So i have put my girl back in her summer mode once again, a little early this year. Installed my H&R's, summer wheels, tune, intake and 3 bar. Mine has the V8 LMS tune. I started seeing some KR at lower RPM's at 60 to 70 mph at mid throttle. Then I started to replicate the issue while logging with Forscan and my laptop. AT mid throttle (without downshifting) (once boost got above 4 PSI) I was seeing KR of 4.5???? I decided to try some WOT runs, no KR to speak of but I am getting a hesitation (shudder) at the top end to 2nd and 3rd. I checked all the usual suspects, oil in the CAC nope. Plugs, changed them and gapped to 30. Air cleaner check. Fuel was the last on my list as we still have winter gas in the pumps, changed stations and filled up with 94. No change. Called LMS and they said its probably the fuel. SO in goes some 110 Octane fuel. That should fix it? Nope.... So I then tried to load the 91 V8 tune. Same issues. Frustrated I went to the stock tune and the issues go away. I changed the map sensor only and returned it to stock. All other mods stayed on the car. I even swapped out the map sensor to rule that out. No luck. It was running strong at the end of last year with no problems with the tune and all the mods. I did put the winter package on a little early so it was still above freezing when I did.
Any thoughts? Has anyone experienced similar issues?
I have noticed at any speed if I accelerate w/o enough throttle to get a downshift KR will rise. As far as the stutter... Makes me think about the transmission speed sensor... I think there is a TSB on that.
Thanks BiGMaC, I will look into that. Interesting that it only happens with the Tune loaded. That will be difficult to explain to the dealer lol.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I see the same thing in terms of knock with winter gas but I don't have any hesitation so I'm not sure your symptoms are related?
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 05, 2015, 01:17:08 PM
Thanks BiGMaC, I will look into that. Interesting that it only happens with the Tune loaded. That will be difficult to explain to the dealer lol
Larrylu had a heck of a time getting them to replace his, but it resolved the shift problem... Otherwise gotta look to the tuner about excessive shift pressures ... Often over 200psi will cause problems.
Have you tried to something to eat up the possible water build up in gas tank?
Almost sounds like infant stages of injector issue also.
Rich
It could be the case that the 2 are unrelated. I will speak to my Dealer regarding the TSB. I will also be speaking to LMS on Monday. The KR was non existent last year in warmer weather. Thanks for the responses.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 05, 2015, 01:35:11 PM
Have you tried to something to eat up the possible water build up in gas tank?
Almost sounds like infant stages of injector issue also.
Rich
Injector issues, damn I'll look into that one too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: BiGMaC on April 05, 2015, 01:02:09 PM
I have noticed at any speed if I accelerate w/o enough throttle to get a downshift KR will rise. As far as the stutter... Makes me think about the transmission speed sensor... I think there is a TSB on that.
Some e-85 will stop that completely and give you -KR instead :)
^^ I wish but I can't get my hands on it here :(
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Shoboat, you could drop a couple bottles of heet in on next fill up his in case its H2O in the tank.
Heet just happens to be 99% meth as well....
Did you check for any loose turbo,cac,wastegate hoses being loose or split due to the cold weather,also clean those map,iat sensors with some maf cleaner.Z
Thanks for all the responses, I did double check the hoses. I am going to be tearing all of the hoses off and clean the tb and sensors tonight. The heet idea also sounds interesting. I am also going to take some pics of the intake valves with my snake cam. Will report back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 05, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Thanks for all the responses, I did double check the hoses. I am going to be tearing all of the hoses off and clean the tb and sensors tonight. The heet idea also sounds interesting. I am also going to take some pics of the intake valves with my snake cam. Will report back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wondered about the valves as I read over your posts...great idea.
When you logged did you notice any changes in fuel data compared to old logs?
Rich
When issues "go away" with the stock tune, it is usually because the engine/drivetrain is not being asked to perform to as tight a tolerance as with a tune. So what might be acceptable stock/OEM, becomes unacceptable tuned.
^^^agreed
Simple change of trans fluid stopped my 1-2 shift stutter.
Rich
So after a bit of time messing around in the garage, I am no closer to discovering the culprit. I have looked into the intake and CAC with my snake cam. Found noting really special in the intake, no real additional build up on the valves. And the CAC is bone dry. Cleaned the TB and sensors. I have gone over the logs and compared them to last year the only thing that stands out is the outside temp. Today it's a balmy -1C and like my friends to the South we also had some snow overnight. Since I also tossed in 10L of 110 race gas, I'm thinking it's not fuel related.
The shudder is registering as misfires (feels like it too) on Forscan and Torque. With the stock tune it's perfectly fine, no shudder and nearly 0 KR at all. At least the list is getting smaller.
Spark blowout? (Doesn't explain the KR) Also plugs are at 30.
I know that with the V7 LMS tune some were reporting similar issues. Maybe Tune? In combination with the cold? (Could possibly explain both)
Injector(s)?
I still plan on getting with the guys at LMS tomorrow and see what they have to say. I should be able to get my dealer to do the TSB for the trans.
SHOnUup I had my trans fluid changed last fall. But thanks anyway.
Oh one other thing, what all the talk of blowing turbos with induction cleaning. Is anyone still doing this? I wanted to have this done (again) this spring but am on the fence.
No codes being set? I know you said Forscan/Torque are registering misfires. I would pay attention to a faulty injector possibility, maybe more than 1. How are the fuel pressure readings?
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 05, 2015, 06:54:19 PM
Oh one other thing, what all the talk of blowing turbos with induction cleaning. Is anyone still doing this? I wanted to have this done (again) this spring but am on the fence.
I don't think the BG service is really worth it. I had the service completed 6-6-14 @ 33,291 miles.
I just rechecked my intake valves and CAC today.
I'm now at 39,400....... So a little more than 6,000 miles and they still look like this......
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/d2c5788b9c1be678a7c9a670f6d3b1e6.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/05/f2c7a7a6365d89f12460f71205f46254.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost 3bar
more to come.....
Fuel pressure looks normal, no codes just some misfires. Interesting on the BG service. How did the CAC look glock-coma?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll take a pic later. I got about 3 oz out again. I really need to install the catch can I bought from SwampRat...lol
So a small update, I swapped out the plugs again and no change. I then proceeded to re clean the 2 map sensors and I reset the learned behaviour through Forscan. (Reset trans and other adaptations). Weird it's not as bad as it was. Even KR seems to be lower than before. It's still there but not nearly as severe. More to come.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 07, 2015, 01:55:46 PM
So a small update, I swapped out the plugs again and no change. I then proceeded to re clean the 2 map sensors and I reset the learned behaviour through Forscan. (Reset trans and other adaptations). Weird it's not as bad as it was. Even KR seems to be lower than before. It's still there but not nearly as severe. More to come.
As metioned a while back,cleaning those map sensors is crucial for optimum performance,did you try swapping both the 3-bar sensors around and monitor for any changed reading,maybe a new 3-bar map is in store.Z
Still in the learning phase, then? Let's wait a bit and hope it resolves ...
Quote from: ZSHO on April 07, 2015, 02:16:02 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 07, 2015, 01:55:46 PM
So a small update, I swapped out the plugs again and no change. I then proceeded to re clean the 2 map sensors and I reset the learned behaviour through Forscan. (Reset trans and other adaptations). Weird it's not as bad as it was. Even KR seems to be lower than before. It's still there but not nearly as severe. More to come.
As metioned a while back,cleaning those map sensors is crucial for optimum performance,did you try swapping both the 3-bar sensors around and monitor for any changed reading,maybe a new 3-bar map is in store.Z
I have swapped around the sensors, did make any difference at the time. Going to replace the plug boots tonight and clean all the IC piping. See what that does.
Always learning SHOdded ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn lol your posts make me tired with all the plug swapping and hardware cleaning and what not that you do lol...Your anal!
Just reading through, you said when you returned to stock the retard went away...Well that tells me tune not hardware that you have been investigating, maybe certain areas in your tune are slightly over advanced and LME is just relying on the knock sensors to do their job? Not a terrible thing as long as it not pulling crazy amounts of timing all the time.
And you got me thinking, are you logging with Live link? I always log "knock sensor" and when I see a value of 2 it's adding 2 degrees there. So I wonder if you are interpreting the PID reading wrong. When you see the PID called Knock sensor retard and see +4.5 are you just assuming that it's pulling 4.5 degrees? Because if I saw -4.5 I would assume that means it's pulling timing but if you saw that you would assume it's adding 4.5 degrees.
I didn't think you are logging with live link so it just makes me wonder if your logging app calls the PID that reads the knock sensor "knock sensor retard" the same that Live link calls "knock sensor" in which case a positive number means it's adding timing.
If you are looking for the value to be 0 all the time you may never be happy. It's kinda like why there are 02 sensors....You will never have short term fuel trims at 0. They are constantly making small adjustments to compensate for component wear, failed parts and poor tuning etc... as long at the knock retard isn't going crazy all the time it might not be so terrible for the sensor to give readings hear and there...BUT over 4 degrees is getting a little on the high side one way or the other...Worst case your timing is over advanced and you are relying on the sensor to pull timing and best case you are retarded and making less power momentarily until the knock sensor decides it's safe to add a little more.
Shoboat, if you dumped a tank of 87 on your stock tune, you would probably have a stroke due to the amount of +KR activity, LOL!
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 07, 2015, 08:43:53 PM
Shoboat, if you dumped a tank of 87 on your stock tune, you would probably have a stroke due to the amount of +KR activity, LOL!
May be a thing to consider not withstanding everything else... What brand of gas are you using... In AZ the octane rating can be as much as 2 points below posted signage.... Low octane will up your KR real quick with s performance tune.
I know SHOBOAT has a 13 SHO with more than average mileage,anything over 60k on it due expect to change a part or two,due to normal wear and tear which could be validated,recall a while back when they had issues with the 13+SHO because the encoding/programming was different and they had to adjust the tune which closes the throttle blade at various points and open it much slower to keep from having the hesitation issue which later with the V8 Tune was fully rectified.
Interesting ZSHO. I'll have to speak to LMS regarding that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Shoboat u may need medication for a busy mind lol...programming changes all the time during a run of the same body style nothing new there..that why there are many different strategies
Ur tune may just need a tweak due to something being slightly different than last season...or let the sensors do what they do and work for u....sounds like u are reaching for some wierd reason causing a slight quirk....maybe it's time for lms v9 tune lol
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 08, 2015, 09:44:26 AM
Shoboat u may need medication for a busy mind lol...programming changes all the time during a run of the same body style nothing new there..that why there are many different strategies
Ur tune may just need a tweak due to something being slightly different than last season...or let the sensors do what they do and work for u....sounds like u are reaching for some wierd reason causing a slight quirk....maybe it's time for lms v9 tune lol
We sometimes like to experiment with our cars and get a true feel on how maybe the oil,fluids look and smell like,nothing better than getting familiar with your car and sometimes even dirty,its a thing called (manual labor)something to take into consideration when your warranty runs out.Z
Most of my warranty ran out when I got home and tuned it...its served me well to do my own work and stay away from dealers...my cars never seem to break Dow tho....maybe luck or maybe from my dirty hands lol...I have a lift so I don't really need anyone's help lol
LOL ZSHO. I do like to work on my cars. I guess from my old days of being a mechanic. But I did a little more messing around last night, I tried the 93 base tune (no mods) and swapped the map sensors. Still had a misfire, however after resetting the adaptations is was gone. For a while at least. I wonder if the dealer when I was last in a few weeks ago did an update? I will get with LMS today and see what they say. Interesting that it was gone when I first reset the adaptations.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
LOL ZSHO. I do like to work on my cars. I guess from my old days of being a mechanic. But I did a little more messing around last night, I tried the 93 base tune (no mods) and swapped the map sensors. Still had a misfire, however after resetting the adaptations is was gone. For a while at least. I wonder if the dealer when I was last in a few weeks ago did an update? I will get with LMS today and see what they say. Interesting that it was gone when I first reset the adaptations.
I'd definitely check on that... if you wrote down your original strategy code you can just ask the car for that code using the MyCal engineering mode... If the dealer updated it you'll have a new SW ID and a new strategy code.
I do know that the '13+ have forward and backward learning, so you can flash any tune... but it might act unusual.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
LOL ZSHO. I do like to work on my cars. I guess from my old days of being a mechanic. But I did a little more messing around last night, I tried the 93 base tune (no mods) and swapped the map sensors. Still had a misfire, however after resetting the adaptations is was gone. For a while at least. I wonder if the dealer when I was last in a few weeks ago did an update? I will get with LMS today and see what they say. Interesting that it was gone when I first reset the adaptations.
I guess the best thing to due is to check to see if your strategy code was changed with your tuner device.
If they did an update your car wouldn't run unless u swapped the 3 bar.....and when u did ur reflash u over write the dealer flash...khdl4tv does have an update...I'll have to look when I get home what it changed to...its useless tho....literally 1 change in the entire tune and has to do with communications
Quote from: BiGMaC on April 08, 2015, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
LOL ZSHO. I do like to work on my cars. I guess from my old days of being a mechanic. But I did a little more messing around last night, I tried the 93 base tune (no mods) and swapped the map sensors. Still had a misfire, however after resetting the adaptations is was gone. For a while at least. I wonder if the dealer when I was last in a few weeks ago did an update? I will get with LMS today and see what they say. Interesting that it was gone when I first reset the adaptations.
I'd definitely check on that... if you wrote down your original strategy code you can just ask the car for that code using the MyCal engineering mode... If the dealer updated it you'll have a new SW ID and a new strategy code.
I do know that the '13+ have forward and backward learning, so you can flash any tune... but it might act unusual.
Hey BiGMaC, you wouldn't happen to know how to enter the Engineering mode on the MyCal?
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: BiGMaC on April 08, 2015, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 11:01:47 AM
LOL ZSHO. I do like to work on my cars. I guess from my old days of being a mechanic. But I did a little more messing around last night, I tried the 93 base tune (no mods) and swapped the map sensors. Still had a misfire, however after resetting the adaptations is was gone. For a while at least. I wonder if the dealer when I was last in a few weeks ago did an update? I will get with LMS today and see what they say. Interesting that it was gone when I first reset the adaptations.
I'd definitely check on that... if you wrote down your original strategy code you can just ask the car for that code using the MyCal engineering mode... If the dealer updated it you'll have a new SW ID and a new strategy code.
I do know that the '13+ have forward and backward learning, so you can flash any tune... but it might act unusual.
Hey BiGMaC, you wouldn't happen to know how to enter the Engineering mode on the MyCal?
I have the previous generation MyCal, part number 45002.
For that one:
-put the car accessory mode by pressing the start button twice without applying the brake...
-connect the MyCal while you a press the "N" and "Up" buttons as you plug it in....
-let communication start...
-on the MyCal, scroll down to ECU CAL/Strategy Code and then press the "Y" button and follow the prompts
Hope this helps
Thanks! I also have the older version.
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 08, 2015, 11:13:07 AM
If they did an update your car wouldn't run unless u swapped the 3 bar.....and when u did ur reflash u over write the dealer flash...khdl4tv does have an update...I'll have to look when I get home what it changed to...its useless tho....literally 1 change in the entire tune and has to do with communications
Thanks Much appreciated! Actually mine is KHDK4KA
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 08, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 08, 2015, 11:13:07 AM
If they did an update your car wouldn't run unless u swapped the 3 bar.....and when u did ur reflash u over write the dealer flash...khdl4tv does have an update...I'll have to look when I get home what it changed to...its useless tho....literally 1 change in the entire tune and has to do with communications
Thanks Much appreciated!
Actually it will run... I flashed mine back to stock and like an idiot didn't change the MAP back to 2BAR one time... runs like a dog when you put it in gear, but started right up and I drove it about 30 miles before it dawned on me what I had done... acts like it's in third gear all the time on surface streets, but runs fine on the freeway.
If you discover a new update on your ECM, check your service invoice to see if they registered an error and changed the MAP as if it were faulty.
I suppose it could run.Mine idled really bad and I wouldn't even have thought to try and drive it....I guess I call that not running....ur O2 sensors were driving ur car at that point lol...fuel trims would've been maxed out because the fuel table and speed density values would be all wrong with the slopes and intercepts....
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 08, 2015, 02:47:59 PM
I suppose it could run.Mine idled really bad and I wouldn't even have thought to try and drive it....I guess I call that not running....ur O2 sensors were driving ur car at that point lol...fuel trims would've been maxed out because the fuel table and speed density values would be all wrong with the slopes and intercepts....
Definitely explains the behavior, LOL
Another update, I decided to move down to the 2 bar tune. And no difference, I then swapped out the 3 bar sensor for my newer one (from the 3 bar tune) reset the adaptations and it appeared to be gone. I picked up another 3 bar sensor and loaded the 3 bar tune again last night. Unfortunately it's been raining for the last 2 days so I haven't been able to really test it out. Although, I did notice that Torque was reporting 16lbs of max boost before the swap. I don't recall ever reaching that much boost in the past. Once the roads clear up (hopefully tomorrow) I will know better.
The KR has not been effected at all by anything I have done.
Great to hear,and hopefully everything is running to its full potential,keep us updated.Z
Misfire is gone! However KR still remains unaffected. 0 RK at WOT though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 10, 2015, 10:22:43 AM
Misfire is gone! However KR still remains unaffected. 0 RK at WOT though.
That seems to be a common experience, KR when part throttle or lugging the engine only. Seems a little more oxygen in the fuel may do the trick, as the issue is not really controllable (thus far, to my knowledge) via a tune. Can you correlate the KR events to trans shift points? That's where it's pointing to on my Edge, and surprisingly, only once the trans temps rise above 100F. Of course, could just be a worn transmission, but doesn't
feel like it at all.
This may be related to this issue? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_pre-ignition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_pre-ignition)
I see this in my car occasionally.
Interesting read, I guess it is quite common. I wonder how the engine oil fits into the equation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So I decided to try a different station for my fill up. Big mistake. LOR went to 83% on Forscan and KR was really bad. Started getting 3 at wot and 5 on mid throttle. 91 tune was only slightly better. So back in goes the stock tune for now. After doing some looking around the net. It looks to be common with 10% blends. Shelf life is max 90 days. And much less in winter months with condensation issues with water contamination. Looks like I will be going to 91 Shell that has no Ethanol.
http://m.click2houston.com/news/gas-station-octane-test-and-investigation/24654338
Interesting vid.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But doesn't the ethanol help raise effective octane?..so u want E0 when most pumps are E10-E15....I thought that's what's so good about E85 is the ocean rating...so with e10 he octane rating will be slightly higher than pure gas at e0
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 12, 2015, 12:18:31 PM
But doesn't the ethanol help raise effective octane?..so u want E0 when most pumps are E10-E15....I thought that's what's so good about E85 is the ocean rating...so with e10 he octane rating will be slightly higher than pure gas at e0
If it's not fresh than no, the issue that I have read is that once the Ethanol absorbs any water it falls to the bottom of the tank at the station. Dropping the rating of the fuel up to 6 points. So basically I paid extra for 88 octane fuel. I am guessing that the last station does not sell a lot of 94. Hence the "bad" gas I got. 94 is a 10% blend up here. There is no where to get anything above 91 that contains 0 Ethanol around here. With the exception of "race gas". Shell 91 here has 0 Ethanol, which supposedly holds its Octane rating longer than an Ethanol blend. So back to the only conclusion that I can draw is that the pumps around here have some old 94 in them. The last in particular was really bad.
Quote from: SHOdded on April 10, 2015, 10:53:52 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 10, 2015, 10:22:43 AM
Misfire is gone! However KR still remains unaffected. 0 RK at WOT though.
That seems to be a common experience, KR when part throttle or lugging the engine only. Seems a little more oxygen in the fuel may do the trick, as the issue is not really controllable (thus far, to my knowledge) via a tune. Can you correlate the KR events to trans shift points? That's where it's pointing to on my Edge, and surprisingly, only once the trans temps rise above 100F. Of course, could just be a worn transmission, but doesn't feel like it at all.
Torrie cured my lugging high kr issue with a tune adjustment. I will post the data log from torque later.
So you have HEET type products available, ShoBoat? Methanol + water dispersant. I am testing it now based on Z's reco, Add a bottle and see what happens.
I'm "testing" as well.....
It's a KR killer....
Quote from: SHOdded on April 12, 2015, 01:43:21 PM
So you have HEET type products available, ShoBoat? Methanol + water dispersant. I am testing it now based on Z's reco, Add a bottle and see what happens.
I have tossed in a bottle of Heet. I will report back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 12, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
I have tossed in a bottle of Heet. I will report back.
Awesome! Good luck!
No dice, still the same. I'm going to run this tank down and try another station.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ran the tank out and filled up at another station. Still no change. Getting KR all over the place.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Knock sensor or wide band O2 maybe?
Rich
It's time for a tune revision friend...I'd ask for V9 tune...something has changed from last year....or like I said before...let the sensors make the changes..that's partly what they are there for...
Think of it this way...u are on the cusp of knock and running the max amount of timing and riding the edge and making max power and the ecu is keeping it in check....revise the tune and pull a few degrees in certain places and u will not have the knock retard but still end up at the same timing because it won't be pulling any ....maybe the ecu is not pulling timing because u have a problem but because u are slightly over advanced to begin with
SHOuUp, doubtful. As I have 0 issues with the stock tune.
ajpturbo. Unfortunately LMS won't even acknowledge an issue. Their take is that monitoring through the OBD2 port is not supported, and very unreliable on the Ecoboost. They will not issue a tune revision, only if I drive down there and put it on their dyno. I understand that the car will adjust and make corrections on the fly based on what is happening. I am still thinking that the fuel has something to do with it. Winter gas really sucks to begin with, I really should have tried the 91 Shell but I tried another 94 Petro Canada. By the end of the week I will have run this tank out and will try the 91 Shell with the 91 V8 Tune. I do know that with the V1 93 tune that I had in it. I ran it all winter long and never had any issues.
Man, I feel like sending you a jug of E/85...lol
Rich
Oops I accidentally hit the thank you button.....anyway sorry if I missed it but have u simply tried a bottle of quality octane booster?
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 15, 2015, 03:38:39 PM
Oops I accidentally hit the thank you button.....anyway sorry if I missed it but have u simply tried a bottle of quality octane booster?
Going to try that today. I have a bottle of Torco Accelerator, going to stick in 16oz and see what happens.
Did the dealer ever re-program the PCM on your last visit?how long have you been using those ngk plugs based on your sig.Z
Quote from: ZSHO on April 15, 2015, 03:49:22 PM
Did the dealer ever re-program the PCM on your last visit?how long have you been using those ngk plugs based on your sig.Z
According to the work order that I got no they did not. I had only 10k km on the NGKs. I swapped them out for a set of SP534. Which made no difference.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-118227.html
A possible cause!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Did you ever check out this TSB REFERENCE.Z TSB #ASI-44315
NHTSA ID #10054975
Date Announced:
DECEMBER 01 2013
Additional Info:
How to Fix
Summary: FORD: DUE TO FUEL VAPOR LINE NOT BEING CONNECTED PROPERLY (FULLY SEATED) TO UNDERSIDE OF FUEL DELIVER MODULE (FDM), WHICH LEADS TO CARBON CANISTER SATURATED WITH LIQUID FUEL AND A FUEL ODOR, SLOW FILL, OR HESITATION OR STUMBLE, OCCURS WHIL
Have you checked the knock sensor wiring. Or bad sensor.
Quote from: ZSHO on April 15, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
Did you ever check out this TSB REFERENCE.Z TSB #ASI-44315
NHTSA ID #10054975
Date Announced:
DECEMBER 01 2013
Additional Info:
How to Fix
Summary: FORD: DUE TO FUEL VAPOR LINE NOT BEING CONNECTED PROPERLY (FULLY SEATED) TO UNDERSIDE OF FUEL DELIVER MODULE (FDM), WHICH LEADS TO CARBON CANISTER SATURATED WITH LIQUID FUEL AND A FUEL ODOR, SLOW FILL, OR HESITATION OR STUMBLE, OCCURS WHIL
I had the recall performed on mine, not sure what it entailed. I know they needed to do something with the fuel pump. However, I have not noticed the other symptoms.
I did put in 16oz of Torco Accelerator to a full tank. Which should raise the Octane 2-3 points. Took it out again, and it's not as pronounced. I loaded the 91 tune, it's all but gone Only a bit at WOT and 2 KR lugging before a downshift. I honestly can't believe that "winter gas" is that different?? If it is the fuel I can't imagine that more people are not having the same issue.
panther I have 0 issues with the stock tune. Even then I did spend a fair bit of time under the hood looking at the knock sensor wires and potential sources of noise. Nada.
Shoboat the fact that it goes away when u return to stock tells me all I need to know and it's all tune....and that the torco helped...that is the stuff I would've said to u use I just didn't know if u had that up there in canadia lol.
And as far as u being surprised that more people don't notice Id say because people don't pay as much attention as u...I've honestly never looked at my spark and knock sensor at part throttle...1 because I didn't adjust timing in that area and 2 engines can tolerate much more timing advance and some knock because it's under light load....and I also wouldn't worry because u are not actually knocking it's pulling timing to prevent it from knocking
ShoBoat, have you looked at your trans shifts at the time the KR occurred? I have noticed that as a possible issue on my Edge most often when slowing to a stop (no throttle input). Maybe even skipping gears. FSM points to valve body/TSS-OSS sensor involvement, among others (first line being PCM/calibration related). I have used 104+ before successfully to mitigate the issue, though not eliminate it.
Yours may be in too early a stage for all/any of the above.
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 15, 2015, 07:02:57 PM
Shoboat the fact that it goes away when u return to stock tells me all I need to know and it's all tune....and that the torco helped...that is the stuff I would've said to u use I just didn't know if u had that up there in canadia lol.
And as far as u being surprised that more people don't notice Id say because people don't pay as much attention as u...I've honestly never looked at my spark and knock sensor at part throttle...1 because I didn't adjust timing in that area and 2 engines can tolerate much more timing advance and some knock because it's under light load....and I also wouldn't worry because u are not actually knocking it's pulling timing to prevent it from knocking
All very true, As you have already noticed that I am a little OCD when it comes to my rides ;) I'm not terribly worried about it, I just need to know why. I understand that the tune is responsible for the issue. I am however convinced that the crappy "winter gas" seems to have a bigger impact on the why now. I am waiting on a friend of mine to get his depot up and running for the season. Once he does I will try a fresh brew of his 100 octane no Ethanol go go juice. I ran that at the track last year with great success. I know what you are going to say. Duh it's 100 it can't pull timing with that in the tank. Well if something has changed in my car it just might. Also the stations around here will be getting their summer gas by the end of the month. I will also be interested to see what that does if anything. I plan on doing an extended log with Forscan with Knock counter and Misfire counter set up for the individual cylinders. I'll report back.
SHOdded. I did take a look at that. I am not positive but judging on the timing (no pun intended) of the KR events it seems unlikely.
For reference. I monitor KR religiously, have it on a gauge that keeps the max and minimum. The winter fuel arrival spiked my KR pretty bad. Figure the tune is way more sensitive to bad fuel than the stock calibration, I mean it can run 87 stock. So putting the tune in which demands a higher octane most definitely shows that the safeguards remain with your tune.
This winter fuel issue sparked my thread about it back on its arrival this winter.
Have you checked your messages for the work in progress formula to LOR gauge. This could determine if it is indeed the fuel or something else.
Rich
Stock tune with 87 is a +KR party.....
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 16, 2015, 08:47:35 AM
Stock tune with 87 is a +KR party.....
Lol...that's a party that needs to be shut down.
Rich
So another update, KR is all but gone. However my misfire is back with a passion. Only over 4500rpm, and only in 2nd and 3rd. I did some logging last night. I have replaced the plugs and boots. Checked all the hoses for potential leaks. Nada. I tried the 93V8, 91V8 3bar tunes and the 91V8 2bar. Pulls smooth with no misfire on the stock tune.
Back to possible fuel injector issue then? Probably did not set a code either, and if so, would need service shop/dealership to diagnose.
Are you getting the genetic misfire code of p0300?
Rich
No misfire code, however I did look deeper into the logs from last night. And it looked like it was cylinder #6 that is the culprit. I decided to swap the coil packs from 4 to 6 and took it out again. It did misfire again once in 2nd gear. (the first pull) Then it was gone, I mean totally gone. Try as hard a I could to get it to and nada??? From a dig to quite fast ;) several times. And several 2nd to 4th gear pulls. Got home and looked at the logs and cylinder #6 had one demand misfire on the first pull (2 actually). Then completely normal. So I am guessing 2 possible causes at this point. The injector was dirty and suddenly dislodged what ever was in it. Or a bad wire or connection to the coil pack on #6. Any further insight would be great.
BTW thanks for all the ideas. Bouncing stuff off you guys has been very helpful.
Loose connection is looking more probable, as long as the misfire does not return. Sometimes it takes a while to show up after.
EGR?
Rich
A few screen shots of the logs. First is the misfire event and 2nd is no misfire.
So I decided to look closer at the wiring on the #6 connecting to the coil pack. I checked the wiring and cleaned the connector with some contact cleaner. Nothing obvious here. I did decide to for a joke swap the #6 plug with the #4. Keep in mind that this is the second set of plugs I put on the car this spring. The NGK's could have been fouled as they had 10K of hard km on them. I then bought a set of SP534 from Ford. And guess what Not a single event on #6 during the drive. There were a few non demand misfires on the #4 though. So it may very well have been a freaking plug. Not discounting the fact that I also cleaned the connector on #6. I will keep an eye on it over the next few days and just to make sure that it was the plug. If it was I should eventually misfire again. Only time will tell.
Well, you've made sure quite a bit of stuff is working right, on the bright side of things.
Rich
The waiting game ... :)
Yup thanks guys for your ideas again. If this helps someone else avoid a little frustration..... :)
Your work is always meticulous and well-documented, ShoBoat. Makes for a great reference point.
Fingers crossed for that pesky misfire to rid itself from your eco.
Rich
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 16, 2015, 11:57:35 PM
Yup thanks guys for your ideas again. If this helps someone else avoid a little frustration..... :)
Glad to hear you have found the culprit. We were confident it was not tune related from start. This is a perfect example of why we do not revise tunes for a vehicle that is most likely having a mechanical problem. We would rather help find the root cause of the issue than make a bad aid tune to appease a customer.
What does a misfire feel/sound like?
Did you ever have any type of BG induction service performed in the past.Z
Quote from: ZSHO on April 18, 2015, 01:31:29 PM
Did you ever have any type of BG induction service performed in the past.Z
No not yet, but I plan on it in the near future.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: PokerMunkee on April 18, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
What does a misfire feel/sound like?
The best way to describe it in the SHO is almost like a popping sound and a shaking from the engine. The car will feel like it's hesitating and power will not feel smooth (obviously).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hopefully its a permanent fix SHOboat,and would avoid any type of B.G induction service to say the least,another note to mention is when i changed my plugs recently found a significant amount of small particles of salt,rocks,dirt between the coils probably from the harsh winter we had,after noticing this the ocd in me took over and grabbed a vacuum and tried to clean the area where the coil sits in,not providing a proper seal if anything is lodged in,or having particles fall inside the spark plug well for sure will cause any potential issues to arrise.Z
It's back. Noticed it last night. Happened to have my laptop on me. Did some logs and now it looks like cylinders 1, 5 and 6 are showing misfires.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was going to post the logs, however I forgot to save the file last night and the battery died on my lap top. This is looking less likely to be an injector issue. As it is happening across different cylinders. It is strange that when it occurs, it only shows on one cylinder. But it does jump around, first pull was cylinder #6 then 5 and the 1. This is getting beyond frustrating. And the worst part about it it that its a random occurrence, I drove it all yesterday during the day. Didn't do it once, then at night it started back up. Now that I think about it once the outside temp is cool or cold it seems to misfire more frequently. That is the only difference that I can think of. It is cool today I will try a few more logs adding in a few more PIDs to get a better picture.
EGR system malfunction can cause random misfires across many cylinders right?
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 19, 2015, 11:37:53 AM
EGR system malfunction can cause random misfires across many cylinders right?
Rich
Not sure, maybe someone can chime in. I am not familiar with the EGR system on the SHO. Just a reminder that it has 0 misfires with the stock tune. I am not sure what impact the tune would have on the EGR system.
Me neither...looking at the generic misfire code of p0300 it points to the EGR or maybe a fuel system error.
Rich
The misfires do not trigger a code. I guess it's under the threshold for the count. But it can be felt and it shows up for the current count on the PID for total misfires for the current drive cycle.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think u all may be reaching if trying to contribute a misfire to an egr issue...most late model cars don't have an egr valve per say like the old cars...egr is done via cam timing through exhaust gas reversion
Just my .02
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 19, 2015, 11:48:35 AM
I think u all may be reaching if trying to contribute a misfire to an egr issue...most late model cars don't have an egr valve per say like the old cars...egr is done via cam timing through exhaust gas reversion
Just my .02
You could be correct, I am leaning towards a winter gas combined with a tune issue. I had 0 issues with the V1 tune. Which I drove on the car all winer long. When I put on the winter tires I put the car back to stock.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Could fuel providers be dumping the last bit of whatever winter blend is left into tanks regardless of octane rating? Wouldn't surprise me.
Rich
I'd really like to know what the problem is...I've thought about it a good bit and I really can come up with anything u haven't already tried
Thanks Guys, I know for a fact that the V7 tune had issues with winter gas. Hence the V7 CW tune revision. I was hoping there was another 13 SHO in Ontario running the V8 tune that could comment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 19, 2015, 12:22:49 PM
Thanks Guys, I know for a fact that the V7 tune had issues with winter gas. Hence the V7 CW tune revision. I was hoping there was another 13 SHO in Ontario running the V8 tune that could comment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know all the intricacies of the lms tunes but I remember reading something about them needing a cold weather tune.....could it be that the v8 tune needs tweaked and u have stumbled upon something because of your attention to detail?
Maybe others don't notice because like u said there is no dtc and if some others aren't logging misfires they wouldn't notice either?
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 19, 2015, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 19, 2015, 12:22:49 PM
Thanks Guys, I know for a fact that the V7 tune had issues with winter gas. Hence the V7 CW tune revision. I was hoping there was another 13 SHO in Ontario running the V8 tune that could comment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know all the intricacies of the lms tunes but I remember reading something about them needing a cold weather tune.....could it be that the v8 tune needs tweaked and u have stumbled upon something because of your attention to detail?
Maybe others don't notice because like u said there is no dtc and if some others aren't logging misfires they wouldn't notice either?
It's possible, however you can feel it. Unless its less severe depending on your location. I have been reading up on winter gas mixes. And it is location dependant, for example my local mix would be different than say NY state. Apparently they add a lot more Butane around here. (it's also really cheap). I have one last ditch attempt. I am waiting on the local race gas station to open this up coming week. I am going to run a full tank of whatever the lowest grade he carries. I think its 98 or 100. If that fixes the issue then we will know what the problem is. Octane itself should not have an impact on misfires, I would think. The composition of the fuel I think would. Also the fact that it doesn't do it when its warmer weather also indicates that it might be tune related in combination with the fuel. The ECU changes the timing and boost according to the ambient temp. Just throwing some ideas out there.
Multiple misfires can also mean pcm involvement. You sure the valve covers are not leaking?
I have really been trying to think on this one,if the misfires are random then it could be low fuel pressure,intead of her running fat and rich,she is running LEAN,BTW there is no V1 or especially V9 tune LOL Z
Quote from: ZSHO on April 19, 2015, 05:29:28 PM
I have really been trying to think on this one,if the misfires are random then it could be low fuel pressure,intead of her running fat and rich,she is running LEAN,BTW there is no V1 or especially V9 tune LOL Z
there was a V1 tune lol, my 13 got the first version of the 13+ SHO LMS Tune. Back in April of 13. Also looking at the logs it's not running out of fuel. You can see one bank go slightly richer when the misfires occurs. Fuel pressure is also good both HP and LP are within range.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I guess the best thing to do is a IDS with power balance to see exactly what cylinders are missing,heres a little video to get an idea,and never knew that the V1 was ever released,recall when Rick from LME mentioned something about it but wasnt sure if it was official.Z https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOFL99D_f4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOFL99D_f4Q)
Thanks for the Vid, there is something similar in Forscan that I am going to try. I am also adding in a few other Pids and see where that gets me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So after a few days of Data logging and a Forscan update, I believe that I have found out the issue. Rail pressure is dropping to below 1000 on the WOT runs. However the fuel to air ratios are within spec just below 11. It looks like the simplest solution is typically the correct one. The "winter gas" which on more research has less BTU energy than summer gas. The, butane and propane that are laced in the fuel in higher quantities mess with the AFR and the car thinks it's running lean and continues to dump more and more fuel to compensate. Add into the mix at least 10% Ethanol and you get the picture. Less BTU energy and lighter fuels and we have a situation that the car can't solve on it's own. This is the reason that on the stock tune the car has no issues whatsoever. With the V8 tune regardless of 91 or 93 map it runs like crap when it gets cooler outside. This is the reason that it went away for a few days, the ambient temp rose above 20C here during that time. Then on Saturday it dropped below 10C. Yesterday the high for the day was 8C. With the increased demand on the car the fuel system in combination with the LMS V8 tune was not up to the task. I sent my logs to LMS which I will post below. I have not had a response as of yet, I don't really expect anything to materialize. Their attitude towards data logging through the OBD2 port is well known. Even though Ford does use it to diagnose your car or truck through the same port. I had a similar issue last spring when I switched to the V7 tune, then the V7CW and finally to the V8 tune. I had my car at the dealer several times looking for an mechanical issue (none were found) with the car and then suddenly it went away all on it's own. This was in May. After it was warmer and the local stations switched from winter to summer gas formulations. I'm not sure if there is a difference with Canadian and American winter gas formulations, or if like me guys in colder climates revert to stock for the winter. This could be the reason not more issues have materialized. I still plan on trying out a 91 non Ethanol fuel and see what that does.
It seems that a few I told you so's might be in order so get it off your chests lol.
I forgot to mention the logs below were taken on the same day same conditions.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 20, 2015, 08:11:14 PM
So after a few days of Data logging and a Forscan update, I believe that I have found out the issue. Rail pressure is dropping to below 1000 on the WOT runs. However the fuel to air ratios are within spec just below 11. It looks like the simplest solution is typically the correct one. The "winter gas" which on more research has less BTU energy than summer gas. The, butane and propane that are laced in the fuel in higher quantities mess with the AFR and the car thinks it's running lean and continues to dump more and more fuel to compensate. Add into the mix at least 10% Ethanol and you get the picture. Less BTU energy and lighter fuels and we have a situation that the car can't solve on it's own. This is the reason that on the stock tune the car has no issues whatsoever. With the V8 tune regardless of 91 or 93 map it runs like crap when it gets cooler outside. This is the reason that it went away for a few days, the ambient temp rose above 20C here during that time. Then on Saturday it dropped below 10C. Yesterday the high for the day was 8C. With the increased demand on the car the fuel system in combination with the LMS V8 tune was not up to the task. I sent my logs to LMS which I will post below. I have not had a response as of yet, I don't really expect anything to materialize. Their attitude towards data logging through the OBD2 port is well known. Even though Ford does use it to diagnose your car or truck through the same port. I had a similar issue last spring when I switched to the V7 tune, then the V7CW and finally to the V8 tune. I had my car at the dealer several times looking for an mechanical issue (none were found) with the car and then suddenly it went away all on it's own. This was in May. After it was warmer and the local stations switched from winter to summer gas formulations. I'm not sure if there is a difference with Canadian and American winter gas formulations, or if like me guys in colder climates revert to stock for the winter. This could be the reason not more issues have materialized. I still plan on trying out a 91 non Ethanol fuel and see what that does.
It seems that a few I told you so's might be in order so get it off your chests lol.
I forgot to mention the logs below were taken on the same day same conditions.
Could it be your HPFP?
Was that pump pressure or rail pressure?
I've seen lower pump pressure than that without misfires and the car held AFR as well.
I ran the gamut of E blends tuned and untuned and the car never behaved like yours.
I did run out of fuel twice this winter but due to bitter cold and me being a little overzealous with the corn :)
You may have more going on than that. I'm lucky to ever see over 1000 psi on the rail. It's no discovery that cold temps, and higher ethanol content will tax a fuel system. Nothing new there. I wouldn't contribute your drop in rail pressure primarily to the temps but more because of the high boost you are running.
I have my tune and trans so that when I'm in Select shift mode and I floor it the car won't downshift and it will hold whatever gear I want. You should see the rail pressure drop when you are at 20 psi and 2000 rpms. It's fallen to 600 psi. I get no misfires but AFR will start to lean.
I'd like to see you log ACTUAL THROTTLE position. I've ran my car 18-20 psi when it was 5 degrees Fahrenheit and it tolerated it. The fuel where I live is E10. It's the boost that taxes the fuel system the most. That's why the METH is awesome. It's extra fuel and gives the cooling since the air is heated so much from the high boost.
The warmer air may make it better for you but I don't know why you are getting the missing....I still have the stock plugs and have run very high boost at 5 degrees F. That's getting pretty cold..
If you have time or get around I'd love to see a WOT pull while logging actual throttle position.
OBD II logging through livelink with SCT is highly accurate and is displaying the readings from the actual OEM sensors that are relayed and interpreted by the ECU so if the car uses them they must be OK
FOMO you beat me lol my post was too long...I was thinking along your lines as well....The misfires are weird to me
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 20, 2015, 08:44:43 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 20, 2015, 08:11:14 PM
So after a few days of Data logging and a Forscan update, I believe that I have found out the issue. Rail pressure is dropping to below 1000 on the WOT runs. However the fuel to air ratios are within spec just below 11. It looks like the simplest solution is typically the correct one. The "winter gas" which on more research has less BTU energy than summer gas. The, butane and propane that are laced in the fuel in higher quantities mess with the AFR and the car thinks it's running lean and continues to dump more and more fuel to compensate. Add into the mix at least 10% Ethanol and you get the picture. Less BTU energy and lighter fuels and we have a situation that the car can't solve on it's own. This is the reason that on the stock tune the car has no issues whatsoever. With the V8 tune regardless of 91 or 93 map it runs like crap when it gets cooler outside. This is the reason that it went away for a few days, the ambient temp rose above 20C here during that time. Then on Saturday it dropped below 10C. Yesterday the high for the day was 8C. With the increased demand on the car the fuel system in combination with the LMS V8 tune was not up to the task. I sent my logs to LMS which I will post below. I have not had a response as of yet, I don't really expect anything to materialize. Their attitude towards data logging through the OBD2 port is well known. Even though Ford does use it to diagnose your car or truck through the same port. I had a similar issue last spring when I switched to the V7 tune, then the V7CW and finally to the V8 tune. I had my car at the dealer several times looking for an mechanical issue (none were found) with the car and then suddenly it went away all on it's own. This was in May. After it was warmer and the local stations switched from winter to summer gas formulations. I'm not sure if there is a difference with Canadian and American winter gas formulations, or if like me guys in colder climates revert to stock for the winter. This could be the reason not more issues have materialized. I still plan on trying out a 91 non Ethanol fuel and see what that does.
It seems that a few I told you so's might be in order so get it off your chests lol.
I forgot to mention the logs below were taken on the same day same conditions.
Could it be your HPFP?
Was that pump pressure or rail pressure?
I've seen lower pump pressure than that without misfires and the car held AFR as well.
I ran the gamut of E blends tuned and untuned and the car never behaved like yours.
I did run out of fuel twice this winter but due to bitter cold and me being a little overzealous with the corn :)
Rail pressure, LP was over 100PSI both tunes. I don't believe that the car was actually running out of fuel. More like flooding itself. I read an article on how the different fuels, like propane, butane and ethanol mess with the O2 readings. For example. The car is reading 10.8 AFR, when in fact its more like 10 already. Tuners have to account for this when tuning for E85 or Methanol. The AFR reading in the car is calling for more fuel more fuel. And eventually it either runs out of gas or in my case misfires due to too much fuel. If you look at the AFR readings on the car during the runs you can actually see when the misfire occurs and one bank will go rich. Down 0.5 lower then the other side. The car never actually leans out. The car is flooding itself (kinda like an old school carb lol).
Below is some notes that I found on the different afr values for E85 for instance. Propane and Butane also effect the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio.
http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/15235-the-stoichiometric-air-fuel-ratio/ (http://www.brighthubengineering.com/machine-design/15235-the-stoichiometric-air-fuel-ratio/)
E85 has a stoichiometric fuel mixture of roughly 9.78-9.8:1 in E85's purest form (Class 1 85% Ethanol summer blend). As the fuel's Ethanol content goes up the stoich range goes down. For instance, 100% Ethanol's stoich is about 9.0:1.
E85 will maintain max brake torque much richer than stoich than gasoline will. But, because of it's excellent detonation threshold(due to lower combustion temps, lower peak cylinder pressures..etc), it can be run much closer to stoich than gasoline safer. E85 reaches max thermal efficiency at about 13% richer than stoich, whereas gasoline is about 16% richer than stoich(with pump gas being even richer). But again, E85 can maintain Max Brake Torque well into the 30% richer than stoich range, unlike gasoline which is limited to about 18% rich of stoich. DISCLAIMER: Just because E85 itself will still make power at super rich AFRs, doesn't mean it's a good idea or even recommened. A whole host of issues come with running super rich AFRs, that you need to be aware of, but i will cover later.
Therefore Max Rich Torque of E85 is 7.1:1- 8.5:1
"With that being said, here is what i would consider a very safe and conservative fuel tune on E85. *AFR's listed in bold are for widebands o2s that are calibrated for gasoline, AFR's in ( ) are actual E85 AFR:
Part Throttle lean (max eco) AFR of 16.5:1(11.0:1) 12.4% leaner than STOICH
Part Throttle rich AFR of 14.7:1(9.8:1)
Spool up... AFR of 13.5:1(9.00:1)
WOT... AFR of 12.1:1(8.06:1) 17.7% richer than STOICH
*If you're using a wideband that is calibrated for gasoline(14.7:1) and cannot change the calibration of the wideband, take your gasoline AFR and divide it by 1.5 to get actual e85 AFR or use the wideband in lambda mode. 1 lambda is 9.8:1
Here are some common AFR conversions(Gas AFR on left, e85 on right):
18.0:1=12.000
17.5:1=11.666
17.0:1=11.333
16.5:1=11.000
16.0:1=10.666
15.5:1=10.333
15.0:1=10.000
14.5:1=9.666
14.0:1=9.333
13.5:1=9.000
13.0:1=8.666
12.5:1=8.333
12.0:1=8.000
11.5:1=7.666
11.0:1=7.333"
ajpturbo, I get what you are saying. However to prove this I will need to do the testing again. Based on all the reading it is the only logical solution. If I am correct then the non Ethanol fuel will alleviate some of this. With the increased other lighter fuels + the E10 + the fact I had the same issue last spring + the logs. I have pretty much eliminated everything else. (oh and by the way you were right to begin with lol).
I am not sure that I want to put the car through that again. I will be doing some tests with no Ethanol.
Sho boat you should learn to view your AFR in lambda then you don't have to worry about stoic points for different fuels. Much simpler. Most tuners look at lambda.
And I thought you said it didn't act like this last spring? Well My vote is still all tune...
But you are right. AFR reading will be skewed when you are mixing fuels. O2 sensors read lambda NOT AFR. There is a scalar in your tune that tells the ECU what the AFR is for the fuel you are using. For stock it is 14.069. That I guess is what FORD is estimating the stoic point is for most pump gas
So when you log lambda and see 1 your afr is 14.069. When you are mixing fuels the stoic point will change and the ECU converts the lambda reading based on 14.069 so if your stoic point is different because of fuel then the AFR will be converted wrong...Not sure if that makes sense
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 20, 2015, 09:29:24 PM
Sho boat you should learn to view your AFR in lambda then you don't have to worry about stoic points for different fuels. Much simpler. Most tuners look at lambda.
And I thought you said it didn't act like this last spring? Well My vote is still all tune...
But you are right. AFR reading will be skewed when you are mixing fuels. O2 sensors read lambda NOT AFR. There is a scalar in your tune that tells the ECU what the AFR is for the fuel you are using. For stock it is 14.069. That I guess is what FORD is estimating the stoic point is for most pump gas
So when you log lambda and see 1 your afr is 14.069. When you are mixing fuels the stoic point will change and the ECU converts the lambda reading based on 14.069 so if your stoic point is different because of fuel then the AFR will be converted wrong...Not sure if that makes sense
It didn't act like this with my first tune from LMS. Only when I went to V7.... V8. I had some other issues with the car at that time that we believed that that was the issue. That was corrected and I still had the random misfire until later in the spring when it all of a sudden vanished. I realize what you are saying and I get that (I am agreeing with you). I can log lambda, however I believe that the result will still be the same. The car cannot change the conversion of 14.069 on its own. It has no way of knowing what the stoic point of the current fuel is? Can it?
I'm just saying if you log lambda and you know what fuel type you put in and what your mix is then you will know about what your stoic point is then when you see lambda then you will know the real AFR.
The car is making the calculation from lambda based on 14.069 unless LMS changed that, which I doubt.
With out looking it up, E15 may have a stoic point of 13.8 and E10 may be 14.3 so if you are at .80 lambda at WOT then your afr would be .80 x 13.8 OR .80 x 14.3 depending on your fuel but the displayed AFR when you log would be .80 x 14.069 so you see how there could be a discrepancy in actual AFR. THat's why tuners prefer to view lambda because no matter the fuel if you get the lambda readings you want then you are good and no need to convert.
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears. I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).
ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.
Wow that's lean.....Is that with the stock tune? I have noticed the stock tune does run lean until deep into a pull, I guess that's by design and to help with economy.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 20, 2015, 11:37:45 PM
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears. I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).
ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.
There are 2 sensors , one is pump, one is rail.
Max pressure at the pump is 2150 ish, but I see over 2700 max actual on the rail.
Do you have Torque?
I built a gauge with commanded pump pressure, actual rail pressure, and Lambda all in one, it makes it easy to monitor when you are driving.
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 20, 2015, 11:48:09 PM
Wow that's lean.....Is that with the stock tune? I have noticed the stock tune does run lean until deep into a pull, I guess that's by design and to help with economy.
No it was the 91 Tune. Here is the screenshot of the log.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 20, 2015, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 20, 2015, 11:37:45 PM
So a little more experimentation and more data logging joy ;). However early results are promising, with the 91 V8 tune and 91 sans Ethanol Shell Vpower no hesitation/misfire. Felt nice and smooth. I did still have 10L of Esso 93 in it, I couldn't wait for tomorrow to run the tank right down. I didn't get to take it for a good thrashing but I did get through the first 3 gears. I can tell you there was a fair bit more KR though lol. (Duh 91 octane). Rail pressure didn't drop below 1800 psi below is the chart. Tomorrow ambient won't go above 10C, perfect conditions for some more testing. So either this station has it's summer gas already. Or the above conclusions could be correct. I also logged stock tune and FRP was higher than the commanded value for most the WOT pull. (just interesting).
ajp I did log this time with lambda instead of AFR and it was 1 during the whole wot pull.
There are 2 sensors , one is pump, one is rail.
Max pressure at the pump is 2150 ish, but I see over 2700 max actual on the rail.
Do you have Torque?
I built a gauge with commanded pump pressure, actual rail pressure, and Lambda all in one, it makes it easy to monitor when you are driving.
I do have Torque. It how I usually keep an eye on things. I usually data log with Forscan though. Do you have the PID for the 2 Pump and rail?
If you have the Ford extended pids you should have them.
I need to update this thread as I have done some tweaking.
Here's the first attempt with the download link on page 3.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html)
The inlaid needles are handy for watching actual follow commanded, if that makes any sense.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 21, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
I need to update this thread as I have done some tweaking.
Here's the first attempt with the download link on page 3.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html)
The inlaid needles are handy for watching actual follow commanded, if that makes any sense.
Thanks!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So driving around today I can confirm that the car runs much better on the 91 no Ethanol. I don't pretend to fully understand what is going on but the Car + Tune + 94 winter gas with Ethanol does not run right when the Temp is on the cooler side. Today it's 8C.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So no misfires, KR nil to none?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/21/2f9997eeaa032be6c9ae9b4ed132bcde.jpg)
No misfires at all, KR is kinda brutal though. LOR is down to -0.94. Funny the car still feels stronger even though is pulling timing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 21, 2015, 12:31:27 PM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/21/2f9997eeaa032be6c9ae9b4ed132bcde.jpg)
What app are you using and how does it integrate with the car? Sorry if this has already been answered.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on April 21, 2015, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 21, 2015, 12:31:27 PM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/21/2f9997eeaa032be6c9ae9b4ed132bcde.jpg)
What app are you using and how does it integrate with the car? Sorry if this has already been answered.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=3141.0
Rich
^^^ you beat me to it :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
;D;D
Rich
A typical summer-grade gasoline is composed of fluid catalytic cracker gasoline, 40%; straight-run gasoline (directly from crude oil distillation), 25%; alkylate, 15%; reformate, 18%; and butane, 2%. Winter-grade gasoline usually contains more butane, which has an octane rating slightly below premium gasoline (91-93 octane). While butane is an economic component of gasoline, the high volatility of butane limits the amount of butane that can be used in summer-grade gasoline.
Just a FYI for those of you with issues like mine and higher KR than normal in winter.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So now that I have a few days on the 91 no Ethanol with the 91 Tune V8. I can say that the car runs a lot better. It even idles smoother, the only real issue that it is pulling more timing than I would have expected. With the above statement I guess it also applies to non ethanol blends. Today it's only 4C (39F) so it's chilly. Running the 91 V8 Tune on 94 Petro (with 10% E) the car ran like a bag of crap once the temp dropped below 10C (50F). Still winter blends I guess, I have gone over the logs from last year. Track runs in May of last year Temp at the time was only 8C and the car ran really strong. I got one of my best runs at 12.737. FRP was a solid 2200 psi the whole run (this was on 10% E). I wonder how different must the winter gas it to cause this difference in the car and tune. LMS has sent me a V7 with the cold weather tweak. I will be trying this over the weekend with some 10% Ethanol 94. More to come.
Maybe it will do better once the temps get above 10C. Can't store the tunes locally any more?
Winter blend is horrible for KR...have you looked into what time of year you get summer fuel back. May 1st is the deadline in the States for stations to have it in their pumps.
Rich
Yes the tunes are stored locally.
I believe that May 1st is also the deadline for Canada.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Loaded up V7 CW 91 Tune. It was time for a fill up so I went with 94 with 10% Corn. Initial results are interesting. I was actually surprised, KR is reasonable (we still have winter gas up here) And its cold, only 4C tonight. I couldn't feel any hesitation or misfires at all. I will do some data logging and confirm. The car pulled really strong. So strong that it roasted the tires right through first gear and part way through second. (the cold and summer tires are partly to blame for that) but it still felt really cool.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 24, 2015, 09:34:32 PM
Loaded up V7 CW 91 Tune. It was time for a fill up so I went with 94 with 10% Corn. Initial results are interesting. I was actually surprised, KR is reasonable (we still have winter gas up here) And its cold, only 4C tonight. I couldn't feel any hesitation or misfires at all. I will do some data logging and confirm. The car pulled really strong. So strong that it roasted the tires right through first gear and part way through second. (the cold and summer tires are partly to blame for that) but it still felt really cool.
The corn is not hurting your KR.
On a DI car, I'd choose s*** gas with corn over straight s*** gas.
^^ I agree unless it's old mouldy corn ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
s*** gas with corn?....I had qdoba tonight.....it will be moldy corn tomorrow
You might want to see a doctor then, lol....
Ok so a bit more driving and testing. I was sure it was gone at first. Not so...... So from a standstill the car pulls great all the way through to the end of 4th. From a roll at 30 mph to WOT down to 2nd gear no problem pulls great again well into 4th gear. Now here is the kicker, at 55 mph and WOT same issue as before. Hesitation and misfires. WFT?? FRP drops to below 800PSI. On the other runs it holds well above 1500. If was a mechanical issue for example pump you would think it would do it all the time, not just from a 55 mph roll. I have sent the latest logs to LMS for their thoughts.
See below for the charts, first is 30 mph 2nd is 55 mph.
Is that pump or rail pressure?
So basically under 1k most of third?
It's rail pressure and yup.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are you logging boost level when it is sputtering and missing? It sounds like maybe you are just boosting really high momentarily then fuel pressure drops causing sputtering, missing, KR.
Don't ask me why but I can get boost where I want it and think I'm making good progress with my tune then out of nowhere boost will be lower and or higher in places than I had it...It has more to do with the commanded torque I think....The boost is an arbitrary thing, the car is attempting to give you the torque you are commanding and the boost is what it is. It's weird and I'm still learning it but my point is that boost spikes can happen inadvertently and when fuel pressure is low the door is open for sporadic behavior.
I wish you could log in livelink gen 2. I'd send you the config file with what I log and I'd love to take a look at some of your WOT pulls.
Did you say that it happens right after you floor it at a downshift for wot? Boost could be spiking pretty good there....I've had high boost tip ins with multiple tunes including tunes that I paid for.
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 25, 2015, 01:02:54 AM
Are you logging boost level when it is sputtering and missing? It sounds like maybe you are just boosting really high momentarily then fuel pressure drops causing sputtering, missing, KR.
Don't ask me why but I can get boost where I want it and think I'm making good progress with my tune then out of nowhere boost will be lower and or higher in places than I had it...It has more to do with the commanded torque I think....The boost is an arbitrary thing, the car is attempting to give you the torque you are commanding and the boost is what it is. It's weird and I'm still learning it but my point is that boost spikes can happen inadvertently and when fuel pressure is low the door is open for sporadic behavior.
I wish you could log in livelink gen 2. I'd send you the config file with what I log and I'd love to take a look at some of your WOT pulls.
Did you say that it happens right after you floor it at a downshift for wot? Boost could be spiking pretty good there....I've had high boost tip ins with multiple tunes including tunes that I paid for.
Unfortunately I don't have live link, but I can send you the logs in Excel format. It will give you the idea. It takes a bit after the downshift, maybe a second or two. It's really weird. Send me a pm with your email address and I can send you the logs tomorrow.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When you did the 50mph roll with the low fuel pressure it looks like the car didn't down shift....Were your RPM's low? It's hard for the hpfp to make pressure when RPM's are lower, that's when mine suffers as well.....I've ran well over 20 psi and rail pressure stayed over 1500 as long as I was over 4500 RPM's
On the 50 I was at about 2k rpm when I hit it. On the first of 30 I was lower at 1500rpm with no issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 01:11:11 AM
On the 50 I was at about 2k rpm when I hit it. On the first of 30 I was lower at 1500rpm with no issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
But does the car downshift when you hit it?
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 12:57:47 AM
It's rail pressure and yup.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn...
Can you plot AFR on those graphs?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 01:13:50 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 12:57:47 AM
It's rail pressure and yup.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn...
Can you plot AFR on those graphs?
Sure can here you go.
and AJP yes it does.
That graphing sucks!
LOL!
You really need an x4, even if its just for logging...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 01:24:25 AM
That graphing sucks!
LOL!
You really need an x4, even if its just for logging...
Yes I know lol are these any better?
Red commanded, blue actual?
Time to check the identified 55mph issue against V8 and stock? Also keep an eye out for code p0087 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0087).
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 02:06:37 AM
Red commanded, blue actual?
bank 1 and 2
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOdded on April 25, 2015, 07:11:54 AM
Time to check the identified 55mph issue against V8 and stock? Also keep an eye out for code p0087 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0087).
what is that??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Manu, are you thinking along the lines of what happened with BigMac?
Rich
Exactly right, Rich, though I don't have a way to justify it yet. If FRP is being commanded, why is it not being delivered? Is it a logic problem, a voltage problem, or a mechanical problem? Puzzling.
Quote from: SHOdded on April 25, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
Exactly right, Rich, though I don't have a way to justify it yet. If FRP is being commanded, why is it not being delivered? Is it as logic problem, a voltage problem, or a mechanical problem? Puzzling.
I guess I can try against stock again and go from there. I was assuming it was tune + 94 winter gas.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOdded on April 25, 2015, 08:47:34 AM
Exactly right, Rich, though I don't have a way to justify it yet. If FRP is being commanded, why is it not being delivered? Is it a logic problem, a voltage problem, or a mechanical problem? Puzzling.
What is the known 55 mph issue?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Whole series on GDI fuel system/componentry:
http://youtu.be/XK7l37LLda8 (http://youtu.be/XK7l37LLda8)
Think Manu was referencing your post about it being at 55 mph.
BigMac had a fuel delivery issue stemming from the tank pump that would sporadically pop up.
Rich
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 08:54:40 AM
What is the known 55 mph issue?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No known issue, I was referring to the conditions under which you are seeing the problems in your latest test :)
Ok a quick (chappy lol) chart of the HP VS the LP fuel delivery on the failed run. To me the LP side looks ok, it drops slightly to 98 PSI from the commanded 102 PSI and on the successful (no hesitation roll from 30 mph) the same LPF is pretty solid dropping slightly to 98 also.
I going to try a stock run to see if the FRP drops from a 55mph roll.
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 09:03:12 AM
Think Manu was referencing your post about it being at 55 mph.
BigMac had a fuel delivery issue stemming from the tank pump that would sporadically pop up.
Rich
Yea... Had a comm code about fuel delivery module communication with PCM and DTC with CEL for low fuel rail pressure... On the way to the dealer She died.... The low pressure fuel pump had failed and replacement didn't fix it... They died at a stoplight in the test drive... So the fuel control module was replaced and no problems since. BTW... The car actually runs better than ever... I believe function on these components can decline significantly before setting a DTC. Mine happened at initial startup and for a while the car went into limp mode. The problem I had was never a high speed (above 30 mph) thing.
So consider the FCM as well as the fuel pumps... And communication.
Curious if your throttle plate is closing when you lose fuel pressure? I believe you can log it and it would be interesting to see what it is doing while you have it "floored".
Quote from: ecoboostsho on April 25, 2015, 09:21:01 AM
Curious if your throttle plate is closing when you lose fuel pressure? I believe you can log it and it would be interesting to see what it is doing while you have it "floored".
sometimes yes it closes briefly then it's wide open. Others it stays wide open during the issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Did you ever check for any exhaust leaks,an exhaust leak on the left bank will cause lean and rich conditions beyond what the PCM can control with fueling,the exhaust leak will make the engine run lean above idle speed and run rich at an idle on that bank.Z
Quote from: ZSHO on April 25, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
Did you ever check for any exhaust leaks,an exhaust leak on the left bank will cause lean and rich conditions beyond what the PCM can control with fueling,the exhaust leak will make the engine run lean above idle speed and run rich at an idle on that bank.Z
Yes I did, actually thats how I found out that the PTU was leaking. It's fine at idle. Bank 1 and 2 are perfectly in sync. I just came back from a data run on the stock tune and no issues at all. I will post the logs in a few min.
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 08:24:17 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 02:06:37 AM
Red commanded, blue actual?
bank 1 and 2
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Is it commanding 10.4 AFR?
I wish shipping to Canada wasn't stupid, I won't need my x4 for a few months
Ok this time we have the actual screen shots from Forscan, hopefully a bit easier to read. The interesting thing to look at is the throttle plate position in the stock and tuned runs. Then the 30 mph WOT run. I am a little confused on why from the 50 mph roll it falls flat on it's face. To me this looks like a tuning issue. Any thoughts? Also the 2nd 50MPH run it recovered??
FoMo Sorry I did not have the commanded AFR on the last set of runs. But when I did in the past it was really close to the commanded value.
With SCT, I can turn 6 of the available data streams into gauges then I can pull the curser across time/rpm and see what is happening at every data point, if that makes any sense.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 11:10:43 AM
With SCT, I can turn 6 of the available data streams into gauges then I can pull the curser across time/rpm and see what is happening at every data point, if that makes any sense.
I can do something similar in Forscan, there is a button at the bottom of the screen that will show me the values in sequence. No gauges though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 11:15:45 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 11:10:43 AM
With SCT, I can turn 6 of the available data streams into gauges then I can pull the curser across time/rpm and see what is happening at every data point, if that makes any sense.
I can do something similar in Forscan, there is a button at the bottom of the screen that will show me the values in sequence. No gauges though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Was your LPFP replaced on the recall?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 11:15:45 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 11:10:43 AM
With SCT, I can turn 6 of the available data streams into gauges then I can pull the curser across time/rpm and see what is happening at every data point, if that makes any sense.
I can do something similar in Forscan, there is a button at the bottom of the screen that will show me the values in sequence. No gauges though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Was your LPFP replaced on the recall?
Yes it was replaced.
Have you logged it to make sure it isn't dropping out?
Yes the logs also show LP side of the fuel system on the other page. It doesn't look to me like its dropping out much.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From the graphs, I'm only seeing the problem when you STAY on the throttle. On the 55mph 2nd run w/ V7 is where the problem manifested itself.
Quote from: SHOdded on April 25, 2015, 12:55:51 PM
From the graphs, I'm only seeing the problem when you STAY on the throttle. On the 55mph 2nd run w/ V7 is where the problem manifested itself.
Agreed, however the stock tune modulates the throttle plate even though it's at WOT on the AP sensor. The tune file send the command to the TP and its wide open through the whole pull. This is the only difference I can see from the logs. And the drop in HPFP.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 01:26:55 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 25, 2015, 12:55:51 PM
From the graphs, I'm only seeing the problem when you STAY on the throttle. On the 55mph 2nd run w/ V7 is where the problem manifested itself.
Agreed, however the stock tune modulates the throttle plate even though it's at WOT on the AP sensor. The tune file send the command to the TP and its wide open through the whole pull. This is the only difference I can see from the logs. And the drop in HPFP.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agree x3^^^
Bettin' on the fuel control module... If the LPFP is working properly...
TSB - 13s04-s4 Fuel delivery module?
Rich
Are you suspecting there is a problem with fuel delivery because the pressure dropping?
I am being drawn back to the winter fuel (again). I have to do some more research on its effects on AFR and lambda.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 03:39:25 PM
I am being drawn back to the winter fuel (again). I have to do some more research on its effects on AFR and lambda.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What do u mean?
The O2's will take care of afr and lambda via stft ....and u will never maintain commanded fuel pressure of 2000 or so when at wot with a 3 bar tune...u are pushing the fuel system to the max more specifically the high pressure pump...I think I said this before but I'm commanding 2200 and I'm lucky to see 1000 ..when I'm at 18 psi below 3000 rpm I'm lower than 1000 psi rail pressure
Quote from: ajpturbo on April 25, 2015, 03:47:29 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 25, 2015, 03:39:25 PM
I am being drawn back to the winter fuel (again). I have to do some more research on its effects on AFR and lambda.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What do u mean?
The O2's will take care of afr and lambda via stft ....and u will never maintain commanded fuel pressure of 2000 or so when at wot with a 3 bar tune...u are pushing the fuel system to the max more specifically the high pressure pump...I think I said this before but I'm commanding 2200 and I'm lucky to see 1000 ..when I'm at 18 psi below 3000 rpm I'm lower than 1000 psi rail pressure
Even with meth this is still true, however lamba's are kept in check but the additional fuel is using 100% meth that is.
I see 2100 at WOT all the time. Actually closer to 2200 most the time. Hmmm?
Rich
"Lambda is lambda regardless of the fuel. If you're targeting and tuning to a lambda reading, changing fuel to something like MS109 will require more fuel to reach the same lambda. . So you should see an increase in injector duty cycle." I am guessing this also applies to "winter gas"
A good read here.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244066#/enter
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 03:55:00 PM
I see 2100 at WOT all the time. Actually closer to 2200 most the time. Hmmm?
Rich
Then you have room for more boost...that doesn't surprise me as most people with 3 bar tunes are only running 14-16 psi.....that can be easily done with the stock map sensor...and spare me the 14.7 psi limit...the 5v limit of the stock sensor actually may extrapolate closer to 17 psi and the stft would handle boost spikes even tho the sensor couldn't read anything higher....basically I don't know that the 2 bar is actually 2 bar
And rich if u had the tranny locked to avoid a downshift at wot and u could hold 2000rpm ur fuel pressure would plummet when boost rises
So do I. But I bet you your car is not programmed like apj's as your car will not allow you to lug a gear below 3000 and build substantial boost. I imagine it down shifts instead, which keeps the hpfp spinning fast enough to supply the pressure needed.
Plus those lme boys don't like adding boost above 15psi so I'm doubt your tune is asking for that much fuel below 3k in anything past 2nd gear.
I may be 100% wrong as I have never even seen your car, so my assumptions could be way off.
Ajp beat me to it....
Yup, room for more boost and it does kick down and tear the pavement up. Pretty happy with it right now.
Rich
Here are a few logs from runs at the track last year. The first was a chilly night at 50F (Screen shot) the second was a lot warmer chart of HP side of the fuel system VS speed. As you can see it will hold over 2K PSI during the whole run down the quarter. At least it did. I know that it had similar issues last spring, I wish I still had the logs to compare when I had the issue to see if it was doing the exact same thing.
Hence my thoughts on the fuel being the culprit here. I am running out of ideas. And am getting very frustrated. I guess the only way to rule out the fuel is to get some summer fuel. Any chance one of you boys down in the south can ship me a few gallons of your stuff? ;) I am still waiting on the race gas store to open for the season.
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 04:18:18 PM
Yup, room for more boost and it does kick down and tear the pavement up. Pretty happy with it right now.
Rich
Thanks Rich I feel much better now lol.....
Sorry man...you'll be back there soon I bet.
How's the LOR gauge been reading with the fuel
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 04:36:16 PM
Sorry man...you'll be back there soon I bet.
How's the LOR gauge been reading with the fuel
Rich
No worries ;) the LOR gauge works perfectly. It's at -1 when I had the 91 no corn it was reading -0.94 with the 91 tune.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I actually have had to misfire events in last 12 days.
1st one the wife just filled up at same station we've been using for last 8 months. 2 miles down the road the car starts to stutter and she pulls over and pulled a misfire cylinder 5. Yes, she stopped and used torque app to pull the codes prior to calling me...she crawled home and I checked everything. Tuning device only pulled generic misfire code. Cleared it and no sign of it.
I put in just 93(10%/e) and no added corn next fill up...still fine
Next fill up I add 1 gallon corn...down from 1.25 gallons of corn to the 13 gallons of 93. It happens again a few miles down the road when stopped. Clear codes and it's gone...weird
Car feels great, pulling great #'s across the board....actually better #'s than usual?
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 04:45:18 PM
I actually have had to misfire events in last 12 days.
1st one the wife just filled up at same station we've been using for last 8 months. 2 miles down the road the car starts to stutter and she pulls over and pulled a misfire cylinder 5. Yes, she stopped and used torque app to pull the codes prior to calling me...she crawled home and I checked everything. Tuning device only pulled generic misfire code. Cleared it and no sign of it.
I put in just 93(10%/e) and no added corn next fill up...still fine
Next fill up I add 1 gallon corn...down from 1.25 gallons of corn to the 13 gallons of 93. It happens again a few miles down the road when stopped. Clear codes and it's gone...weird
Car feels great, pulling great #'s across the board....actually better #'s than usual?
Rich
Weird, mine on the other hand has yet to throw a code at me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 03:55:00 PM
I see 2100 at WOT all the time. Actually closer to 2200 most the time. Hmmm?
Rich
Do you have a log?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 25, 2015, 06:12:52 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on April 25, 2015, 03:55:00 PM
I see 2100 at WOT all the time. Actually closer to 2200 most the time. Hmmm?
Rich
Do you have a log?
Yes...only torque...I'll try tomorrow...just left for dinner
Rich
Alrighty now, beginning to see a trend. I have posted a few interesting logs below. All the screen caps are from 0 and are at WOT. The first is stock tune, second is from a run last year at the track 93 V8 tune and lasty is today with the 91V7 CW. upon further examination the falling high side fuel pressure stands out. However when I compared the throttle plate position across the three I see the ECU modulating the plate in the first 2 but not the third. Even the track run has this modulation. The one from today it sticks wide open during the pull. The same goes for the WOT roll pulls (only after tuning to something other than stock). Same deal. The throttle plate sticks wide open. Is this a learned behaviour? Does the ECU adapt over time? Any thoughts would be great.
The one you are looking for is TP1 %
Shoboat I don't think it's so much of a learned thing as much as actual torque vs commanded torque...this is what I'm focusing on in my tuning at the moment...the car will use the throttle plate to control torque output...it's really difficult to match the commanded torque tables with actual torque...hard for me to explain since I don't fully understand it...the tune maybe commanding more torque than what another system in the car wants so the throttle will close....then open and or fluctuate
There are switches in the tune to shut that off but then if u exceed other limits the throttle can still modulate..it's frustrating...there are torque limits for the axles, trans, inputshaft...and they all need to jive.
I think I get my tune where I want it and the throttle will stay open then later on I log again and my throttle is doing weird stuff. I can't feel anything but it should be open...it's the joys of drive by wire....if I lower boost I can keep the throttle open...when it closes its usually because the ecu doesn't like something or is protecting something.....torque tables could need tuning..torque limits could need tuning...and for all I know fuel pressure dips and knock activity could cause throttle activity to control torque
Wow that sounds very confusing lol. So the only thing I know for certain right now that my HPF side should not be tanking the way it is (again only when tuned). My god this is infuriating. What I would do for a set of jets, a carb and an old school Vacuum advance.....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How low does the rail pressure get and at what boost level and rpm?
It varies, the lowest I have seen it is 750psi and that's at 14.5 psi at 4000 rpm.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok that's what I was looking for...that' is on the low side...should be no problem to pull well over 1000psi at that boost and rpm ....
Interesting info for those of you trying out "race gas" turns out this fellow also had an issue with his car pulling more fuel in winter due to "winter gas". And this was Arizona winter gas lol. I would love to find out what the value is of our winter gas up here. It's no wonder it's pulling so much more fuel to get to 0.81 Lambda at wot. Or 10.8 Afr. If I understand what he is talking about lol.
kmhamel
Second gear
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Healy, Alaska
Posts: 126
I ran across this awhile back, maybe it can be of some use:
Race Gas Stoich Rating Tuning Considerations
Well I have seen questions from time to time about adding race gas without tuning which can be a very expensive experiment. I am going to explain how stoich effects AFR. Hopefully in simple format.
I am not going to get into MAF transfer functions or other tuning functions.This is just about fuel.
First lets define a few terms:
AFR: Air Fuel Ratio
Stoich Rating: In simple terms is the AFR to have chemically complete combustion that is neither rich or lean. For Example most pump gasoline is about 14.64 to 1. Which means 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel.
Lambda: Is a term that is utilized when tuning. In basic terms think of it as an adjustment to your stoich rating when tuning AFR. For example with pump gas tuning .80 lambda, 14.7 x .80 = 11.76 AFR target.
Lets assume your car blower car has a nice tune that gives a perfect 11.8 AFR under WOT with pump gas.
So now it is race day. We add some timing to our tune, drain the fuel tank, and fill up with some high octane unleaded VP109.
We go for a blast down the 1/4 mile while datalogging and see the A/F is reading 12.8 then make a quick trip to the bathroom only to find out they are out of toilet paper -lol.
There are a few factors here to consider.
The stoich rating of VP109 is 13.41.
Most wideband A/F modules are calibrated to 14.7 pump gas stoich.
So this is the formula to determine the true A/F for the run.
AFR/Wideband Stoich x Race Gas Stoich
12.8/14.7*13.41= 11.7 AFR on Race Gas
So you may think 11.7 sounds safe but we must remember the VP109 stoich is 13.41. So 11.7 AFR = .87 lambda. For the most part a safe lambda value is .80 to .82 for a forced induction mustang. I prefer .80
So we take VP109 stoich of 13.41 x .80 lambda = 10.73 AFR
This is the AFR (10.73) I am tuning for.
Keep in mind this is not what will display on your wide band as it is programmed to 14.7 stoich. You must convert the AFR.
AFR/Race Gas Stoich*Wide Band Stoich
10.73/13.41*14.7 = 11.76 AFR is what I want to see on my wideband when running VP109.
Just to reiterate 11.7 on the AFR display with VP 109 is really a 10.7 AFR.
Ok so hopefully you are not totally confused.
There is a simple solution to all of this madness. The SCT Advantage software has a Scalar for Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio. You simply enter the correct value for the fuel you are using and all lambda fuel calculations will be based on this value. Then just do the first formula conversion to determine what you should be reading on the AFR display. Some AFR modules may be able to be programed to the correct stoich.
Or leave the stoich in the tune and wideband at 14.64 and calcualte what AFR you need to read on the wideband for the fuel that is used. (This is how I did it in the past, but I find it easier to change the stoich scalar)
This is why you have to exercise caution when mixing race gas and pump gas as you do not know the true stoich of the mixture. The leaded race fuels have a stoich that is closest to pump gas. I always drain my tank before putting in the race gas. When I mixed fuels in the past I didn't notice a drastic change in AFR, but when I have 100% unleaded race gas it really leans out with a 14.64 stoich scalar in the tune.
The other caution is the winter (oxgenated) gas we get in Arizona. I noticed the car leaned out in the winter when it was tuned on the better summer blend. A 14.1 stoich scalar works for the AZ winter gas if your initial tune was based on the summer blend.
Race Gas Stoich Ratings
Sunoco MO2X UL – 14.5
Sunoco 260 GTX – 14.4
Sunoco 260 GT – 13.9
Sunoco 260 GT Plus – 13.7
Sunoco Standard – 14.8
Sunoco Supreme – 14.9
Sunoco MO2X – 14.5
Sunoco HCR Plus – 14.8
Sunoco Maximal – 15.0
Sunoco MaxNOS – 14.9
Turbo Blue Unleaded (100 octane) -13.9
Turbo Blue Unleaded Plus (104 octane) - 13.7
Turbo Blue 110 - 14.7
Turbo Blue Advantage - 14.9
Turbo Blue Extreme - 15.0
VP Street Blaze 100 - 14.16
VP C10 -14.53
VP C16 - 14.77
VP 110 - 15.09
VP MS109 - 13.41
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It doesn't matter what fuel you are using, the ecm is going for a complete burn of 1.
It will add or subtract fuel as necessary to get to 1.
I assure you the fuel you are running isn't causing this issue unless they put E-85 in the wrong tank.
That being said, I've had pretty high percentages of the corn and not seen FRP that low across third.
You would know because your trims would move very high to compensate for the much higher fuel demand.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on April 26, 2015, 08:46:21 PM
It doesn't matter what fuel you are using, the ecm is going for a complete burn of 1.
It will add or subtract fuel as necessary to get to 1.
I assure you the fuel you are running isn't causing this issue unless they put E-85 in the wrong tank.
That being said, I've had pretty high percentages of the corn and not seen FRP that low across third.
You would know because your trims would move very high to compensate for the much higher fuel demand.
Wouldn't it also be dependant on the tune also? I am still trying to wrap my head around the whole lambda vs AFR. That said, I am still confused as to the reoccurrence of the same symptoms as last spring. Is there any possibility of the tune in combination with E10 winter gas plus the cold temp be the cause. (It no longer misfired when temps rose above 10C) It might be a stretch but I am getting a feeling of déjà vu. Hence why I am asking and posting quotes.
Also I have been through everything except the HP fuel pump and controller. It does not exhibit anything when the stock tune is loaded. No matter how hard I try.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok so another weird and wacky update. With all of the suggestions and info from my web searches, I decided to do a few things. #1 Installed the 3 bar sensor and 91 V8 tune. I then reset the communication codes in the PCM and reset the adaptive learning through Forscan. To ensure that I had actually reset everything possible I then followed these instructions.
https://youtu.be/hZAsoqmqhdM
And followed his instructions regarding the learning process. Drove the car for about 2 days without doing any crazy WOT blasts and 55 mph pulls.
After FoMo's and ajp comments I decided to start logging fuel trims and dropped a few other PIDs that were unnecessary for this purpose. As I am trying to limit the total PIds that I am monitoring to keep the connection as quick as possible. So it's 8C today here (it's finally going to warm up later this week lol). Drove the car today a little more aggressively. A few WOT pulls from 0, a few WOT downshifts into second and then finally a few WOT pulls down into 3rd to 4th. It's gone, I mean completely gone. I am still running the same fuel. I can't be happier however I am skeptical that it's truly gone lol. I will continue to be cautious over the next few days just to be safe and datalog any WOT blasts. HPFP no longer drops below 1500 PSI. However I know see the TP1 sensor modulating on a hard WOT downshift. It's not stuck at wide open. I will post a few screenshots of the data logs later showing the HPFP and the trims.
Any ideas on the results? Could the car actually needed to adapt to the fuel or conditions was there something stuck in the KAM that was contributing? This is over my head, any insight would be great.
And the logs!
So after another frigid day it has not come back, I just realized this topic got to 15 pages. I want to thank you guys for sending me ideas and responding to my posts and questions so quickly. If it was the last set of things that I did that fixed it I have no idea for sure. But I know that some of you SHOdded for one suggested something to do with logic of the fuel control module. And that got me thinking on how to force a reset. I looked through my post from last year. I may have inadvertently done this exact thing. I never did find out what fixed it last year either.
Good news!!!
Rich
Still all good, ShoBoat? I am not hoping for more frigid weather for you :D , but if it does give you the opportunity, do the reset and test with 93 version of V8 maybe?
Quote from: SHOdded on April 30, 2015, 07:48:05 AM
Still all good, ShoBoat? I am not hoping for more frigid weather for you :D , but if it does give you the opportunity, do the reset and test with 93 version of V8 maybe?
All good, I did another fill up at the busiest gas station in the area with 94. Did the reset procedure and installed the 93v8 tune. All is good so far! No pressure drop or misfires or hesitation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Will be good to know info for anyone else looking for a solution to these problems :thumb: "Try the reset!"
Take a look at this sae study on gtdi/tgdi. Wonder if you could be experiencing this.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-speed-pre-ignition-in-the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/ (http://www.stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-speed-pre-ignition-in-the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/)
http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0758/ (http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0758/)
Quote from: panther427 on April 30, 2015, 10:21:06 AM
Take a look at this sae study on gtdi/tgdi. Wonder if you could be experiencing this.
http://www.stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-speed-pre-ignition-in-the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/ (http://www.stratifiedauto.com/blog/low-speed-pre-ignition-in-the-mazdaspeed-disi-and-ford-ecoboost-motors/)
http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0758/ (http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0758/)
Interesting read, could be in regards to the KR I was seeing. But I am pretty sure that was winter gas. I am going to do the BG fuel service, I know that FMC isn't crazy about this type of service. However they have been doing it on turbo cars forever. And if you think back to the carb days of old they had a similar issue of "cooking" of the valves. The fuel was not sprayed like in TPFI right on the valves. So we have come full circle. And back in those days it was a can of carb cleaner and away you went ;).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just wanted to give a final update on this issue. It has stayed gone.... I still can't 100% point to a solution, maybe several things as stated earlier. She is still pulling timing but not at the same level as before. I tried a few different gas stations. And the 93 Esso had the worst KR (Weird since it's a really busy one), with the best being a Petro Canada 94 station. WOT HP fuel stays above 1800 PSI at all times, KR on the 94 Petro doesn't see above 3.0. I just wish I knew for sure what the issue was. One more mention that all the Gas in my area at least above 91 has 10% corn.
So it seems that I have resolved my weird KR issues, and let's just say it wasn't what I expected at all. I know have 0 KR pretty much all the time. Even lugging in a high gear at 55 to 70 mph. I have seen boost levels as high as 9 psi in 6th with no KR in fact it's adding timing same as last year. Now that I have a fix I will post a how to.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Excellent! Can't wait to hear what it was.