2010 SHO, Tuned, 170 thermo, .030 plugs, 3bar, catback, and Airaid exhaust...
When I am data logging I am showing bank 1 leaning out and the ecu having to throw an additional 20-22% fuel into it to attempt keeping the demanded lambda... this is under WOT only...then it runs pretty rich for a half second or so until it corrects.. I have seen it drop to .68 lambda before the ecu brings it back in line after adding a bunch of fuel..
Bank 2 is only having to throw an additional 5% - 7% and occasionally taking away fuel as it will run rich under WOT for a half a second.. so bank 2 seems within normal range to me...
Bank 1 seems to creep up .02 lambda higher than Bank 2 under WOT.. consistently.
This is a with and without letting the LTFT get adjusted yet... when LTFT are set then I am still seeing lean STFT variances on bank 1..
I have checked for exhaust leaks around the WB sensor on bank 1 and didn't see anything, also swapped out the WB on that bank just to verify that I didn't have a lazy sensor which didn't seems to make any difference...
Brand new lpfp...
I am holding a hair over 16lbs of boost with boost spikes of 20-22 when shifting... timing is pretty advanced as well..
Not sure what else to check? Could be chasing my tail here and just dealing with the fact my fuel system is maxed out?
From what I am reading most people are holding around 14-15psi? Not sure what they are running for timing...
Yes, I could ask my tuner... but I am more curious about the STFT on bank 1 and if that is normal when the fuel system starts to tap out..
If so then that's fine, just time to order meth...
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Paging resident logging guru ajpturbo......
Paging resident logging guru ajpturbo......
Sound like you covered all the things I would've recommend checking.
I'm sure someone will be here shortly to help.
Very brief spikes in STFT are not abnormal if suddenly going from cruise to WOT. But the reaction should be similar between banks 1 & 2, that's important. No reduction in apparent performance though?
Have you ever run fuel injector cleaner in your SHO? Even with the best fuels, fuel rails can get gunked up, one side sometimes more than the other. Might take 2 or 3 tankfuls to see an effect. Techron concentrate (the 3,000 mile one) or BG 44K.
Probably not the spark plugs or coils, you would see/feel the misfire, even without codes being set. There is a possibility of timing errors (VCT solenoid or phaser) on bank 1 (usually logged as VCTADVERR in ForScan Lite). What oil & filter are you running, and how many miles on the current combo so far?
I would expect to see at least a few Codes set!!...How many mile's on your SHO? Z
Only has 48K on the car... I was having fuel system issues several months ago, but a new lpfp helped significantly. I originally couldn't even run the base 3Bar tune without hitting fuel cutoff, that issue has been resolved however.
I have never run fuel cleaners through the system... I have read a lot of mixed reviews running fuel cleaners through a DI system... but at this point... probably worth a couple bottles.
No codes set... nothing.. ecu is as quite as a mouse... not sure how long I would need to drive it through for the LTFT to read lean enough to throw a code though... I don't drive it much...
heh, the last run I did, the datalog has bank 2 needing to be leaned out from to much fuel and bank 1 is getting fuel added because its running lean... no knocking either.. I have seen this on a N/A car before, but it was because the timing was all bunged up, however, it was like that that moment it turned on, not just under load.
Just curious if anyone has run into a similar issue with these motors..
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 11:35:23 AM
Very brief spikes in STFT are not abnormal if suddenly going from cruise to WOT. But the reaction should be similar between banks 1 & 2, that's important. No reduction in apparent performance though?
Have you ever run fuel injector cleaner in your SHO? Even with the best fuels, fuel rails can get gunked up, one side sometimes more than the other. Might take 2 or 3 tankfuls to see an effect. Techron concentrate (the 3,000 mile one) or BG 44K.
Probably not the spark plugs or coils, you would see/feel the misfire, even without codes being set. There is a possibility of timing errors (VCT solenoid or phaser) on bank 1 (usually logged as VCTADVERR in ForScan Lite). What oil & filter are you running, and how many miles on the current combo so far?
If I was not datalogging and looking at the data I would never suspect anything is wrong with car, pulls hard through the entire RPM range, even made a newer Camaro SS feel bad from 20 roll up to around 110, stayed at least a car length ahead the whole time, even pulled away a bit more after 80..
Physically looking at the components, the plugs, O2 Sensors, and Tail pipes would make you think I was running rich.. nothing white showing a leaner burn.. but then again, I haven't run it hard then stopped to pull everything out either... so who knows...
2-3 tank fulls would take me 4 months or so to go through with how much I drive it...
Mobile 1 Full Synthetic with the mobile 1 filter... has around 1,500 miles on current oil.
Wouldn't a faulty VCT solenoid cause a CEL? I would imagine so.. never had one go out though an any other car I have driven that has variable cam timing... so not sure if it would throw a code.
Ever run higher concentrations of Ethanol?
I know that many love the stuff, but it's rough on fuel system components. Wonder if the black goo of death is what took out your LPFP and some of it has migrated to your injector rail?
Ethanol is especially rough on vehicles that aren't used often. Boat owners have seen a huge rate of fuel system failures do to sitting even short periods of time with just the 10% ethanol pump gas.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160714/88a1e69503bcfa61e7e8139b63ee4dae.jpg)
This is what the old strainer looked like on the last fuel pump...
I have never run anything more than 10% Ethanol in the system... but I am not the original owner so I can't speak for the life of the vehicle..
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Did you happen to look at your rail pressure when you where having trouble. When my first LPFP started going out, the DI pressure barely reached 1800 at WOT. With the new LPFP its well into the 2000's at WOT.
Maybe just my paranoia, but that looks a little black. Or am I seeing things?
FWIW, I looked up the fuel rail and I think bank 1 isn't too expensive. If I'm reading the diagram right, the bank 2 rail is over twice the price. Not sure why.
Overall, I like SHOdded's idea the best. Seems worth trying some good fuel system cleaner.
Your fuel system isn't maxed out.
I run mid 16 boost with 18ish spark and I have plenty of fuel on an E20 tune.
FRP never drops below about 2100 and peaks 26-2700 PSI
Those boost spikes aren't helping your fuel situation though, I'm assuming your TQ management is shut off?
Letting boost and spark spike on shifts just drains your rail and beats the crap out of your drivetrain.
ST's going to 20% at WOT definitely isn't normal, maybe one of your injectors is having issues.
You still have soot because the car is using trims to compensate for whatever the issue is.
Running some chemical in tank see if it alleviates the problem shouldn't be an issue, it is the cleaning services that knock chunks of carbon into your cylinders and turbos that can be problematic.
Quote from: sholxgt on July 14, 2016, 12:44:59 PM
Ever run higher concentrations of Ethanol?
I know that many love the stuff, but it's rough on fuel system components. Wonder if the black goo of death is what took out your LPFP and some of it has migrated to your injector rail?
Ethanol is especially rough on vehicles that aren't used often. Boat owners have seen a huge rate of fuel system failures do to sitting even short periods of time with just the 10% ethanol pump gas.
The entire ecoboost fuel system was designed to run on E-85, the fuel components are fine.
The last year has seen my car sit for very long periods of time and there is no issue.
Quote from: bamsho on July 14, 2016, 01:21:10 PM
Did you happen to look at your rail pressure when you where having trouble. When my first LPFP started going out, the DI pressure barely reached 1800 at WOT. With the new LPFP its well into the 2000's at WOT.
So to answer the question, yes, I monitor the rail pressure very carefully. Currently it will drop to 1250PSI during the major boost spikes at gear shift but it will recover to 2100 PSI... but thats when the fuel system is taxed the hardest...
When the fuel pump was going out or clogged, when under load, I could never really recover to 2100psi at any point during the pulls except in third gear when my load had evened out to 1.65. - 1.70 or so..
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 01:29:09 PM
Your fuel system isn't maxed out.
I run mid 16 boost with 18ish spark and I have plenty of fuel on an E20 tune.
FRP never drops below about 2100 and peaks 26-2700 PSI
Those boost spikes aren't helping your fuel situation though, I'm assuming your TQ management is shut off?
Letting boost and spark spike on shifts just drains your rail and beats the crap out of your drivetrain.
ST's going to 20% at WOT definitely isn't normal, maybe one of your injectors is having issues.
You still have soot because the car is using trims to compensate for whatever the issue is.
Running some chemical in tank see if it alleviates the problem shouldn't be an issue, it is the cleaning services that knock chunks of carbon into your cylinders and turbos that can be problematic.
When I data log the FRP the highest I ever see it go is 15 Mpa which works out to around 2175psi? No where near that 2600-2700...
And I agree whole heartily on the massive boost spikes pounding the fuel rail and not being able to recover. But even then, shouldn't the STFT's and LTFT be within a nominal difference? Not 10-15% different? Let alone bank 1 seeing a lean condition and bank 2 seeing a rich condition at the same time?
TQ Management is turned off, nannies are as off as they can be on the non-pp...
Spark looks to be around 16...
I talked to my tuner about the massive boost spikes... he said it was normal to see them. During my 2nd - 3rd shift I see a measurement of 255 Kpa worth of pressure at the intake which works out to almost 22.5 psi... which if I am not mistaken is as high a reading as the 3Bar map can see? I read somewhere that it can only really measure 2.5Bar's....
I initially thought that the massive boost spikes are what is causing my problem, but I am not sure as to why I would be over boosting so much at the shifts.. most datalogs I see don't have AS BIG of spikes as I do... the wastegate dc doesnt get pegged at 100... although I am not sure what I would be looking for if I had a sticky waste gate..
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on July 14, 2016, 12:44:59 PM
Ever run higher concentrations of Ethanol?
I know that many love the stuff, but it's rough on fuel system components. Wonder if the black goo of death is what took out your LPFP and some of it has migrated to your injector rail?
Ethanol is especially rough on vehicles that aren't used often. Boat owners have seen a huge rate of fuel system failures do to sitting even short periods of time with just the 10% ethanol pump gas.
The entire ecoboost fuel system was designed to run on E-85, the fuel components are fine.
The last year has seen my car sit for very long periods of time and there is no issue.
Even if the fuel system components are OK with Ethanol, they don't like black goo. It has happened across all platforms regardless of make/model. Even happens in factory E85 vehicles.
There are theories that it's in relation to how the ethanol is interacting with the gasoline additives. Also theories that it's related to certain fuel brands and/or locations.
No fuel system is happy trying to pass the black goo. It would not surprise me, based on the looks of that strainer, if the rest of the fuel system is partially coated. Seems like a quality, in tank, fuel system treatment might be a good idea to try in this case.
Definitely great advice from above...would add me a couple bottles of Heet,preferably the( yellow bottle) to the mix especially if you don't drive it much,are you using a TOP tier 93 octane gas station ? There are some places that have pure gas and here's the link. Z http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=VA (http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=VA)
Quote from: ZSHO on July 14, 2016, 01:52:59 PM
Definitely great advice from above...would add me a couple bottles of Heet,preferably the( yellow bottle) to the mix especially if you don't drive it much,are you using a TOP tier 93 octane gas station ? There are some places that have pure gas and here's the link. Z http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=VA (http://pure-gas.org/?stateprov=VA)
I will give the fuel treatment a try... and unfortunately the other side of that strainer is worse... when I pulled it out initially I thought that ford had changed the strainers to some kind of charcoal based strainer...
I have a pure gas station about 10 miles from house.. Exon Mobile... only one in the area I am aware of... and charges like it too!
Quote from: sholxgt on July 14, 2016, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on July 14, 2016, 12:44:59 PM
Ever run higher concentrations of Ethanol?
I know that many love the stuff, but it's rough on fuel system components. Wonder if the black goo of death is what took out your LPFP and some of it has migrated to your injector rail?
Ethanol is especially rough on vehicles that aren't used often. Boat owners have seen a huge rate of fuel system failures do to sitting even short periods of time with just the 10% ethanol pump gas.
The entire ecoboost fuel system was designed to run on E-85, the fuel components are fine.
The last year has seen my car sit for very long periods of time and there is no issue.
Even if the fuel system components are OK with Ethanol, they don't like black goo. It has happened across all platforms regardless of make/model. Even happens in factory E85 vehicles.
There are theories that it's in relation to how the ethanol is interacting with the gasoline additives. Also theories that it's related to certain fuel brands and/or locations.
No fuel system is happy trying to pass the black goo. It would not surprise me, based on the looks of that strainer, if the rest of the fuel system is partially coated. Seems like a quality, in tank, fuel system treatment might be a good idea to try in this case.
There are also theories about vapors eating the fuel lines, vapor seeping through lines eating the stainless braid, fuel boiling, etc. Then again there are plenty of flex fuel vehicles on the road without any issues. I'm not saying there can't be an issue, but its not one I've had any issue with over 2 cars with blends from E-20 to E-80.
I've not seen folks having issues with lower blends...for example the mazdaspeed guys start having issues at 40-50%. Their hardware is also different than ours.
Based on my recent experiences tuning with non top tier vs top tier I would recommend that everyone, especially us corn junkies use top tier with your corn. I think there really is something to the expensive additive packs.
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
The only difference I can find is the LPFP.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
The only difference I can find is the LPFP.
How are you achieving 2700 psi at the fuel rail?
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 14, 2016, 04:25:05 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
The only difference I can find is the LPFP.
How are you achieving 2700 psi at the fuel rail?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I have an excellent tuner.
I've been saying for a while that the fuel system is plenty capable but was being limited by Ford and it seems he figured it out
I know the conventional wisdom says FRP drops are normal.
But if you are commanding 2150 and only getting 1200, I would disagree. The last thing I want when boost and spark is spiking is rail pressure
dropping.
There are all kinds of issues when your rail pressure drops, atomization suffers which causes wall wetting, which can cause knock.
Turning on torque management will help but not completely fix the issue.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 14, 2016, 04:25:05 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
The only difference I can find is the LPFP.
How are you achieving 2700 psi at the fuel rail?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I have an excellent tuner.
I've been saying for a while that the fuel system is plenty capable but was being limited by Ford and it seems he figured it out
I know the conventional wisdom says FRP drops are normal.
But if you are commanding 2150 and only getting 1200, I would disagree. The last thing I want when boost and spark is spiking is rail pressure dropping.
There are all kinds of issues when your rail pressure drops, atomization suffers which causes wall wetting, which can cause knock.
Turning on torque management will help but not completely fix the issue.
I have combed the forums and have pulled quite a bit of datalogs from other SHO owners. Every single one of them shows fuel rail pressure dropping around 4700 rpms after a shift change, some worse than others. There is one that is an exception and it appears to be a whole different beasty.. I am not sure which tunes or who tuned the various datalogs I have but they all have similar characteristics in the FRP...
I would imagin if someone has figured out how to "unlock" the software limitations on the HPFP to command 2700PSI or better then thats a significant modification. They could probably corner the market on ecoboost tuning.
Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 14, 2016, 05:50:59 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:56:18 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on July 14, 2016, 04:25:05 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 14, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 14, 2016, 03:27:56 PM
I wonder if there are enough differences between the '10-'12 and '13+ fuel systems to cause an issue with ethanol in earlier MYs. That would be a dig to find that info!
The only difference I can find is the LPFP.
How are you achieving 2700 psi at the fuel rail?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
I have an excellent tuner.
I've been saying for a while that the fuel system is plenty capable but was being limited by Ford and it seems he figured it out
I know the conventional wisdom says FRP drops are normal.
But if you are commanding 2150 and only getting 1200, I would disagree. The last thing I want when boost and spark is spiking is rail pressure dropping.
There are all kinds of issues when your rail pressure drops, atomization suffers which causes wall wetting, which can cause knock.
Turning on torque management will help but not completely fix the issue.
I have combed the forums and have pulled quite a bit of datalogs from other SHO owners. Every single one of them shows fuel rail pressure dropping around 4700 rpms after a shift change, some worse than others. There is one that is an exception and it appears to be a whole different beasty.. I am not sure which tunes or who tuned the various datalogs I have but they all have similar characteristics in the FRP...
I would imagin if someone has figured out how to "unlock" the software limitations on the HPFP to command 2700PSI or better then thats a significant modification. They could probably corner the market on ecoboost tuning.
There were a few mechanical limitersput on the hpfp that can limit the output that are easily changed with scalars in the tune...it seems even the 10-12 cars benefit from this also.
In addition to that, most if not all of the logs you have seen exibit the rail pressure drop at upshifts because of the inherent problem of load/boost spikes at the shifts....the load spikes deplete the rail quickly....control the load spikes, then u can control fuel pressure dips
Commanding 2700 at most times can be easy but i wouldnt want that much sustained pressure...2000-2200 is fine...the 2500+ is usually happening at run out times like when you have 2200 and then close the throttle
I have quite a few logs thati can post showing stable fuel pressure..maybe tonight i can post some screen shots
But obviously if boost is spiking to 240 kpa that will tax the fuel system
I just went back and read the thread...beeen a little busy and missed it but if you hit 22 psi and it was a spike that is extremely tough on rail pressure...1250 is getting low...i call 1000 danger zone but now with some of the changes ive made and seeing what is possible, i really see no reason at maderately aggressive boost of 16psi to tolerate less than 1800 ish
Also at low rpm its hard for the hpfp to make pressure because its basically a mechanical pump that needs rpm but if tuned well 15 psi boost at 2500 rpm is fine
Pm me ur email and ill look at a log if you'd like and i can tell you what i see....you most likely wont like it though....especially if you are spiking to 255 kpa....your spark tables most likely arent even set up for that so you are relying on the knock sensors to pull the spark
That all makes sense and I am curious as to how to control the load spikes at the up shift.. in short, my trims and AFR go to crap when the ecu tries to compensate for those spikes. I have talked to my tuner about them... maybe I will address it again.. and run some fuel cleaner in the meantime...
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Something else, usually when rail drops and boost spikes that doesnt mean stft's go up....the ecu knows that pressure is down and knows that load has spiked...it cranks up injectors duty cycle.....when the ecu is adding fuel with the 02 sensors and trims it means something unexpected is going on....when pressure falls and boost spikes it knows that and makes the adjustments.
If you exceed what the map can see that can cause trims to rise because it DOESNT know that boost
I also wonder if your 02 sensor is bad
If you are hitting 255 kpa then fuel cleaner wont help...you are running the piss out of it....control spikes with throttle like ford does
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 14, 2016, 08:42:26 PM
Something else, usually when rail drops and boost spikes that doesnt mean stft's go up....the ecu knows that pressure is down and knows that load has spiked...it cranks up injectors duty cycle.....when the ecu is adding fuel with the 02 sensors and trims it means something unexpected is going on....when pressure falls and boost spikes it knows that and makes the adjustments.
If you exceed what the map can see that can cause trims to rise because it DOESNT know that boost
I also wonder if your 02 sensor is bad
Swapped WB O2 sensors out with new ones, didn't change a thing.
Have you checked out the Ford service OBD summary. Z http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1001.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1001.pdf)
Quote from: ZSHO on July 14, 2016, 09:53:17 PM
Have you checked out the Ford service OBD summary. Z http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1001.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1001.pdf)
That is a fantastic document, thank you!
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