Ecoboost Performance Forum

I've been chasing an annoying problem on my 2011 F150.

It generally makes plenty of power. Good stock, very good with SCT canned tunes, and great with custom tunes, but there is a persistent problem.

Scenario that will allow me to most reliably reproduce it:




• Cruising at 50-70 mph
• Slight incline
• 1,800-2,000 rpm
• Top gear (or similar rpm at reduced speed in lower gear)
• Light but increasing pressure on throttle

Response...



• Transmission holds in gear, does not downshift with the light throttle
• Boost builds... but then starts to flutter. (boost, dump, boost, dump, cycling boost/dump about every half second).
• Light tunes will flutter between 10 and 15 psi, more aggressive tunes will flutter between 15-10 psi.
• Pattern will continue until I give it enough throttle to get it to kick-down to a lower gear and get the RPM's above 2,200 or so
• hardest to reproduce with stock tune, but I think mostly because it won't build much boost in that scenario.
  
• flutter noise sounds like wastegate is opening rather than BOV, but can't be sure.
  
• If I just boot it, the transmission kicks down a gear or two, boost builds without flutter, rocket ship takes off just fine, but light to medium throttle causes this extremely annoying behaviour

I can't figure out what is causing this...




• Is the wastegate being commanded to dump boost by the ECU, or a boost leak?
• I would suspect a boost leak, perhaps boost burping out of a hose clamp at higher pressures, but it seems to hold pressure fine when the RPM's aren't low...
• Should my transmission be kicking down at those light throttle pressures to keep the rpm's higher?
• Is it detecting knock and dumping wastegate pressure?
• Thoughts that this is related to my specific 'strategy code', as all aftermarket tunes just build upon the base strategy code?
• Any other thoughts as to what is causing this and possible remedies?

Other info:

• I believe the 2011's had integrated mechanical wastegates...
• The drivers side turbo was previously removed and reinstalled by Ford to install a block heater as part of a TSB, and given their track record, I don't trust they did everything perfectly. They say they've checked there work and everything is fine (though initially there were loose bolts, hose clamps, etc.)
• I believe there is a TSB for some 2011 EB's for sticking wastegate actuators, though this doesn't seem as much like sticking as being commanded to open.

Ideally, I'd just bring it to the dealer and have them diagnose and fix it, but I have no confidence in them. I've tried several of the dealers in my area and they all seem to be inept at any diagnosis or troubleshooting that doesn't involve check-engine-lights and specific 'pinpoint diagnosis' tests associated with the trouble codes.  Plus it's hard to reproduce on city streets in an urban area, so it usually means scheduling a day to leave the car, dealing with a rental, then just getting it back with a 'could not reproduce' or 'normal operation' result and zero progress.

Have you checked all the piping to make sure it is not cracked or loose?  Oil in the intake or intercooler?  Does the intercooler have the fix/TSB applied?

It can always be a sticking wastegate, but I would get those things off my checklist first.

Quote from: SHOdded on July 04, 2015, 01:48:12 PM
Have you checked all the piping to make sure it is not cracked or loose?  Oil in the intake or intercooler?  Does the intercooler have the fix/TSB applied?
It can always be a sticking wastegate, but I would get those things off my checklist first.

I've tried to check the piping as much as possible... No visible cracking, clamps all seem tight.  Access is pretty tight, so it's hard to really check it all out without a lift and removing the wheels and fender liners, but it seems good. Plus, if it was a boost leak, wouldn't it bleed boost when I have high boost at higher RPM's? It only seems to flutter when below 2,500 RPM. Really more like 2,200 RPM max.

No intercooler band-aid's... Original intercooler, no restriction devices.  I've never had the water ingestion/fall on it's face problem. My understanding is that the various revisions of intercooler TSB's just went from bad to worse in an attempt to limit flow and charge cooling to reduce condensation.

Don't know about oil in intercooler... No catch can or weep hole setup at this point. 

I certainly agree with SHOdded,would definetly check all the hoses and especially the wastegate hoses and the actuator itself could be bad,also check the solenoid valve may be sticking causing your issues,check for any random misfires on cylinder 1,and 4,BTW has Ford updated your PCM. Z

Quote from: ZSHO on July 04, 2015, 05:43:13 PM
I certainly agree with SHOdded,would definetly check all the hoses and especially the wastegate hoses and the actuator itself could be bad,also check the solenoid valve may be sticking causing your issues,check for any random misfires on cylinder 1,and 4,BTW has Ford updated your PCM. Z

Thanks...  Will try and check more, though I'm still thinking it's a strategy glitch as the pressure normally holds fine. 

QuoteBTW has Ford updated your PCM

Do you mean the hardware or just a revised strategy?  With the dealers around here it's like pulling teeth to get them to do something simple like 'Check if my PCM has any strategy updates... If it does, load the revised strategy'.  Should be simple, no? But instead it's 'we can't replicate any problem, and can't check the strategy or update it unless we have a problem'. 

I guess I'll just tell 'em to do it on my nickel and have them charge me for several hours of labor for ten minutes of an actual tech's time, and have about 50% confidence that they did it correctly.  I so wish there was a mechanic I trusted with IDS hardware and subscriptions...

Here's a datalog of the flutter...

Again, doesn't flutter at higher rpm's or in other situations, so I'm thinking it is not a boost leak. Plus the wastegate signal is going high, so it looks like the PCM is commanding it to open?  Why?

(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-9gCFwsz/0/L/i-9gCFwsz-L.jpg)

First, I agree with everything Manu and Z have suggested and encourage a diligent search of those things you can check. As far as a strategy update... The last one for the SHO was about six months ago... And my dealer did it without my asking (a good reason not to be tuned at the dealer)... If your dealer is won't even look, maybe a change is in order.

I would bet your KR rises in these conditions... Basically lugging a little... And the ECU (PCM) is pulling timing and so dumping boost to prevent knock or misfire.   I would suggest that the 3.5 TT GDI like to be pushed.  I have found that developing a touch for a one gear downshift has improved my performance and kept my KR 0.  Does the fluttering happen when you acellerate hard enought downshift?

Just my $0.02.  ...good luck with the problem.

I have this same issue going up a steep hill to my house. Car wants to be in 4th 20-25 up the hill.

Force a kickdown and it stops.

Max negative KR all the way up.....(Blend torture test😈)

The 2013 behaved the exact same way....stock or tuned.

Hoping the dreaded "megaknock" doesn't pay a visit.

I have felt this same issue in my wife's '13 F150 both stock and tuned. I think it's just the nature of the ecm trying to deal with the scenario some of us put the EB into. I have also had this happen in my tuned '13 SHO on the same local highway hills.

IMO, I think it's normal behavior given the circumstances.

Great feedback...

My original strategy was much better in shifting performance, a light touch on the throttle would instantly and seamlessly put it in a lower gear, much how our Audi and BMW's I've owned in the past shifted.   It was, in fact, one of the things I liked best about the truck when I bought it.

Along with an unrelated TSB, Ford flashed a PCM update and the shifting strategy has never been as good. Around town, kick-downs aren't nearly as seemless and you really have to give it plenty of throttle... What typically happens is no kickdown, boost builds, RPM's rise, THEN it kicks down anyway with a huge rush of power. Not smooth or natural.

For this particular problem, it usually occurs when i'm driving at highway speeds, 55-70, typically mountain driving conditions. I want a little more power, not gobs of it. I'd be happy to have it downshift a single gear quickly and spool up a bit, but it won't do that... I either feather the throttle and potentially get flutter or womp the throttle a good bit and I'm gone. 

I've heard some suggestions that bad or weak HPFP's can cause a bunch of bizarre symptoms, but again, I wouldn't think it would happen in only in a lower rpm (lugging?) situation.

Even the custom tuners don't want to (or can't) put the 'breath on it to downshift' characteristics back in my truck.... Moral of the story: If your truck or car is running well, do everything possible to prevent the dealer from 'upgrading' it!!!

Doubt if fueling causes your concern. I have lost the LPFP in my car... This results in a wrench from the HPFP which is a low fuel rail pressure warning and also a communication code is set for communication to the ECU... If you don't have a wrench or codes set I suspect the programming and nature of the 3.6 GDI are what's happening.

I've got plenty of FRP even with 30% E with a splash of M, so I don't think that is the issue.

Seems like it just may be a glitch in the matrix...

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 04, 2015, 09:26:12 PM
Max negative KR all the way up.....(Blend torture test)

The 2013 behaved the exact same way....stock or tuned.

Hoping the dreaded "megaknock" doesn't pay a visit.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?  Max negative KR? Megaknock? 

QuoteSeems like it just may be a glitch in the matrix...

Then I need the red pill.

By the way... As you can see from my post count, I'm new here. But thanks for the great info, seems like a knowledgable and helpful group. Not a given in the forum world these days.

Quote from: pfbz on July 04, 2015, 06:16:52 PM
Here's a datalog of the flutter...

Again, doesn't flutter at higher rpm's or in other situations, so I'm thinking it is not a boost leak. Plus the wastegate signal is going high, so it looks like the PCM is commanding it to open?  Why?

(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-9gCFwsz/0/L/i-9gCFwsz-L.jpg)

You have it a little backwards. When the wastegate duty cycle goes high it's keeping the wastegate CLOSED longer in an attempt to increase boost.

Your wastegate duty and map readings are peculiar and suspect. WDC should be much smoother and nowhere near as jagged as your pic, along with the map reading as long as you were steady on the pedal. Speaking of that I would've like to see actually throttle angle and pedal in that  log. I'm guessing that wasn't a canned tune. you peaked at some boost at well over 20 psi which surprises me because you said it was fairly light throttle and steadily increasing....

I had some weird issues early on when trying to make really high boost at very low rpms. I never really isolated what it was. But I switched who tuned the car and I also suspect that I may have had some corrupt tune files.

I had made some tunes where I was making about 24 psi at about 1800 rpm's and the car didn't like it and it surged and acted weird until rpms went higher

Also, ACTUAL THROTTLE ANGLE should be added to everyone's config files when they log. These cars do some weird things and controls engine output in a lot of different ways and times via the throttle. It's good info to see.

Sorry if that doesn't help much

Does thus issue manifest even when stock?  I have a hard time believivg it's the tune if a reputable tuner was used.  20 psi is well within range/duty cycle for an F150EB turbo, just a question of right time, right place.

I assume you have tried:
1.  Pulling the neg battery cable for 30 min, reconnecting then letting pcm relearn
2.  Checking and cleaning MAP sensors, throttle body with MAF/electronics cleaner
3.  Changing spark plugs if they have >20,000 miles on them, otherwise checking existing plugs fir fouling/wear/cracked insulator/etc
4.  Getting gas from a top tier/high volume gas station
5.  Checking trans/differential fluid for condition/fill level

Where are you located by the way?  Knowing that will help our members point you to a good dealer/service center.  Shouldn't cost more than 1/2 to 1 hr labor to check/update pcm (return to stock first of course).

How to reset your KAM
http://youtu.be/hZAsoqmqhdM

So many great suggestions, I am not sure if I missed it but when this happens what is your KR reading? I am also leaning toward the truck is trying to protect its self. I am also assuming that the truck is fine at WOT from a stand still? Is it ok when you stand on it at say 55mph?



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Quote from: ajpturbo on July 05, 2015, 02:56:16 AM
... Sorry if that doesn't help much

Actually, it's very helpful. In that particular dataset, I don't have the throttle angle... I do have 'load', but I think that's a calculated value.  And yes, that is a custom tune, but I've seen the exact same behavior on the canned SCT tunes... The only difference is that instead of fluttering between about 20psi - 15 psi, it flutters between 15 psi and 10 psi.  Very strange.

I was curious to see your modification list. Z

QuoteDoes thus issue manifest even when stock?

Yes, but much harder to reproduce. It just doesn't build much boost in that situation until you really put your foot into it and it downshifts a gear or two. The lousy response is one of the key reasons I felt a tune might help

QuoteI assume you have tried:
1.  Pulling the neg battery cable for 30 min, reconnecting then letting pcm relearn

My understanding is that a fresh SCT tune load reset the KAM. It certainly seems like that, as the first start after a load involves a much longer crank cycle before fire.

Quote2.  Checking and cleaning MAP sensors, throttle body with MAF/electronics cleaner

Checked and cleaned MAP sensor in manifold, in 2011's I believe the map sensor near the airbox is only used for temperature. Ordered a new motorcraft MAP sensor as well, will install next week.

Quote3.  Changing spark plugs if they have >20,000 miles on them, otherwise checking existing plugs fir fouling/wear/cracked insulator/etc

Yes, several spark plug changes. Happens even after fresh plugs, Motorcraft with the revised gap specification. New boots as well.

Quote4.  Getting gas from a top tier/high volume gas station

Yup. Doesn't seem to be gas dependent at all. Premium fuel only.

Quote5.  Checking trans/differential fluid for condition/fill level

No, haven't checked that.  I atually suspect I might have some transmission issues...

QuoteWhere are you located by the way?  Knowing that will help our members point you to a good dealer/service center.  Shouldn't cost more than 1/2 to 1 hr labor to check/update pcm (return to stock first of course).

I'd love a service recomendation. I've been less than impressed with the service I've received. Attention to detail just seems *way* off.

Quote from: pfbz on July 05, 2015, 12:00:31 AM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 04, 2015, 09:26:12 PM
Max negative KR all the way up.....(Blend torture test)

The 2013 behaved the exact same way....stock or tuned.

Hoping the dreaded "megaknock" doesn't pay a visit.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?  Max negative KR? Megaknock? 

QuoteSeems like it just may be a glitch in the matrix...

Then I need the red pill.

Well, my car is happy during that scenario so I get max negative KR or in other words it is advancing timing under those conditions.

But.....there is a phenomenon called megaknock that only seems to happen on DI cars.....the Mazda Speed community is all too familiar...this megaknock is very fast and extremely destructive. Ford has implemented strategies to combat this so either they are being cautious or they have attributed some engine failures to this. It typically happens in low rpm high boost conditions.

Again... Thanks for the great replies... Folks here seem to be way more informed on this type of issue than the truck-specific forums.

QuoteHow to reset your KAM...

Can anyone verify that a fresh SCT 'return to stock and load custom tune' resets the KAM? If not, I need to modify my test procedure.

Quote...what is your KR reading?

My knock reading looked extremely screwy... No positive knock and massive negative knock, but still way retarded timing. I'll post another screen capture.

Quote.I am also leaning toward the truck is trying to protect its self.

Sure seems like it, but it doesn't seem like it should have to... Why TF can't it just drop a gear without me putting my foot into it??  It would make much more sense then chopping boost and timing. Something like this: 
IF (bad s*** is detected) AND (rpm's are really low) AND (current gear is 4,5,6) THEN (downshift quickly and resample)

QuoteI am also assuming that the truck is fine at WOT from a stand still? Is it ok when you stand on it at say 55mph?

Yup, works great tuned and stock in both of those scenarios...

also...

QuoteI was curious to see your modification list.

Pretty much stock mechanically.. Slightly oversize tires (285/70-17, 32.08" diameter), AEM dry-flow air filter, boost gauge.

I apologize for so many questions,just trying to help you out,but when did you install the boost gauge?did you have these issues even before that. Z

Quote
I apologize for so many questions,just trying to help you out,but when did you install the boost gauge?did you have these issues even before that. Z

I had the same thought. Even though the boost gauge has been on the truck for years, I did take it offline (removed the T, went back to 100% factory vacuum plumbing) with no change in behavior.

Here is a screen capture with the knock and advance readings.  Things start to look very screwy here to me, so much so that I wondered if I was getting correct data.

(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-tJ2rXSZ/0/L/i-tJ2rXSZ-L.jpg)

I'm no expert at reading these, but it looks to me like the timing is way retarded, and the kr is way negative which should be advancing the timing, but also super spikey.

I also have some questions on how dealer or factory strategy codes relate to custom tunes, but I'll start that on a new thread to not get things too off course here.

Wow ok, -63 and 61? That looks really weird indeed. -4 and 7 should be the max. At least it is on my SHO. . There should also be a curve to it adding timing. I


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Quote from: ShoBoat on July 05, 2015, 04:14:41 PM
Wow ok, -63 and 61? That looks really weird indeed. -4 and 7 should be the max.

Yup. Looks like screwy knock data for sure.  I'll try and get another dataset with throttle position and hopefully accurate knock and advance data as well.  I used this dataset originally as the boost/wastegate data lines showed exactly what I was feeling and seeing on the boost gauge.

Do you guys have a favorite parameter set for on-device SCT ecoboost data captures?  It seems like many of the parameters are redundant or have bad data...

I think you need a good custom tune or another custom tune. Something is wrong with that log lol....I'll PM you and send you my email or maybe I can find your email and send you the config file that I log with. You should down load livelink Gen 2 if you haven't already. You may need that to use the config file I send you.


I could be wrong but the PID I log for knock says "knock sensor" not just knock like your pic shows. Sometimes there is  a PID related to knock that show a level of knock percentage or knock level. And I wonder if that's what yours is showing because I highly doubt you are pulling or adding 60 degrees. Or it could be knock ignition limit. At coasting a part throttle you very well could be at 60 of ignition advance so it's making me wonder.

Quote from: SHOdded on July 05, 2015, 05:22:02 AM
20 psi is well within range/duty cycle for an F150EB turbo, just a question of right time, right place.

You think so? Surely you are not talking about a stock tune? I don't know that trucks all that well. I figured they were similar turbos if not the same but maybe the trucks were cammed different along with a different intake manifold and maybe ran a few more pounds of boost to get the 420 torque rating at the crank.

He was up at around 23-24 psi  based on his first log pic. that's pretty aggressive for just a tune

Throw some corn at it

Rich

F150s are not using the same turbos as the SHO.  Their turbos are larger, and tuners (yes, reputable ones) regularly put them into the 20+ range. "K03 turbochargers with 51mm OD FMW compressor wheels" as quoted from Full Race's page.  You can see their writeup here:
http://www.full-race.com/articles/what-is-ecoboost.html (http://www.full-race.com/articles/what-is-ecoboost.html)
http://www.borgwarner.com/en/News/PressReleases/BWNews/01%2005%2012%20BorgWarner%20Turbocharging%20Technologies%20Help%20Ford%20Ecoboost%20Engines.pdf (http://www.borgwarner.com/en/News/PressReleases/BWNews/01%2005%2012%20BorgWarner%20Turbocharging%20Technologies%20Help%20Ford%20Ecoboost%20Engines.pdf)

I am almost certain a tuner can make you a custom tune that will allow for an earlier downshift. Adjusting the throttle angle vs the peddle angle would help as well. It would take a lot of communication with the person making the tune but I think you could get a nice tune tailored to your needs and be happy with it.

If there is nothing mechanically wrong with the truck as of now. I know my 13 did the same thing yours is when I was in Colorado. I'll find out what the 15 does there this weekend.

Ok...yeah looking at atp site I see the stock sho turbo has a 49mm compressor wheel....different but not vastly different

It would seem strange for ford to use completely different turbos on an engine with the same displacement and compression and configuration

I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Heres a very cool article to enjoy for all of us. Z    http://www.full-race.com/articles/inside-the-ecoboost-f-150.html (http://www.full-race.com/articles/inside-the-ecoboost-f-150.html)

Quote from: ZSHO on July 06, 2015, 11:41:26 AM
I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Z

Correct...but that's not that big of a difference...but there is more to it than that I know..I just changed turbos on my civic went from a 61mm comp wheel to a 58mm...slightly noticeable

Back to the OP guys -- I still vote boost leak. Are you getting an overboost condition? I explain it pretty well here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU)

There is a vacuum line that falls off on the ecoboost engines, and can be causing this flutter. Does it sound similar to what I have in here?

Do you hear the wastegate opening and staying open? Listen closely when you accelerate to hear the mechanics of the waste gates.

Quote from: ajpturbo on July 06, 2015, 11:47:25 AM

Quote from: ZSHO on July 06, 2015, 11:41:26 AM
I believe the F-150 has a 51mm OD . Z

Correct...but that's not that big of a difference...but there is more to it than that I know..I just changed turbos on my civic went from a 61mm comp wheel to a 58mm...slightly noticeable

The f150 3.5 is quite different than the sho 3.5. They used forged internals, different cams/heads, fuel injectors (I think) and HPFP.

Wouldn't say QUITE a bit different.....May have some different components  but it's a 3.5 ecoboost.....Way more similarities than not...More accurate to say for all intents and purposes that the engine is the same than to say they are vastly or quite a bit different....Not like one is boosted and one is not or that the one has different bore and stroke or compression.

Quote from: ajpturbo on July 06, 2015, 12:55:12 PM
Wouldn't say QUITE a bit different.....May have some different components  but it's a 3.5 ecoboost.....Way more similarities than not...More accurate to say for all intents and purposes that the engine is the same than to say they are vastly or quite a bit different....Not like one is boosted and one is not or that the one has different bore and stroke or compression.

OR... you are looking at it in to large of a scope. It's like saying a green banana and a yellow banana are the same inside when in fact they are not. :-X:P

Interesting that the F150 gets forged piston rods.... Thought they were all just cast from those metal beads ford uses.

The blocks are physically different castings to boot (obviously).  But I would agree with wasinger's that they are "different".  There's more major component differences than shared...i.e. pistons, rods, heads, cams, etc.  Dimensionally some of those components might be identical but their physical make up are not the same.

The F150's 3.5 is designed to handle more torque and loads, hence the major forged component.  The SHO's 3.5 is was not designed the same and I personally would have loved to seen those same forged internals in the SHO 3.5.

Not knocking anyone or their opinions here, just my observations.

So...back on the topic again... :)  I still believe the engine is behaving "normally" and there is possibly some minor hole in the tuning (i.e. fuel/timing/etc. tables) where under these unique circumstances it's seen.

I am having the exact exact exact problem on my 2012 f150 ecoboost have you guys found the fix yet?! I joined this forum just for this thread.

Quote from: rondeau13 on October 06, 2015, 04:52:50 PM
I am having the exact exact exact problem on my 2012 f150 ecoboost have you guys found the fix yet?! I joined this forum just for this thread.

No, honestly I forgot about it.

I will try to remember to log mine and post up the results.

I can log mine as well and post the results. If I remember correctly my waste gate duty cycle while the flutter happens is a fairly jagged line on the graph. So I don't know if it's a mechanical problem or a tinning problem. I had a 5 star towing tune and I could get the flutter to happen but the boost was lower on that tune and now with this performance *** tune which is totally crazy and awesome I can get the flutter going and it's very apparent. The boost also comes on at lower rpm and higher psi with the *** tune. I know some guys on other forms/threads talking about a ripped diaphragm in the waste gate. I'm leaning toward the waste gate solenoid not being strong enough to hold the boost therefore it flutters. But would it make sense that the log would pick this up if it ecu wasn't telling it to do that?

The issue is the wastegate opening and closing aggressively. Here's the proof. Now what's causing it I don't know. Maybe a weak wastegate spring? Or what ever sensor that controls the wastegate solenoid is maybe bad? I talked to my Turner, he says it's a truck issue not a tune issues. And that makes sense because the issue is happening with multiple tunes.

Won't let me post an attachment... 

What format and how big is the file?

2MB limit.  Zip is ok.  Otherwise dropbox or google drive link are good options.

There we go.

Id have to see the entire log but i wouldnt really worry about the wastegate reading...it smooths out rather quickly..in the beginning when u nail the throttle it will take time for the ecu to fine tune the wastegate duty.

But whats more concerning is ur throttle angle shows 90...it shouldnt exceed 82...max throttle angle allowed scalar has obviously been changed...at high boost pressures the risk with a 90 degree throttle angle is the rushing air wont allow it to close and the 8 degree difference does nothing to obstruct airflow so no performance gains

But that's the thing it happens when I'm not mashing the throttle to get it to behave like this. The pictures I posted show me mashing the peddle after lightly applying for a few seconds to log the flutter the because I don't want anything to explode I mash it down because at higher rpm the behaviour stops. I can lightly apply throttle and hold it there for ten seconds (that's a long time) and it will fuller the entire time.

quote author=ajpturbo link=topic=4958.msg85437#msg85437 date=1444257915]
Id have to see the entire log but i wouldnt really worry about the wastegate reading...it smooths out rather quickly..in the beginning when u nail the throttle it will take time for the ecu to fine tune the wastegate duty.

But whats more concerning is ur throttle angle shows 90...it shouldnt exceed 82...max throttle angle allowed scalar has obviously been changed...at high boost pressures the risk with a 90 degree throttle angle is the rushing air wont allow it to close and the 8 degree difference does nothing to obstruct airflow so no performance gains
[/quote]

I only see wastegate duty cycle fluctuating right around when u nail it ...and at part throttle the wastegate duty is always all over the place

It really could be a multitude of things and without the tune its rough...if the desired tip multiplier and or desired tip adder  is turned up in an attempt to raise boost then the noise u are hearing may not be wastegate noise at all..if the desired tip is up the throttle will do what it wants to give the commanded torque and if the throttle is partially closed like at part throttle and the turbo is being told to ramp up then ive heard fluttering noises because the airflow is fighting the throttle plate

OK I received a tune revision from the tuner I will try it and see. Thanks for your input it definitely shead some light on this for me
I will report back after I try a few things

Quote from: ajpturbo on October 07, 2015, 07:07:25 PM
I only see wastegate duty cycle fluctuating right around when u nail it ...and at part throttle the wastegate duty is always all over the place

It really could be a multitude of things and without the tune its rough...if the desired tip multiplier and or desired tip adder  is turned up in an attempt to raise boost then the noise u are hearing may not be wastegate noise at all..if the desired tip is up the throttle will do what it wants to give the commanded torque and if the throttle is partially closed like at part throttle and the turbo is being told to ramp up then ive heard fluttering noises because the airflow is fighting the throttle plate

OK so the revised tune still makes the flutter. But it's alot tamer. Would it have anything to do with the manifold pressure being 255 kpa when the noise/stumbling starts to occur?  I noticed this on the data log. It is the same on both the original and revised tune.

Hard to say...id like to see a full wot log if u have one...255kpa in the manifold?...nice...run it hard no mercy lol...how long do you hold that?

255kpa is 22.29 psi love it

Are you seeing oil/water accumulation in places like the intercooler, intake piping, turbo piping etc?  Checked the pipes for cracks (they can be hard to spot, particularly next to the clamps)?  Clamps nice & tight?  Check & clean the MAP sensors with MAF cleaner also.

2013, right?  The wastegates are electronically controlled, don't know how different it is from previous years in actual operation.  Here's a TurboSmart (mechanical) replacement unit with installation instructions:
http://www.stage3motorsports.com/TS-0215-1367-2013-2014-F150-EcoBoost-TurboSmart-SP-Supersonic-BOV.html (http://www.stage3motorsports.com/TS-0215-1367-2013-2014-F150-EcoBoost-TurboSmart-SP-Supersonic-BOV.html)
http://www.stage3motorsports.com/assets/images/Turbosmart/Install%20Instructions/TS-0215-1367%202013-2014%20F150%20EcoBoost%20TurboSmart%20SP%20Supersonic%20BOV%20Instructions.pdf (http://www.stage3motorsports.com/assets/images/Turbosmart/Install%20Instructions/TS-0215-1367%202013-2014%20F150%20EcoBoost%20TurboSmart%20SP%20Supersonic%20BOV%20Instructions.pdf)
Tech + marketing blather:
http://www.turbosmartusa.com/technical-articles/flutter-compressor-surge/ (http://www.turbosmartusa.com/technical-articles/flutter-compressor-surge/)
F150s have bigger turbos, can handle more psi efficiently than the SHOs.

255 is 37.9 psi... Unless I missed something in the conversation. It jumps to that then slowly comes down while I'm still accelerating. Also my truck is a 2012 and the wastegate actuators seem to be controlled my manifold pressure. Is it possible that the springs inside the actuators are to week to hold that kind of boost and it's making them chatter?

I run the Afe intercooler and a Rx catch can and I've cleaned all my intake track sensor the piping and inter cooler are clean. I'm leaning toward the turbo smart wastegate actuators as my next upgrade.

Quote from: ajpturbo on October 08, 2015, 03:19:15 AM

255kpa is 22.29 psi love it

I think you have to subtract ambient pressure which is around 14.7?

Quote from: rondeau13 on October 08, 2015, 09:28:29 AM
Is it possible that the springs inside the actuators are to week to hold that kind of boost and it's making them chatter?

It's possible, but we'd need to know the specs on the OEM actuator to be sure.  TurboSmart promises much better/more even control than OEM, so it may resolve the issue for you.

Do you feel any unevenness in the power delivery when the "flutter" happens?  A wastegate issue is usually immediately noticeable.

zzfab / rondeau13-- did you watch this video yet? does it sound the same as this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU)

Yes there is unevenness for sure when the flutter is happening it's like I'm going in and out of boost...

Do you feel any unevenness in the power delivery when the "flutter" happens?  A wastegate issue is usually immediately noticeable.
[/quote]

That's my video blog. I had the same issue. Its explained in the audio of the video, but essentially your car is detecting an overboost and opening the waste gates. it could be a cracked pipe, it could be the same issue with the hose, or it could be a variety of other issues. Sometimes I feel the boost, sometimes I don't. When I lay into the throttle it feels like a naturally aspirated Taurus.

Quote from: 14SHOCAR on October 08, 2015, 11:09:35 AM
That's my video blog. I had the same issue. Its explained in the audio of the video, but essentially your car is detecting an overboost and opening the waste gates. it could be a cracked pipe, it could be the same issue with the hose, or it could be a variety of other issues. Sometimes I feel the boost, sometimes I don't. When I lay into the throttle it feels like a naturally aspirated Taurus.

That is the worst feeling in the world. I experienced that when the tech forgot to tighten the clamp on my CAC.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 08, 2015, 11:16:48 AM
That is the worst feeling in the world. I experienced that when the tech forgot to tighten the clamp on my CAC.

Between the downpipes and the tune issues, I was VERY frustrated. And I didn't even know where to start. Stock Tune had the same issues. Luckily I saw that hose came off.

I will check the tightness and locations of my lines and hoses tonight. Thanks and great video

I just read that high boost at low rpm can cause compressor surge dee to the engine not consuming enough air because of the low rpm. Just a thought. I'm hitting 22 psi at 1800rpm so this is definitely a possibility

Very well could be...i had this early on and i couldnt make the car like it much ...that just goes to show u that turbo lag is non existent in the ecoboost motors...22 psi at 1800rpm is pushing them hard....the tune has compressor surge pretty well defined as far as airflow so you shouldnt be exceeding that but without the tune hard to see whats really going on

Wired part is that there isn't really anything special about this tune other than its made for performance with the aftermarket parts that I have but other than that it's a tune that works for other ecoboost f150s

So I checked my vacuum hoses cleaned all sensors and still getting flutter. So I loaded my five star back on. Problem solved

Probably saved yourself an engine in the process!  What kind of psi are you seeing now in the low rpm range?

Funny you mention that, I've just been reading about some knock sensor shenanigans....

Bad thing can happen when you remove the ECMs ability to pull timing.....

Max boost anywhere in the rpm range is 16.5 with the five star compared to 22.2
So much safer

I'd love to see that *** log.

I know he "fires customers" for sharing them with anyone besides himself and his crew but I don't get the impression that will be an issue going forward.

Red flag anyone?

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 11, 2015, 11:19:39 PM
I'd love to see that *** log.

I know he "fires customers" for sharing them with anyone besides himself and his crew but I don't get the impression that will be an issue going forward.

Red flag anyone?

Fires customers lol..how does one survive like that?....i dont think he would like me much

He doesnt like people looking at his logs lol?...no secrets in a log....thats actually an opportunity to showcase your tune and the skills tou have as a tuner

Its been an interesting day of reading....especially over at 150.net.

Whats the website?...maybe someone could use a good dose of ajp lol?...i like reading about people being all bent out of shape

Ok, dumb question time.  I scanned the entire thread and did not see the "he" that is referred to.  Who is the tuner in question?

Run from that company as fast as you can...that guy is a raving lunatic that just got booted from my drag times page. He flipped out and started attacking everyone....that's after he researched guys names on the list and personally called them on the phone offering free tunes.

Run, now, don't look back...

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my mks does it occasionally...usually when ive been cruising and slow down significantly and need to speed back up. it wont downshift and just lugs itself trying to build some boost.

does it on my 87 and 89 octane unleashed tunes.

then, i press the throttle a hair more than already what is a ton and it double downshifts and takes off. my wife hates it when shes driving because it'll jump and throw you in the seat like you are an idiot at driving.

So here's an update and answer to this problem with no name. ITS COMPRESSOR SURGE!!  Not good. Here's a perfect example of what my truck sounded like only difference is that it was at low rpm. But all contributing factors were there, load, high boost. Watch this video please.   https://youtu.be/nCj6Spwl1CU
So I'd like to thank my tuner for reducing the life of my turbos. Thanks

Quote from: 65fastback2+2 on October 13, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
my mks does it occasionally...usually when ive been cruising and slow down significantly and need to speed back up. it wont downshift and just lugs itself trying to build some boost.

does it on my 87 and 89 octane unleashed tunes.

then, i press the throttle a hair more than already what is a ton and it double downshifts and takes off. my wife hates it when shes driving because it'll jump and throw you in the seat like you are an idiot at driving.

This sounds similar to how both SHO's behaved tuned or untuned. It happens going up hills and the car is about 0 psi, right on the edge of vacuum/boost. It doesn't sound like rondeau's vid though, its hard to explain the sound....to me it sounds like the turbo is stalling or having trouble breathing....some kind of turbulence in the airflow. Forcing the car to downshift fixes it. When this occured KR pegged at -5 everytime.

I went for a drive the other night and the new E20 tune seems to have fixed the issue on the 2015, it's no longer doing it.

If anyone has any ideas what the sound actually is, I'd love to hear them.

I'm not reading this whole thread there are too many pages. I've had something similar to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU)

Are you throwing a code? It sounds like surge. Does it sound like mine?

Okay, so I just registered specifically for this thread.  Hello!

I am having the same issue with my 2015 SHO that the OP describes.  And I mean EXACTLY.  Low RPM flutter/surge on the highway as you attempt to gently increase speed up an incline.  If the car is able to gear down, the problem stops completely.  It is faint enough that the dealer obviously can't "replicate," and I'm afraid I was not surprised.

Was there ever a resolution?  Or did those here decide it was a natural characteristic of the EB?

I checked all the hoses on the top of the engine very carefully -- all are soft, pliable, and properly connected.  I also cleaned out the CAC, and I'll be putting new plugs in next week.

I am disturbed that a tune only made the matter worse, as I was hoping a tune would be the solution.  I know Torrie at Unleashed told me he could make the car downshift faster from 6th to 5th, so maybe that's the answer . . . .

Quote from: John Miller on April 15, 2016, 06:52:59 AM
Okay, so I just registered specifically for this thread.  Hello!

I am having the same issue with my 2015 SHO that the OP describes.  And I mean EXACTLY.  Low RPM flutter/surge on the highway as you attempt to gently increase speed up an incline.  If the car is able to gear down, the problem stops completely.  It is faint enough that the dealer obviously can't "replicate," and I'm afraid I was not surprised.

Was there ever a resolution?  Or did those here decide it was a natural characteristic of the EB?

I checked all the hoses on the top of the engine very carefully -- all are soft, pliable, and properly connected.  I also cleaned out the CAC, and I'll be putting new plugs in next week.

I am disturbed that a tune only made the matter worse, as I was hoping a tune would be the solution.  I know Torrie at Unleashed told me he could make the car downshift faster from 6th to 5th, so maybe that's the answer . . . .

Welcome aboard John,please follow this link and introduce yourself and we will proceed from there,thanks.  Z   :)     http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html)

Its starting to sound more interesting....they way you are making it sound it sounds like a hole in a tune perhaps

Be nice if someone could capture a data log....i know in higher gears like 5th and 6th the tq converter commands less slip at lower rpms and i dont think the car likes it....i used to feel a slight bucking and quite knocking that drive me nuts....didnt see rpm surging but i wasnt looking...i added a little slip below 1500 rpm and it seems fine now

I was actually leaning towards it being a trans/converter issue at one point. But the more I experience it, the less I think that.

The only thing that makes me think it's not a tune issue is the reporting by others that it is worse with the tune than with stock.

I haven't got around to buying a tuner yet, as I didn't want to start down the road of the added expense and warranty concerns with a aftermarket tune until I was sure this issue was not a mechanical problem. So, I can't datalog yet. Maybe it is in my best interest to go ahead and buy the tuner and get the data logs done, and then see what I have before I start on the road of an aftermarket tune.


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Quote from: John Miller on April 15, 2016, 08:35:32 AM
I was actually leaning towards it being a trans/converter issue at one point. But the more I experience it, the less I think that.

The only thing that makes me think it's not a tune issue is the reporting by others that it is worse with the tune than with stock.

I haven't got around to buying a tuner yet, as I didn't want to start down the road of the added expense and warranty concerns with a aftermarket tune until I was sure this issue was not a mechanical problem. So, I can't datalog yet. Maybe it is in my best interest to go ahead and buy the tuner and get the data logs done, and then see what I have before I start on the road of an aftermarket tune.


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John how many miles on your SHO? Do you have over 15k on her?  Z

Yes, I have a 23,000 miles on it and counting.


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Quote from: John Miller on April 15, 2016, 09:21:27 AM
Yes, I have a 23,000 miles on it and counting.


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I would simply check to see if a strategy update is in order by your dealer.  Z

I have had something simular when I had both sides VTA.  But it was only up in the mountains under cruise control. I went back to 1 VTA and that seemed to help

Dealer checked - no new programs and no trouble codes.

VTA?


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Vent to Atmosphere for the blowoff valves.  HowTo video:
https://youtu.be/kF7ix_ZxcCM

Generally, only the front is done, as the rear BOV is harder to access.

Gotcha.

If both are vented, and closing one helped but didn't solve, wouldn't that again point to it being a boost issue as the original cause of the flutter?


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Some type of issue related to boost, yes.  But where exactly has been hard to locate, maybe in the feedback circuits, assuming boost is even built at all under the given conditions.  And your SHO is not currently VTA'd anyway, right, John?

From my experience it seems to be from a combination of sources. Trying to maintain speed up a climb the computer calls for more boost.  Then the computer may begin to detect knock or low speed pre ignition. So it dumps boost and the process starts again. But if I dropped the trans down a gear the problem went away. 

The car thinks it has enough power to meet the required load but then its just not working out. It needs to downshift but the programming doesn't call for it

Not VTA'd. Stock now, though I did just order a tuner to datalog and will look to tune once comfortable with the idea.

In the end, if I can get comfortable that this is not a mechanical problem that will get worse, having the trans kick down to 5th sooner (via a tune) might be a viable fix.

I drive 120 miles round trip each day, over mountains, and this flutter deal really hurts my enjoyment of a car I otherwise love.


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Quote from: John Miller on April 15, 2016, 01:23:15 PM
Not VTA'd. Stock now, though I did just order a tuner to datalog and will look to tune once comfortable with the idea.

In the end, if I can get comfortable that this is not a mechanical problem that will get worse, having the trans kick down to 5th sooner (via a tune) might be a viable fix.

I drive 120 miles round trip each day, over mountains, and this flutter deal really hurts my enjoyment of a car I otherwise love.


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Whats your elevation?  Z

Depending on exact location, between 350 and 800 ft above sea level. Northern Virginia


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Hello all,

2014 explorer sport.  Have the same issue as the OP.  Present since day 1.  I suspect all 3.5 ecoboosts do it.  If anyone wants to find out, vent the bypass valves to atmosphere, find a long slight hill on a highway and keep the vehicle at 65mph without letting car downshift. You will here the bypass valves dump boost every second or so.  It is not the wastegates.

For me, it was present at stock, worse with the addition of my downpipes, and worse with diablosport tune.  Downshift with a little gas or the paddles and it all goes away. It's annoying and I still am trying to find out if any tuner can tune it out.  I think its too much boost under partial throttle and little bit of load.

If it was too much boost the wastegates would open more and wastegate duty cycle would decrese.....i think its something else

Tori at unleashed tuning says that he can make the car gear down to fifth sooner. Seems to me that is the answer. In the next couple days, I am going to data log the event on the stock tune. It is my hope that I can send that to Tori, and he could see the event, and see where it occurs based on throttle position, boost, RPMs, etc. From there, I'm hoping that he could make it downshift immediately preceding the event.


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AJP turbo,

Some thoughts, what do you think?...

I do not think the wastegate is opening under such low throttle and load.  I think Ford has set the wastegates to remain closed at lower load to keep the tiny turbo's spinning and avoid lag.  I don't know what the wastegates are set to open at under such low loads, but maybe they are programmed to open at a higher throttle/load/pressure.  For me this all occurs at 1/4 throttle or less.  Maybe they are not opening and that is the problem.  They are not opening by design, but there is too much boost in the intake for the engine to use at such a smaller load, and instead of the bypass valves being opened when throttle closes to dissipate boost, they are opening to dump too much boost for the engine to use.  Is that possible?
Maybe a tuner can jump in?

I data logged it and sent in the Unleashed.  He is going to compensate by making the car gear down to 5th faster.  I suspect they'll be some tweaking necessary to get that exactly right, but I'll let everyone know how it goes.  He got the tune to me already, but it will be tomorrow (at least) before I can get the thermostat, plugs, and tune into the car.

In the meantime, the data log config I used (per Torrie) had 36 PIDs.  For the tuner types out there, if there are specific ones you want to see, list them out.  I'll single them out within Livelink during the time the flutter is occurring, take a screen shot, and post up for the group.

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/Flutter_zpstdt0yazu.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/Flutter_zpstdt0yazu.png.html)

Wastegate in maroon, boost in orange, actual throttle angle in purple, RPM in light green.

Stating the obvious:  Boost and Wastegate Percentage keep dropping and bouncing back up.

Quote from: John Miller on April 20, 2016, 07:00:03 AM
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/Flutter_zpstdt0yazu.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/Flutter_zpstdt0yazu.png.html)

Wastegate in maroon, boost in orange, actual throttle angle in purple, RPM in light green.

Stating the obvious:  Boost and Wastegate Percentage keep dropping and bouncing back up.

That is great work.  The wastegate is dumping. I know for sure that in my explorer, the bypass valves are dumping as well (very clear if you vent to atmosphere as a test), and I wonder if that is because in your logging, the throttle position seems to increase and then decrease as the waste gate dumps and this opens the bypass valves.  Again, I wonder if this is all because of Ford trying to prevent turbo lag and they keeping the turboes spinning at such low rpm's and part throttles but its too much boost for the amount of load the engine is under.  I have started using the paddles to downshift at any point where I have found this to occur.

Did you log desired tip? Post the log if u can

And see if the bypass valve pid is in the config. I dont usually look at the pid but i think the bypass valve is on/off so see if it pulses with the wastegate

This is strange but i would lean to a hole in the tune rather than hardware..the stock tune can have holes also

Torque converter speed ratio pid will help you see if its going in and out of lock...but i. 6th gear it locks fairly early for fuel economy...around 1400 rpm i think but need to look

What rpm and load is it

Okay, I don't have my laptop with me, so I'll look at the logs tonight and see if those PIDs are there


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What is the boost/load rpm ?

Not sure what you are asking.

Btw, retread your first post - I can tell you from memory that desired and actual throttle position are nearly identical.


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Curious of the load when its happening?...and desired tip is turbo inlet pressure

Gotcha - will look tonight.


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Desired tip is basically desired boost....so if that is flat and tip is rising then its attempting to maintain boost but it doesnt have to be that abrubt...the wastegates should operate smoothly.....that seems like a hole in the tune..wastegate duty should be smooth and sweeping and cruise and while steady on the gas pedal

Also want to log desired intake cam timing and actual intake cam timing and see if the cam is rolling...shouldnt be but if you are at an rom where its transitioning that that can affect load which would show as pulsing...the cam should roll smoothly

AJP turbo,

I see you have downpipes like I do, and I am presuming you don't have the same issues with the partial throttle mild surging.  If that is the case, can I ask you, are you running a custom sct tune and who did the tuning or a canned tune, since I would like to try the tune you are using and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.

I havent noticed this issue but id like to see the exact operating conditions and see if i can replicate

I am running my own tune now....in the past i had an unleashed tune and didnt notice it either

The closest tune you could get to me now would be to contact matt at gearhead automotive performance....my tune is becoming vastly different lately though

Quote from: xkrexplorer on April 20, 2016, 01:52:41 PM
AJP turbo,

I see you have downpipes like I do, and I am presuming you don't have the same issues with the partial throttle mild surging.  If that is the case, can I ask you, are you running a custom sct tune and who did the tuning or a canned tune, since I would like to try the tune you are using and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.

xkrexplorerer if you would be kind enough to setup a signature,thanks.  Z :)

Quote from: xkrexplorer on April 20, 2016, 01:52:41 PM
AJP turbo,

I see you have downpipes like I do, and I am presuming you don't have the same issues with the partial throttle mild surging.  If that is the case, can I ask you, are you running a custom sct tune and who did the tuning or a canned tune, since I would like to try the tune you are using and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.

I suspect the issue is very common, but not throughout. Perhaps strategy driven? Especially since everyone I have found complaining about it said that it was worse with a tune, presumably since the boost jumps are exacerbated.

I bet many probably have it and don't know it, since the conditions have to be so specific. If you drive entirely in the city, or have a heavy foot that forces a downshift at every hill, you my never notice it.

I agree with John Miller, its there.  If you drive the thing like you stole it, you won't notice.  If you are on a rough and non smooth rode or an older highway, you may think its just motion from the highway. For me, on the drive home from work, I have a very gradual incline on the highway.  Maybe rises 300 feet over three miles.  Cruising at 65 mph on this incline, my explorer will buck ever so slightly as long as gas pedal is depressed 1/4 or less.  Give it gas and accelerate or downshift and its gone. You can feel it in the wheel and slightly in seat.  Passengers may not notice it.  Radio off, and I can hear the bypass valve dumping if I concentrate.  So I vented my front bypass valve to air and went for a ride.  Sure enough, dumps boost, cycling every second or so as long as I am under those conditions. Worse when temp is colder for me.  Does not occur in open loop (wot or when engine warming to operating temp).  I can also replicate it pretty much on demand on shorter country rode hills if I give 1/4 or less pedal and don't let the car downshift.  I am guessing in the city, no issue really or if you have a heavy foot, you won't notice.

Agree 100% - except I never noticed it being worse in colder weather. The rough roads thing is the reason my dealer couldn't replicate -- all the highways around them are rough as hell.

I thought the steering wheel feel was my imagination - glad to see I'm not crazy :)

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TIP Boost is orange, Tip Boost desired is bold green.

Load is the thinner lined green. 

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/Boost%20and%20Load_zpsciuaccyt.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/Boost%20and%20Load_zpsciuaccyt.png.html)

Check this out.  It is a small piece of a different run under similar conditions.  It shows boost (orange) and boost desired (green) in 6th gear, then a downshift to 5th (blue).  Look how much it smooths out with the downshift.

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/Boost%20downshifting%20to%205th_zpsvsjgvrwr.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/Boost%20downshifting%20to%205th_zpsvsjgvrwr.png.html)

Again, this is a different run than the rest of the data logs I posted both before and after this post, so don't try to match it up against the other logs.  This run was specifically to log the 6th to 5th results.

AJP, I did find "Intake Cam Position Desired."  Not sure if this is what you were looking for.

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/Intake%20Cam_zpsu0n5eadf.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/Intake%20Cam_zpsu0n5eadf.png.html)

What is the rpm in 6th?...im sure you didnt log this but it would be nice to see torque converter speed ratio....i bet the converter is going in and out of lock....thats easily adjusted and makes sense that when u downshift you get into a part of the converter map where you are staying in or out of complete lock instead of maybe cycling between the two quickly...maybe...

And you logged intake cam desired...which is good but then u want to view intake cam actual to see if its actually doing what is being commanded

Went out today and got a short run on smaller hill, using the new PIDs.

Boost vs wastegate.  Obviously, the spikes are when I'm feeling the flutter:

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/boost%20and%20wastegate_zpsw79xl2mp.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/boost%20and%20wastegate_zpsw79xl2mp.png.html)

Boost versus torque converter slip and speed ratio.  I'm new to this, but I don't see correlation:

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/torque%20converter_zpsa0i0nkly.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/torque%20converter_zpsa0i0nkly.png.html)

And the Cam stuff up against the boost dip.  Neither side matches desired (light blue line) but it is consistent from side to side:

(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/cidsamuth/cam_zps41gz5wqw.png) (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/cidsamuth/media/cam_zps41gz5wqw.png.html)

That first pic is really good....the bypass valve is the blow off valve not the wastegate

The bypass valve is off/on..a value of 1 is on and 0 is off....see when it comes on boost dips as you said...there are scalars for bypass valve actuation i think...your strategy may have a value close to the load you are at while cruising maybe causing it to occilate..im not sure at this point though...post you log...maybe see what the load is and later tonight ,like really late, i can poke around and see what the bypass scalars show...mine are all stock and i would suspect yours are as well...maybe the explorers have something different

John Miller,

That is great work.  That log of the bypass valve opening an closing is exactly what my explorer sport does.  You and I have the exact same issue.  I do think it may be present in all these vehicles but some are aware more than others, probably because of our driving habits and the roads we drive on bring it out more.

So, got the tune in from Unleashed. He made it downshift  to 5th earlier. Seems much, much better, but let me play for a week and report back.  I want to make sure it is downshifting soon enough as well as not hanging in 5th so long that gas mileage begins to suffer substantially. He already sent me one revision, and it might be good enough.

Also, we're not positive that the cruise control is following the same shifting tables. I use cruise a lot, so I need it to fix there also.

More to follow ....


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The tune is impressive from a power standpoint. Anyone else have some serious wheel hop during the 1-2 shift at WOT? I'm still on the stock, non-PP, Michelins ...

Should have seen the look on the wife's face when it banged second gear and wheel hopped. She's all "What the hell was that?!?!"


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The sound was most likely your tranny binding and not accepting the gear change......i believe the percieved wheel hop is a mis diagnosis ....ask your tuner to lower the shift pressure

Quote from: John Miller on April 21, 2016, 03:16:34 PM
He already sent me one revision, and it might be good enough.

Also, we're not positive that the cruise control is following the same shifting tables. I use cruise a lot, so I need it to fix there also.


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I'm not sure its a problem with cruise. I was watching mine yesterday and the car wasn't in boost it was advancing timing when accelerating.

Fomo was that odd to you?....typically if load is constant the spark curve should advance as rpms increase...more spark can be tolerated because of faster piston speed

Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2016, 04:15:57 PM
The sound was most likely your tranny binding and not accepting the gear change......i believe the percieved wheel hop is a mis diagnosis ....ask your tuner to lower the shift pressure

He put the torque management back to stock and it still does it.

Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2016, 05:37:39 PM
Fomo was that odd to you?....typically if load is constant the spark curve should advance as rpms increase...more spark can be tolerated because of faster piston speed

I'm not sure what you mean by odd, the car felt normal but as the car was transitioning through hills etc, it was well into vacuum and timing was advanced, sometimes +5 (on the KR gauge)to maintain speed. I suspect it is like that for fuel economy.

I haven't driven that route for a while so I have no idea if anything has changed. I doubt it cause I don't think Torrie messes with non-wot unless there's a specific issue to address.

Quote from: John Miller on April 21, 2016, 05:52:26 PM

Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2016, 04:15:57 PM
The sound was most likely your tranny binding and not accepting the gear change......i believe the percieved wheel hop is a mis diagnosis ....ask your tuner to lower the shift pressure

He put the torque management back to stock and it still does it.

Torque management is different than shift pressures and slip times for shifting...you can heavily add torque reductions for power and also make the shifts happen faster or slower

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 21, 2016, 05:52:44 PM

Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2016, 05:37:39 PM
Fomo was that odd to you?....typically if load is constant the spark curve should advance as rpms increase...more spark can be tolerated because of faster piston speed

I'm not sure what you mean by odd, the car felt normal but as the car was transitioning through hills etc, it was well into vacuum and timing was advanced, sometimes +5 (on the KR gauge)to maintain speed. I suspect it is like that for fuel economy.

I haven't driven that route for a while so I have no idea if anything has changed. I doubt it cause I don't think Torrie messes with non-wot unless there's a specific issue to address.

I mean you made it sound like it was odd to see spark advancing while engine speed was increasing.....the engine can handle a ton of spark in vac and the spark tables in the stock tune is conservative i think so the advance from the knock sensor makes sense to me

Okay, the next revision fixed the "wheel hop" issue.  Now, it "bangs" into 2nd from 1st at WOT, as you would expect it to, but no violent shaking feeling.  And, a cursory internet read reveals that the WOT shifts are usually hard after a tune until the car adapts.  I take that with a grain of salt, but it is satisfactory now anyways.

As for the cruise thing, I need to drive it for a week or so and feel it out.  It is unclear to both me and Torrie whether the altered shift points (that mitigate the flutter) apply when the car is operating in cruise control.  Torrie reports there are a total of 10 shift tables, so it could be that the car operates under different tables, presumably still in stock configuration, when the cruise control is engaged.

I will report back for the greater good.

Idont think cruise control uses a different shift table...the shift tables are for the different drive modes...like 4x4 , tow, sand, snow, warmup...they are simply output speed shaft speed bs pedal position

Good info - I will certainly find out :)


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Quote from: John Miller on April 21, 2016, 07:34:21 PM
Good info - I will certainly find out :)


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I dont think you will be able to....scalar descriptions are hard to come by...im telling you what is in the tune...there is a seperate section for cruise control...no shift tables there

I meant I will use the cruise control and find out if the updated shift parameters, already experienced during normal driving, also apply with the cruise on :).

Torrie did mention that there are two shift tables labeled CR2 and CR3. 

I know I said I would report in a week, but my first commute impression:

The last revision got the 1-2 shift from the "wheel hop" feel down to a hard "bang" shift. After one commute in, the adaptive leaning has done the rest ... all shifts are now smooth and just firm enough. Not even the bang feel. Perfect.

As for the flutter at hand, the quicker downshift seems to be an answer. Under almost all the conditions I could previously replicate the flutter, the car will go to 5th before it can happen.

I say "almost" cause, if I try really, really hard on just the right incline, I can ease into the throttle just enough around 65 mph to get it fluttering. But, I really have to get it perfect and I don't think it is something that would happen during normal driving. Probably will end up 95% fixed and a good compromise, as I would hate it to gear down too quick.  And, I think I've worn out my revision grace with Torrie :)

Didn't try cruise today, as I still want to get a feel for the car in its new state.


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Nice detective work, John :thumbsup:

Glad to hear the situation is solved...by the way, I know guys that are on over 50 revisions with Torrie...quite a few actually. You have plenty of those revisions left just so you know.

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Thanks. I don't know it is "solved," but will know more after 5 or 10 more commutes.

I think it is possible that it is downshifting perfectly at most speeds but that there is a small window where it just needs to downshift a hair faster.  I'm not married to that idea though - I need to drive it more.

According to Torrie, the downshift calculation is a function of output shaft speed to throttle position. So, if I do find a window in MPH that needs adjustment, I'll need to data log to find the OSS and actual throttle angle for him.


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Quote from: John Miller on April 23, 2016, 08:35:03 AM
Thanks. I don't know it is "solved," but will know more after 5 or 10 more commutes.

I think it is possible that it is downshifting perfectly at most speeds but that there is a small window where it just needs to downshift a hair faster.  I'm not married to that idea though - I need to drive it more.

According to Torrie, the downshift calculation is a function of output shaft speed to throttle position. So, if I do find a window in MPH that needs adjustment, I'll need to data log to find the OSS and actual throttle angle for him

Keeping in mind that much as we like accuracy, electromechanical interaction means there will be a range you'd need to work with, rather than a fixed point set in stone.  For example, you may be seeing a decay in sensor function over time that forces periodic tune adjustment.  May not be in the best interests of longevity either

That said, def looking forward to seeing how much fine control we have over the SHO :)

Glad to see some progress in the right Direction.  Z   :)

It's been a week with my final revision from my tune from Torrie and I have noticed mine doing the same thing. checked all the hardware checks stated earlier, so I'm guessing I'm going to have to email Torrie as well and see if it will fix mine. I'll report back after I find out something. great thread btw.

It's going to take some trial and error.

I confirmed this afternoon that it must use different shift tables when you activate the cruise control - my early downshift disappears with cruise activated. 

I'm still going to give it some time - I want to confirm whether there are any speeds that I still need a little earlier downshift (to avoid the flutter) and do the OSS logs. Once that is done, I'm hoping Torrie can figure out which table(s) are for cruise and mirror the "perfected" shift parameters there.

Just gonna take time and patience.  Thanks, Ford. After all, the car was so cheap, we should expect to have to find our own answers, right?


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Quote from: John Miller on April 23, 2016, 07:37:15 PM
Just gonna take time and patience.  Thanks, Ford. After all, the car was so cheap, we should expect to have to find our own answers, right?

Fix Or Repair Daily :D

http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-performance/10369-turbo-flutter.html (http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-performance/10369-turbo-flutter.html)

"This is from Braden over at Cobb:

Normal, completely. The design of the wastegate, and the low pressure spring in use make it difficult to control during high load, low rpm conditions. There is a LOT of VCT in action to create exhaust flow along with the boost control solenoid being driven at high duty cycle to allow for nearly instant spool on this engine. The factory tune delays the turbo response in these conditions partially to eliminate excessive load, but also to work around a poorly suited set of hardware. The noises you are hearing are a combination of valve overlap and aggressive wastegate dynamics coupled with a soft wastegate spring opening and closing the flapper as it is overloaded. Once exhaust flow is stabilized the system works extremely well and uses dynamics to keep boost levels near their targets.

As many have stated, downshifting is the best way to avoid these conditions. Generally, anything above 2500-3000rpm is OK in all gears, but starting lower than 2000rpm in 4-6th will net some interesting harmonics. None of which are caused by the bypass valve.

Cheers,
-Braden @ COBB"

Interesting. But .... Is the "flutter" he refers to about a sound, and not about how the vehicle is actually running as described in this thread?


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Quote from: Excalibur on April 23, 2016, 06:54:06 PM
It's been a week with my final revision from my tune from Torrie and I have noticed mine doing the same thing. checked all the hardware checks stated earlier, so I'm guessing I'm going to have to email Torrie as well and see if it will fix mine. I'll report back after I find out something. great thread btw.

Excalibur please add your signature,thanks.  Z   :)

Quote from: John Miller on April 23, 2016, 09:38:24 PM
Interesting. But .... Is the "flutter" he refers to about a sound, and not about how the vehicle is actually running as described in this thread?


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John Please add your signature,thanks.  Z    :)

Signature set up . . . I think.

Now, back to my question about whether the "flutter" referred to on the Focus ST site is only about a sound, or whether this "normal" behavior is also referring to the "feel" that we are getting?  :)

Do you have access to 93 octane in your area?  Z

I do, but I wanted a buffer with the gas. It's a DD, and I don't need to eek out every last HP.


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Quote from: ZSHO on April 24, 2016, 08:05:08 AM

Quote from: Excalibur on April 23, 2016, 06:54:06 PM
It's been a week with my final revision from my tune from Torrie and I have noticed mine doing the same thing. checked all the hardware checks stated earlier, so I'm guessing I'm going to have to email Torrie as well and see if it will fix mine. I'll report back after I find out something. great thread btw.

Excalibur please add your signature,thanks.  Z   :)

done.

For the benefit of others suffering from this affliction, I wanted to circle back with an update . . . and probably call this solved for me.  As discussed, getting the car tuned and having it gear down from 6th to 5th a bit quicker is a nice fix. 

To start with, with just the tune, the issue was mitigated for me; it pulled so much more effortlessly in 6th gear anyway, it really didn't have an opportunity to go into 'flutter' very easily.  I know this is the opposite of what some others experienced with tunes.

But there were some conditions in which it still fluttered.  To rid of it completely, it took several iterations from Torrie on the downshifting.  He tells me the downshifting is a function of output shaft speed (OSS) to throttle angle.  In the end, I had to data log the car with these PIDs, along with those necessary to show the flutter, e.g. boost and wastegate.   Torrie was able to see the OSS to throttle angle ratio when the car fluttered, and make it so the car would downshift directly before that event.

Even then, the first stab using this technique had an issue -- the car wouldn't go to 6th until 62 MPH.  That was too high for me, as I do way too much highway driving to have the car hung in 5th at 55MPH.  So, he made some more changes, and the car will go into 6th if at 54+ MPH.  Even when completely off the throttle coasting from higher speeds, it will downshift to 5th when it hits 54ish, which I can live with.

And, I have been unable to get the car to flutter no matter how hard I try.  As I start up an incline, if I am on the throttle light enough to avoid a downshift, it is not enough to make the car flutter.  If I get on the throttle enough that it used to flutter, the car gears down to 5th instead.  I'm sure it is costing me a little gas mileage.  But, on my commute going 65 MPH over mountains, I am still approaching 29 MPG, so I won't complain.

Still data logging and working through a couple more quarks with the tune, but at least this bit is solved.

Side note on the cruise control:  I can confirm that cruise uses the same shifting tables.  I know because if I set the car on cruise control at 53 MPH, it will stay in 5th gear.

But, interestingly, the computer does everything it can to avoid downshifting to 5th when I set the cruise to 54+.  Even if I set the cruise on 56 MPH and go up a mountain, the cruise is on the gas so light that it won't gear down.  If I am driving without cruise, it is really, really tough for me to not progress the throttle at that speed (to compensate for the hill) without making it gear down.  But, the cruise somehow does it.  I can't complain though -- it still manages to keep speed (thanks to the power from the tune) while not hitting the throttle hard enough to flutter. 

Bottom line, it is my theory that cruise uses the same shift tables, but the computer adjusts its throttle usage accordingly as to avoid downshifting if at all possible.  Just a theory.

Nice writeup/summarization.  Fingers crossed the "sweet spot" holds :)

Final update from me:

Issue solved.  Solution?  Livernois.

Torrie's tune definitely helped 90%.  With the quicker downshift, I could not make it flutter ever when driving it without cruise.  The car would simply downshift to 5th before I could get to the throttle position necessary to make it flutter under every conceivable condition.  I was generally happy with that.

However, after some more playing with it, it would still sometimes flutter with the cruise on.  In my earlier post, I thought it wouldn't flutter with cruise, but it did eventually.  Since the car would never downshift to 5th with cruise on, setting the cruise between 60 and 68 MPH would bring on the flutter on certain inclines.  Torrie was great getting the downshift where I needed it when driving manually, and he made an effort to try and get that quicker downshift with the cruise on, but couldn't make it happen.  I had more or less decided to live with it.

On a whim, I called Livernois.  Anthony was somewhat non-committal about whether their tune would fix this particular issue, but stated he was "confident" it would solve it or mitigate it.  After a talk with management, he agreed to give me a one time "hassle free" return of the tuner if it didn't solve the problem -- putting me at no risk.  I was still hesitant that it was worth my time, so I procrastinated a couple weeks, but I eventually broke out the credit card and spend the 600 smackers.  Installed the V10 93 octane tune, then eventually moved over to the 'soft shift' version of it (personal preference).

Livernois' tune fixed the flutter completely, and that is without a quicker 6 to 5 shift that we were previously using to mask the issue.  I just took a 600 mile trip over that last 2 days, and tried every conceivable speed, incline, and condition to the flutter, and it ain't there.  Even with cruise tried every way I could. 

I am so happy I gave them a shot, and I feel like I can enjoy my commute again.  I guess there really is something to their claim of adjusting parameters within the tune that no one else does.  On a side note, I find their tune less "explosive" than the tunes from Unleashed, but it is smoother, especially at lower RPMs.  Since this is a DD, that works just fine for me.

Nothing against Torrie -- his tune was otherwise fun, and he was very responsive with his updates.  In fact, I was on revision 10 from Torrie trying to chase down this issue before going the Livernois route, so I would certainly recommend his tunes if you don't have the same condition from which I was suffering. 
 

I highly doubt its due to something they can change that others cant but more likely due to someone not knowing how to make an adjustment.

Its not something lms changes but more likely something torrie does that is having an adverse effect.

Wastegate duty cycle modifiers is the culprit if i had to bet , and i dont gamble

I could go into more detail but im not at liberty to do so

Great job informing the community though

Well, remember this problem occurred stock for me, and others in this thread (and in other threads I found) also said it happened stock.  So, it's not a problem created by the aftermarket tunes, Torrie or otherwise.

I read at least two others say it was worse with a tune.  Though the additional power of Torrie's tune changed the MPH at which the flutter would occur for me, and though the quicker downshift made it only happen for me with the cruise on, it was worse with a tune when it did happen. I presume because boost and other power-making conditions only exacerbate the sensation.

But, again, nothing with Livernois.  I can't say what they did differently, obviously.  And, I'm positive it was nothing "on purpose."  Whatever they did and for whatever reason, the issue doesn't exist with their tune.

Thats all good...we will never know but there are some things that people can do that i think can contribute and make worse but who knows....wish i could give you a tune but cant at this moment....enjoy your car

Whatever it takes ... as long as it's worked out :thumb:

Yep, all's well that ends well.  I hope some others with this condition try the Livernois solution.

It is so much better to drive when I don't dread stumbling into the "miss" on every incline at highway speeds :)

Now, who wants to buy a 'like new' SCT tuner?

Quote from: John Miller on May 22, 2016, 07:12:33 AM
Yep, all's well that ends well.  I hope some others with this condition try the Livernois solution.

It is so much better to drive when I don't dread stumbling into the "miss" on every incline at highway speeds :)

Now, who wants to buy a 'like new' SCT tuner?

John thats certainly some great news to hear and hopefully you can start enjoying your SHO for a long time,when your ready to sell your tuner just follow this link and best of luck on all fronts.  Z   :)    http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,997.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,997.0.html)

Good info. Mine is still gone from what I can tell. Torrie's revision fixed it.

Wow!  Surprised that I hadn't seen this thread before now. 

My car is driving me nuts.  Stock it is only mildly annoying, but with either of my SCT based tunes, it is unbearable.  The stutters that happen between 1300 and 1600 rpm under load are just incredibly annoying because I live in the mountains.

I had decided that mine are converter related, but this has me wondering.  For some reason, the stutter is significantly worse when tuned than when left stock.  I keep running a tune for a few days at a time with the idea of getting a data log, but end up going back to stock after a few days because I can't stand the way it drives.

I don't think it's the tuners, but something that is wrong with the car that gets exacerbated with the tunes.  Dealer can't replicate because it's mild untuned and I don't want to tell them that it's tuned for warranty sake.

Mine was driving me nuts and was certainly worse with tune. I tried plugs, cleaning the oil out of the CAC, Etc. Dealer couldn't replicate it when stock - like you said, it was too mild.

But, again, Livernois's tune took it out. Been gone for months. This was not placebo - the change was very obvious. And I'm not a Livernois homer - I have my critiques too of them. And this was obviously an accident that their tune did fixed it, but who cares. It worked.


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Small bit of data...

The wife took a mechanic buddy for a ride today.  He watched a ton of parameters while she drove and found one odd thing...

The amp reading for Shift Solenoid C goes up each time the car stutters.  Next step is for him to research to see if it's related.

Fingers crossed that they find a fix.  It's not so bad stock, but becomes highly annoying once tuned.

Possibly a weak solenoid then, interesting!  Fix would be either a new solenoid body assembly, or new PCM.  Good time to replace the TSS & OSS sensors too!

Shift Solenoid A (SSA), Shift Solenoid B (SSB), Shift Solenoid C (SSC), Shift Solenoid D (SSD) and Shift Solenoid E (SSE)

Five shift solenoids are used for electronic shift scheduling. The 5 solenoids are located in the solenoid body. SSA , SSB , SSC and SSD are Variable Force Solenoid (VFS). SSE is an ON/OFF shift solenoid. Shift solenoids SSA , SSB , SSC , SSD and SSE provide selection of 1st through 6th gears and reverse by controlling the pressure of the shift valves. SSA and SSC are normally low-pressure solenoids. Pressure increases as the PCM activates the solenoid. SSB and SSD are normally high-pressure solenoids. Pressure decreases as the PCM activates the solenoid. SSE is normally closed and opens when the PCM activates the solenoid. The solenoids are activated by the PCM controlling current flow at the solenoid ground circuit, this is known as ground side switching.

SHOLXGT - not sure if you have the logs from the mechanic's diagnosis but, if so, check out my logs posted a couple pages back.  See if there are any similarities


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We seem to be having the same exact symptom happening under the same conditions...under load, light throttle, going up hill, 1400 or so rpm, but seem to have different reasons possibly.

The most noticeable things in my logs are the fluctuating rpm and fluctuating converter lock percent.  The rest of my logs look normal to me, but I'm no expert.

Here's some logs from my SCT.  Car is stuttering between 0 and 5 seconds.

(http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/aemrick/MKS/Capture4.png)

(http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/aemrick/MKS/Capture3.png)

(http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp190/aemrick/MKS/Capture2.png)

Dont forget the PTU is also a candidate under those conditions.

If it was a mechanical issue, I don't think the Livernois tune would have fixed it for me the way it did.


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I am glad it worked for you, John :)  I hope it is a cure in sholxgt's case also, but keeping options open is needed at this stage.

Just sharing my experience and talking through the logical conclusions, if any. Take it or leave it.


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Agree with all here!

My basic plan is to see if the dealership can fix it first, since there is a problem stock.  Mechanical?  Tune?  Not sure which, but I'll let them try first. 

If unsuccessful, I'm open to the idea of a Livernois tune.  Especially if they will cut me a take back deal like they did for you.  In the end, I just want my "not cheap" car to run decent.  It should not run the way it does.  I was very close to buying outside of the blue oval for the first time in a long time when I got the MKS.  I'm starting to think that I should have. 

i think my car may be experiencing this.  i feel a surging sometimes cruising at 1500 rpm and my gas mileage has gone down to below 13mpg.

any new answers?

Checked codes and all the usual trouble spots?  MAP sensors, intercooler, pooling oil, cracked hoses...?  Oxygen sensors and fuel injectors would be next.  Then possibly a sticking wastegate.