Nagging Knock sound and Shudder

waltong · October 23, 2018, 08:04:26 PM

2014 police interceptor with ecoboost

I have been having a knock noise over 1,500RPM and intermittent shudder under light acceleration between 2nd, 3rd gear for over a year.

Using a Stethoscope, the noise seems loudest when near center of oil pan, less noisy on top of engine.

Mechanic thinks it may be a rod bearing... 7 hours in labor just to remove the oil pan and verify if it's the bearing or also crank scored.

If crank is scored, mechanic says full engine pull needed...15 hours additional labor.

Any other way to diagnose?

SHOdded · October 23, 2018, 08:20:46 PM

Analyze the oil at Blackstone Labs. If there is a rod or rod bearing issue, it will show up. Yes there will be downtime but doesnt sound like you should be driving it anyway.

If analysis is positive for wear, replace the engine. No telling where the wear will show up next on the current engine. If keeping old turbos, replace all feed lines, after the turbos pass close inspection.

How many miles on your PI btw?

waltong · October 24, 2018, 12:55:17 AM

Quote from: SHOdded on October 23, 2018, 08:20:46 PM
Analyze the oil at Blackstone Labs. If there is a rod or rod bearing issue, it will show up. Yes there will be downtime but doesnt sound like you should be driving it anyway.

If analysis is positive for wear, replace the engine. No telling where the wear will show up next on the current engine. If keeping old turbos, replace all feed lines, after the turbos pass close inspection.

How many miles on your PI btw?

Roughly 90k miles...

What's the cheapest way to replace an engine?

SHOdded · October 24, 2018, 01:49:43 AM

Look on car-part.com for a reasonably priced used engine, 2013+. The labor will vary, you will have to shop around. If you go through a dealer, the price will be substantially more, although with a Ford remanned engine you will also get a 3 year/unlimited mile warranty.

waltong · October 24, 2018, 10:26:31 AM

Quote from: SHOdded on October 24, 2018, 01:49:43 AM
Look on car-part.com for a reasonably priced used engine, 2013+. The labor will vary, you will have to shop around. If you go through a dealer, the price will be substantially more, although with a Ford remanned engine you will also get a 3 year/unlimited mile warranty.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to send the sample to Blackstone..

Is it possible to order a remmaned engine from Ford and have another shop install?

Where is there more information on the Ford remmaned engines?

SHOdded · October 24, 2018, 10:32:53 AM

https://parts.ford.com is your resource for Ford remanufactured engines. Motorcraft MIGHT have it in their online catalog but I don't think so.

Dealer pricing available through the websites of https://parts.levittownfordparts.com, https://www.tascaparts.com/, and https://parts.autonationfordwhitebearlake.com/ among others. Ford keeps changing things around though, so your best bet might be going to the parts counter at dealers local to you.

https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts-list/2014-ford-taurus/service-engine-and-short-block.html?Filter=(30734)

waltong · October 24, 2018, 03:47:51 PM

In terms of diagnosing the shudder... I've taken it to three garages and no one has pinpointed what is causing it. The current garage believes that it's related to the knock sensor cutting power intermittently due to detecting the knock.

Could this theory be ruled by unplugging the knock sensor to see if it still shudders?

In other words, the shudder problem isn't necessarily related to the knock

SHOdded · October 24, 2018, 04:06:01 PM

well, if it is transmission related, the answer is certainly NOT unplugging the knock sensor. Why? The knock sensor is as vital to Ecoboost function as breathing is to humans!

Instead, I would take a look at tires, tire pressures, etc. If all those look good and the road surface is grippy, then I would check trans fluid level and condition next. If condition looks good, add fluid till it is to the top of the hash mark area and then a pint more. See if the shudder goes away.

Use of a tool like Chassis EARS can help knock coming from various suspension and steering parts as well. Might even be the PTU for all we know ... Usually would be preceded by fluid loss, leaky seals etc. but there is always an exception ...

waltong · October 25, 2018, 07:10:27 AM

Had it to an AAMCO to go over the tranny, they said it checked out fine and shudder was not related.

I'm having a hell of a time trying to find a garage that wants to roll up their sleeves and troubleshoot the shuddering.

Seems the most anyone wants to do is hook up a live feed computer to it and watch the data as they drive... This is what modern diagnoses and troubleshooting starts and ends with?

Do I need to find a shop that specializes in these engines. Is it really that unique?

The only other symptom I can note is that the RPMs surge sometimes under light acceleration and that seems to correspond with the shuddering.

I feel like I'm using my eyes ears and tactile sense to try to problem solve. And most modern mechanics just rely on a computer screen.

Very frustrating!

SHOdded · October 25, 2018, 08:20:12 AM

That is pretty much the way troubleshooting is done on modern vehicles, due to the complexity of control mechanisms & number of computers/sensors involved.

Did you check the transmission fluid level and condition? That is a physical check. You can pull the hoses off the turbos to see if there is an issue with them. Pooling oil or bent/damaged turbines means they are toast. Check the blowoff valves see if the orange seal is broken. All these are physical checks.

Lincoln dealerships have a better handle on the Ecoboost than Ford dealerships it seems. Aftermarket, it is a crapshoot. Maybe try a speedshop that deals with forced induction engines?

waltong · November 07, 2018, 03:18:12 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on October 23, 2018, 08:20:46 PM
Analyze the oil at Blackstone Labs. If there is a rod or rod bearing issue, it will show up. Yes there will be downtime but doesnt sound like you should be driving it anyway.

If analysis is positive for wear, replace the engine. No telling where the wear will show up next on the current engine. If keeping old turbos, replace all feed lines, after the turbos pass close inspection.

How many miles on your PI btw?

Oil analysis came back from blackstone (see picture attached). Looks like a good bit of iron content , so the crank is probably scored.

Two options:
1) Replace just the bearings. Do these engines suffer or survive with a scored crank journal if the bearings are new?
2) Replace entire shortblock with a upgraded high performance option and use rest of existing engine. If the issue is rod bearings and crank wear, would the rest of the upper part of the engine be ok to use married with a beefed up short block?

What do you all think?

SHOdded · November 07, 2018, 04:40:41 PM

Replace the engine, longblock. Otherwise you might be replacing again. inspect turbos and screens carefully, replace screens and gaskets at a minimum if turbos look fine. Flush the intercooler thoroughly. New PCV valve/breather.

The block itself is aluminum I think, iron is likely from the cylinder liner, but it could be from anywhere. Bit of copper and chrome too but not alarming, so bearings took a hit but not huge.