So I ran across this post the other day and since I am a junkie for data I was curious what the gathered minds think about this... Ford uses the throttle to help control torque in any given situation, which the by product of this keeps the car from having staggering overboost conditions under WOT...
We see a trend in the datalogs on the site where some tuners keeping the throttle open leads to really big boost spikes at around 4K rpms.... however I have read that some tuners use the throttle to control that situation...
This link drops your a post where if you scroll down another guy has an interesting take on why ford uses the throttle and why it would be a step back not to use the throttle to control torque..
http://www.focusrs.org/forum/9-focus-rs-discussions/4355-4th-gear-wot-log-4.html (http://www.focusrs.org/forum/9-focus-rs-discussions/4355-4th-gear-wot-log-4.html)
Just curious what the forums take on this is? I know where I stand on the subject of controlling boost spikes, which is why I added that external wastegate mod and saw massive improvements in overboost which helped stabilize my fuel pressure.. however according to the guy on the forum that is a step back and "neuters" what the throttle control system was designed for...
If you can read logs, here was a datalog of my car with an untuned strategy showing the throttle controlling the power output through the entire range...the throttle never opens past 50% throughout the entire run.
This is some very good reading, HPTuners is adding better support for my XSport so I'll start tuning it soon and this will defiantly be something I keep in mind.
This post in particular was very informative: http://www.focusrs.org/forum/9-focus-rs-discussions/4355-4th-gear-wot-log-4.html#post117962 (http://www.focusrs.org/forum/9-focus-rs-discussions/4355-4th-gear-wot-log-4.html#post117962).
Reading that is starting to sell me on an upgraded actuator again (I keep considering it). While the throttle is great for controlling boost and when it hits the heads the actuator does the job of building and holding the boost. If you want to be able to build and hold more boost than stock specs an upgraded actuator or wastegate seem to be required.
Good and interesting reading.
I don't think he would see adding a third device to control overboost as neutering. He is saying to not take away the ability for the throttle to control boost as well.
Quote from: sholxgt on September 08, 2016, 05:24:34 PM
Good and interesting reading.
I don't think he would see adding a third device to control overboost as neutering. He is saying to not take away the ability for the throttle to control boost as well.
I agree but if I have the throttle controlling my load then I don't need the WG... AJPTURBO and I experimented with both solutions on my car... He first did it with his car and then I bought the wastegate and he tuned the same setup for my car as well.. but it allows WOT without closures...
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Sooo on a Ford Focus ST a guy dynoed stock and with the WOT... Here are his results.. more midrange power was provided WOT but peaks were not that much different..
http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x
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I have not ran into a condition yet where you need upgraded actuators to hold,build,or make boost
Steal blue you fell in love with your car all over again didnt you lol....you like to eat your cake too, dont you....
Sometimes there are results that dont show on the dyno or at the track...its called health...some dont care about that even if they say they do
Quote from: AJP turbo on September 08, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
Steal blue you fell in love with your car all over again didnt you lol....you like to eat your cake too, dont you....
Absolutely I did and the kid in the new 5.0 last night had a very confused look on his face when he got rolled by a 4 door sedan with baby seats in the back... And I eat cake like a pro! BTW I did end up using Rev 17... And using the mbc to allow my car to spike a small bit like 218kpa but since my car is very aggressive in holding boost I maintain around 210kpa-213kpa through MOST the of the RPMs and fuel pressure holds just fine with dips in the high 1900psi range... With WOT none the less...
I am more or less curious about the purposed statement saying that controlling load with air volume (throttle angles) is a better way to tune cars... Interesting to me..and was curious about opinions by people way smarter than myself..
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And I am trying to find the article but there was some guy saying he talked to a Ford engineer about it...and the resulting information was that the TB on the Ecoboost cars are oversized to allow throttle closures without major impacts to performance so they have more control over the torque output...
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 08, 2016, 05:46:44 PM
I am more or less curious about the purposed statement saying that controlling load with air volume (throttle angles) is a better way to tune cars... Interesting to me..and was curious about opinions by people way smarter than myself..
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Seems completely valid to me it gives you some nice abilities like pre-spooling and allows for another form of safety.
Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 08, 2016, 05:32:05 PM
Sooo on a Ford Focus ST a guy dynoed stock and with the WOT... Here are his results.. more midrange power was provided WOT but peaks were not that much different..
http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x (http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x)
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That guy is Randy Robles who was a calibrator at FSWERKS and he's at Mountune USA now.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 08, 2016, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 08, 2016, 05:32:05 PM
Sooo on a Ford Focus ST a guy dynoed stock and with the WOT... Here are his results.. more midrange power was provided WOT but peaks were not that much different..
http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x (http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x)
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That guy is Randy Robles who was a calibrator at FSWERKS and he's at Mountune USA now.
Soooo... Good to know... He have a pretty good reputation? Just curious how much weight should be given to his posts..
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 08, 2016, 07:05:05 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 08, 2016, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on September 08, 2016, 05:32:05 PM
Sooo on a Ford Focus ST a guy dynoed stock and with the WOT... Here are his results.. more midrange power was provided WOT but peaks were not that much different..
http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x (http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=r3rl5x)
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That guy is Randy Robles who was a calibrator at FSWERKS and he's at Mountune USA now.
Soooo... Good to know... He have a pretty good reputation? Just curious how much weight should be given to his posts..
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He did the tuning for the last gen focus bolt on turbo kit FSwerks developed. By all accounts he made some very quick yet safe foci.
I always liked him on the forums as he wasn't afraid to share info with the membership.
Mountune UK has Ford warranty backing and I suspect the US may follow suit at some point so I'm guessing he's pretty talented.
Sounds like a pretty positive guy, good to know!
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I believe Fordmanmorgan worked with Randy at one point. You could PM him, haven't seen him on here in a while.
Good deal, I think we know where he stands based on the conversation he had with the focus group... I know Unleashed does not use throttle to control anything, not sure about LME, and I think Cobb who doesn't tune SHO's can tune either way based on the forums, our local community tuner AJP can tune either way... To me it's pretty interesting that outside of our forums it appears to be a very common topic.. and since us SHO owners are way cooler I was just getting our take on the subject...
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Some interesting info about this.. good read...
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/ecoboost-tech-are-throttle-closures-bad/
Ford Focus ST WOT vs Throttle closure dyno numbers...
http://fordstnation.com/focus-st-performance/5423-focus-st-throttle-being-kept-open-wot-vs-allowed-close-its-own.html#/topics/5423?_k=eifwt1
Great info!
Funny... If you read the two combined articles then for road courses... You can utilize throttle closings to help prespool the turbo for part throttle acceleration... But for balls to the wall 1/4 mile times then WOT makes sense?
Yeah the dichotomy is interesting. Could be a bug, could be deliberate IDK. Maybe they dont want you making sudden changes at speed, maybe torque steer issues, maybe protecting the AWD?