Got everything installed and was testing out the pump. Looks like the supply side is fine, but the delivery side is leaking horribly. Will make a better seal if I apply gentle pressure at an angle (kind of like wedging it into place) but isn't much good to me at the moment. Any ideas where I should start troubleshooting? Can I fix it somehow or should I contact torrie for a replacement?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksSxlh9KFs0&feature=youtube_gdata_playe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksSxlh9KFs0&feature=youtube_gdata_playe)
I'm no methanol veteran, but I wouldn't take the chance of a flammable liquid spraying inside the engine compartment if your "fix" lets go, get a new pump.
Aren't the fittings quick connect? If so, make sure the plastic hose is cut straight and has no burrs on the outside edge. Then make sure it is pushed in as far as it can go. Also make sure there are no severe bends, especially near the pump and near the spray nozzle. The kit should have a surplus of the plastic black hose. I suppose it is possible that a fitting is defective, but unlikely. Unless the leak is on the pump side of the fitting, you don't need a new pump. If so the pump housing would have to be cracked.
I was the crash test dummy for this system from Torrie, and I hooked up and unhooked the hoses from pump dozens of times. I would use a separate section of hose to pump out my regular windshield solution, and then fill with my own methanol blend or "Boost Juice", for consistency when either testing tunes or dragging. Never ever had a leak.
If you are using windshield washer solution or "Boost Juice" that is 49% or less methanol, it will not burn. Anything over 50% is considered Flammable.
Ya I'll mess with it again this afternoon. Hopefully it is as simple as cutting the tubing as straight as possible. I'll update this thread again this evening with what I find out :)
I also had a bit of a struggle to get it in there and seal properly but nothing a bit of elbow grease can't fix.
Mine leaked as well when I first got it installed and I was using just about a 100% meth mix so I made sure to get that fixed right away. Pulled the hose, recut and shoved it back in, no leaks after that.
I replaced my fittings , when I put a 7 Gal tank in my bed, I couldn't stop the leaks
Ok, I was able to stop the leaking. I pulled the tubing out....recut it and straight as I could (it was pretty straight before)...and then reinstalled the tubing "firmly". It now no longer leaks.
But now there is a new "thing" happening. Instead of the pump being "on" when activated....it is doing this pulsation thing where it very quickly goes on / off / on / off / on / off. I have adjusted the screw on the pump that adjusts the pressure a full 3 turns clockwise. That should have me sitting right at 120 psi. Now it does the same thing except the pulses are quicker.
Is this normal? When I tested the unit before (when I had the leaking) it was a constant on type operation. Now that it is fully pressurized and no longer leaking it is doing the pulsation thing.
Do I need a larger orifice on the nozzle? For example going from the #7 (came with the kit) to a #10? I am going to be installing a check valve and in-line filter....will this have any effect?
I 'd contact where you bought your meth kit about changing preassure and nozzle sizes , you don't want to quench the motor. I run 2 nozzles and run about 250 psi with my system.
I also installed the filter with no issues. I increased the nozzle from #7 to # 10. This required a different tune from Torrie, as does any change in % of methanol.
I have never gotten any pulsing. When does this occur?
It happened whenever I would test the system using the button on the side of the black box where the boost line connects (I did not take any video last night before I put the car back together). I have also tested the system out by actually driving the car and getting into boost a little and it seems to be working ok (less methanol in the tank after the test run, haha). From the driver seat I can't tell if the system is pulsating or not....I would assume that it is.
I'll try to get some video of this in the next day or so. My check valve and in-line filter will be here tomorrow, so when I install those it will be a good time to take some video.
My guess is that this is how this pump is designed to run. It's probably just a cheap pump. If that's how it is supposed to run then that's fine...I just wanted to make sure before I just assumed it was.
EcoBrick Bob - how much boost were you seeing after you installed the methanol kit? Quick test using that Torque app last night after I got everything together....I want to say that I hit 16 psi. This was with Torrie's 3-bar WM kit tune. I haven't logged anything using the SCT handheld and laptop yet....was planning on doing that after I got the check valve and filter in place so that the logs and retune by Torrie were with exactly what I would normally have installed.
I do data logging with meth turned off then a run with it on and watch afr's to see it working
These pumps are made by Shurflo. Almost everyone in the W/M business uses that brand of pump. Some companies like Alkyl Control claim to take them apart and also test them.
As for surging, if you hear it pulsing some that is fine. To me surging is when it would not provide consistent flow. If you have engine on and push button, the engine should react by RPM's dropping. I also created a light that comes on when pump is running. That tells me there is power to the pump, created when boost hits around 8 PSI.
Torrie and I were constantly changing the tunes to improve my ET's. I also was running a 3 bar sensor in the intake manifold. Thus I saw boost pressures as high as 20 psi, for short periods of time, usually at the high end of 2nd gear. I would have to look back thru saved logs, but as I remember, once at boost in a wot run at the strip, that I would see boost always above 14-15 psi. Due to small turbos, it was a bit peaky. The big thing you need to watch when logging is that your Lambda numbers don't go too high. I liked to see them at or below .82 for both banks. Also Fuel Rail Pressure (FRP) is extremely important. I like to keep it above 1,200 psi,. However, when spraying 70% or higher methanol concentrations, the methanol burns and acts as additional fuel, besides cooling the charge, so the real key then is the steady Lambda readings. Any Lambda spike means a lean condition, which is a No...No... when running high boost.
Also, from what I understand, the boost number alone doesn't mean you are maximizing your engine's potential. I'm sure others have lots to say on this so please chime in.
I see 20-21 lbs of boost before using meth, not spikes either
Pickup EB Engine has different turbos from what I understand, as well as variable valve timing on the exhaust.
Quote from: CoreyMS on August 14, 2013, 12:32:49 AM
That's the pressure switch making the pulsating, the pump reaches the pressure setting of the screw, cuts out then repeats to maintain the pressure set. That's how the pump works. If you notice in some advertisements some company's are selling "recirculation pumps", they don't pulse. The sureflo is supposed to.
The forum posts and random info I've found while google searching seems to back up what you just said. It's just how the pump was designed. I'll still take some video though...make sure it is pulsating the "normal" way. Hopefully this thread will help others who are just as mechanically inclined as myself (which is not very much, haha) with installation and troubleshooting their own water/meth system.
It does pulse per this definition, though from the original explanation, I thought it was doing something else. While I didn't lose pressure much in testing, adding a filter with a check valve (mine is AEM), it won't turn on and off like that, ie. pulse.
Later I changed pumps to one with potentially higher pressures, to make sure I was getting enough juice. However, that was likely a $200. waste, as the key is to make sure the spray is atomized thru the nozzle... higher pressure pump may spray more volume though. All numbers you see from suppliers are based on amount of liquid used per hr at 100 PSI.
The pump pulsates and or runs constantly. Depending on how the signal I.E. pulse width signal and or boost initiates it , at least thats how the Snow Perf meth injection is set up with the surflow pump I have
Torrie's W/M system just uses the boost sensor to turn pump either on or off. So... unless pump is leaking, it shouldn't pulse per say where it goes on and off. Since there is no way to actually test the pump under boost with the hood up (at least that I know of), the only way to get pump to work is to push button with engine running at idle. And you want to do this as little as possible so as not to flood the engine with w/m solution.
With hood down and under WOT conditions, I don't know how one could tell if pump was actually pulsing on and off. My light shows continuous power to pump under wot conditions. Only takes a split second for pump to activate at 8 psi. Boost builds very quickly.
If one has a boost controller that varies voltage to the pump based on RPM and boost like Alky Control systems and many Devils Own and Snow, I could see the pump possibly pulsing, but even under those conditions, it would seem that the pump would just run slower and produce less psi for spray. I guess I don't see any benefit in having the pump pulse, simply because one would want a continuous smooth psi curve, and not one with up and down pressures when under wot conditions.
Am I missing something?
Another thing to note... Alky Control wants their W/M pumps to be mounted below the outlet of both the reservoir and the spray nozzle, as this keeps the pump continuously under prime via gravity. This is definitely a good safety procedure. But... like anything electric or electronic, there is no guarantee that a boost controller will shut off when off wot. A boost switch is less likely to fail as it is less complex.
I took some video of the pulsation as to better illustrate what I'm experiencing. Take a look and let me know what you think. My knee jerk reaction is to put a bigger nozzle on...but I dunno....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKB3ElOr9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcKB3ElOr9Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Btw - I'm only using washer fluid that has methanol, water and a tiny bit of blue dye. So don't be alarmed at the blue color, haha. I'll end up mixing my own later, but for now at least during the testing of this system that's what I'm using .
Is the spray from the nozzle also surging?
Remember, all these Shurflo pumps work the same way.
When you go to a larger nozzle, you have to have adequate pressure to atomize the liquid coming out of it. This pump should be fine if you're sure you have adjusted it to max psi, but I did go to a higher pressure pump, and turned it all the way to full psi.
I have adjusted the pump to it's full output (2 more clockwise turns of that screw) so I should be at 160psi according to the install literature I have. The surging is still there, but it is so fast that it is a fairly constant flow. I am confident that it is working as designed and everything is ok.
I have datalogged the car and went through a couple of back and forths via email with Torrie to tweak the tune. The car runs great and feels very strong.
Only thing I might change in the near future is to change to a dedicated reservoir for the water/meth mixture instead of using the washer reservoir.
Now I just need to find a free weekend so I can take the car to the track! haha
I turned 1/4 turn today should be about 230 psi, it started. To quench the motor when letting off gas, primary nozzle is a #60 so I just raised the level to 8 lbs when it starts, no problem so far.
I did the dedicated tank 7 gals , last quite awhile.
The best solution is to use your current Windshield Washer Pump for W/M and add a small reservoir for spraying windshield fluid. Actually, unless you are like BPD who is on his car WOT more than not, why add a tank. If you continue to use WWF as W/M spray, it is really cheap. Even when I was spraying 70+% methanol, at $3.00 a gal at Cedar Falls Raceway, I never added a tank. Straight methanol really cleans windshields great!!! Smells even better, and if bugs are really bad, just light the stuff on fire and burn'em off!!!!
When you guys are logging with your meth running are you seeing a lower duty cycle on your fuel PID? Even with mine on I'm still seeing it hit 48%.
Quote from: redsand on August 21, 2013, 11:55:00 PM
When you guys are logging with your meth running are you seeing a lower duty cycle on your fuel PID? Even with mine on I'm still seeing it hit 48%.
Comparing my two logs I did - one with the performance tune without meth.....and one with the performance tune with meth...
Im hitting .48 on each (isn't that 96% of the pump's rated value?....not 48%?)
So the fuel delivery isnt being cut back....but the water/meth is being supplemented. Allows for more aggressive timing...more boost...etc.
tuned without water/meth
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bZWhfcEJ4dWc0bXM/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bZWhfcEJ4dWc0bXM/edit?usp=sharing)
tuned with water/meth
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bc215amg5VVE5elU/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_yXtQdpOi1bc215amg5VVE5elU/edit?usp=sharing)
I still have room to grow with my methanol tune. I'll keep it as is for now...I like the idea of a good safety margin on my daily driver
That's the lift pump (in tank fuel pump) you guys are seeing and that is going to be maxed out all the time during WOT. You need to be watching the fuel rail pressure, I can't get that in SCT but I can in torque. I've asked Tim Roi at SCT to add it, we'll see if they can.
I see FRP in my SCT logs.. I use an SCT 3. Or am I missing something? When FRP gets below around 1200, I got goosebumps, even when spraying a high concentration of Methanol.