Auxiliary fueling system is working well, running E85/91 in main tank and E85 in Aux tank.
CAR IS STRONG!!!
Torrie and I are still doing tuning revisions but I'm done for the night.
The car feels stronger than it did on nitrous previously. More tune revisions coming and possibly a trip to a very BAD air track on the 28th but we'll see.
Turbos are DONE, ready to be picked up tomorrow. I'm going to wait until the 20th when my oldest leaves for summer school at college so I can use his car if need be while he's away.
I'm seriously considering a FMIC or water to air IC when I get the turbos done. Something has to be done about IAT's!
Any hp/tq numbers yet? Is the power delivery smoother AND stronger? ;D
Quote from: SHOdded on June 11, 2013, 06:37:32 AM
Any hp/tq numbers yet? Is the power delivery smoother AND stronger? ;D
No not yet. We're just doing tuning revisions right now. I plan to get a dyno before I take it to get the new turbo installed and then right after so I can show what the turbo upgrade does for horsepower.
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
Nice! That's one bad machine ya got there!!!
Quote from: kstylez on June 11, 2013, 09:57:40 AM
Nice! That's one bad machine ya got there!!!
Thanks!
Jealousy ..... ENVY.... GREEEED!!!!
Do you know where your car is???*
*in my hauler on the way to Iowa!
WOT pull to 80
Flex E85 0-80 MPH pull (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Giew9fmoJ78#ws)
Kicka$$!
Thats bad a$$
I've been experimenting with 3 gallons E85 with 91 and it's not bad at all. Seems 3rd gear really wakes up as I do get a bit of knock there on straight 91. Fun stuff. Can't wait for my air/water.
I have been running a gallon with Shell 93.
No issues so far, no change in mileage.
AFR 10.5 at WOT.
Anything else I should be monitoring?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 09, 2013, 10:06:44 PM
I have been running a gallon with Shell 93.
No issues so far, no change in mileage.
AFR 10.5 at WOT.
Anything else I should be monitoring?
I doubt that's doing much as the manual says you can run fuels with up to 10% max ethanol in them. I ran 4 gallons on 93 when I was on my stock tune. Seemed to run good. Now with my tune, I'm not running any. fyi
If you do not tune for E85, I am pretty sure it does nothing. Where E85 comes into benefit, is the advance in timing and the stock ECU wont advance enough to have the full benefits of E85
For those wanting to play with E-85...
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
Enjoy!
I didn't tune for E85 when I first ran straight 91 with 5 gallons of E85, I saw increased timing, 5+ degrees, and lower knock, about half of what I normally see with just 91. So I think there is some benefit and the computer sees it. I've since gone to a higher % of E85 but haven't logged it to see if there was any advantage.
Be carefully as ethonal will suck your FP down when you get into higher consent rations
For the last 20+ years we have had E-10 89 octane in Iowa. Recently they switched to 85 Octane base fuel, so now E-10 is 87 octane. Next step up is E-10 91 or 92 and some E-10 93 stations. Price didn't change.
Had some $2.99 last week but is up to $3.09 this week. Paid $3.35 for E-10 93 last week. Last time I bought E-85 it was around $2.50.
so with a tune, even though ford says to stay away from e85 on my 2013 sho you guy recommend mixing a few gallons with 91 octane fuel?
Running E85 on this platform is still undocumented on a wide scale as 4Dr is the only one running it. I encourage you to try it, but I say that with reserve and hopefully you log and monitor FP to ensure your not running lean in any of the higher rpm's.
What I am seeing so far with Torque Pro and the MX bluetooth adapter.
These are just some observations while driving WOT so far.
I am at 2 gallons E-85 (8.9%) which bumps my octane to 94.3
AFR commanded and measured 10.5 ish
Lambda commanded and measured 1
Fuel Rail pressure 2450-2650 PSI
Timing advance 20 degrees
Turbo boost 13.9
I think I figured out logging in torque tonight so keep your fingers crossed.
Awesome! I've always wanted to try the e85 blend for the boost in octane. I have only used race fuels and hijacked 100LL avgas mixes in my go fast cars. namely my M3, 2004 wrx, and 88 supra turbo. the NA car liked the octane but the boosted cars loved it. especially the avgas mixes as it didnt mess with fuel pressures. il try some and log when my tuner comes in.
Keep us posted. I would like to run 2-3 gallon mix as well
Ok, I've got the logging figured out, now I have to figure out how to post it up on the site. I would like to choose one site that can host whatever data I want to upload. Opinions welcome.
Google cloud?
4DR did i read that you said E85 in any form in our vehicles, with out AUX fueling will cause low FP?
I am up to 3 gallons (13.89% with my previous fillup mix) which bumps octane to 94.9
Quote from: Josephm on October 19, 2013, 12:21:10 AM
4DR did i read that you said E85 in any form in our vehicles, with out AUX fueling will cause low FP?
At the tune levels I was at mixing at 33% E85 caused me to run out of fuel. I took my 100 octane tune and tried a 70/30 mix but ran out of FP.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on October 21, 2013, 03:49:27 PM
Quote from: Josephm on October 19, 2013, 12:21:10 AM
4DR did i read that you said E85 in any form in our vehicles, with out AUX fueling will cause low FP?
At the tune levels I was at mixing at 33% E85 caused me to run out of fuel. I took my 100 octane tune and tried a 70/30 mix but ran out of FP.
Torque shows my FP at 2450-2600 but ford says max FP is 2150, at least for the 2010-12.
Any ideas?
AFR and lambda, commanded and measured is good
I see around 2100 psi max I believe, never really looked but here's a video for you :)
0 to 95 on new tires with coilovers installed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-54johAWUQ#ws)
Boost leak fixed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCLvexuoHnk#ws)
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 21, 2013, 03:37:21 PM
I am up to 3 gallons (13.89% with my previous fillup mix) which bumps octane to 94.9
Are you tuned for this?
Quote from: Josephm on October 21, 2013, 11:09:14 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 21, 2013, 03:37:21 PM
I am up to 3 gallons (13.89% with my previous fillup mix) which bumps octane to 94.9
Are you tuned for this?
No.
FYI, via Torque Pro, I have observed a torque boost. I never saw over 298 WTQ before adding E-85. Now I am seeing 305-310 with one romp showing 318. I am on day 2 of the higher mix. Something I did see today was 310 TQ in 3rd gear low rpm high boost acceleration. Kinda surprised me.
Today, Torque logged 330.7 WTQ @1635 rpm, low rpm high boost.
It quickly dropped so I don't know if Torque was being goofy or the ECM saw something it didn't like and reduced power.
If it happens again, it could be you don't have enough fuel. Can you log FRP ( after DI pump) It needs to stay above 1,000 PSI. I ran a mix of E-85 at the strip a few weeks ago. Not sure how much it helped. Had my best Non-Methanol spray 1/8 mi times ever. Of course I also have a Kenne Bell BAP to increase the LPFP volume by spinning it up to 50% faster.
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on October 22, 2013, 10:07:46 PM
If it happens again, it could be you don't have enough fuel. Can you log FRP ( after DI pump) It needs to stay above 1,000 PSI. I ran a mix of E-85 at the strip a few weeks ago. Not sure how much it helped. Had my best Non-Methanol spray 1/8 mi times ever. Of course I also have a Kenne Bell BAP to increase the LPFP volume by spinning it up to 50% faster.
I will check the torque logs,
FRP is one of the pids I'm logging.
What mix did you run?
I'm at about 14% and my LTFTs are starting to creep up.
So today I was out running some errands and "playing" a bit. I was paddle shifting in SPORT mode playing with my shift points a'la 4DR's shift point thread.
4 way stop, slow roll out and punched it...car started moving to the right (not where it was pointed) it kind of startled me as the car never behaved like this before. Traction has never been an issue...looked at my phone and torque showed 323.2 WTQ @ 3739 RPM. I'm really irritated with myself for lifting but like I said, it caught me off guard.
Conditions were 50 degrees, dry and level pavement.
I think 4DR is right, the ECU in this car is very intelligent both with the ability to save itself from ruin, but also being able to increase power if it likes what it sees. Torque NEVER showed more than the high 290's before E85. (Which from the stock dynos I've seen seems pretty accurate.
Should post a log or two up.
Quote from: Josephm on October 23, 2013, 08:06:15 PM
Should post a log or two up.
I need to add WTQ and WHP to my logging too. Derp.
Maybe this isn't the place for this... but my WIFE put E-10 87 in our G8 that is cammed, and tuned for 93... Luckily she was only driving on the interstate....
We have been married for 45 years... WHAT CAN I SAY???? G8 is going into 6 mo storage... guess I need to add some 93!!!! Wanted it near empty when it sits.
So I'm trying to attach this log file in csv format but I don't see see an attach button. I can see it in the browse box but can't get it to the message box.
Any ideas?
Lol, jeez.
I get it now, if it's in the box, it's attached.
I looked at the log... Not meaningful when your RPM never exceeds 2K... Also... I always log MPH... that way when I'm doing WOT runs I can see at what MPH and gear I'm having the worst #''s. What software version are you using for logging?
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on October 23, 2013, 09:42:49 PM
I looked at the log... Not meaningful when your RPM never exceeds 2K... Also... I always log MPH... that way when I'm doing WOT runs I can see at what MPH and gear I'm having the worst #''s. What software version are you using for logging?
LOL, gimme a break, I'm new to this!
I'm using Torque and I'm trying to figure out how to keep track of the logs.
I added WTQ, WHP, intake temps.
Changed logging to .25s instead of 1.
I will add MPH, but I don't see a gear option in Torque.
Thanks for your patience.
When I get or receive call through SYNC, it seems Torque stops monitoring so that's adding to my confusion of which log is which.
I'm gonna go for a drive and will post up the log.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 23, 2013, 09:48:04 PM
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on October 23, 2013, 09:42:49 PM
I looked at the log... Not meaningful when your RPM never exceeds 2K... Also... I always log MPH... that way when I'm doing WOT runs I can see at what MPH and gear I'm having the worst #''s. What software version are you using for logging?
LOL, gimme a break, I'm new to this!
I'm using Torque and I'm trying to figure out how to keep track of the logs.
I added WTQ, WHP, intake temps.
Changed logging to .25s instead of 1.
I will add MPH, but I don't see a gear option in Torque.
Thanks for your patience.
Sorry... wasn't trying to be harsh... I was looking at your log like I do my wot runs... Glad you are attempting to log... after you do this for a while, you will start to see patterns and come to conclusions. Lambda (both banks) FRP, MCT, TIP- (Boost), are what you look at relative to RPM and MPH. Your tuner like Torrie etc. will look at all the rest of the data they request.
As for the "gear".. that's my wording that confused you... You can tell the gear from looking at the log and seeing when RPM's drop and then go up again.. MPH also gives you an idea on the gear... But you're right... there's no gear option in any of the logging software I've worked with. My BAD!
I am no pro at logging, but if you logged a full throttle, 1st through mid way through 3rd, it would give you a way better reading than just cruising around town and not have a bunch of useless data.
It would also allow you to see if your running lean; Your not going to run lean putt'ing around town and never seeing above 3K RPM's
Thank for posting the log, i am anxious to see your full throttle logs.
This should give you lots to chew on.
I've been watching for a while, I will be happy to try to translate what was going on you might have ?s about.
Any updates on this ??
Yes. I'm not sure but it seems the ECU may have reigned in my fun. Boost and power numbers are all back to pre E-85 levels. One factor may be the temp drop or maybe Shell is switching to winter blend. While driving today, I never saw over 10psi boost. The highest I've seen on logs is 13.9. Maybe the colder, denser air is the cause? Hell, i don't know. I filled up with straight 93 today as I want to log fuel trims without the corn to see a baseline.
One point for those wanting to play....torque fuel level is very accurate if you are on level ground. It made it very easy to fill up 93 1st then top off with E-85 so I didn't have to drive with a crazy high mix.
At the current level (around 14%), I've seen no change in fuel mileage.
Yep, colder/denser air means less boost to make same power. ECU will adjust.
Quote from: Needmoreboost on November 03, 2013, 07:39:15 AM
Yep, colder/denser air means less boost to make same power. ECU will adjust.
Whats weird is it doesn't seem to be making the same power. Maybe Torque is just full of crap.
Something else I noticed while running E-85
Commanded AFR changed at WOT after being on the corn for a bit.
On 93 it was around 10.5ish.
On the corn (15%) it was between 11 and 11.2
I also noticed the soot on my tailpipes disappeared.
I've run a couple of tanks of 30% e85 mix in my truck as well as made several passes at the track. Fuel mileage was surprisingly no different than straight 93. Track times were faster than other visits but too many variables to give credit to e85.
So it's been almost a month off of the corn. I had some errands to run the other night so my son and I went for a drive. It was 26 degrees out and the car was shutting down briefly every time I punched it at 25. Went and put in Shell 93 then topped off with 3 gallons of E-85...went for a drive.
Shutdown issue stopped instantly and for the first time in almost a month, WTQ in the 300's....334 to be exact. And well into the 300's ever since. Everything looks good in the logs and with 14+% ethanol (95 octane) FRP was still over 2600PSI. The car has been feeling doggy but that is gone, throttle response is noticeably improved.
In short Torque Pro is showing over 30 WTQ increase just by adding E-85
Next fill up I will bump it up to 20% and report back.
Question on your E-85.... Do you know it is actually 85% Ethanol or might it be a winter blend that is in the 60% range?
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on November 30, 2013, 02:43:46 PM
Question on your E-85.... Do you know it is actually 85% Ethanol or might it be a winter blend that is in the 60% range?
No, I do not know. The pump isn't marked any differently than it was before. Good question though and I will ask the next time I am there. Doubtful I will get any help from the attendants though.
http://green.autoblog.com/2007/02/27/when-is-e85-not-85-percent-ethanol-when-its-e70-with-an-e85-st/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2007/02/27/when-is-e85-not-85-percent-ethanol-when-its-e70-with-an-e85-st/)
So if this article is correct, it looks like E-70 is whats going in now. Thanks for the heads up I hadn't considered this.
This whole labeling issue isn't very consumer friendly...
Unfortunately or fortunately, I don't have issues with E-85 as I have yet to find any in Florida, at least locally.
When in Iowa, many stations have it, but it's SUMMER! I ran a mix (1/4 E-85-3/4 93 E-10) once at the strip this fall, but hard to tell it's effect as I had installed downpipes and Strip was only showing 1/8 mi info, even though it's a 1/4 mi strip. I saw a .1-.2 lowering of my times in 1/8 mi from Torrie's 93 basic canned tune, which in 1/4 several years ago, produced 13.5's. (2 bar sensor -NO spray) Also had some wheel hop on several runs using my 18"( Michelin Pilot Super Sports, which are quite worn, but the first time at strip with them - 70 deg temps. Hooked up best and best times were with T/C on... (this has happened before as T/C in Flex cannot be completely turned off.).
According to this MSDS sheet from Speedway, it appears they use 75-85% alcohol content.
http://www.speedway.com/MSDSList/0137SPE012.pdf (http://www.speedway.com/MSDSList/0137SPE012.pdf)
http://www.fsrmotorsports.com/tuning-by-fsr/34-tuning/126-e85-and-what-you-need-to-know-about-flex-fuel (http://www.fsrmotorsports.com/tuning-by-fsr/34-tuning/126-e85-and-what-you-need-to-know-about-flex-fuel)
Recently I bumped up the E-85 to almost 5 gallons which yielded me a some new peak power #'s according to Torque.
Keep in mind this blast was going up a slight grade up the on ramp.
359.8 WHP
340.5 WTQ
FRP 2650
BST 10PSI
I did notice about a 15 % drop in fuel economy pushing from 4 to 5.
At this level I am at about 18.4% ethanol, 96.2 octane
LTFTs were also up near 20% still no CEL.
Here's a paper written about E-85 blends.
Seems to match up pretty well with my experiences so far.
http://aoatools.aua.gr/pilotec/files/bibliography/Effect%20of%20ethanol%E2%80%93unleaded%20gasoline%20%28Al-Hasan%29-0118990848/Effect%20of%20ethanol%E2%80%93unleaded%20gasoline%20%28Al-Hasan%29.pdf (http://aoatools.aua.gr/pilotec/files/bibliography/Effect%20of%20ethanol%E2%80%93unleaded%20gasoline%20%28Al-Hasan%29-0118990848/Effect%20of%20ethanol%E2%80%93unleaded%20gasoline%20%28Al-Hasan%29.pdf)
Be curious as to how accurate Torque is on the power numbers compared to a Dyno
Quote from: Josephm on February 06, 2014, 08:08:18 PM
Be curious as to how accurate Torque is on the power numbers compared to a Dyno
Well my suspicion is the numbers are high.
What is interesting is how my peak numbers have continued to increase every time I've increased the blend, and Torque's consistency before adding E-85....showing power spot on with stock SHO dynos.
Keep in mind I don't get this power all of the time. And I can tell you when it happens, the car feels STRONG. When that last peak reading occurred I knew before I looked at the gauge because the car was a handful...Oh how I wish the strip was open.
So I went and put 5 gallons in tonight. Then I realized I screwed up using the calculator.
At 5 gallons, with my previous corrected percentage, I am currently at 23.5%.
Will report back on my findings.
You guys are adding e85 to 93 with the stock fuel system right ?
what is the ratio of 93 gallons to E5 gallons ?
Wouldn't mind to tinker with this a bit, but wondering if it's safe if not datalogging ?
are the benefits only temporary like the ECU will eventually throttle the power benefits back until you return to just 93 only for a bit ?
I would not personally play with E85 unless i could monitor fuel pressure; Each car will act different fuel pressure wise considering the blend could be different; As for how long it is beneficial, i do not know.
cool seems like a nice / easy way to pick up some added power. I guess the ECU recognizes the added octane and adds more timing for it. Is that where the added power comes from ? how do I log with an iphone5 ? I already have concerns about my FRP with my LMS tune due to high rpm hesitations. Mainly with hard downshifts, but I don't know what to do about it, or confirm that's whats going on.
Yes added octane add's more power. Logging with the iphone is not supported as far as i know. Torque is a adroid only.
Quote from: 68_GT on February 09, 2014, 10:11:22 AM
You guys are adding e85 to 93 with the stock fuel system right ?
what is the ratio of 93 gallons to E5 gallons ?
Wouldn't mind to tinker with this a bit, but wondering if it's safe if not datalogging ?
are the benefits only temporary like the ECU will eventually throttle the power benefits back until you return to just 93 only for a bit ?
You got me wondering now, any ill-effects of adding a single gallon of E85 and topping off with 93? Any performance benefits worth the hassle of a single/couple gallons in the stock system?
Your fuel already comes with 10% of E in it. Use the calculator on page 1, and you can figure out what Octane you would get based upon how much E you use.
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 11:22:29 AM
Yes added octane add's more power. Logging with the iphone is not supported as far as i know. Torque is a adroid only.
How the ECU recognizes it and adds more timing right ? I mean addded octane alone doen't just increase power output, and with a custom tune (LMS in my case) isn't the timing locked in ? or can the ECU still add more if the octane level permits ? How does it know / why would it want to add more power ?
My 3 year old has a Nabi II (Android powered kids tablet) will it work on that lol eveything else I have is Apple !
I would speak with LMS first before you think about adding E85 of any mix. But Yes, the added octane would allow the ECU to advance the timing, and the added octane will get rid of any KR you have in the upper RPM's
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 11:46:21 AM
I would speak with LMS first before you think about adding E85 of any mix. But Yes, the added octane would allow the ECU to advance the timing, and the added octane will get rid of any KR you have in the upper RPM's
KR ? Knock ??
Knock retard- Pulls timing to compensate for knock to save engine
Quote from: 68_GT on February 09, 2014, 11:31:10 AM
My 3 year old has a Nabi II (Android powered kids tablet) will it work on that lol eveything else I have is Apple !
It'll work but MAY be a little sluggish since it has a low end processor.
Hi All
Ran A 50% e85 TO 50% 91octane gasoline in my 2011 F150 with mild tune for over 80,000 miles with no issues, no MIL lamp etc.
LTFT was always in the high teens
Just installed the latest tune from LMS in my 2013 SHO with PP
It is the 93 octane V7 tune.
really woke it up verses the stock calibration
have not tried any E85 yet but plan to try about 25-30% on first try & see how it responds
do not have a data logger & merely use a laptop based Scan tool interface
will try to check LTFT after the mix is installed
Mr Torrie of Unleashed Tuning has confirmed that he is already tuning the 2.0 ecoboost with up to 30% e85. He said 30% is the threshold before we start having fueling issues. You can check out our dialogue over in his vendor section.
I do find it interesting that he is able to tune the 2013's with E85, yet not have the fueling issue that others are experiencing. E85 of course would add to the issue....if there actually was an issue.
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 10:36:20 AM
I would not personally play with E85 unless i could monitor fuel pressure; Each car will act different fuel pressure wise considering the blend could be different; As for how long it is beneficial, i do not know.
You can use torque to monitor FRP. That and the ethanol calculator can also help you figure out your blend % and keep it there.
Keep in mind my experience is only with the 2013 that has different LPFP.
My suspicion is you will run out of fuel before a 2013 would, so proceed with caution and logging.
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 11:29:52 AM
Your fuel already comes with 10% of E in it. Use the calculator on page 1, and you can figure out what Octane you would get based upon how much E you use.
I for one am quite happy that we here in OK can easily get gas with NO ethanol in it.
Here's a primer on current flex fuel tech in modern vehicles...
http://www.siucautomotive.com/presentations/flexfuel.pdf (http://www.siucautomotive.com/presentations/flexfuel.pdf)
Great read. Thanks!
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 10:36:20 AM
I would not personally play with E85 unless i could monitor fuel pressure; Each car will act different fuel pressure wise considering the blend could be different; As for how long it is beneficial, i do not know.
Look for the MSDS sheet of the brand you are using.
Speedway is 75% winter blend, 85% summer.
On the ride home tonight, the Big Girl rewarded me with a new peak torque reading...
353.7
FRP hit 2670 on that blast.
Boost @ 12PSI
She was very strong tonight, every WOT was well into the 300's, HP and torque.
Nice!
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on February 15, 2014, 09:28:18 PM
On the ride home tonight, the Big Girl rewarded me with a new peak torque reading...
353.7
FRP hit 2670 on that blast.
Boost @ 12PSI
She was very strong tonight, every WOT was well into the 300's, HP and torque.
Wait. what? Did you swap injectors to run E85??
Quote from: QuickSilver on February 15, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on February 15, 2014, 09:28:18 PM
On the ride home tonight, the Big Girl rewarded me with a new peak torque reading...
353.7
FRP hit 2670 on that blast.
Boost @ 12PSI
She was very strong tonight, every WOT was well into the 300's, HP and torque.
Wait. what? Did you swap injectors to run E85??
Nope.
2013+ fuel system is a little beefier to begin with.
Hits AFRs just fine and FRP is still outstanding.
Lots of info in this thread if you're interested.
Quote from: 68_GT on February 09, 2014, 10:41:12 AM
cool seems like a nice / easy way to pick up some added power. I guess the ECU recognizes the added octane and adds more timing for it. Is that where the added power comes from ? how do I log with an iphone5 ? I already have concerns about my FRP with my LMS tune due to high rpm hesitations. Mainly with hard downshifts, but I don't know what to do about it, or confirm that's whats going on.
DO NOT ADD E-85 IF YOU ARE ALREADY FRP CHALLENGED!
You need to get some data toys and log that FRP ASAP.
You should also cruise over to the unleashed vendor area and check out what Mr. Torrie's tune belted out on
91 octane. (hint...it doesn't run out of fuel)
It is a very enlightening thread.
I figured out how to use the graphing function in Torque, but I can't figure out how to get it to use two axis so I can compare FRP to boost, RPM, ETC. Whenever I choose FRP, the axis 2 option disappears. I will inquire with the Torque developer about this.
But since the graphing allows me to watch for dropouts I decided to push ahead. I figure I will keep pushing till I get a CEL or i see FRP fall.
I went and put in 6 gallons of E-85 and 11.24 of shell.
Usually I top off while the car runs but now that I understand Ford's "deductive refueling logic" I shut it down so I could watch what went on with fuel trims on restart.
Now I'm at E-29, 97.5 octane.
My peak FRP was down a bit at 2400.
Graphing showed a perfectly linear line, none of the dropouts that we've seen with the fuel challenged SHOs.
Get this.....28 degrees of timing advance @ WOT. I've never seen over 25 before.
Fuel trims were a little wild at first but within 5 minutes all was well. You would never know about crazy trims as the car ran perfectly while it made its adjustments. Based on what I saw this "deductive refueling logic" is functional in our (2013) cars from the factory. The description of how it works matches with my experiences exactly.
OK, so I am a little late to the data logging game... That and I'm super old school, analog gauges on all my other cars... I've been doing hardware upgrades (exhaust DP's, IC next) but I did knuckle down and ordered the Nexus 7 and a mount for it, I'll be logging by later this week. Do I need a Bluetooth adaptor or? I'd love to mix in a few gallons of E85, 97 octaine sounds sweet 8)
Learning as I go ... I'm a little confused on on the E85 thing I've been reading up on it and have changed my mind and decided to give it a try .... especially at $2.69 a gallon . Last night before I installed the 3 Bar , t-stat and plugs I filled to a little over 3/4 with 91 . This morning after I loaded Torries 91 Tune I drove to a Kum n Go gas station that has E85 and topped it off with 4 gallons of E85. I only live about 3 miles from it.
Some posts are saying don't use E85 in the 13 SHO and others are Nuts over it.
The fuel inlet shows E85/20 so I'm thinking go for it , especially with it blended with 91 to raise the octane.
I have Torries 93 tune as well just not loaded ...
I'm not using Torque Pro yet ... waiting on my MX to get here .
Work with torrie to get some good data logs to make sure you're not running out of fuel, that's your only concern, E85 takes 30% more fuel than regular gas and you're close to the limit of the stock fuel system with a tune already.
Hopefully, having a 2013 will work in his favor and give him some headroom over the 2010-12. Torrie probably already knows, wink wink.
Quote from: SHOdded on March 02, 2014, 01:52:49 AM
Hopefully, having a 2013 will work in his favor and give him some headroom over the 2010-12. Torrie probably already knows, wink wink.
That's what I was thinking as I have read several posts on the forum stating that the fuel delivery system on the13+ is a little beefier.
I don't want to mess with this too much until my MX comes in so I can run Torque Pro.
What should I be monitoring ?
I'll send Torrie an email and ask him what he has for an E85 blend .
Eventually my build plan will necessitate a modified pump system , possibly the one that 4DR has .
As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.
He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 02, 2014, 09:44:43 PM
As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.
He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.
Thank you FoMoCoSHO , I am waiting for a reply from Torrie about this . I expect to hear from him tomorrow .
What Tune do you normally run ?
Quote from: SwampRat on March 02, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 02, 2014, 09:44:43 PM
As much as I've been impressed by E-85 in my SHO, i would not use this tuned with out the guidance of Torrie.
He has indicated that 30% is the max but each car is different...so proceed with caution till you can generate some logs.
Thank you FoMoCoSHO , I am waiting for a reply from Torrie about this . I expect to hear from him tomorrow .
What Tune do you normally run ?
I am untuned so my fuel requirement is definitely less than yours.
Untuned at E-29%, I've had no issues which I believe is due to the beefier LPFP in the 2013's.
As soon as my cutout returns from PPE I will be using Mr Torrie for a datalog tune with E-85.
Just take it easy till he gets you tweaked and you should be safe.
I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 03, 2014, 01:06:54 AM
I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.
When my MX OBDII adapter gets here Sometime this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .
Hey 4DR, I've read that the EB uses Bosch fuel injection parts.
http://www.bosch-automotivetechnology.com/media/en/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/de_5/Bosch_di_folder.pdf (http://www.bosch-automotivetechnology.com/media/en/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/de_5/Bosch_di_folder.pdf)
Is any of this in our cars that you know of?
Because the specs about MAX pressures, types of fuel, etc is quite interesting.
This stuff will support 2900PSI and "worldwide qualities" fuel.
Apparently the Motronic ECU has torque based programming also
"Torque is used as the key criterion for implementing all
requirements. According to this criterion, the air-fuel
ratio is adjusted in such a way that the demanded
torque is provided as economically and cleanly as
possible. It also allows active driving safety systems
such as traction control and ESP® to intervene in the
engine torque.
Motronic can be used to control internal-combustion
engines
running on gasoline (port fuel or direct injec
-
tion), diesel, natural gas (CNG, liquid gas) or ethanol
as well as hybrid drives. Standardized communication
interfaces and data formats support networking with
all vehicle systems which influence the drivetrain. "
Quote from: SwampRat on March 03, 2014, 01:21:37 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 03, 2014, 01:06:54 AM
I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.
When my MX OBDII adapter gets here Sometime this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .
I think Torque calculates AFR indirectly for our cars (yes even with wide band) rather than measuring it. The best we've got, but perhaps not good enough... dunno
Quote from: BiGMaC on March 14, 2014, 01:47:14 AM
Quote from: SwampRat on March 03, 2014, 01:21:37 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 03, 2014, 01:06:54 AM
I would love to see your AFR, FRP, and fuel trims with the current tune.
When my MX OBDII adapter gets here Sometime this week I'll be on a learning curve with Torque and I'll post it .
I think Torque calculates AFR indirectly for our cars (yes even with wide band) rather than measuring it. The best we've got, but perhaps not good enough... dunno
Torque takes the lambda measurement and then applies stoich calculations based off of settings in the profile of your vehicle. You can choose your gas type. I wish I could just see lambda, I'd rather see that due to fuel mixing but since they're calculating off of lambda as long as you know the numbers you're expecting you're good.
Another explanation:
The best ratio for gas mixture is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel.
The best ratio for e85 mixture is 9.8 parts air to 1 part fuel.
The O2 sensor does not know how much air or fuel you started with. It only knows oxygen levels left in the spent charge. The O2 sensor reports in terms of lambda. If the lambda value is 1.0, the fuel is burned optimally, and started with the right mix. Whether you start with gas at 14.7:1 or e85 at 9.8:1, the lambda will be the same at the O2 sensor.
When you see a value reported from a wideband, the value is typically converted to a gas equivalent AFR. Some widebands (like the PLX) will let you change the display and show lambda, or show ethanol-equivalent AFR's. So, let's say your wideband is set to show gas equivalent AFR, but you are running e85. Cruising around, the display will show 14.7:1. This means the lambda is 1.0, and in reality your e85 mix is 9.8:1. When you go WOT, the wideband display shows 11.76:1. This means your lambda is .80, and if you are running e85, the actual mix was 7.84:1.
More info:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/1307_wideband_oxygen_sensor/ (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/1307_wideband_oxygen_sensor/)
This table is what is important notice the Lambda of max power rich and lean of the various fuels. It varies but I personally tune for around .80 Lambda and then add fuel if we see knock. Around here it's very easy to knock on 91 octane so richer is better to an extent. With E85 or E85 mixing the ethanol heat removing properties helps immensely to stop knock. This is why both my Flex and V are running around at approximately 26-28 degrees of timing at WOT, can't even consider that on gas and meth injection.
Air/Fuel (A/F) Ratios of Common Fuels
| Fuel | A/F | Lambda (λ) |
| Pure Gasoline Stoichiometric | 14.7 | 1.000 |
| Pure Gasoline Max Power Rich | 12.5 | 0.8503 |
| Pure Gasoline Max Power Lean | 13.23 | 0.900 |
| E10 Stoichiometric | 14.08 | 1.000 |
| E10 Max Power Rich | 12.0 | 0.8523 |
| E10 Max Power Lean | 12.7008 | 0.9020 |
| E15 Stoichiometric | 13.79 | 1.000 |
| E15 Max Power Rich | 11.75 | 0.8521 |
| E15 Max Power Lean | 12.4362 | 0.9018 |
| E85 Stoichiometric | 9.765 | 1.000 |
| E85 Max Power Rich | 6.975 | 0.7143 |
| E85 Max Power Lean | 8.469 | 0.8673 |
| Ethanol Stoichiometric | 9.0078 | 1.000 |
| Ethanol Max Power Rich | 6.429 | 0.7137 |
| Ethanol Max Power Lean | 7.8 | 0.8659 |
| Methanol Stoichiometric | 6.45 | 1.000 |
| Methanol Max Power Rich | 4.0 | 0.620 |
| Propane Stoichiometric | 15.7 | 1.000 |
| Propane Max Power Rich | 13.18 | 0.8395 |
Thanks Mike.... Excellent write-up on AFR measurement methodology for folks like me who needed a primer. :bigthanx:
For the purposes of this thread, please refer to pg 62.
There is a ton of other info as well.
Enjoy!
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf)
Hey 4dr, there is a specific section in there for the ECO 3.5 fuel system (Pg 158)
My research indicates that the Bosch fuel system we have will support 2900 PSI at the rail(The rail sensor does 3770PSI!)
The way I read this, the only thing keeping us from increasing FPR is tuning.
I'm also thinking along with the 2013 LPFP change, our programming may have changed also which could be why I have so much rail pressure unlike gen 4.1
I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 16, 2014, 03:24:28 PM
For the purposes of this thread, please refer to pg 62 and 158.
There is a ton of other info as well.
Enjoy!
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf)
Just for fun, I bumped my blend up to 30%.
Hopefully I can get to the track this week and see if it has any positive effect on my 1/4 times.
Can I just say that E85 is not awesome in the long-term, because the fuel is made up of our food? Ethanol fuel comes from corn. Have you priced corn lately?!? Just sayin'.
Quote from: Lanson on May 26, 2014, 02:24:12 PM
Can I just say that E85 is not awesome in the long-term, because the fuel is made up of our food? Ethanol fuel comes from corn. Have you priced corn lately?!? Just sayin'.
I have posted my views about this. I am sympathetic to this position but the fact of the matter is all food is going up, E-85 makes a great scapegoat for bad economic policies across the board.
Hopefully E-85 will evolve to the point we can manufacture cellulosic ethanol and be able to use all forms of plant
waste to make it.
A mid gap solution would be to use hemp, but that's a whole other discussion.
I would very much like the dream envisioned in the Back To The Future movies to come true. Although many, many successful experiments have been conducted with biodiesel type fuels, they have a long way to go to see the light of day in significant production.
Besides, farmers will grow what they will get paid for. One crop replaces another as the economy dictates. I am just glad we have not gotten to the Soylent Green reality for fuel yet. Compared to that, ethanol from corn is easily acceptable.
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/04/09/ford-makes-a-case-for-ethanol-and-methanol-blends/ (http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/04/09/ford-makes-a-case-for-ethanol-and-methanol-blends/)
I decided to throw 3 gallons of E85 in with E0 91. That put me to E13 and 93 octane. The car feels stronger with less hesitation vs 91 octane. I'm definitely going to get an Unleashed tune now and tune for E30 since I have E85 all around me. E30 will get me 96 octane and will be much cheaper than the 1 gas station that sells 93 octane!
Thanks for this thread!
Quote from: 92BlackGT on July 13, 2015, 07:08:08 AM
I decided to throw 3 gallons of E85 in with E0 91. That put me to E13 and 93 octane. The car feels stronger with less hesitation vs 91 octane. I'm definitely going to get an Unleashed tune now and tune for E30 since I have E85 all around me. E30 will get me 96 octane and will be much cheaper than the 1 gas station that sells 93 octane!
Thanks for this thread!
Actually your effective octane is much higher.....
Direct injection is like steroids for E85.
Oh, well even better
If I threw in a gallon or two of E-85 into my 2014 with out being tuned for it. Is there any benefit?
Quote from: WickedSHO on July 14, 2015, 11:43:53 AM
If I threw in a gallon or two of E-85 into my 2014 with out being tuned for it. Is there any benefit?
Yes definitely...I am doing that with my untuned 2013 right now and it definitely helps with acceleration, overall responsiveness. The knock gauge indicates the car is a lot more willing to add timing to back it up with actual data. FoMoCoSHO posted earlier he picked up like .4 in the quarter just blending E-85...
Just remember to add a fuel additive that lubricates the system every few fillups.
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on July 14, 2015, 12:27:59 PM
Just remember to add a fuel additive that lubricates the system every few fillups.
Rich
What do you recommend?
Quote from: SHOnUup on July 14, 2015, 12:27:59 PM
Just remember to add a fuel additive that lubricates the system every few fillups.
Rich
E85 inherently has lubricants built in and combined with a top tier fuel you will be fine. If you don't run top tier fuel it is definitely something to consider though as no E85 is top tier so I consider their add packs suspect
I'm curious about archoil as it is a friction modifier which may or may not have positive effects for us corn addicts....
One last question.....I usually fill up once I get to about half tank, just a habit I have formed.
Any caution I should use if I add 1 gallon at half everytime I fill up?
Quote from: WickedSHO on July 14, 2015, 02:31:03 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on July 14, 2015, 12:27:59 PM
Just remember to add a fuel additive that lubricates the system every few fillups.
Rich
What do you recommend?
I've been using MMO (marvel mystery oil)...once every 3rd or 4th fill it gets 4 ounces of the MMO.
If our fuel system was designed for ethonal I wouldn't worry, but it's not. I swear it quiets the ticking from the cam driven fuel system.
Only thing I make sure to do when filling up, put the corn in first so it's mixed up some by the addition of the regular fuel.
Rich
Our Bosch system components are e85 rated. In fact the twin force prototype ran on and was rated for e85.
Looking at our components vs bosch's flex fuel "system" the only difference seems to be ecm programming and a smaller fuel rail which I assume helps keep frp up.
The one part I've had a hard time referencing is the lpfp. I doubt they'd use the entire Bosch system minus the low pressure pump but then again, its Ford.
That being said, a top tier fuel should keep you in good shape. I've ran blends from 10 % to absurd and everything is good. No noise, no pump performance degradation, nothing. The 2013 saw over 25k of various e usage.
Now that I've said that my hpfp will probably explode and rip a hole in the space -time continuim....lol.
Next on my list of chemicals to play with is Archoil.....maybe a comparo with the MMO is in order, haven't used that stuff in a loooooong time.
An article by Hot Rod in 2006 on running E85 in carbureted engines, but covers the technical reasons why:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0611-e85-ethanol-fuel-test/ (http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0611-e85-ethanol-fuel-test/)