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Author Topic: F150 Boost pressure feels limited  (Read 15355 times)

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2020, 10:02:51 AM »
okedokey...   

Whats bugging topher is this :

#1) I can see the boost is steady from the MAP .. BUT the Throttle-Actual in many cases is fluttering as compared to the throttle position,  and along with the Throttle-Actual is Wastegate %% .. so your foot goes down slow and steady,  but the throttle blade, wategate are blipping up and down.  In some cases its more then 7% but less than 10% .. in other sections it is fluttering 10-17% and you would feel that as a surge.  Most of this fluttering is around 30-50% throttle.  under WoT i do not see the same behavior. BUT then we get to #2 ..

#2)  I do not log the Slippage of the TQ converter.  Never needed to.  so When i look at yours i cannot say ''oh there it is...'' BUT i find it damn coincidental that your TQ-slip logs look jittery as hell ''around'' the same time the flutter seems creep up.

so for me IMO my next step would be this :
#1) find someone who has a data log of normal driving + WoT who is logging TQ-slip and compare ..
#2) crawl under truck,  check the ??speed sensor??  (Z/SHODD confirm speed sensor location) PHYSICALLY,  check terminal, loose etc..

My thought goes to a previous ''surging'' case where a bad speed sensor cause the upstream ECU to rapidly adjust throttle and by proxy boost waste % beacuse the ECU has zero clue WTF is going on past the input signal.

other possibility .. bad TQ-converter ..  in this case i am thinking of ''chatter'' versus outright slipping




« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 10:13:57 AM by TopherSho »
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline SHOdded

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2020, 10:17:06 AM »
the interaction between engine and trans control makes it a heck of a debugging exercise

The speed sensors are behind a plastic cover (main control cover) on the side of the transmission for the 6F55, not sure how it is setup for the F150s (6R80?).
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline Defhd10

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2020, 10:34:20 AM »
okedokey...   

Whats bugging topher is this :

#1) I can see the boost is steady from the MAP .. BUT the Throttle-Actual in many cases is fluttering as compared to the throttle position,  and along with the Throttle-Actual is Wastegate %% .. so your foot goes down slow and steady,  but the throttle blade, wategate are blipping up and down.  In some cases its more then 7% but less than 10% .. in other sections it is fluttering 10-17% and you would feel that as a surge.  Most of this fluttering is around 30-50% throttle.  under WoT i do not see the same behavior. BUT then we get to #2 ..

#2)  I do not log the Slippage of the TQ converter.  Never needed to.  so When i look at yours i cannot say ''oh there it is...'' BUT i find it damn coincidental that your TQ-slip logs look jittery as hell ''around'' the same time the flutter seems creep up.

so for me IMO my next step would be this :
#1) find someone who has a data log of normal driving + WoT who is logging TQ-slip and compare ..
#2) crawl under truck,  check the ??speed sensor??  (Z/SHODD confirm speed sensor location) PHYSICALLY,  check terminal, loose etc..

My thought goes to a previous ''surging'' case where a bad speed sensor cause the upstream ECU to rapidly adjust throttle and by proxy boost waste % beacuse the ECU has zero clue WTF is going on past the input signal.

other possibility .. bad TQ-converter ..  in this case i am thinking of ''chatter'' versus outright slipping
If i recall correctly, i believe the recall was to reprogram the pcm for an intermittent failure of the output speed sensor.  Is it possible at the time of the flash, it messed that all up?  I will have to look into where its located on these transmissions, although i havent messed with anything under the vehicle so im not sure if anything would be loose but never know. Does this explain why though when pulling hills trying to maintain speed, my boost is being limited to that certain point?  This past weekend i did 2 more logs, one on my truck and one on my dads thats the exact same truck with the exact same strategy. As soon as our internet starts working again i can send you those 2 logs to compare. They are the same driving style and route. I added a few other pids like fuel pressure to monitor but nothing stood out to me but of course i dont know what im looking for.

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2020, 11:18:28 AM »
The new logs will be perfect. 

As for speed sensor effects it is outright voodoo. 

My thought falls to the sensor VOLTAGE .. it may be falling / spiking out of the expected range **of the new ECU\TCU updates**  where as the old ECU parameters were more tolerant.  As for why under load... I am unsure.  But a bad Tq-converter and or Speed sensor - or bad wiring from the speed sensor is a very strong possibility.   Still cannot rule out a bad wastegate..

But for sure logs will help with a review of you Fathers TQ-slip readings if it is from the exact same hill on the same day .. if his truck lacks ''jitter'' on the logs it becomes my #1 suspect. 


2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2020, 11:22:26 AM »
Was there any TCU updates applied for the bulletin?   Are we 100% sure if so the TCU update was applied?   If your fathers truck is the same year / build i'd be curious what IDS says the revision of TCU each truck has.

But for now focus is logs > speed sensor > speed sensor wiring > TQ-converter health .. at least that's where my head goes for this bizarre behavior
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline Defhd10

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2020, 11:50:20 AM »
Was there any TCU updates applied for the bulletin?   Are we 100% sure if so the TCU update was applied?   If your fathers truck is the same year / build i'd be curious what IDS says the revision of TCU each truck has.

But for now focus is logs > speed sensor > speed sensor wiring > TQ-converter health .. at least that's where my head goes for this bizarre behavior
Soon as we get internet ill get the logs over to you. They are on the same day with the same driving style on the same route. His truck is the same as mine to a T. Only difference is color. Exact build dates im not 100% on but i think they are within 3 months of each other. I dont have my exact letter i got in the mail for the recall, but this is all it said so im not sure of TCU updates. Would forscan tell me the revision?

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2020, 11:53:26 AM »
Sorry boss,  im unsure on FSCAN .. 
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2020, 11:56:53 AM »
Was there any TCU updates applied for the bulletin?   Are we 100% sure if so the TCU update was applied?   If your fathers truck is the same year / build i'd be curious what IDS says the revision of TCU each truck has.

But for now focus is logs > speed sensor > speed sensor wiring > TQ-converter health .. at least that's where my head goes for this bizarre behavior
Soon as we get internet ill get the logs over to you. They are on the same day with the same driving style on the same route. His truck is the same as mine to a T. Only difference is color. Exact build dates im not 100% on but i think they are within 3 months of each other. I dont have my exact letter i got in the mail for the recall, but this is all it said so im not sure of TCU updates. Would forscan tell me the revision?

Did the dealer change your transmission fluid?  Or add fluid .. and were you rubbing non-oem fluid prior to the 'service'  ?  -->  just thinking outside the box of ''what if'' they mixed fluid types if you have non-oem tranny fluid,  or the tranny fluid is too low or too high. 
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline Defhd10

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2020, 01:06:12 PM »
Was there any TCU updates applied for the bulletin?   Are we 100% sure if so the TCU update was applied?   If your fathers truck is the same year / build i'd be curious what IDS says the revision of TCU each truck has.

But for now focus is logs > speed sensor > speed sensor wiring > TQ-converter health .. at least that's where my head goes for this bizarre behavior
Soon as we get internet ill get the logs over to you. They are on the same day with the same driving style on the same route. His truck is the same as mine to a T. Only difference is color. Exact build dates im not 100% on but i think they are within 3 months of each other. I dont have my exact letter i got in the mail for the recall, but this is all it said so im not sure of TCU updates. Would forscan tell me the revision?

Did the dealer change your transmission fluid?  Or add fluid .. and were you rubbing non-oem fluid prior to the 'service'  ?  -->  just thinking outside the box of ''what if'' they mixed fluid types if you have non-oem tranny fluid,  or the tranny fluid is too low or too high.
Negative on a fluid change. Fluid thats in it is the same thats been in it from day one. Truck was only at the dealership for 20 minutes if that for the reprogramming. When the surging first began from the condensation i checked my tranny fluid and its right where it needs to be. Nor did it look dirty or smell burnt.

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2020, 01:08:16 PM »
thanks for the logs..

So we have some good news and interesting news.  from the 275+ seconds (WoT)

Both TQ-converters 'behave' in the logs the same.  Assumption,  there fine.
RPM curves are basically the same, so the 'power' is the same.  IE it is able to make' the requested power.

BUT ::
yours 100% has a fueling issue.  Your OAR keeps fluttering.  His is rock steady.

Yours has much larger more abrupt spikes in throttle blade position under WoT, unsure about the meaning at this time but it is a very noticeable metric
Yours has LTFT elevated under WoT as compared to your fathers rig,  in particular Bank#1 .. its only .5 off... but it is a difference to note and again points to a fueling issue

STFT are both erratic .. still sorting that out
YOUR waste-gates are operating 10% higher when ramping to 3rd gear,  i seem to recall you have rebuilt yours so it is a metric id discount.. but noted

Both have solid AFR so the ecu in yours is doing its job to maintain proper mix.. but the fluttering OAR is suspicious.  I am surprised the tuner did not comment on it ..



so not the TQ-converter or sending unit.  this looks like it is going backwards to a fueling issue,  or a issue with the intercooler having A LOT LOT LOT of flammable goop in it.

Out of curiosity ... how much oil are you putting in the truck between oil changes?
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline Defhd10

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2020, 02:44:43 PM »
thanks for the logs..

So we have some good news and interesting news.  from the 275+ seconds (WoT)

Both TQ-converters 'behave' in the logs the same.  Assumption,  there fine.
RPM curves are basically the same, so the 'power' is the same.  IE it is able to make' the requested power.

BUT ::
yours 100% has a fueling issue.  Your OAR keeps fluttering.  His is rock steady.

Yours has much larger more abrupt spikes in throttle blade position under WoT, unsure about the meaning at this time but it is a very noticeable metric
Yours has LTFT elevated under WoT as compared to your fathers rig,  in particular Bank#1 .. its only .5 off... but it is a difference to note and again points to a fueling issue

STFT are both erratic .. still sorting that out
YOUR waste-gates are operating 10% higher when ramping to 3rd gear,  i seem to recall you have rebuilt yours so it is a metric id discount.. but noted

Both have solid AFR so the ecu in yours is doing its job to maintain proper mix.. but the fluttering OAR is suspicious.  I am surprised the tuner did not comment on it ..



so not the TQ-converter or sending unit.  this looks like it is going backwards to a fueling issue,  or a issue with the intercooler having A LOT LOT LOT of flammable goop in it.

Out of curiosity ... how much oil are you putting in the truck between oil changes?
Thank you so much for comparing these and getting back to me. Like i said i dont know how to read them so i appreciate you taking the time to do so. A fuel issue has been in my mind but wasnt sure about it or what to look for. Also good to hear on the TQ converter, was really hoping it wasnt tranny related as from my research these transmissions have no external sensors or modules. Everything is internal in the lead frame.

Oil changes are every 5000 miles religiously,  usually even a couple 100 miles before i reach the 5000.  I did pull the intercooler again last week to take a look, and there was some oil in it, but no more then what it was when i swapped it out for the wagner a year ago.

I will add this, back when this all started prior to finding all the water in my intercooler that caused the misfire, i did dump a bottle of heet in thinking maybe i possibly got a bad batch of fuel. That made no difference so i made sure to run a full tank through. After that tank, i dumped a bottle of techron in to see if that would change anything. Of course it did not, but could i have created the problem by doing this? 

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2020, 04:11:25 PM »
I will add this, back when this all started prior to finding all the water in my intercooler that caused the misfire, i did dump a bottle of heet in thinking maybe i possibly got a bad batch of fuel. That made no difference so i made sure to run a full tank through. After that tank, i dumped a bottle of techron in to see if that would change anything. Of course it did not, but could i have created the problem by doing this?

No sir,  Those additives are very flammable,  they would not affect the OAR like this with the ratio of fluids.  HEET is meth,  our engines love meth until it is to much for the fuel system and have different issues.   Are you buying the same gas as whats in the other rig? 

I wonder .. hey Z/SHOdded has anyone reported issues with the data/voltage from Ethanol sensors?  Where would you look to check the harness? ..

EDIT;  I don't have access to it,  but I think there is a PID fore the Ethanol sensor .. have the tuner add it in and relog.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 04:15:58 PM by TopherSho »
2010 non-pp, 50k miles, 3-bar,  .30 plugs, 170-T-stat, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJP TURBO METH TUNE-REV3
 
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Offline SHOdded

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2020, 04:48:36 PM »
Ethanol sensor?  IDK if there is any for the F150, there is none on the SHO.  It is all based off the knock sensor response/data, not ethanol content.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline Defhd10

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2020, 05:11:11 PM »
I will add this, back when this all started prior to finding all the water in my intercooler that caused the misfire, i did dump a bottle of heet in thinking maybe i possibly got a bad batch of fuel. That made no difference so i made sure to run a full tank through. After that tank, i dumped a bottle of techron in to see if that would change anything. Of course it did not, but could i have created the problem by doing this?

No sir,  Those additives are very flammable,  they would not affect the OAR like this with the ratio of fluids.  HEET is meth,  our engines love meth until it is to much for the fuel system and have different issues.   Are you buying the same gas as whats in the other rig? 

I wonder .. hey Z/SHOdded has anyone reported issues with the data/voltage from Ethanol sensors?  Where would you look to check the harness? ..

EDIT;  I don't have access to it,  but I think there is a PID fore the Ethanol sensor .. have the tuner add it in and relog.
Both of us run sunoco fuel from all the different stations around here. He runs 87 octane and i have used 89 for the past 3 years being mine was tuned for 89. Currently im not actively working with the tuner on this since its im having the problem on the stock tune, and when i first noticed the problem and sent a log, all i got back was a revision to try with no explanation or acknowledgement of the issue. Im not bad mouthing anyone by any means but i felt it was clear i was on my own with this one.  I could look for an ethanol pid and see if it shows anything, but ive never seen it mentioned or ever heard of it on the f150s as well.

Offline TopherSho

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Re: F150 Boost pressure feels limited
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2020, 05:23:57 PM »
dang it i got my words crossed up.. I meant Flex Fuel sensor .. :P
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