is that I do take on other builds for friends, family, friends of family, and referrals of those people.  When they ask what their car would look like, I can point them to my car and say, something like that.  That usually seals the deal.  LOL.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Woody

Outstanding, Lanson.  Wish I lived closer to you and had a pile of money laying around to have you do my car!  Actually I would also love to take on a project like this, but I don't have the time.  Love the attention to detail and extensive pictures you are sharing.  Great work.

Lanson

Ok, update for the weekend, I woke up in not much better shape than yesterday, so again woodworking was out and I just decided to finish up the interior and get it just right. 

There's not many pics here, mainly because the last round of shots you saw told the whole story.  But I did rearrange the processor and distribution block on the driver's side, and I think it looks a lot better overall.  I also have much easier access to the critical "microphone" port to do calibration/tuning for the MS8, so that's a plus. 

Here's the results, pardon the tight quarters and meh shots here, but essentially that's what you get when you install your gear under the seats....they pretty much just disappear.





This is with the seat all the way forward



A little anti-climatic, I know.


But fear not, at some point new carnage from the attempt at installing 8" midbass in the doors will result soon.  Maybe next weekend if I'm lucky.

In case you were wondering, all this interior work had a serious payoff.  With this teardown and rebuild, I was able to change the wiring so the 4ch amp now powers the pillars and the doors, whereas the MS8 powers the center, and the rears.  This change gives the pillars WAY more power and they use it well.

The center is a pretty efficient setup compared with the pillars, just due to the cone area and the speaker's design.  Yes, they are all from the Dayton RS family of speakers, but they have different efficiencies.

The crossovers all do their job and do it well.  Each speaker is responding properly and playing the frequencies intended.  The stage is more anchored, more realistic, and the speakers "disappear" from the system because they are no longer playing outside of their intended, optimal ranges where distortion is least.  In effect, they just reproduce the sound stage as they are supposed to. 

I must say, the XT60 connectors were a good choice, and I'll be using them again and again in the future.  I had no problems soldering them on, other than it all being a little tedious and I needed to use my "helping hands" tool (a jig with needle clamps and a simple adjustable armature.)  Really good product and they made installing the crossovers into the system a breeze. 

Right now, the system is by far the best sounding car I've built.  Is it best sounding I've heard?  No but I haven't put $3000 worth of speakers in the front stage, either.  In fact, I haven't even put 1/10th of that.  Pretty amazing for the money I have spent, but I do admit if time is money then this build would be worth a lot.

Auditions are always welcome!
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

dalum

Everything looks pretty good so far.  Am I just seeing things or is the driver's head > 90deg off axis of the left tweeter?
2013 Non-PP SHO

Lanson

Quote from: dalum on May 05, 2014, 11:24:04 AM
Everything looks pretty good so far.  Am I just seeing things or is the driver's head > 90deg off axis of the left tweeter?

This is close to correct, maybe 65-75 degrees I would guess.  This off-axis performance has been calculated into the design however.

About "beaming", or on-axis vs. off-axis response characteristics, learned from a guy much smarter than me.
One great thing I learned early on from Andy Wehmeyer (former Harman guy) from the audio forums is the truth about speaker beaming.  Below beaming a speaker operates like a floodlight, not a spotlight.  So acoustically, off-axis performance is great up to beaming frequency.  It isn't a hard cut-off, but the shift does occur aggressively when heavily off-axis, like the left pillar is to the driver.

The trick is to cross the tweeter (or any speaker really) below beaming frequency, if off-axis performance is the intended goal.  To achieve a full 20kHz top end, I elected to use a 3/4" tweeter, which will begin to beam right about 20k.  This is also the case of the pillar mid which crosses right at 5200Hz for the same reason.  Again another reason the mid crosses at ~400hz (still playing around with that cross point) and interacts with the door speakers there, because those drivers will beam around 2k or thereabouts, assuming an approximately 8" driver.  In fact, the only speaker that beams on my system is, purposely, the center channel mid.  That 5" driver begins to beam before the tweeter crossover point, but this speaker is dead-center of the dash and fires directly to the windshield, so the combined effect is still proper acoustics (when EQ'd and processed properly by the MS8.) 

Playing a speaker below beaming is the key to off-axis performance.  This is a big reason I decided to go with the complexity of a pillar two-way + door midbass solution.  Typical performance two-way systems are certainly cheaper and easier to work with, but beaming occurs before the ideal cross point in larger drivers.  In the case of a 5x7 stock speaker, the speaker beams around ~2700hz one direction and about 1900hz in the other.  If the speaker was rotated 90 degrees in the door so the "short" side was upright and the "long" side was side to side, beaming would be much less of an issue than it is now.  HOWEVER, that's not the case in the stock config.  So what we have is a huge hole in the ~2000 - 3000hz range that the stock system, an aftermarket 5x7 system, or any system that uses a typical woofer in the door, and tweeter in the pillar component setup.  To compensate, there's an extra tweeter in the door, but now we're running into interference patterns and all sorts of acoustic issues with the tweeters in the door, and tweeters in the pillars playing the same frequencies, same time.  To be short, going with a 3-way setup like I have was the ONLY way to get an ideal sound stage, IMHO in this car.

If you have a 6.5" driver in the door instead, the beam frequency is approx 2100hz assuming actual 6.5".  So you would need a LOW playing tweeter to mate in ideal circumstances. 


There's more to it than beaming but I decided that this would be a primary focus of my build, and the rest was stuff that naturally placed into that.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

bigmoneycloser

Have you found a need for sound deadening in the flex?
Doors, floors anything?
Thx
2014 Explorer Sport 401A
22x10.5 Vossen CVT- powder coated Matte Graphite
Pirelli Scorpion Zero Asimmetrico 285/35/22
H & R lowering springs/LMS 93 high boost/AirAid CAI/170* thermostat/3 Bar Map Sensor/Full LED interior /HID head and fog lights/weather tech digital floor mats/SharkFin antena/custom Billet foot pedals/Wilwood big brake kit/ LMS-Corsa CatBack Exhaust/LMS Catted Downpipes

Lanson

Quote from: bigmoneycloser on May 05, 2014, 03:40:35 PM
Have you found a need for sound deadening in the flex?
Doors, floors anything?
Thx

Yes indeed, deadening/sealing is key.  I preach this often on all the forums, and in fact if you do NOTHING else to a system deadening/sealing would be a great improvement (audio and noise wise, not performance wise).  So the Flex is currently equipped with deadening from RAAM Audio and also a brand I wanted to try out, GT Mat.  I bought their Onyx and Quadro product to try.  Overall, not as good as RAAM for the money but I had to see that for myself. 

The trunk area is completely covered in Quadro, as are the door skins inner and outer.  Quadro is a product that has two layers of butyl and foil, and foam right on top as a decoupler and minor barrier.  I got some pics here and there, let me dig up what I have (some of these might be in my other build log):




With this one, I knew I was tearing into the doors again soon so I didn't take many pics this round.


Not long ago I helped a forum member build a nice system in their Flex.  I would propose that the deadening/sealing we did could be considered IDEAL.  Here are some pics of that in-progress:





Note the foam around the speaker opening









Foam added around the speaker, couples to the door panel foam and keeps the speaker output from bouncing around in the plastic door.







I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

Needless to say, those doors were like vaults to operate, and sounded as such.  Also, those Image Dynamics 5x7's are AMAZING in a well-deadened/sealed door like that. 


I actually bought more deadener to finish up my doors when I get in there, and I'll try to detail my work as I go too.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

SwampRat

Ideally the sound deadening material is an acoustical necessity . My experience with the old school dyna mat is that it worked well but for a full tilt install it adds a LOT of weight . Is the newer stuff any better ?
2013 SHO  ....  not mine anymore

2021 Edge ST

Lanson

Quote from: SwampRat on May 05, 2014, 05:50:58 PM
Ideally the sound deadening material is an acoustical necessity . My experience with the old school dyna mat is that it worked well but for a full tilt install it adds a LOT of weight . Is the newer stuff any better ?
Yes, what has been observed in the industry of acoustic deadening has been a shift from asphalt-based products to butyl-based.  Asphalt-based products relied almost completely on mass-loading to lower the resonant frequency of the vibration energy.  As a result, it was quite heavy and I did build many systems with Dynamat Original.  Also, ther was RAAMmat original which was also asphalt-based.  A damn mess was virtually guaranteed, and asphalt products smell. 

A shift to butyl-based products (including Dynamat Xtreme, a great product but very expensive per sq. foot) ensued.  Now butyl can mass-load, but it has a unique property inherent of visco-elastic materials.  Quite literally, butyl (and other visco-elastic stuff) can convert vibration energy into heat.  They do this with extreme inefficiency so the heat does not actually matter, but the vibration reduction does.  A constraining layer like foil is used as well.  Serves as part barrier, part stiffener, etc., basically a great sympathetic addition to a visco-elastic material. 

http://sounddeadenershowdown.com/ has some great educational points of view on the topic.  Don (owner of that site) is well known on forums for being a good conversationalist with this topic, so by all means email him if you need gritty details.  He points our 4 major things.  Kill panel noise and resonance, Block air borne sound,     "Decouple objects that would otherwise transmit vibration or make noise themselves by making intermittent contact (rattles)", Absorb. 

Quite frankly, I agree.  His products are also great.  I like RAAMmat better, but I have used Don's stuff before and it is a good way to go too. 
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Woody

Interesting discussion that parallels talk from avs forums concerning home theaters. I built a home theater that is decoupled from the rest of the house and has 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with a sound deadening glue between the layers. The noise floor in that room is crazy!  You are convincing me more and more that I need to find time and money to do this to my car.

dalum

I didn't realize there was that much to off axis response and "beaming".  I just knew off axis generally sucked and some speakers had better responses at it then others.  Guess I have some reading to do.
2013 Non-PP SHO

Lanson

Quote from: Woody on May 05, 2014, 07:45:52 PM
Interesting discussion that parallels talk from avs forums concerning home theaters. I built a home theater that is decoupled from the rest of the house and has 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with a sound deadening glue between the layers. The noise floor in that room is crazy!  You are convincing me more and more that I need to find time and money to do this to my car.
IMO just buy a box of deadener and Ensolite from Raamaudio (or a good product of equivalent or better quality if there is one) and have it at the ready.  Get a couple of rollers (wood or rubber), and have some good lightweight mechanic gloves on hand so you can lay deadener down and not cut yourself up like an emo kid.  Just have it on tap, so when an hour or two of free time pops up, you can run out and begin your work.  One panel at a time, one step at a time.  Just have everything you need so the opportunity can present it self.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

Oh, and I retuned/calibrated again, now that I'm pleased with the frequency response of the front pillars and center.  Here's the new calibration for reference:

Ch1 and 2, pillars high pass - 400hz @ 4th order - powered by amp 75W per channel
Ch3 and 4, doors bandpass - 80hz - 400hz @ 4th order - powered by amp 75W per channel
Ch5 and 6, rear doors high pass - 120hz @ 4th order - powered off MS8 20W per channel
Ch7 center, high pass 100hz @ 4th order - powered off MS8 20W
Ch8 sub, low pass 80hz @ 4th order, powered off sub amp 600W - infrasonic filter set at 20hz, 1st order slope only.

These settings are a more conservative setup than I've played with, and I find that even at really, really loud volumes, the whole system stays completely composed and coherent, up to the point where rattles (like mirrors and glass) become a real problem.  I still have to get those 8's in the door, but right now if I had to leave it exactly as-is, I wouldn't be ashamed of the results!


For anybody thinking of following my path, DO IT!  Find a pair of pillars on eBay or in the salvage yards, and get to work.  Acoustically, I think I'm getting a really special sound out of the Flex with this setup.  Maybe instead of going with Dayton RS75's in the pillar, consider the RS100 if you can fit it, or the GR Research LGK 1.0 speaker, which is something I really want to try. 


More to come, probably this weekend if all goes well.
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune

Lanson

Quote from: dalum on May 05, 2014, 08:04:55 PM
I didn't realize there was that much to off axis response and "beaming".  I just knew off axis generally sucked and some speakers had better responses at it then others.  Guess I have some reading to do.

See if you can find posts by this man here, this a link to all posts by Andy W. from DIYMA's forum  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=8270087
I don't have an EB but I am an avid modder and happy to help the community and learn/grow.  Pretty good with audio and wheels, my build and discussion threads are here in the forum.  2013 Flex AWD N/A

Audio:  Dayton Reference home speakers in front stage, incl. 2-way passive custom pillars 2.5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 2-way passive custom center channel 5" mid, 3/4" tweet, 8" midbass in doors, Vibe UK amps, JBL MS8 processor, Optima Yellow-top custom-wired, Exile subs in spare tire well

Mods: H&R, K&N, 22x9 & 22x10 3 piece forged wheels 265/35-22 Toyos, SCTX4 w/ 91 oct. Torrie tune