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Author Topic: nGauge FAQs  (Read 357 times)

Offline SM105K

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2020, 02:02:34 PM »
A lock keeps most honest men honest.

So either congress has no locks....or...

My only comment on that is...."Absolute Power Corrupts".
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Offline FiveLeeter918

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2020, 02:39:30 PM »

Its shifty to screw over a user because of competition though.


Not sure I understand the reference. This is why you have to carefully research your tuning decision before making a purchase. Or you're the guy that buys OBX downpipes knowing that they are a direct copy of gen 1 Stainless Works for $450 and require modification to work on a PP even though Stainless Works has Gen 2 pipes that work without modification.

If you support the thief, but you only get partial service, who wins?
- Lee
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F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

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Offline FiveLeeter918

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2020, 02:39:54 PM »
A lock keeps most honest men honest.

So either congress has no locks....or...

My only comment on that is...."Absolute Power Corrupts".

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

Offline SM105K

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2020, 02:56:42 PM »
A lock keeps most honest men honest.

So either congress has no locks....or...

My only comment on that is...."Absolute Power Corrupts".

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

My C19 Helmet.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 03:07:45 PM by SM105K »
"M" 2013 SHO PP | AJPTurbo E30 Tune | GH Intercooler | PPE Downpipes | Custom Magnaflow Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete | Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts| EPP Noisemaker Eliminator | MSD Coil Over Plugs | SP-542's | UPR Dual Valve Catch Can | K&N Drop In | Power Stop Slotted and Drilled Rotors with Stock PP Pads | H&R Springs  | Curva Concept C7's | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

"The Fukus" 2013 Focus ST | AJPTurbo Flex Fuel Tune | Megan Racing Catless Downpipe | Boomba BOV | FSWerks Short Shifter | Power Stop Brakes | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

Offline GhostlyGrenade

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2020, 03:09:02 PM »

Its shifty to screw over a user because of competition though.


Not sure I understand the reference. This is why you have to carefully research your tuning decision before making a purchase. Or you're the guy that buys OBX downpipes knowing that they are a direct copy of gen 1 Stainless Works for $450 and require modification to work on a PP even though Stainless Works has Gen 2 pipes that work without modification.

If you support the thief, but you only get partial service, who wins?

Let's do a # of tuners vs a # of  customers:

You lock the tune to prevent say 10(random#) tuners from stealing
This prevents small tweaks such as tire size and lots of aftermarket software from working properly for say (random#)10,000 users.

So yeah you avoided the few thieves.

But now for the real example. Say my tuner dies unexpectedly and  I have a tune that is perfect but I have a new mod that needs a slight tweak.(let's use thermostatfor example) should I have to buy a whole new tune and start from scratch?
2015 SHO Darkside paint color, 3 bar, Motorcraft SP542 plugs@0.28, MSD Coils, K&N drop in, Continental Extreme Contact tires 255/45R20, EBC Yellow pads, 170 T-Stat, Redline 5w30, updated to the 2018+ trans mount, E-30 Blend, TUNED by AJPTurbo

Offline SM105K

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2020, 03:41:07 PM »

Its shifty to screw over a user because of competition though.


Not sure I understand the reference. This is why you have to carefully research your tuning decision before making a purchase. Or you're the guy that buys OBX downpipes knowing that they are a direct copy of gen 1 Stainless Works for $450 and require modification to work on a PP even though Stainless Works has Gen 2 pipes that work without modification.

If you support the thief, but you only get partial service, who wins?

Let's do a # of tuners vs a # of  customers:

You lock the tune to prevent say 10(random#) tuners from stealing
This prevents small tweaks such as tire size and lots of aftermarket software from working properly for say (random#)10,000 users.

So yeah you avoided the few thieves.

But now for the real example. Say my tuner dies unexpectedly and  I have a tune that is perfect but I have a new mod that needs a slight tweak.(let's use thermostatfor example) should I have to buy a whole new tune and start from scratch?

If you use another tuner to change a tune then yes. 

"M" 2013 SHO PP | AJPTurbo E30 Tune | GH Intercooler | PPE Downpipes | Custom Magnaflow Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete | Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts| EPP Noisemaker Eliminator | MSD Coil Over Plugs | SP-542's | UPR Dual Valve Catch Can | K&N Drop In | Power Stop Slotted and Drilled Rotors with Stock PP Pads | H&R Springs  | Curva Concept C7's | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

"The Fukus" 2013 Focus ST | AJPTurbo Flex Fuel Tune | Megan Racing Catless Downpipe | Boomba BOV | FSWerks Short Shifter | Power Stop Brakes | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

Offline StealBlueSHO

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nGauge FAQs
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2020, 04:03:16 PM »
At the end of the day I support tuners protecting their IP. And as far as I am concerned, the amount of time a tuner spends messing with tables to get the desired results is part of that IP.

So if someone completely rips off someone elseís tune, that could be decades and years of knowledge that someone is taking as their own.

Now the real danger here is not the average Joe who rips it and tweaks himself into oblivion. That is zero revenue lost to the tuner...

Its the guys who open up a shop say ďSuper Secret IncĒ and sell said tunes to 100ís of people... thatís when the damage happens.

Tuners make no money off a single data logged tune if you think of the time spent on it... one customer who has a interesting issue in the tune wipes out any hours gained on a few straight forward sales... so they have to sell a ton of tunes to support a business...

Look at the prices for tunes on other platforms that require data logging.. its significantly more than the $150 we pay.. a custom tune on almost any other platform is stupid pricey..

So the argument of should tuners lock their tunes? I would simply say yes, if anything, to prevent Joe from opening a tooning shop, and just reselling a tune they donít understand... and heaven knows if they tweaked it not understanding the full impact of their modifications..

I could go on... but for those worried about adjusting wheels sizes, etc.. in MOST cases, a tuner will make that change if you need it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 04:06:05 PM by StealBlueSHO »
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Offline 4sfed

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2020, 04:22:12 PM »
Not sure if this question belongs in this thread but...what does HPT offer for our platform, that SCT doesn't?  What can it do that SCT doesn't offer?

I ask because it was my understanding that HPT has yet to unlock or decode (or whatever) all the tables or information, in the EcoBoost ECU.  Is that not the case?
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Offline GhostlyGrenade

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2020, 04:44:34 PM »
At the end of the day I support tuners protecting their IP. And as far as I am concerned, the amount of time a tuner spends messing with tables to get the desired results is part of that IP.

So if someone completely rips off someone elseís tune, that could be decades and years of knowledge that someone is taking as their own.

Now the real danger here is not the average Joe who rips it and tweaks himself into oblivion. That is zero revenue lost to the tuner...

Its the guys who open up a shop say ďSuper Secret IncĒ and sell said tunes to 100ís of people... thatís when the damage happens.

Tuners make no money off a single data logged tune if you think of the time spent on it... one customer who has a interesting issue in the tune wipes out any hours gained on a few straight forward sales... so they have to sell a ton of tunes to support a business...

Look at the prices for tunes on other platforms that require data logging.. its significantly more than the $150 we pay.. a custom tune on almost any other platform is stupid pricey..

So the argument of should tuners lock their tunes? I would simply say yes, if anything, to prevent Joe from opening a tooning shop, and just reselling a tune they donít understand... and heaven knows if they tweaked it not understanding the full impact of their modifications..

I could go on... but for those worried about adjusting wheels sizes, etc.. in MOST cases, a tuner will make that change if you need it.

So if someone downloads a movie, they would have definitely went to see it otherwise right? The lost revenue argument doesn't hold up.

This isn't like a book or movie/music...you can't just make 100 copies and sell em. You wouldn't need datalogging if it was that easy.

Surely this IP can be copyrighted then? Patented?
Oh....so this is more like adjusting a pass through filter. I'm just tweaking existing settings...and if by chance I match the timing curve of another...I'm stealing erm "plagiarizing" if you will.

My point is only the end user is harmed. If a tuner wants to steal a tune(which most tunes aren't swappable between cars...except gearhead AO)
They will most likely do a bin dump. There is no current protection against this.
2015 SHO Darkside paint color, 3 bar, Motorcraft SP542 plugs@0.28, MSD Coils, K&N drop in, Continental Extreme Contact tires 255/45R20, EBC Yellow pads, 170 T-Stat, Redline 5w30, updated to the 2018+ trans mount, E-30 Blend, TUNED by AJPTurbo

Offline GhostlyGrenade

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2020, 04:45:43 PM »
Not sure if this question belongs in this thread but...what does HPT offer for our platform, that SCT doesn't?  What can it do that SCT doesn't offer?

I ask because it was my understanding that HPT has yet to unlock or decode (or whatever) all the tables or information, in the EcoBoost ECU.  Is that not the case?
Pre 2013 they are missing a lot. Post 2013 they have just as many. Post 2018 they have surpassed sct.
2015 SHO Darkside paint color, 3 bar, Motorcraft SP542 plugs@0.28, MSD Coils, K&N drop in, Continental Extreme Contact tires 255/45R20, EBC Yellow pads, 170 T-Stat, Redline 5w30, updated to the 2018+ trans mount, E-30 Blend, TUNED by AJPTurbo

Offline 4sfed

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2020, 04:56:53 PM »
Pre 2013 they are missing a lot. Post 2013 they have just as many. Post 2018 they have surpassed sct.

Assuming my tuner supports it, would it be worth switching from SCT to HPT?
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Offline GhostlyGrenade

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2020, 05:20:25 PM »
Pre 2013 they are missing a lot. Post 2013 they have just as many. Post 2018 they have surpassed sct.

Assuming my tuner supports it, would it be worth switching from SCT to HPT?

This would be a question for Ortiz I'd say.
2015 SHO Darkside paint color, 3 bar, Motorcraft SP542 plugs@0.28, MSD Coils, K&N drop in, Continental Extreme Contact tires 255/45R20, EBC Yellow pads, 170 T-Stat, Redline 5w30, updated to the 2018+ trans mount, E-30 Blend, TUNED by AJPTurbo

Offline FiveLeeter918

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2020, 11:29:22 PM »
At the end of the day I support tuners protecting their IP. And as far as I am concerned, the amount of time a tuner spends messing with tables to get the desired results is part of that IP.

So if someone completely rips off someone elseís tune, that could be decades and years of knowledge that someone is taking as their own.

Now the real danger here is not the average Joe who rips it and tweaks himself into oblivion. That is zero revenue lost to the tuner...

Its the guys who open up a shop say ďSuper Secret IncĒ and sell said tunes to 100ís of people... thatís when the damage happens.

Tuners make no money off a single data logged tune if you think of the time spent on it... one customer who has a interesting issue in the tune wipes out any hours gained on a few straight forward sales... so they have to sell a ton of tunes to support a business...

Look at the prices for tunes on other platforms that require data logging.. its significantly more than the $150 we pay.. a custom tune on almost any other platform is stupid pricey..

So the argument of should tuners lock their tunes? I would simply say yes, if anything, to prevent Joe from opening a tooning shop, and just reselling a tune they donít understand... and heaven knows if they tweaked it not understanding the full impact of their modifications..

I could go on... but for those worried about adjusting wheels sizes, etc.. in MOST cases, a tuner will make that change if you need it.

So if someone downloads a movie, they would have definitely went to see it otherwise right? The lost revenue argument doesn't hold up.

This isn't like a book or movie/music...you can't just make 100 copies and sell em. You wouldn't need datalogging if it was that easy.

Surely this IP can be copyrighted then? Patented?
Oh....so this is more like adjusting a pass through filter. I'm just tweaking existing settings...and if by chance I match the timing curve of another...I'm stealing erm "plagiarizing" if you will.

My point is only the end user is harmed. If a tuner wants to steal a tune(which most tunes aren't swappable between cars...except gearhead AO)
They will most likely do a bin dump. There is no current protection against this.

You could copyright a tune, but you'd be copyrighting that exact coded development, and since every car is a different strategy, setup and configuration you'd go broke trying to protect your investment and it would be counter intuitive. Instead the industry relies on integrity between calibration engineers to not steal or copy data from one another. Does it happen? Most definitely as people will do anything to make a buck. But much like a mechanical component, hours of R&D goes into the development of a proper calibration and rather than charge $1000 per tune like some Mustang tuners, we rely on volume from the market to make up the difference.

Luis has monthly classes both online and in person to teach Mustang tuning. He's had many clients offer large sums of money to purchase his templates, but there is a certain art with tuning that is refined only through trial and error to understand why the changes are needed and what each tuning modification affects in the long run.

If you look hard enough, there are services out there that cater to the DIYer and actually have ripped HPT files from many tuners. Last I saw many of Gearhead's diesel files were on there for $20 each, as well as most of Lund's calibrations.

I know we're all trying to get through this game as cheap as possible, but when you buy a tune you aren't just buying a file, you're buying a tuner's experience, knowledge and expertise on the platform. Post sale support is just as important as the pre-sale marketing.
- Lee
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Offline GhostlyGrenade

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Re: nGauge FAQs
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2020, 11:33:45 PM »
there is a certain art with tuning that is refined only through trial and error to understand why the changes are needed and what each tuning modification affects in the long run.


This right here is what I'm saying and thats all that matters to anyone who  buys a tune from their tuner.
2015 SHO Darkside paint color, 3 bar, Motorcraft SP542 plugs@0.28, MSD Coils, K&N drop in, Continental Extreme Contact tires 255/45R20, EBC Yellow pads, 170 T-Stat, Redline 5w30, updated to the 2018+ trans mount, E-30 Blend, TUNED by AJPTurbo

 

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