Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => Datalogging and Gauges => Topic started by: ecoboostsho on April 16, 2015, 10:47:38 AM

Title: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 16, 2015, 10:47:38 AM
Learned Octane Ratio (LOR)

Not being able to understand what the LOR (A gauge we have in the Torque App) was doing or even if the formula was right (I was pretty confident it wasn’t) was driving me a bit crazy so I decided to do some experimenting.  This is a long post so I apologize in advance but stick with it – I think this is a good gauge to have working when all is said and done.

First a good refresher on what the LOR gauge is "supposed" to do would be in order. I believe it is approximating the octane level in your gas - not through a sensor - but by monitoring knock (and maybe other?) parameters in the ECU. If it sees it knocking away then it assumes you've got some bad gas or you put in 87 Octane and it adjusts the timing to compensate by multiplying the LOR number by the appropriate timing table and thus reducing your overall timing. This should result in less knock and a happy motor.  A great analogy (Thanks Larry!) is that the LOR is sort of like the Long Term Fuel Trim in that it learns over time from the Short Term Fuel Trims and comes up with an adjustment value.  In this case however the Knock gauge is the “real time” feedback loop and LOR is the learned value over time that will try and prevent knock in the first place.

The Experiment:

 I put the car back to stock as I was planning on running different Octane fuels to try and understand the results. Needless to say I didn’t think throwing 87 octane in with my 93 tune was a great idea. I didn’t really like doing it stock but I did this to try and figure out how it worked. 

Step one after going back to stock was to watch the values change as it learned and I did this with 93 octane and a mix of E-85. I calculated my mix at about E16.

Timeout: The other piece of background information that I want to insert here was the Cobb tuning article posted by another member that indicated how the numbers should work in theory…a value of -1 was said to indicate the “best” possible ratio you could achieve. If the value moved back toward 0 or to +1 then the car was ultimately removing timing to avoid Knock. It used values from part throttle and full throttle. They call it “Octane Adjust Ratio” but I believe it is the same thing…I may even rename the PID in Torque. http://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204049644-Octane-Adjust-Ratio-OAR- (http://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204049644-Octane-Adjust-Ratio-OAR-)

Back to the experiment: So as I stated above I started with E16 so I could get the car to a theoretical -1 and let the car go from there. After tracking the points and doing some math it was clear that the numbers were signed binary numbers but thankfully Torque handles this. The formula I came up with was:

(Signed(A)*256+B)/16384


Custom PID is 2203E8

(If anyone needs assistance in where to type this in just PM me or refer to the Torque PIDs thread in this same forum.)  You will need to DELETE the existing gauge off of the display and THEN edit the PID or you will get weird results.

I used the Digital display gauge and one important point (if using that gauge) is to override the default # of decimal places and use a value = 2. Just press on the gauge on the screen and go to “display configuration” and select “decimal places”. If you don’t do this it will start rounding on you and you may not realize it has changed at all.

My car started “learning” and moved toward -1 and eventually achieved that value after a few hours of driving the car. I did get some part throttle knock and at some point the value actually “settled” at -.98 for about a week and then finally back to -1 after about a full tank of gas.

Next up: 87 Octane

I put in 10 gallons of 87 Octane with about a ¼ tank (roughly 5 gallons or so) while not exactly 87 Octane combined I’m guessing it was probably in the 89-90 total range. Well my results were immediate and dramatic. Once I used up whatever 93+ was in the lines the car immediately started knocking during part throttle acceleration on a freeway on ramp. I saw a constant 4-5 degrees of knock at part throttle and then just couldn’t take it anymore (i.e. I chickened out) so I backed off the throttle. The LOR instantly went from -1 to -.75 and the car immediately felt slower (I’m not kidding I could tell…) but it was no longer knocking nearly as much when attempting the same type of acceleration. I only drove it for a few miles like this and expect it to continue to move towards 0 but time will tell what happens and I will update the results as I get them. I can’t imagine what kind of stupid gas it would take to make it positive number but I don’t know that I want to find out. The good news is that it appears very sensitive and reacts right away to save the engine in conjunction with the Knock gauge.

After driving some more on the blended crappy gas I can report back that the car briefly tried to go from -.75 to -.83 and that lasted until the next highway on ramp run under part throttle and it shot back to -0.67 when I hit 4 degrees of knock.  I can definitiely say the gauge is working well.  So far any knock that hits 4 degrees or higher seems to cause a fairly immediate adjustment to the LOR gauge.  The car seems to tolerate up to 3 degrees of knock as “normal” and doesn’t make any immediate adjustments to the LOR value.

Drove the car for a full week with the 87 Octane.  I just put 93 octane back in it and after a few trips the LOR shot to -0.99 which is almost perfect.  It did have a little of the 87 left in it so I’m running something a little less than pure 93.  Car is still stock but will be retuning shortly.

I will probably try 91 on my 93 tune to see if the LOR value is indeed utilized by the “tuned” ECU.  I can’t imagine it isn’t but you never know…

So in closing I highly recommend you remove the previous Learned Octane Ratio gauge (Also accept my apologies since I figured out the first one based on another Scan tool that apparently had it wrong as well).

Also these are all based on my research – I welcome any constructive feedback or data points you might experience so we can improve this and/or verify that this is currently “correct”. I am 99% more confident in this formula than the last one however, that doesn’t make it perfect. Just understand that there ARE situations where you could get readings that indicate “bad gas” or “Low Octane” that might actually be other problems. What I mean by that is if a knock sensor is going bad it may show excessive knock even on 93 octane fuel. In this case the problem isn’t the fuel but something with your car – but it will show up as a LOR that is moving toward 0 or +1 instead of -1.

Happy motoring!

PS. The car sucks on a stock tune and 87 octane…
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on April 16, 2015, 11:29:19 AM
You sir, are a genius!

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 16, 2015, 11:34:12 AM
Thanks Rich - I am anything but that...but I appreciate the comment.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOdded on April 16, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
Thanks for putting this up, I think quite a few people will have something to "learn" from this gauge about their fuels :)
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2015, 12:49:06 PM
Awesome work!

I'm curious to see if my 20% blend of e-85 and meth get us below -1.....

Hopefully I read that correctly, lol.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 16, 2015, 12:51:31 PM
I suspect you won't find it going below this value but it would actually be awesome if it did!
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: sunwolf on April 16, 2015, 01:48:18 PM
I suspect you won't find it going below this value but it would actually be awesome if it did!
If it doesn't drop below -1 does that mean that there is no benefit? Maybe 2 gallons is too much without special tuning?
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 16, 2015, 01:58:05 PM
I wouldn't necessarily assume that I guess. The car may still add timing due to other factors that don't directly influence LOR.  It would be interesting to see, but I've gone as far as I am willing to go in the e85 testing dept.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: wasinger3000 on April 16, 2015, 04:18:43 PM
Can't wait to see how this acts with meth in the tank. Thanks for the great work!
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ShoBoat on April 17, 2015, 07:32:42 AM
 I can personally say that it works as advertised. I tried it in my SHO as I was working through some fuel quality issues. And I decided to try it in our Explorer (wife only uses 87) LOR was at -0.08 lol. Thanks for the work on this!


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Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 17, 2015, 06:57:40 PM
I suspect you won't find it going below this value but it would actually be awesome if it did!
If it doesn't drop below -1 does that mean that there is no benefit? Maybe 2 gallons is too much without special tuning?
The 2013 and the 2015 jumped about 40 WTQ and 25 WHP according to Torque, and before anyone says Torque is inaccurate...

The 2013 ET dropped from 13.70 to 13.31 so I feel pretty confident the stock tune can make good use of the octane.

I'd say 4/10ths is a pretty respectable gain and it's the cheapest mod ever.

Hopefully the weather will start cooperating and we can see what the 15 does.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: glock-coma on April 18, 2015, 05:33:49 PM
I tried the updated lor gauge today. I'm  at -1.0, but I'm due to fill up soon. We'll see if it changes at all.


2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost 3bar
more to come.....

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: Larrylu on April 21, 2015, 09:10:44 AM
Great work ecoboostsho!  I'm really liking having this gauge on my main display screen. Awesome functionality.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 21, 2015, 09:27:44 AM
Thanks Larry!  I ended up putting the tune back in and am still trying to work my way back to full 93 Octane (I am getting close) but my LOR is actually still at -0.93 so I am guessing it is either still learning (It's only been about 4 days of occasional driving) or my Octane isn't up to speed yet as I had a little of the 87 Octane left in the tank.  Either way I do think this gauge is actually working well so far.  I will definitely be interested to see what happens with those running some high Ethanol blends.

As I've said before it should be a "boring" gauge...until it isn't and then I will be glad I have it if I start seeing knock.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on April 21, 2015, 10:40:07 AM
Put straight 93 in yesterday, no corn. LOR still reading -1. No excessive KR, less -kr in normal driving for sure though.

Rich

Edit: 93 has 10% E in it
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: Larrylu on April 23, 2015, 05:07:55 AM
I've got a big grin on my face lately. I haven't had a KR issue in a very long time and the LOR is happily perched on -1.0 all while running 4X.  I did a brief WOT blast yesterday to look at CHP readings and was pleased to see a 15.1 lb boost reading. I'm not positive, but I think that's my first in the 15's. I have been worried about KR and gas octane issues for what seems to me like a long time. I'm tempted to say I was struggling with this last year even before the cold weather, so I'm a bit reluctant to chalk my good fortune now to the return of summer gas, but I don't know what else to credit.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on April 23, 2015, 05:48:11 AM
I've got a big grin on my face lately. I haven't had a KR issue in a very long time and the LOR is happily perched on -1.0 all while running 4X.  I did a brief WOT blast yesterday to look at CHP readings and was pleased to see a 15.1 lb boost reading. I'm not positive, but I think that's my first in the 15's. I have been worried about KR and gas octane issues for what seems to me like a long time. I'm tempted to say I was struggling with this last year even before the cold weather, so I'm a bit reluctant to chalk my good fortune now to the return of summer gas, but I don't know what else to credit.
Great news Larry. That KR gauge can be quite the attention grabber, but is a must to watch everyday IMO.

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOdded on April 23, 2015, 06:12:28 AM
Yay for summer gas!
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 23, 2015, 07:46:07 AM
LOR gauge functioning as advertised.

As far as -Kr, with the current brew I can be cruising on level ground at 40 and I see negative.....
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on April 23, 2015, 07:48:36 AM
Just a reminder for those typing in PID'S....some devices will auto space after you put in "signed"...this space will cause a flat 0 reading

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: Larrylu on April 23, 2015, 08:18:49 AM

LOR gauge functioning as advertised.

As far as -Kr, with the current brew I can be cruising on level ground at 40 and I see negative.....
Must remember that -KR is good!  Timing being added in! 
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 23, 2015, 08:21:04 AM
Just a reminder for those typing in PID'S....some devices will auto space after you put in "signed"...this space will cause a flat 0 reading

Rich
Good call, mine did that but I noticed....
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: sunwolf on April 23, 2015, 08:32:58 AM
Im going to have to do some testing with this. I currently am jumping between -.82 and -.93. will have to see what different stations gas will do. Anyone ever use sunoco 94 octane? Overpriced but maybe it will get me to -1 without blending.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 23, 2015, 08:35:28 AM
I'm stuck at -0.90 as well but I had some 87 left from my testing. I just filled up with 93 and a gallon of e85 to see what happens.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 23, 2015, 08:40:40 AM
Im going to have to do some testing with this. I currently am jumping between -.82 and -.93. will have to see what different stations gas will do. Anyone ever use sunoco 94 octane? Overpriced but maybe it will get me to -1 without blending.
Is it more than vpower 93?
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: sunwolf on April 23, 2015, 08:55:30 AM
Im going to have to do some testing with this. I currently am jumping between -.82 and -.93. will have to see what different stations gas will do. Anyone ever use sunoco 94 octane? Overpriced but maybe it will get me to -1 without blending.
Is it more than vpower 93?
Yes. I never buy Sunoco or Shell because they seem to be so overpriced. Usually around here 93 at any other station is 20 to 40 cents more than regular. At Shell or Sunoco 93 is at least 80 cents more and 94 is just insane for all of one more octane.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on April 23, 2015, 05:28:15 PM
Just a reminder for those typing in PID'S....some devices will auto space after you put in "signed"...this space will cause a flat 0 reading

Rich
Good call, mine did that but I noticed....
Yup...after many entries into the formula area it got me again. As it sat at zero I couldn't wait to reach destination and delete the space.

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 23, 2015, 06:13:12 PM
That would be frustrating!

I put some e85 back in with more 93 and after just ten minutes my LOR was pegged at -1. Gauge is definitely working well and seems to be sensitive enough to trust.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOdded on April 24, 2015, 01:10:30 AM
It's just the latest in a series of excellent custom gauges, ecoboostsho :thumb:
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on April 24, 2015, 05:36:57 AM
It's just the latest in a series of excellent custom gauges, ecoboostsho :thumb:
Actually I have YOU to thank.  The article you posted/found from Cobb tuning was really the key to get me thinking about how this was supposed to work.  So...hats off to you!
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: chrisc321 on April 30, 2015, 08:04:23 PM
Just added this PID and I'm at +.3 in my F-150 on 87.  Will dump in 36 gallons of 93 next week and see what happens!!
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: skippytx on May 04, 2015, 09:07:55 AM
Thanks guys! This is cool.  I've got this setup on my '13 and it just shows -1.00 which I'm assuming is good.   I got the Tire PSI working as well in Torque. 

I'm going to try the LOR on my wife's '14 XSport as I know she sometimes puts 87 in the tank.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: WickedSHO on May 19, 2015, 05:36:27 PM
I want to add this gauge, but can't find it in Torque.

Do I need to add it as a special PID?
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on May 19, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
Yes it is a custom PID. Go to page 1 in this thread or you can go to the stickied thread in the data logging forum and it is in there as well along with details on how to add custom PIDs.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on May 19, 2015, 06:02:13 PM
The holy grail

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=3141.0

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: SHOnUup on May 19, 2015, 06:03:30 PM
Just skimmed 1st page...is the PID there?

Rich

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on May 19, 2015, 06:08:51 PM
Whoops. That would have been a helpful add. I will grab it from the other thread.
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on May 19, 2015, 06:13:38 PM
Posted it in the first thread but for reference here its 2203E8
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on September 29, 2015, 09:40:37 PM
OAR (LOR) explained

http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/ (http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/)
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: glock-coma on September 29, 2015, 09:45:48 PM

OAR (LOR) explained

[url]http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/[/url] ([url]http://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/[/url])
good info, thx
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on September 29, 2015, 09:56:08 PM
More...


http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/ (http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/understanding-knock-and-ignition-corrections-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/)
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: f8tlSHO on December 27, 2015, 12:16:26 PM
when adding this in torque, it asks for minimum and maximum 0,100... should i leave it here or change to a negative number?
Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on December 27, 2015, 12:31:01 PM
It really won't matter if you just have a digital display bit you should technically set it from -1 to 1

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: Gray Brick on December 28, 2015, 12:38:54 AM
If the LOR gage is showing -1 most of the time does that mean the ECU cannot adjust timing any higher for the octane?

Title: Re: Learned Octane Ratio (LOR) Gauge in Torque
Post by: ecoboostsho on December 28, 2015, 06:12:37 AM
Yes that is what we have seen. A few folks have apparently seen blips where its gone more negative but only for a very short time. I have never seen anything more negative than -1 myself.

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