So a charging system Failure message popped up along with the radio/sync system going to battery saver mode. Battery saver kicks on when I turn the car off but leave the radio on. The charging system error pops up with the ignition in the "run" position. Car starts and runs fine with no other symptoms.
I had the same thing a month ago but ended up thinking it was the battery since I had an original 2013 motorcraft. I replaced it with the heavy duty (850 CCA) I think motorcraft and the message went away. Now it popped up again today so I'm pretty sure it isn't the battery...I don't really have anything that should drain the battery when the car is off since my accessories are all on/off with key so to speak. Could the alternator be going or some other module? No CEL and no Codes I can see...at a loss.
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Did you retrain the pcm on the new battery? Try the 30 min neg batt cable disconnect and/or kam reset. Not sure if Forscan will allow you to reset the BMS directly.
Alternators do sometimes fail on these cars, but it could be wiring from the alt to the batt, or a damaged current sensor also.
Quote from: SHOdded on December 23, 2017, 07:32:10 PM
Did you retrain the pcm on the new battery? Try the 30 min neg batt cable disconnect and/or kam reset. Not sure if Forscan will allow you to reset the BMS directly.
Alternators do sometimes fail on these cars, but it could be wiring from the alt to the batt, or a damaged current sensor also.
I did a KAM reset about two weeks ago when I started tuning with Brad but will try again. Thanks for the advice.
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The (BCM) has a tendency to act wonky especially below 40 deg!
How many volts are you seeing during engineering mode ? Z
I'm hoping its not an issue with the modules not going to sleep!
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6955.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6955.0.html)
Quote from: ZSHO on December 23, 2017, 08:15:18 PM
The (BCM) has a tendency to act wonky especially below 40 deg!
How many volts are you seeing during engineering mode ? Z
I'm hoping its not an issue with the modules not going to sleep!
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6955.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6955.0.html)
Forgot about engineering mode! 11.7 volts...
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Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Your alternator or your battery is 11.7 volts?
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:37:31 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Your alternator or your battery is 11.7 volts?
Battery. I get 14.5 with car running.
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:37:31 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Your alternator or your battery is 11.7 volts?
Battery. I get 14.5 with car running.
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You've got a dead battery. 14.5 volts is a little high for an alternator, but it's probably having to work extra hard trying to charge a battery that won't charge.
I think anything below 11.8 volts will set the (BMS) management on!
Frequent and short trips will certainly take a toll on the Battery IMO.
If so take s long cruise and check to see if the voltage improves. Z
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:37:31 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Your alternator or your battery is 11.7 volts?
Battery. I get 14.5 with car running.
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You've got a dead battery. 14.5 volts is a little high for an alternator, but it's probably having to work extra hard trying to charge a battery that won't charge.
Well it's about a month old so that would be weird. I wonder if I've got some parasitic current someplace...or I'll be up for warranty on the battery I guess
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:41:41 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:37:31 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:35:52 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:34:07 PM
Had the same message come up about 2 weeks before i had a dead battery.
Get a multimeter and check the voltage of the battery with the car off. A good battery will read about 12.7 volts. If the battery is good, turn the car on and check the alternator. It should be charging at about 14 volts.
Well mine is at 11.7 which seems low.
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Your alternator or your battery is 11.7 volts?
Battery. I get 14.5 with car running.
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You've got a dead battery. 14.5 volts is a little high for an alternator, but it's probably having to work extra hard trying to charge a battery that won't charge.
Well it's about a month old so that would be weird. I wonder if I've got some parasitic current someplace...or I'll be up for warranty on the battery I guess
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I'll shut down the accessories and go for a hour drive tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks for all the help guys!
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:41:41 PM
Well it's about a month old so that would be weird. I wonder if I've got some parasitic current someplace...or I'll be up for warranty on the battery I guess
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Probably just got a dud. It's not common, but it does happen. Bring it back to the place you got it from and let them test the battery under load. They'll warranty it.
If you think you have a parasitic draw, pull the battery from the car, try to charge it, put it back in, and do a parasitic draw test with a multimeter.
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:41:41 PM
Well it's about a month old so that would be weird. I wonder if I've got some parasitic current someplace...or I'll be up for warranty on the battery I guess
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Probably just got a dud. It's not common, but it does happen. Bring it back to the place you got it from and let them test the battery under load. They'll warranty it.
If you think you have a parasitic draw, pull the battery from the car, try to charge it, put it back in, and do a parasitic draw test with a multimeter.
Cool. I can do that. I've got a charger and a multimeter. Thanks for the help;
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:42:43 PM
I'll shut down the accessories and go for a hour drive tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks for all the help guys!
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I wouldn't keep stressing the alternator with a battery that doesn't charge. Pull the battery and do a slow charge externally.
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 23, 2017, 08:49:42 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 23, 2017, 08:42:43 PM
I'll shut down the accessories and go for a hour drive tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks for all the help guys!
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I wouldn't keep stressing the alternator with a battery that doesn't charge. Pull the battery and do a slow charge externally.
Just took your advice and disconnected it from the car and put it on the charger. Will see if it takes
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Curious on any updates! Thanks. Z
I'm hoping it's something simple especially around the Holiday season!
Quote from: ZSHO on December 24, 2017, 01:32:26 PM
Curious on any updates! Thanks. Z
I'm hoping it's something simple especially around the Holiday season!
Well not sure yet but the battery charged right up and the messages are all gone. So it's either some kind of parasitic draw or a charging system issue...
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 24, 2017, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on December 24, 2017, 01:32:26 PM
Curious on any updates! Thanks. Z
I'm hoping it's something simple especially around the Holiday season!
Well not sure yet but the battery charged right up and the messages are all gone. So it's either some kind of parasitic draw or a charging system issue...
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It still could be the battery. It may charge up, but it also may not be able to hold the charge.
With the charged battery that you now have, check what the alternator is putting out. Should be 14 volts. You need a charged battery to get an accurate alternator reading. If you're putting out 14 volts, your alternator is fine. If the battery is dead again in a week or so, you need a new battery.
That's also assuming you don't have a parastic draw somewhere. Now is the perfect time to check for one.
Quote from: pmezo33 on December 24, 2017, 03:54:47 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 24, 2017, 03:30:05 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on December 24, 2017, 01:32:26 PM
Curious on any updates! Thanks. Z
I'm hoping it's something simple especially around the Holiday season!
Well not sure yet but the battery charged right up and the messages are all gone. So it's either some kind of parasitic draw or a charging system issue...
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It still could be the battery. It may charge up, but it also may not be able to hold the charge.
With the charged battery that you now have, check what the alternator is putting out. Should be 14 volts. You need a charged battery to get an accurate alternator reading. If you're putting out 14 volts, your alternator is fine. If the battery is dead again in a week or so, you need a new battery.
That's also assuming you don't have a parastic draw somewhere. Now is the perfect time to check for one.
Okay. I will keep an eye on it.
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I have also had issues with the(BMS)come on intermittenly in the past even with the upgraded MC BXT-65-850 Battery but since turning off every feature associated with the remote start such as heated seats,defroster,etc plus reducing the amount of time for interior/exterior lighting to the lowest,least setting upon exiting the vehicle has helped and has never come back! Z
I found this over @ the Taurus Forum.
http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115-5th-6th-gen-engine-drivetrain/257642-battery-keeps-dying.html#/topics/257642?page=2 (http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115-5th-6th-gen-engine-drivetrain/257642-battery-keeps-dying.html#/topics/257642?page=2)
Quote from: ZSHO on December 24, 2017, 05:40:49 PM
I have also had issues with the(BMS)come on intermittenly in the past even with the upgraded MC BXT-65-850 Battery but since turning off every feature associated with the remote start such as heated seats,defroster,etc plus reducing the amount of time for interior/exterior lighting to the lowest,least setting upon exiting the vehicle has helped and has never come back! Z
I found this over @ the Taurus Forum.
http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115-5th-6th-gen-engine-drivetrain/257642-battery-keeps-dying.html#/topics/257642?page=2 (http://www.taurusclub.com/forum/115-5th-6th-gen-engine-drivetrain/257642-battery-keeps-dying.html#/topics/257642?page=2)
I went ahead and disabled the majority of the remote start features (heated steering wheel, seat, rear defrost...) and have been monitoring it for a bit with Forscan. The timing of all of this started about the time I've been letting my car warm up in the garage thanks to MN sub zero temps so you may be on to something. So far so good as the voltage seems to be stable at 12.8V with the car off. It does jump to 14.6 though with the car on and it just stays there which seems odd. I remember when the battery was new that voltage would vary between 13.6 and 14.5 as the battery needed charged. I found "Charge State" in Forscan but I'm not sure what that is really measuring (it says 55% currently). I'm also monitoring current usage car off and on just for fun...if this does indeed turn out to be the issue it's a little disappointing as I think the car should be designed to handle all of those options on but so be it.
I will be keeping an eye on it and see how it goes.
Yeah system capacity is an issue. So if you are running a lot of demand with remote start, available power is diverted away from the battery and to the aux systems. Considering that the car is really idling when remote started, and that the max alternator output doesn't happen until AFTER 2,000+ rpm (or 75-80 mph). You would need to put in a rebuilt alternator that raises the entire curve, I would say 1/3 to 1/2. And that is a LOT.
For a 2007 Edge, for example
78/143 amp (max) @ 620-2500 engine rpm @ normal engine temperature
(https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8707.0;attach=16458;image)
I forgot to mention besides deactivating the above mentioned features for remote start,also found the remote start feature to put extra stress on the battery due to the blower motor coming on (Full blast automatically) upon remote startup!
So essentially cutting down on the remote start feature should ultimately help out in the long run since our vehicles are virtually identical!!
I wish there was a way to deactivate the blower motor from coming on full blast!!!!!
BTW by following the above mentioned procedure the(BMS)has never come back on!! :) hope this helps any. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on December 29, 2017, 10:03:55 AM
I forgot to mention besides deactivating the above mentioned features for remote start,also found the remote start feature to put extra stress on the battery due to the blower motor coming on full blast automatically upon remote startup!
So essentially cutting down on the remote start feature should ultimately help out in the long run IMO!
I wish there was a way to deactivate the blower motor from coming on full blast!!!!! Z
Yes I've noticed that as well but with the other stuff off I'm hoping that will do it. Thanks again for the help everyone!
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 29, 2017, 10:15:51 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on December 29, 2017, 10:03:55 AM
I forgot to mention besides deactivating the above mentioned features for remote start,also found the remote start feature to put extra stress on the battery due to the blower motor coming on full blast automatically upon remote startup!
So essentially cutting down on the remote start feature should ultimately help out in the long run IMO!
I wish there was a way to deactivate the blower motor from coming on full blast!!!!! Z
Yes I've noticed that as well but with the other stuff off I'm hoping that will do it. Thanks again for the help everyone!
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I also lowered the startup time to 10 min on remote start!
Best of luck and Happy healthy 2018! Z
one more thing: auto headlamps.
If you turn off the automatic climate control and just use the fan manually, it will not run at full blast. I love having the heated seats and wheel on when I remote start or start with my phone but there is no need for the fan to run at high speed.
Quote from: Brucelinc on December 29, 2017, 10:37:26 AM
If you turn off the automatic climate control and just use the fan manually, it will not run at full blast. I love having the heated seats and wheel on when I remote start or start with my phone but there is no need for the fan to run at high speed.
So the issue has returned. After driving for about a week and then letting the car sit most of the weekend I got in and drove to work without issue but as soon as I shut the car off it put the radio/sync system in shutoff to save battery. I fired up Forscan and added every battery related PID could fine. The battery charge state was only 33%. The battery voltage it sees with the car on is a solid 14.6v and after driving for about 45 minutes the battery charge state was back to 39%. The car is even able to charge the battery at idle so it doesn't seem like a too much load problem. Battery voltage with car off but ignition on was 12.9v which seems high enough? but still got the immediate radio shutoff message. It seems like the battery is taking a charge but it either can't keep it or something is draining it. I did read all about the BMS system and I never did reset it with Forscan so my current plan is to fully charge the battery out of the car, run the BMS reset, and then monitor the car non stop with Forscan to see if the battery charge state is mysteriously dropping overnight. If this still occurs its off to get my basically new battery tested.
I included a screenshot of the PIDs...
Any other thoughts are welcome!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/494d7a66156e482a3bf8c4364d3122d6.jpg)
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A well thought out plan of action! Only today, I put a battery tender 3A on my optima red 34, tender said fully charged, solar ba7?said different: 12.09V and 750CCAs. Ummm NO. So charging it out of the car with an intelligent charger is a good choice.
Hmm! Whats the Build date? Earlier version!! Mine has a 11/12 !
I know there was some earlier issues with the positive battery terminals preventing the modules from falling asleep IIRC! Z
I'll have to check my build date at some point. I charged the battery up and then did the BMS reset with Forscan which definitely worked as my battery age is now zero. State of charge went from 39% to 88% and then rose to 91% overnight on it's own. By the time it got to work it was at 93% so that's a pretty good trend. Will keep monitoring it and see what happens...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180103/c283be450515222b69b19fff120d50aa.jpg)
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In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
Quote from: SHOdded on January 03, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
I do indeed have the toughmax 850 and wasn't aware it was an AGM battery. Found it in Forscan and the BMS reset seems to have detected that it is an AGM battery although the CCA is a bit off...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/2bc8d8f8a8517fff8a243a758f72277a.jpg)
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The CCA is way off, by about 20%. Possibly a bad battery? What is the battery voltage? Worth adding a bit of distilled water?
How does forscan know what battery is in the car? And I didn't think agm batteries could have water added or even used water?
I really like the forscan thing and the programming people are doing with as built data...we need someone to do some good how to's on it
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 05, 2018, 09:03:40 PM
How does forscan know what battery is in the car? And I didn't think agm batteries could have water added or even used water?
I really like the forscan thing and the programming people are doing with as built data...we need someone to do some good how to's on it
I don't think Forscan knows it's supposed to be coming out of the BCM. I'm not sure how the car could tell the difference between an AGM battery and lead acid and I don't think I can add water but will check.
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Quote from: SHOdded on January 03, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
Did some quick research and I'm not sure the BXT-850 from Motorcraft is AGM from what I'm reading? Any chance you have a link showing it is?
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 05, 2018, 09:12:53 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 03, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
Did some quick research and I'm not sure the BXT-850 from Motorcraft is AGM from what I'm reading? Any chance you have a link showing it is?
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It should read AGM IIRC! Z
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,8021.msg121576.html#msg121576 (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,8021.msg121576.html#msg121576)
Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 05, 2018, 08:19:04 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 03, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
I do indeed have the toughmax 850 and wasn't aware it was an AGM battery. Found it in Forscan and the BMS reset seems to have detected that it is an AGM battery although the CCA is a bit off...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/2bc8d8f8a8517fff8a243a758f72277a.jpg)
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I thought the type of battery is programmed in with an IDS or forscan, not learned. I still stand by the notion of disabling the BMS so you stop beating batteries up :)
Good idea. Although, AGM batteries charge differently than SLA batteries, so might actually be an advantage if the BMS is working correctly. IDK.
Quote from: jbeez on January 06, 2018, 03:16:07 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 05, 2018, 08:19:04 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 03, 2018, 03:33:32 PM
In Forscan, do you see a spot for telling the PCM what type of battery it is? On some vehicles, you can tell it an AGM battery is installed for example (like the MC ToughMax 65-850).
I do indeed have the toughmax 850 and wasn't aware it was an AGM battery. Found it in Forscan and the BMS reset seems to have detected that it is an AGM battery although the CCA is a bit off...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/2bc8d8f8a8517fff8a243a758f72277a.jpg)
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I thought the type of battery is programmed in with an IDS or forscan, not learned. I still stand by the notion of disabling the BMS so you stop beating batteries up :)
I couldn't find anyplace in Forscan to set the battery type. The write capabilities on the BCM don't show that as a settable item.
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I should point out that after the BMS reset I haven't had a reoccurrence of the issue so it may be solved...time will tell!
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