Hey guys,
I am building a list of parts needed to complete a "performance" fuel line install. Any help would be appreciated. I will also put any tools I find required for testing etc here.
Fuel line upgrade:
3/8 female spring lock to -6 AN - Spring Lock Adapter (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-640853)
Russell -6 AN Proflex Hose - Russell Hose (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-632090)
Russell -6 AN 90 - Russell 90 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-610165)
Russell -6 AN Straight - Russell Straight (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-610025)
Russell -6 AN Coupler - Russell Coupler (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-660353)
Diagnostic tools:
OTC OTC518527 3/8 Hairpin adapter (Gives you standard schrader) (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007TN12WQ/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1AUFI5NHGNZ61)
Putting together a "poor mans" adapter. Rather make my own that I know won't leak. For any fuel related hoses/fittings, you can use JIC fittings over the aluminum AN fittings. They are generally cheaper and much harder to strip etc (heavy duty).
Fuel line to NPT (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/RUS0/640690/N1450.oap?ck=Search_N1450_-1_-1&pt=N1450&ppt=C0266)
Since I have a spare working LPFP I'm going to put it in a bucket of water and supply it 12 volts and measure the gpm. I don't think these numbers exist anywhere. I'll then repeat the process in the car and measure the gpm by removing the spring lock fitting going to the hpfp and compare results. That will save me replacing the line if the gpm is reasonably in spec.
What are you guys getting for WOT LPFP pressure? From the SCT logs mine starts out at about 108 PSI and goes down to about 96 PSI at the top of the rpm range.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 13, 2013, 11:17:57 PM
I've been thinking there are fueling differences between the 2 gens of turbo SHO. I routinely see 2500+PSI at the rail....I've seen almost 2700 PSI a couple of times. This conflicts with Ford's stated max rail pressure of 2150 PSI and the experiences of other Ecoboosters here.
I found out some fuel system info from my buddy who works at the Ford dealership.
2013's have a different LPFP than the 2010-12's.
1st gen LPFP run at a fixed 65PSI
2013+ is variable that runs between 51 and 75 psi.
Taurus 2.0 ecoboost uses 2013 setup also.
Non Turbo 3.5 uses 2010-12 SHO fuel setup.
He said he will continue to research as he has time.
If anyone has any specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.
Seems like my numbers are way off of the above.
Quote from: polskifacet on May 25, 2017, 02:08:23 PM
What are you guys getting for WOT LPFP pressure? From the SCT logs mine starts out at about 108 PSI and goes down to about 96 PSI at the top of the rpm range.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on November 13, 2013, 11:17:57 PM
I've been thinking there are fueling differences between the 2 gens of turbo SHO. I routinely see 2500+PSI at the rail....I've seen almost 2700 PSI a couple of times. This conflicts with Ford's stated max rail pressure of 2150 PSI and the experiences of other Ecoboosters here.
I found out some fuel system info from my buddy who works at the Ford dealership.
2013's have a different LPFP than the 2010-12's.
1st gen LPFP run at a fixed 65PSI
2013+ is variable that runs between 51 and 75 psi.
Taurus 2.0 ecoboost uses 2013 setup also.
Non Turbo 3.5 uses 2010-12 SHO fuel setup.
He said he will continue to research as he has time.
If anyone has any specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.
Seems like my numbers are way off of the above.
Not if your tuner has messed with your LPFP settings.
Your numbers are appropriate for HPFP input.
I'm pretty sure I looked at this in your logs and your LPFP seemed perfectly healthy.
On the lms 87 3bar which is only trans mods and 3bar, at idle desired lpfp is 79.2 and the max desired is 89.2. I see actual hit 96 and after i let off wot it jumps to 108 for a second or two.
on the lms 93 v8 cold weather at idle desired is 71.7 and I see a max desired of 104 psi. Actual matches desired at idle and anytime some boost builds its pegged at 108psi actual.
I have done the volume test with my old pump and the results are:
2.6 Liters per 30 seconds so 82.44 GPH or 312 LPH
Note:this is at 0 PSI this is simply the transfer ability of the pump, for a horsepower calculator to be accurate, it would have to have this volume at 75-100 psi. I am assuming that it can support 75 PSI with this volume.
From various calculators this is more than enough for 420 crank horsepower, actually calculators say 700-750 hp possible.
Adding pictures for visual aid of how I tested. Also green is negative and red is positive. I fed it 12v 10 amps similar to what the car could provide.
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/Fuel/FuelPumpTest.jpg)
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/Fuel/FuelPumpWires.jpg)
Tested pressure 10 inches before the hpfp. Torque and SCT are wrong fuel pressure wise. The gauge showed 3 different pressures only. Idle was a solid 60 PSI. Spirited driving was solid at 90 psi. WOT was 80 psi.
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/FuelPressure/Fgauge1.jpg)
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/FuelPressure/Fgauge2.jpg)
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/FuelPressure/Fgauge3.jpg)
the pics are busted and not loading ? or is that me ?
I dont know if i would say sct is wrong...it would read exactly what the cars sensors would say...and im not even sure if there is a sensor for the low pressure...it could be an inferred reading so that would be how ford extrapolates the value
Are you reading psig or psia?..im sure it makes a difference....the readings you said your gauge says looks normal...but i dont remember your low pressure to be a problem, just the high side
ahh well would be psig. also did the volume test and got 2.5 L for 30 seconds, perfect. I'm trying to go through every possibility. I guess next step is swap hpfp from steelblue.
Quote from: polskifacet on June 01, 2017, 05:11:37 PM
ahh well would be psig. I guess next step is swap hpfp from steelblue.
Why didnt you do that early on?...considering it was your high pressure that was low?...i was thinking you already tried swapping the high pressure pump?
Quote from: polskifacet on June 01, 2017, 05:11:37 PM
ahh well would be psig. also did the volume test and got 2.5 L for 30 seconds, perfect. I'm trying to go through every possibility. I guess next step is swap hpfp from steelblue.
If you want to purchase the HPFP let me know.. I am going to be out of pocket all next week.
I didn't swap the hpfp yet as the date on the pump is 2014 so I know it came new with the motor. I'm fairly confident that it won't matter but it's too big of a factor not to try it. Stealblue I guess you can email me your PayPal akotniewicz@gmail.com. What do I do next lol, send out the injectors for testing? I'm also confident that they are fine based on lambda and the camera test.
Picture of the volume test setup. I simply hooked the pump up to 12 volts based on the initial test I did.
(http://polskifacet.dynu.com:55698/uploader/uploads/Pictures/SHO/FuelPressure/VolumeTest.jpg)
I really like that blue....
Great informative thread there Adam(polskifacet)that will surely help out the Ecoboost Community!!. Z :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: ZSHO on June 02, 2017, 11:09:50 AM
Great informative thread there Adam(polskifacet)that will surely help out the Ecoboost Community!!. Z :thumb: :thumb:
Unfortunately for me the numbers are all good lol.
HPFP on order from fellow EBPF member StealBlue. Again not expecting this to make a difference, we shall see.
Quote from: polskifacet on June 02, 2017, 11:50:34 AM
HPFP on order from fellow EBPF member StealBlue. Again not expecting this to make a difference, we shall see.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you!!
-Mike
FWIW there are several (FDM)available and not quite sure if SBS still has his but personally would try swapping it out and monitor for any changes. Z
AA8Z9D370B--AA8Z-9D370-D --GA8Z-9D370-A
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6600.150.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6600.150.html)
Mine was swapped out under recall. Same on 2 different modules. I can grab the part number later but it looks new and really beefy when i unplugged it yesterday to depressurize the system.
Yea I have mine... but if yours was swapped under recall then I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
HPFP shipped, best of luck!
HPFP received, thanks stealblue!
Very interested in the results!!! Oh and sorry for all the packing peanuts!
Just glad you are not sending ME anything. I am SWIMMING in those darned things.
I can bet that the pump swap will make no difference. What do I do after I change it? After this part being changed wouldn't the only factor left be the tune? I have been thinking about sending the injectors out for testing but I have already tested them for leaks. I could also force the lpfp to make 90 psi and have all the plugs out and check each one again if the initial test wasn't "good enough". At what point can I throw this back on LMS?
So you are comparing 12 volt output to see what the gpm is in a test set up to a running car which is 13.7 to 14.3 approx volts?
Shouldnt the running car get better pump output automatically?
Quote from: Macgyver on June 06, 2017, 04:49:41 PM
So you are comparing 12 volt output to see what the gpm is in a test set up to a running car which is 13.7 to 14.3 approx volts?
Shouldnt the running car get better pump output automatically?
From one of FoMoCo's the pump runs at 5 (or 5.5) and 12 volts which is controlled by the FDM.
Also there is more than enough fuel being supplied at 12 volts if it indeed gets ~14.1 volts.
Fuel rails maybe? There is a fuel rail pressure sensor too...
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 06, 2017, 05:01:09 PM
Fuel rails maybe? There is a fuel rail pressure sensor too...
How could fuel rails cause fuel pressure loss lol. Sensor is fine on the stock and 87/89 lms tune.
Only things left...
Quote from: polskifacet on June 06, 2017, 05:54:50 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 06, 2017, 05:45:45 PM
Only things left...
And the tune
I thought tune and strategy were ruled out long ago...you had 2 different calibrations from 2 different tuners that showed low fuel pressure when those same 2 calibrations are fine in other cars with the same strategy
If its not the pump which I should know in a couple hours, you think the ecu is janky? Doesn't make sense if it was only janky when tuned. After this, there is nothing else to test?!?
Increased power when tuned puts more demand on the fuel system....dont know if its janky but i like that word....im of no help youve tested way more than i would have at this pointy
Quote from: AJP turbo on June 06, 2017, 09:21:11 PM
Increased power when tuned puts more demand on the fuel system....dont know if its janky but i like that word....im of no help youve tested way more than i would have at this pointy
Random thought, how does the pump 'receive' the signal and vary the output/pressure? Does it use variable voltage? Has there been voltage measurements on the line to the pump(s)?
Also does the pump report 'back' its output? And is that return value wrong even though the physical pressure is good?
Crazy thoughts on allergy meds.. cheers
I hear you, hard to test all that with a doner SHO and oscilloscope. Also I get that hesitation when it drops real low so there must be something actually being funky.
Feel like its the same as my original pump. Curve is good but same as what I was getting at this temperature. I feel like LMS should make the tune fit my car at this point. What does it matter to them if I request adjustment.
I'll give LMS an ultimatum, adjust the tune or give me back what it will cost AJP to tune my car. Of course they will most likely do nothing. At least it will be noted that there is a fix and they choose not to.
I would like to offer my testing setup to anyone else that is having fuel issues. Pay for shipping and some kind of deposit and you can do what you have to.
Quote from: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 03:15:35 PM
I would like to offer my testing setup to anyone else that is having fuel issues. Pay for shipping and some kind of deposit and you can do what you have to.
watch that duct tape. the Adhesive itself wont 'hurt the paint' but it will leave a funky residue if it gets HOT and it will discolor the clear coat over time.
Quote from: TopherSho on June 09, 2017, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 03:15:35 PM
I would like to offer my testing setup to anyone else that is having fuel issues. Pay for shipping and some kind of deposit and you can do what you have to.
watch that duct tape. the Adhesive itself wont 'hurt the paint' but it will leave a funky residue if it gets HOT and it will discolor the clear coat over time.
Where do you see duct tape?
Quote from: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on June 09, 2017, 03:25:42 PM
Quote from: polskifacet on June 09, 2017, 03:15:35 PM
I would like to offer my testing setup to anyone else that is having fuel issues. Pay for shipping and some kind of deposit and you can do what you have to.
watch that duct tape. the Adhesive itself wont 'hurt the paint' but it will leave a funky residue if it gets HOT and it will discolor the clear coat over time.
Where do you see duct tape?
oh hell wrong thread