So I had the car in for some brake system work at the dealer a week or so back. I had them take a look at the cooling system as after a longer drive, I get the distinct smell of coolant. Now the fluid level, when taken to the dealer was on the low side; at the bottom-most acceptable cold level, when warm. They topped it off, but I'm still getting the smell. I've also noticed that the car runs pretty warm, especially in traffic. I have an Ultragauge, and consistently see 220* in traffic, which seems high to me (even though it doesn't register on the dash's idiot gauge.) And it's not like I'm in warm/hot climate, it still Chicago spring, and we're still in the 40's, 50's and 60's.
Dealer did a pressure test, and the system holds pressure. Worthwhile to replace the reservoir cap?
Quote from: Primalzer on May 26, 2017, 03:50:55 PM
So I had the car in for some brake system work at the dealer a week or so back. I had them take a look at the cooling system as after a longer drive, I get the distinct smell of coolant. Now the fluid level, when taken to the dealer was on the low side; at the bottom-most acceptable cold level, when warm. They topped it off, but I'm still getting the smell. I've also noticed that the car runs pretty warm, especially in traffic. I have an Ultragauge, and consistently see 220* in traffic, which seems high to me (even though it doesn't register on the dash's idiot gauge.) And it's not like I'm in warm/hot climate, it still Chicago spring, and we're still in the 40's, 50's and 60's.
Dealer did a pressure test, and the system holds pressure. Worthwhile to replace the reservoir cap?
Monitor the fluid level... the smell could be from one of the techs spilling it everywhere... it takes a long time for that smell to go away...
As the motor warms up so does the smell...
Where is the needle on the temp gauge?
I will agree with it taking a long time for the smell to go away. If you are running 220, that is not normal. Not anything to be overly worried about, but higher than a properly filled and operating system should be from the numbers I see. Does it ever cool back down all of the sudden and then go back up? I am wondering about an air pocket in the system. I had one I believe, but it worked itself out after I replaced the thermostat.
220* is that Cyl head temp or coolant temp?
I would make sure that coolant looks absolutely clean, because the water pump does tend to let go on these Duratec engines. Then it is a $2K+ repair bill to fix it, assuming you don't drive it after the engine overheats.
Is there even a separate coolant sensor on these engines? There isn't on the NA 3.5. There IS a cylinder head temperature sensor, and the coolant temperature is a derived value, I think.
If the techs did a pressure test and it's holding, there shouldn't be any leaks. It's a closed system, so if it holds vacuum, the system is closed.
You said this happens in traffic, right? Next time it's happening, pull over and check to make sure the fans are going.
This doesn't explain the smell of coolant, but are you 100% sure it's coolant that your smelling?
Yes, it's definitely a coolant smell, and the smell happened BEFORE it was at the dealer, so I can rule out coolant spill. I've had a few cars that have had various...coolant issues :picard: so I'm fairly well versed in the smell of coolant related issues leaking/burning
I'm not sure where the temperature is derived from. All the gauge states that it's coolant temp. I'm not sure where or how it is getting that temp. The idiot gauge on the dash usually sits at about 1/3 to 2/5 the way up the gauge, but when the temp is high, it's at about 2/3. Still way in the normal range, but higher than normal. When the temp hits about 220, it seems like the fan finally will kick on, and the temp will drop to around 200, but then will rise again. Usually don't sit in traffic long enough for it to do that cycle more than once, maybe twice. Once I start moving, the temps generally start falling. Maybe the fans would be something to investigate
Definitely, confirm fan operation. I know I have various PIDs available for monitoring on the Edge with Forscan Lite, one of them being fan duty cycle. That's one easy way to tell. 190F thermostat and 210F fan activation on the Edge. So it would seem fans should come on the EB at 200F, but I will have to dblcheck.
Thermostat Opening Temperatures
Starts to open 82°C (180°F)
Fully open 95°C (203°F)
Will do, and report back.
I will probably replace the reservoir cap, just for giggles, to rule that out.
Quote from: Primalzer on May 30, 2017, 11:46:43 AM
Will do, and report back.
I will probably replace the reservoir cap, just for giggles, to rule that out.
2/3's up on the gauge is definitely overheating. It should sit right around the middle, maybe slightly below middle. Anything over that is overheating.
If this were my car, I'd rent a pressure test kit from the auto parts store and do the test myself. This way I know for sure there's no leak. You're usually able to test the reservoir cap with those kits as well, so that will save you from having to buy one of those if you don't need one. That would be the first thing I do.
Once you're 100% sure your system is holding pressure and your cap is fine, I'd focus on that fan. I've had cars where they're good and then they just intermittently stop working. Some times it's working and other times it's not.
Are you having to add coolant to the system at all? At least anymore than you initially have? Is it holding it's level?
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 30, 2017, 12:30:34 PM
Quote from: Primalzer on May 30, 2017, 11:46:43 AM
Will do, and report back.
I will probably replace the reservoir cap, just for giggles, to rule that out.
2/3's up on the gauge is definitely overheating. It should sit right around the middle, maybe slightly below middle. Anything over that is overheating.
If this were my car, I'd rent a pressure test kit from the auto parts store and do the test myself. This way I know for sure there's no leak. You're usually able to test the reservoir cap with those kits as well, so that will save you from having to buy one of those if you don't need one. That would be the first thing I do.
Once you're 100% sure your system is holding pressure and your cap is fine, I'd focus on that fan. I've had cars where they're good and then they just intermittently stop working. Some times it's working and other times it's not.
Are you having to add coolant to the system at all? At least anymore than you initially have? Is it holding it's level?
No, I haven't added any. It was low when I brought it to the dealer, and they topped it off. It's only been a couple weeks, so I'll keep checking cold levels and see where it goes from there.
If I get some time this weekend, I'll throw on a pressure gauge. I bought a new cap already (hey it was $8, not the end of the world, and some nice peace of mind).
I have to start figuring out how to test fan functionality. Any of you guys have ideas, aside from stopping when the car is getting too warm to see if it's running?
Just incase the fans do end up being the issue, it looks like the fan type/style changed from pre-2012 to 2012-now. The pre-2012 fans are dual's...as pictured, and the 2013+ are also dual's, but are they any better? I know, like the front brakes, there is some cross compatibility.
(http://www.rockauto.com/info/48/BA8Z8C607E-FRO__ra_p.jpg)
I've always just looked at the fans. They're either working or they're not. One will always turn on when the ac is on, but the other one may not turn on, so make sure they're both going with the ac on. Just something to keep in mind when looking.
And just as a comparison, I just got off the highway and my car has been idling for about 10 minutes. Torque pro is telling me my coolant temp is a steady 192 degrees.
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 30, 2017, 03:17:19 PM
I've always just looked at the fans. They're either working or they're not. One will always turn on when the ac is on, but the other one may not turn on, so make sure they're both going with the ac on. Just something to keep in mind when looking.
And just as a comparison, I just got off the highway and my car has been idling for about 10 minutes. Torque pro is telling me my coolant temp is a steady 192 degrees.
I'm sure the Torque app is getting the temp reading the same place as the Ultragauge is.
I'll try to get stuck in traffic and see what I can see/find.
No way to get stuck in traffic in the Windy City. LOL. Looking forward to discoveries ...
LOL oh I definitely can find a place to get stuck...my route home just doesn't always have tons of traffic, I may have to go out of my way to get stuck
Ok got myself stuck in some traffic, didn't even need to go out of my way!
For the first half, temps stayed strong, sub-185*. Then about halfway through (15 minutes) temps started to rise. Turned off the AC, and temps continued to climb, topping out at about 210. Parked the car and let it idle and got it up to 215. Jumped out of the car, and neither fan was running at all. Huh, turned on the AC, and both fans came on...
Thoughts?
Get a new radiator fan.
Odd. Check the fan module connectors and the connectors at the PCM. Might be a clue there.
Quote from: SHOdded on May 30, 2017, 08:53:59 PM
Odd. Check the fan module connectors and the connectors at the PCM. Might be a clue there.
I've had the same exact thing happen with my last MKZ before this MKS. Fans work sometimes and they don't others. They work with the a/c, but the temps would sometimes go up in traffic. I eventually just replaced the fan and it solved the problem.
Looks like it'll be another trip to the dealer. Gotta get my monies worth out of this extended warranty! Fan is ~$160 on RockAuto and probably at least a couple hours labor, definitely worth the $100 deductible...plus I'm sure I can convince them when I brought it in before, and they investigated, that that should count towards the deductible as it's the same issue
Good strategy. Nice that the fans are so much cheaper than for the Edge. LOL.
Little update: Talked to the dealer, and he said he wouldn't be able to do anything unless the idiot gauge on the dash gets to the red. I REALLY don't want to wait until that occurs...220 is too hot @SHOdded would you be able to confirm the 3.5 EB Flex fan activation? In theory it has the 190* stat.
So a quick internet search shows the cooling fans for the radiator to be a common failure on the 2010-2012 Ford Flex... I am surprised the dealer is not willing to work with you on it...
Honestly I would take it in, let it idle in front of them to show them when the temp gauge gets past halfway the fans don't kick on...
I'm looking at my chilton manual for my car. It's not giving me any info on specific temps when the fan turns on. All it's giving me is the thermostat starts to open at 180 degrees and it's fully open at 203 degrees. Nothing about the fan.
I'd be very hesitant to allow your car's temp to get up there. High heat and aluminum heads are not a good combination. Anything above the middle of the gauge and I'm turning the car off because it's overheating. If this were me, I'd really be pushing Ford to replace those fans. Have they actually seen the car overheating or are they just taking your word for it at this point?
Here's a PDF of the DTCs to run through with cooling issues if you want to take a look. It's for a 2010 MKS, but it's probably the same thing for your car.
Coolant temp Sensor!!!. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on June 01, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
Coolant temp Sensor!!!. Z
Wouldn't he be getting specific CEL's for a bad sensor? Doesn't seem to be the case here.
Quote from: pmezo33 on June 01, 2017, 01:41:20 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on June 01, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
Coolant temp Sensor!!!. Z
Wouldn't he be getting specific CEL's for a bad sensor? Doesn't seem to be the case here.
True,but these cars are so stubborn and do not emit codes that easily. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on June 01, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
Coolant temp Sensor!!!. Z
Would I be getting errant signals on my OBD gauge and dash gauge if the temp sensor were bad?
Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT) Sensor — 3.5L GTDI
(http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t597/PerfA_ZN0W/2010-up/Cylinder%20Head%20Temperature%20CHT%20Sensor%20mdash%203-5L%20GTDI_zpsewaaucdi.jpg) (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/PerfA_ZN0W/media/2010-up/Cylinder%20Head%20Temperature%20CHT%20Sensor%20mdash%203-5L%20GTDI_zpsewaaucdi.jpg.html)
Item Part Number Description
1 14A464 Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT) sensor electrical connector
2 6G004 CHT sensor
3 W503274 Ground wire-to-engine front cover bolt
Remove the Air Cleaner (ACL) outlet pipe and the ACL . For additional information, refer to Section 303-12 .
Position the ACL -to-RH turbocharger intake tube aside. For additional information, refer to Intake Air System Components — Exploded View in Section 303-12 .
Remove the ground wire-to-engine front cover bolt.
Disconnect the Cylinder Head Temperature (CHT) sensor electrical connector.
Remove and discard the CHT sensor.
To install, tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).
To install, reverse the removal procedure.
Do not reuse the CHT sensor. Install a new sensor.
Quote from: Primalzer on June 01, 2017, 10:58:54 AM
Little update: Talked to the dealer, and he said he wouldn't be able to do anything unless the idiot gauge on the dash gets to the red. I REALLY don't want to wait until that occurs...220 is too hot @SHOdded would you be able to confirm the 3.5 EB Flex fan activation? In theory it has the 190* stat.
Give me your strategy and i will try to look tonight....many stock tunes have the fans set to come on full at 224 and nothing below that
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 01, 2017, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: Primalzer on June 01, 2017, 10:58:54 AM
Little update: Talked to the dealer, and he said he wouldn't be able to do anything unless the idiot gauge on the dash gets to the red. I REALLY don't want to wait until that occurs...220 is too hot @SHOdded would you be able to confirm the 3.5 EB Flex fan activation? In theory it has the 190* stat.
Give me your strategy and i will try to look tonight....many stock tunes have the fans set to come on full at 224 and nothing below that
Pardon my ignorance, what is the strategy and how do I get it to you...? Haha, fairly new to the EcoBoost realm
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 26, 2017, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: Primalzer on May 26, 2017, 03:50:55 PM
So I had the car in for some brake system work at the dealer a week or so back. I had them take a look at the cooling system as after a longer drive, I get the distinct smell of coolant. Now the fluid level, when taken to the dealer was on the low side; at the bottom-most acceptable cold level, when warm. They topped it off, but I'm still getting the smell. I've also noticed that the car runs pretty warm, especially in traffic. I have an Ultragauge, and consistently see 220* in traffic, which seems high to me (even though it doesn't register on the dash's idiot gauge.) And it's not like I'm in warm/hot climate, it still Chicago spring, and we're still in the 40's, 50's and 60's.
Dealer did a pressure test, and the system holds pressure. Worthwhile to replace the reservoir cap?
Monitor the fluid level... the smell could be from one of the techs spilling it everywhere... it takes a long time for that smell to go away...
As the motor warms up so does the smell...
Where is the needle on the temp gauge?
A VERY long time.. I spilled maybe 1/2 a cup doing my thermostat swap. And I still smell it after a nice alcohol/windex bath in the morning.
Quote from: Primalzer on June 02, 2017, 08:35:32 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 01, 2017, 07:09:34 PM
Quote from: Primalzer on June 01, 2017, 10:58:54 AM
Little update: Talked to the dealer, and he said he wouldn't be able to do anything unless the idiot gauge on the dash gets to the red. I REALLY don't want to wait until that occurs...220 is too hot @SHOdded would you be able to confirm the 3.5 EB Flex fan activation? In theory it has the 190* stat.
Give me your strategy and i will try to look tonight....many stock tunes have the fans set to come on full at 224 and nothing below that
Pardon my ignorance, what is the strategy and how do I get it to you...? Haha, fairly new to the EcoBoost realm
OK, figured out what the strategy is, but I don't think I have any way of getting it to you, without a tuner, correct?
In other news, threw on a new rad/expansion tank cap.
Correct, need a tuning device to pull the current strategy code from the PCM. Might be physically on the PCM or in the vicinity, but no way to know if that stategy is current.
I don't think Forscan Lite pulls that info, but I'd have to check.
Let's see how the new cap does. The water pump does have a weep hole. The smell might be from coolant escaping via that route.
Coolant smell is less pronounced, but temps still do creep up when the AC is not on. When keeping an eye on the temps, it does go up to about 215, and then back down to 190-195 and cycles back up. Could that be a stock 190 t-stat? I get conflicting information on what the stock temperature for the t-stat, either 190 or 180.
Also, I picked up a used LME myCal, it hasn't been "unlocked" but should it be able to pull the strategy still?
Sounds like a stock tstat to me. I believe the cooling fans come on around 220F.
Might want to take the bellypan off and check the waterpump weephole. If that looks good, most likely a hose-related issue, or the radiator has a pinhole leak. Neither of these is common at all, but maybe some work done in the past is not holding up. Also, check the degas bottle thoroughly for cracks, as that was an issue on some Fusions in years past.
I'll be underneath hopefully tonight or tomorrow night for an oil change anyways, so I'll take a gander.
Everything looked clean underneath last night and the coolant tank level has remained steady on the high side while either cold or hot. Maybe I'm just imagining the smell. :bangin:
I would keep an eye on it but not worry till some concrete evidence surfaces or symptoms get worse.