Hello everyone. So i have a 2011 ford flex ecoboost with 110k miles with 50k engine. Recently i have had an issue where when i step on the throttle normal the car will start to shudder and shake like its misfiring yet i dont get a flashing MIL light like it would if it were misfiring. I read alot about some problem with acummulation of moisture and oil in the intercooler and a temp fix was to make a small drain hole to release the fluid built up in there. Such a small hole that it is undetectable and boost is not affected. It seemed like shutter went away at first but then came back. Its more noticeable going uphill but mostly always shudders at 40mph. Ive changed all spark plugs, cleaned all sensors, and tested all coils which were fine. I checked all fuel injectors and replaced one bad one and cleaned the rest. I have a check engine light on for catalyst bank 2 below threshold along with code for o2 sensor 1 bank 2. I was thinking a clogged cat. I know my o2 sensors are fibe because i monitered them on live data and they were working as they should. My o2 sensor 2 at bank 2 does fluctuate more than it should when watching on live data indicating gases may be passing straight through the cat, but a bad or clogged cat would generally make your car lose power quite noticeably. My flex, when the shutter is not happening is still a little rocket. It will zoom off, shudder, get through the shudders, and zoom of again and be fine until i stop and go again. Not really indicative of a bad cat. Im at a dead end. Anyone had this problem or know what it could be?? Im a very good mechanic but right now im stumped!!
Been reading more issues with the torque converter but there is a TSB 10-22-04 for the PTU being the cause of the shudder also. So I'd look into the PTU first, as it's easiest. Drain the fluid, if it's muck and/or contains debris, that may be the answer right there.
If you are amenable to using Forscan on a smartphone/tablet, there are various transmission related PIDs you can monitor to see if the torque converter is involved. Since you are looking at O2 values, I assume you are monitoring already in some manner.
The Bank2 Sensor 1 is a popular one to go bad. Which bank was the bad injector on? Do you have any logs showing how your fuel system/o2 sensors are behaving? If you would need to grab some, would add the trans PIDs to the list. AJP will likely have suggestions exactly which PIDs, I grab any that indicate Torque Converter.
You could also clean the sensors to see if that stops the fluctuation you see.
I have seen the drilling of a hole in the IC discussed. IMHO it is still a boost leak and if your boost seems unaffected then you have to be adding work for the turbos. I'd recommend installing a petcock in the hole and draining intermittently.
How did you check and clean your injectors?
My friend recently had the same issue on his Dodge - replaced plugs, coils, and even had the tranny rebuilt. Exact problem persisted. Then someone suggested he use better quality gas and that cured the problem 100%. No issues for 3+ months now. Just a thought...
One more thing - codes showed he had a chronic misfire on cylinder 5, causing the violent stumbling under acceleration. Misfire did not change cylinders when coils were swapped. This injector was also replaced, and that didn't fix the issue for long. It was only the change to better fuel that resolved it.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 28, 2016, 11:44:10 AM
How did you check and clean your injectors?
Checked them visually by removing them and cleaned by the plunger and battery method
Quote from: SHOdded on May 28, 2016, 06:15:55 AM
Been reading more issues with the torque converter but there is a TSB 10-22-04 for the PTU being the cause of the shudder also. So I'd look into the PTU first, as it's easiest. Drain the fluid, if it's muck and/or contains debris, that may be the answer right there.
If you are amenable to using Forscan on a smartphone/tablet, there are various transmission related PIDs you can monitor to see if the torque converter is involved. Since you are looking at O2 values, I assume you are monitoring already in some manner.
The Bank2 Sensor 1 is a popular one to go bad. Which bank was the bad injector on? Do you have any logs showing how your fuel system/o2 sensors are behaving? If you would need to grab some, would add the trans PIDs to the list. AJP will likely have suggestions exactly which PIDs, I grab any that indicate Torque Converter.
Honestly it feels more like a problem thats trans. related. So i will most def look into this. As far as my pids, the ltft were fine, but the o2s downstream are questionable. Sensors 1 in both banks are fluctiation appropriately but i can only see them read on my scanner in mA so i dont know how to convert to volts as i know they are supposed to read between .1-.9v but they generall fluctuate between -.030-.030mA. The rear sensors are measured in volts though and bank 2 sensor 2 is flucuating alot which usually points at bad cat but all other tests (looking for signs of overheating metal, vacuum test check back pressure) checked out plus i know a plugged cat will cause serious power reduction which mine does but only for breif moments. I want to check more into this convertor feal, so ill need to know which pids to moniter.
Quote from: gearheadred on May 28, 2016, 01:01:49 PM
One more thing - codes showed he had a chronic misfire on cylinder 5, causing the violent stumbling under acceleration. Misfire did not change cylinders when coils were swapped. This injector was also replaced, and that didn't fix the issue for long. It was only the change to better fuel that resolved it.
I will also try a dose of 91 octane to see if that helps.
Quote from: BiGMaC on May 28, 2016, 11:08:21 AM
You could also clean the sensors to see if that stops the fluctuation you see.
I have seen the drilling of a hole in the IC discussed. IMHO it is still a boost leak and if your boost seems unaffected then you have to be adding work for the turbos. I'd recommend installing a petcock in the hole and draining intermittently.
I have cleaned all sensors required and thank you on the petcock idea. I will be crafting that up tomorrow :-)
Have you had a dealer update the ECU? And also the primary 02's are 0-5V not whatever you or that other
flub posted
Not sure how you could check or even clean an ecoboost injector.
And I would replace both primary 02 sensors being that you have 110k and the car is getting old.
And I really think you need an ECU update...The main fix for the misfiring on the 3.5 eco is the "allowable wheel torque error" in the tune.
The fuel is not the problem unless you had absurdly bad gas....The car is perfectly fine on 87 octane.
Correct, the front or primary O2s are wideband, so they should show between 0 and 5 volts. The rears are narrowband, so should show between 0 & 1 volts.
87 fuel doesn't really leave much room for error on these engines, hopefully your Flex is stock tune. Definitely put a plug in that hole you put into the intercooler, then drain periodically. Check the turbos themselves for pooling oil (probably seal leak) and carbon buildup.
Hopefully running 91 a few tankfuls is all you need to fix this issue, make sure you use top tier stations only, Chevron if you have them available. Adding BG 44K would also help if the cats are still kicking around.
http://youtu.be/uSn_eIPdhOY?t=1m30s (http://youtu.be/uSn_eIPdhOY?t=1m30s)
Sounds exactly like the symptoms my car had when my torque converter started to fail recently.
Quote from: SHOdded on May 29, 2016, 06:47:52 AM
Correct, the front or primary O2s are wideband, so they should show between 0 and 5 volts. The rears are narrowband, so should show between 0 & 1 volts.
87 fuel doesn't really leave much room for error on these engines, hopefully your Flex is stock tune. Definitely put a plug in that hole you put into the intercooler, then drain periodically. Check the turbos themselves for pooling oil (probably seal leak) and carbon buildup.
Hopefully running 91 a few tankfuls is all you need to fix this issue, make sure you use top tier stations only, Chevron if you have them available. Adding BG 44K would also help if the cats are still kicking around.
http://youtu.be/uSn_eIPdhOY?t=1m30s (http://youtu.be/uSn_eIPdhOY?t=1m30s)
I will look into the pooling inside the turbo. And most def be putting in a drain plug
.
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 29, 2016, 10:23:09 AM
Sounds exactly like the symptoms my car had when my torque converter started to fail recently.
How much did u spend on a new t convert?
Quote from: Flexthis2011EB on May 29, 2016, 03:07:43 PM
How much did u spend on a new t convert?
I ended up doing a full rebuild along with the new torque converter. When a torque converter goes, it can send metal shavings through all the transmission lines and through the transmission, so doing the rebuild seems to be the safest route to make sure nothing else goes wrong down the road due to contamination. Ended up getting a pretty decent deal at $1800 for the full job with a year warranty. I got estimates up to $4k for the job depending on where i went though. Didn't even bother with the dealer.
Have you seen my thread? You might want to take a look at it. I ended up figuring out that it was the torque converter by trying a transmission additive and it immediately worked. This was obviously after trying quite a few other things first and was kind of a last resort since nothing was helping. It worked great, but it didn't last more than a few thousand miles, so i ended up getting the new torque converter and the rebuild done. Car runs like it's brand new again - shuddering is gone.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6022.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6022.0.html)
Heres a video i took of the shaking/shuddering/jerking i experience. https://youtu.be/-y2VIYXRSag
It happens at the beginning of video and at around 43 sec mark of video. Usually around 35-45mph and as u see theres no rpm flucuation.
Hmm, behaves like your Flex has 1 or more plugged cats. Might be 1 is plugged, other not, causing uneven power delivery ...
Quote from: SHOdded on May 30, 2016, 06:00:26 PM
Hmm, behaves like your Flex has 1 or more plugged cats. Might be 1 is plugged, other not, causing uneven power delivery ...
That was my first thought after the condesation in CAC thing. So i hooked up my scanner and watched pids. Now im no pro at this and am very new but have gotten so far that the down stream o2s should not be flucuating but yet when i watch them they move constantly. Heres a video of my pids. https://youtu.be/GHwUDY6OZ3E
I would recommend doing logs with a data logger such as livelink instead of that handheld......Not being a dick but I don't know how reliable that cen tech device is....It's probably the cheapest OBD can bus code reader on the market.
When you are looking at stft's and anything 02 related you need to be really steady on the the gas and also give it time to stabilize....If you've ever tuned a car for part throttle and cruise you do step tests where you vary the throttle position and leave it for at least 5 seconds at each step. Otherwise the trims never have time to settle....The readings you are looking at will ALWAYS occilate....That's what 02 sensors do...That's why modern cars run really well and fuel economy is so much better.
I don't know why that one reading was blank but it wouldn't make sense anyway....I don't know what a STFT for a rear 02 sensor would even be.....That's not something it adjusts. It will read lambda for the cat monitor but not make any adjustments.
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 30, 2016, 10:35:13 PM
I would recommend doing logs with a data logger such as livelink instead of that handheld......Not being a dick but I don't know how reliable that cen tech device is....It's probably the cheapest OBD can bus code reader on the market.
When you are looking at stft's and anything 02 related you need to be really steady on the the gas and also give it time to stabilize....If you've ever tuned a car for part throttle and cruise you do step tests where you vary the throttle position and leave it for at least 5 seconds at each step. Otherwise the trims never have time to settle....The readings you are looking at will ALWAYS occilate....That's what 02 sensors do...That's why modern cars run really well and fuel economy is so much better.
I don't know why that one reading was blank but it wouldn't make sense anyway....I don't know what a STFT for a rear 02 sensor would even be.....That's not something it adjusts. It will read lambda for the cat monitor but not make any adjustments.
Hmmm. Well car goes to shop tomorrow, hopefully i can get sone light at the end of this dark tunnel. Ill be sure to post what they found. Thank u everyone for all ur input!
Based on your video while driving I don't see any rpm fluctuations which in my experience go along with a bad torque converter.
I wonder if you have a fuel issue like a failing fuel pump or dirt in the tank that occasionally blocks fuel flow for the lpfp in the tank. Maybe a bad connection on one of your injectors or?
There have also been some strange failing coil packs that have not triggered any codes or engine light.
I hope the shop finds it quickly and it is an easy fix.
Quote from: 66 Galaxie on May 31, 2016, 08:40:55 AM
Based on your video while driving I don't see any rpm fluctuations which in my experience go along with a bad torque converter.
I wonder if you have a fuel issue like a failing fuel pump or dirt in the tank that occasionally blocks fuel flow for the lpfp in the tank. Maybe a bad connection on one of your injectors or?
There have also been some strange failing coil packs that have not triggered any codes or engine light.
I hope the shop finds it quickly and it is an easy fix.
I hope they figure it out too. Your thoughts are very good though. All possibilities. I will be sure to post the findings. Fingers crossed.
So the final verdict is (according to Ford) is the left cat is bad (im assuming "left" as in bank 2 which would make sense since i have a p0430 cat eff below thresh bank 2) along with a p0299 low boost code. Which i guess could also coillide with the shuddering as some explained a faulty wastegate could cause that. So i guess i will try to find a cheap cat and replace it myself byt as far as the p0299, what would be the first things to look into? How can i check if the wastegate on these are functioning properly?
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430) - Bank 2
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299)
Quote from: SHOdded on May 31, 2016, 10:46:48 PM
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430) - Bank 2
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299)
So for the under boost it says possible condition could be due to divertor valves which i did vent both. I wonder if thats the problem.
Quote from: Flexthis2011EB on May 31, 2016, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on May 31, 2016, 10:46:48 PM
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430) - Bank 2
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299)
So for the under boost it says possible condition could be due to divertor valves which i did vent both. I wonder if thats the problem.
Someone here had some seriously chewed up bov seals that were causing boost leaks. Probably worthwhile to check them out.
Only a couple bolts on each one
Edit: found it.
Here's the link. "2 blown turbos " is the thread title.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=5936
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Quote from: glock-coma on May 31, 2016, 11:18:22 PM
Quote from: Flexthis2011EB on May 31, 2016, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on May 31, 2016, 10:46:48 PM
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0430) - Bank 2
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0299)
So for the under boost it says possible condition could be due to divertor valves which i did vent both. I wonder if thats the problem.
Someone here had some seriously chewed up bov seals that were causing boost leaks. Probably worthwhile to check them out.
Only a couple bolts on each one
Edit: found it.
Here's the link. "2 blown turbos " is the thread title.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=5936 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=5936)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160601/a1e7de7ec4ae209534d34ed74e6d165a.jpg)
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You know, i have removed them before. Maybe wouldn't be a bad idea just to change the seals quick.
Latest updates in this thread:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6305.0 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6305.0)