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Knock Sensor readings

Started by Scott13SHO, March 31, 2014, 08:44:39 AM

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Brucelinc

I look forward to the answer.  I have seen both pluses and minuses on my gauge but both are rare and only present for a second or so.  They appear to be fractional, too - presumably less than 1 degree.  Mostly the gauge just shows 0.00.

As Darrell Waltrip once said, "I don't watch the gauges.  I will just run the bi*ch until it blows up, anyway."

crash712us

I feel that much of whats said is speculation, and I will research more in depth. As I do believe I have how ignition timing is used on these cars. However seeing timing lessen under low load situations make perfect since, just like old vacuum advance systems would do. But I do recall reading something saying in certain situation timing is retarded.

2011 tuxedo black non pp, LMS stage 5, Corsa cat back, LMS down pipes, Airaid, Alky control meth injection, Megan Racing coil overs, EBC rotor&pads, Mobsteel grill, 2013 trans cooler. 403whp 417wtq 12.25 @ 110

Brucelinc

I noticed on the Aeroforce forum that Scott's question still had not been answered.  I PM'ed Todd at Aeroforce gauges:  Here is his response:

Positive is actual knock being detected, and timing is taken away.  Negative is timing added due to lack of knock.

Larrylu


Quote from: Brucelinc on April 07, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
I noticed on the Aeroforce forum that Scott's question still had not been answered.  I PM'ed Todd at Aeroforce gauges:  Here is his response:

Positive is actual knock being detected, and timing is taken away.  Negative is timing added due to lack of knock.
Simple straight answer and even better I like the logic so I have a great shot at remembering this!
2010 Loaded, Non PP, Steel Blue Metallic, Livernois Stage 4+, Blacked out grill, Nexus 7 Tablet running Torque Pro

glock-coma

Is this just for the aeroforce gauge? Or is it the same for torque?
2010 red candy metallic non PP 402B
AJPTURBO 2 BAR Tune Stock 14.1@100.3 / Tuned 12.83@107.7
K&N panel, RX OCC, Sp-534 @.30 Tint 50%F-35%R BOV bypass
1997 SHO silver frost (sold)
1990 SHO triple black 5-speed (saved my life)

dalum

Quote from: Brucelinc on April 07, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
I noticed on the Aeroforce forum that Scott's question still had not been answered.  I PM'ed Todd at Aeroforce gauges:  Here is his response:

Positive is actual knock being detected, and timing is taken away.  Negative is timing added due to lack of knock.

I may be mistaken but that makes zero sense to me from a tuning perspective.  Usually there is a commanded timing formulated by a table of other sensor values (throttle position, load, IAT, ...).  A car targets this timing as max/ideal for that situation and would pull timing from there if it detects knock. Its entirely possible this car does something crazy but I would have a better time believing they screwed something up in a formula.

Generally knock condition can be logged/displayed in 2 very different ways.
1: A number going from zero (no knock) to a positive number increasing with the frequency of the knock.  This shows the actual knocks counts per time increment.
2: A number going from zero to positive or zero to negative (but never going through zero) showing how much timing is being pulled because of knock.  This shows what the ecm is doing BECAUSE of knock but not the actual knock.

I really can't imagine an ecm just piling on the timing until it knocks.  Increasing the target timing advance is something that's done when tuning to increase performance.

I also can't imagine how this read-out would flow from say -15 to 0 to +15.  The engine starts at -15 adding all the timing it can but knock is detected so it instantly jumps to a positive number that keeps increasing the more knock there is?  The engine starts at 0 and keeps going negative until knock is detected and jumps back to an increasing positive number?

The only way I can see this functioning is if its 2 gauges being displayed at the same time, timing advance and knock retard.  But if that's the case their explanation of the positive and negative values should be backwards.  You would really have to log / watch this gauge at the same time as the timing gauge while at full throttle to see whats going on.  You would see actual timing advancing to targeted timing until it detects knock and removes some timing.  At that time you'd have to see what this gauge is doing.

...or I just need to goto bed  :baby:
2013 Non-PP SHO

Brucelinc

Dalum, I am also a bit puzzled by this.  Further, I have NO IDEA if torque works the same way.

The aeroforce gauge will show ignition advance.  As you would expect, there is a value at idle (degrees above TDC) and as you raise the RPM, it grows - just like the old centrifugal and vacuum advance in a distributor.  Punch the gas and value drops - again just like it would in a distributor when vacuum is taken away.

The knock retard is showing something else and I am not even sure the value has anything to do with degrees of timing advance or retard.  In spite of Todd's response, on the few occasions that I see a negative number, it has been in a "lugging" condition - a time when I would expect the possiblity of pinging and timing being pulled.

Todd (forcefedjunkie), if you can jump in here or if anyone else can clarify, please do so.

glock-coma

I get the same - reading in torque when "lugging" in 6th gear.
2010 red candy metallic non PP 402B
AJPTURBO 2 BAR Tune Stock 14.1@100.3 / Tuned 12.83@107.7
K&N panel, RX OCC, Sp-534 @.30 Tint 50%F-35%R BOV bypass
1997 SHO silver frost (sold)
1990 SHO triple black 5-speed (saved my life)

pejohnson

I've been watching my readings the last few days on Torque Pro.  Just as a point of reference, my car is stock.  I am primarily at 0 and my typical ranges are between 2.0 and -1.5.  I'm using the custom PID with the equation of Signed(A)/4 outlined in another thread. 
13 Platinum White, PP, 402A, Moonroof, Multi-contour seats, and Navigation.  MODS - LMS 93 octane 3bar tune, 160 LMS thermostat, Airaid CAI, 15% tint, interior LED upgrade, LED puddle lights, Nurburgring 20" Gloss Black Powercoated Rims, H&R springs, Corsa catback exhaust, LMS catted downpipes

Best time 1/4 mile 12.588 sec @ 109.44 mph

ecoboostsho

Using Torque I see negative numbers all the time with very light throttle and little load which leads me to believe it may be adding timing...I've done some testing when stock and I hardly EVER see positive numbers using Torque...if I'm tuned I definitely see a positive number way more often under lugging conditions and occasionally a positive blip during full throttle.  This leads me to believe it is acting just like the Aeroforce gauge setup.  Confusing - yes...do I know 100% that is what it is doing...No.  I have also tested it with Forscan and unfortunately I can't compare them side by side but the conditions that create knock in Torque (positive numbers) also seem to result in knock in Forscan.  Not conclusive proof but at least it lines up with the observations.

FWIW Aeroforce should have access to all the PIDs, formula's, etc...from Ford and they would certainly know definitively how their gauges work.  Torque is of course a bit more mysterious since we are guessing to a degree.
2013 White SHO w/PP, Gearhead Tuned, 3 Bar, 160T, Plugs...Mess with the Bull and you'll get the Horn. :)
Previous 2011 Tuxedo Black SHO w/PP - 12.89 1/4 Mile

dalum

Someone go start their car and short the wires that were rubbing bare on metal going to the knock sensor briefly and fast. Watch the gauge and see what it says :)


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2013 Non-PP SHO

dalum

#26
Quote from: ecoboostsho on April 08, 2014, 09:25:17 AM
Using Torque I see negative numbers all the time with very light throttle and little load which leads me to believe it may be adding timing...I've done some testing when stock and I hardly EVER see positive numbers using Torque...if I'm tuned I definitely see a positive number way more often under lugging conditions and occasionally a positive blip during full throttle. 



That makes sense. The performance tunes are more aggressive then stock tuning.  I think some false knock is pretty common. Knock is really important to monitor on say a super charged engine. People would easily throw on a smaller pulley without supporting mods and have all kinds of problems.  The GTP Grand Prix was tuned rich from the factory and I was told they were using the extra fuel to help cool down temps.

Since these cars doesn't even recommend higher octane fuels in the manual there should be a pretty big safe margin before pre ignition stock.


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2013 Non-PP SHO

Scott13SHO

Yeah they just posted the answer on Tuesday...I've been busy the past couple days...
Ruby Red 2013 Ford Taurus SHO with Performance Package,Airaid CAI, MGP Red Caliper covers, LMS 93 Tune, Custom A-pillar Gauge pod with Aeroforce Interceptor Gauges, LED Interior and Exterior lights

Larrylu

Update. I've been running a stock tune for the last month or so for warranty issues so to sum up I have noted the following readings. Plus 1 stock, Plus 2 with 4+ (2BAR), Plus 7 with 4X (3BAR). I just went back to a tune and decided to try the 4+ (3BAR) as it was the only one I have no KR numbers on so for the next several days I will be monitoring my KR closely. All of my plus KR numbers have been recorded as best as I've been able to notice during feather foot driving. Not WOT, lugging, or WOT lift off. I hope that comparing the 2BAR and 3BAR versions of 4+ I'll learn something. I have double checked the wires from the left side sensor for chafing and found that they were not rubbing, but they had moved closer than when I had zipped them back a couple of years ago, so I gave them an additional spacing. I don't think that is the source of my plus 7. I looked on the right side of the block and found a sensor under the intake but the wiring did not look like any chafing was probable and I'm not sure if that was a KR sensor or how many KR sensors we have in all.
2010 Loaded, Non PP, Steel Blue Metallic, Livernois Stage 4+, Blacked out grill, Nexus 7 Tablet running Torque Pro

ShoBoat

Interesting, have you spoken to LMS regarding the KR readings?


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2012 Pearl White CTS-V Stock
2016 Fusion Titanium 2.0 EB Stock
2013 SHO Black on Black (Gone) PP, Unleashed Custom Tune, 170 TStat, SP534 Plugs, 3 Bar, Airaid Intake, PPE catted downpipes, Corsa Cat-back, H&R Springs. Focal 165KR Front Stage,2 JL W6 10 with Focal 800.1. 12.62 @ 110 mph.